Well, both your examples are a comparison of the remake against the original rather than the Compilation, so I would think either here or The Cesspool would be appropriate for those.Just to clarify, what if you are comparing remake material against the compilation material to strengthen the remake argument? Does that go here or in the Remake + Compilation LTD topic?
IE, in the Remake when Aerith asks if Tifa is a girlfriend, Cloud gives a vehement 'No,' whereas in the OG you could say 'Yeah that's right.'
Or how Cloud automatically gives Tifa the flower this time, with no option to give it to Marlene.
My assumption is that this sort of thing would belong to the other topic, but I want to be sure.
If you count the 'optional' jump off the train in time, Cloud already has enough affection points for the HA Highwind scene.A) Must give her the flower (previously optional and granted +5 affection boost)
B) Must have the drink and flirting scene whether you want to refuse or not (previously optional and granted +5 affection boost)
C) Forced to remember and get angry about promise at well with Tifa. In the OG, when she asks you about 'leaving your childhood friend,' you could either give an angry response ("How could you say that!") or an uncaring response ("....Sorry.") The angry response grants +5 affection boost with Tifa.
D) Some light flirting in doing her side quests and the no longer optional drink
E) Forced to grab her hand/catch/hold her several times. If you beat the robots on the train before the timer runs out, you go for a tumble through 'Corkscrew Tunnel' in a tropey romantic tension scene. This is technically still 'optional,' but in OG getting through the train with time to spare granted a +5 Tifa affection boost. And that is illustrated with this scene.
F) Has more time as a playable character than any other character besides Cloud. Wasn't Aerith in the party the longest in Midgar in OG? I guess that's debatable.
G) Has the same odds for getting the optional scene as Aerith. In the OG Aerith had an 'affection/date' scene advantage over Tifa. In fact Tifa's is technically easier by virtue of having faster and easier side quests to deal with.
H) While alone with Aerith in CH8, forced into flashback about Tifa. This prompts the "Is Tifa your girlfriend?" dialogue from Aerith, which was in the OG. Cloud gives an vehement 'No' in response (+1 affection boost in OG for Aerith), but Aerith's response has been changed. In the OG upon choosing this response, she responds with 'hehehehe...You don't HAVE to get that upset." In the Remake she replies with "But she's someone special."
I) Aerith calls Zack 'my first love' this time. Whereas in the OG it was 'I liked him for a while.'
J) Aerith asks if Cloud has any war buddies. When he says no, she says 'oh' and sounds disappointed.
K) Aerith's optional scene includes the dialogue "Whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me...Even if you think you have, it's not real." She says this to Cloud- a man who is currently experiencing serious identity issues.
My initial impression was that this game is strongly pro-Tifa. Significantly more than I was expecting, considering she does almost nothing in the OG's Midgar portion. It also feels like she got more additional development than the other characters. Although in fairness, she had more room for that.
If you count the 'optional' jump off the train in time, Cloud already has enough affection points for the HA Highwind scene.
Now, there are a few things here I don't think matter too much. For example, this is a standalone game, with subsequent parts being spread out over a few years time. From both a gameplay and narrative perspective, having one of the characters (Tifa) doing almost nothing for the first 2-3 games only to become relevant for the final game makes no sense.
Additionally, although Tifa's CH14 optional scene is technically easier to get, that is a largely irrelevant gameplay mechanic. By virtue of being in the story earlier, Tifa's quest are easier and faster. From a gameplay perspective, quests get harder and longer as it you get further into the game.
That said, coming up with a Devil's Advocate argument in favor of Aerith (right now) seems difficult, especially if you're comparing against the OG. About the only things I can think of are her optional scene being featured in the end credits, and the 'Hollow' theme song almost certainly represents her and Cloud (by virtue of playing in CH8 church slums). But the end credits feature is kind of weak, and I have already expressed reservations about her optional scene given her dialogue. Ironically, the part of the scene that is featured in the credits is when she drops her "It isn't real" line.
I would be curious what someone completely new to the series thinks, without the bias of the OG or compilation material affecting their view. I have a friend who fits into this category. He finished it a couple days ago and I asked him who he thought the romantic interest was going to be by the game's conclusion. He said at first he was thinking it was going to be Jessie, but by the game's conclusion thinks Tifa...based on the fact they kept being forced to touch (hand grabbing happened in about half of the chapters). But he said he's not confident about that.
He also said he hopes Jessie comes back...so I told him we aren't friends anymore.
I do not think he ever actually realized that himself, though.
From the time he meets her until the day she dies, I do not think he knew he loved her. And after she dies, it is not as if he suddenly realized he was romantically in love with the girl either. It's not a natural train of thought to constantly think about a deceased person "I think I could have been romantically in love with them" when any romance is impossible by virtue of being dead. In addition to his severe identity issues, his traumatic past and the later events of the game, realizing his true identity and love for Tifa, and an obsession with defeating Sephiroth.
Even after said events, it's kind of a weird topic for him to think about. Beginning a life with Tifa and the kids for over a year, building a home, starting a busy job, and later the events of AC where the only emotion he ever associates with Aerith is guilt...I just can't imagine him sitting down one day and thinking about someone who died a long time ago as a girl he could have possibly been romantically interested in. It's just not a natural thought process for someone in those unique circumstances to think about someone romantically who has passed.
Until the day he dies, I'm not sure if he will ever realize it himself. That almost feels like a tragedy itself, in a way.
-Cloud and Aerith laughing on the rooftop
This ties a lot into the 'first love' line I mentioned, which I feel is a rather noteworthy change.-Cloud asking if Aerith was serious with Zack
-Aerith saying she wasn’t serious with Zack
True but they also removed a Tifa affection boost moment. In the OG when she asks how you slept, you could say "Next to you, who wouldn't?" Which is basically flirting openly with her.-Marlene saying “I bet she likes you!” and Cloud having the option to say “Let’s hope so.”
I actually don't remember Cloud saying the second part? That was Aerith, right?-”I’m your bodyguard, right?” “the deal was for one date, right?”
I'm kind of wondering if Cloud's traumatic past has left him emotionally stunted, and he really doesn't know how to express love. Between Tifa, Aerith, and Jessie, whenever things start getting intimate he starts to clam up. I don't think the poor lad knows what to do with himself in these situations.
The laughing would incline the viewer to see it as two people instantly hitting it off sure. It's not irrelevant, but still kind of weak imo.
For a similar comparison, when Cloud has the flashback about his mom, it goes almost entirely the same as the OG scene. The difference is when his Mom tells him that 'an older girl would suit you better,' Cloud just sits there like a lump this time and the scene ends. In the OG he actually replies with a "Not interested" line...because he was interested in the girl younger than him who lived next door.
Also a change that is not irrelevant, but kind of weak.
This ties a lot into the 'first love' line I mentioned, which I feel is a rather noteworthy change.
Although I will say in the OG's case, one could consider her response here that it was simply denial on her part based on the Gongaga event with Zacks parents.
True but they also removed a Tifa affection boost moment. In the OG when she asks how you slept, you could say "Next to you, who wouldn't?" Which is basically flirting openly with her.
I took that to being changed in other capacities however. Such as flirting with her over the drink, and some casual/light moments in doing her side quests.
I actually don't remember Cloud saying the second part? That was Aerith, right?
Ah, the age-old debate between a walking corpse (Aerith) and a walking trope (Tifa). If only there were a viable third option that wasn't either. The trope being the old "childhood friends must always become lovers no exceptions allowed" thing. You'd think they could have come up with something a bit more imaginative in that regard.