SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

billy22

Pro Adventurer
#2
Just to clarify, what if you are comparing remake material against the compilation material to strengthen the remake argument? Does that go here or in the Remake + Compilation LTD topic?

IE, in the Remake when Aerith asks if Tifa is a girlfriend, Cloud gives a vehement 'No,' whereas in the OG you could say 'Yeah that's right.'
Or how Cloud automatically gives Tifa the flower this time, with no option to give it to Marlene.

My assumption is that this sort of thing would belong to the other topic, but I want to be sure.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#4
Just to clarify, what if you are comparing remake material against the compilation material to strengthen the remake argument? Does that go here or in the Remake + Compilation LTD topic?

IE, in the Remake when Aerith asks if Tifa is a girlfriend, Cloud gives a vehement 'No,' whereas in the OG you could say 'Yeah that's right.'
Or how Cloud automatically gives Tifa the flower this time, with no option to give it to Marlene.

My assumption is that this sort of thing would belong to the other topic, but I want to be sure.
Well, both your examples are a comparison of the remake against the original rather than the Compilation, so I would think either here or The Cesspool would be appropriate for those.

As for comparing the remake against the Compilation (for whatever reason), um, I guess the other thread would be more appropriate if you were starting that line of analysis unprompted.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
#8
I'm 101% certain Aerith will die.

I can feel it in my bone marrows. I can hear it from the whispers in the wind.

And I'm a simple man. I just always use the process of elimination during multiple choice exams. I don't like it when things are complicated. (probably why I dislike the remake ending---too convoluted for my liking)
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
#9
This seems like the correct place for this. I LOVE how they handled the LTD in the remake!

I'm a big Cloti, but found myself genuinely adoring the Cloud and Aerith scenes, and all of the Tifa and Aerith scenes!

I haven't changed my mind on preferring Cloud and Tifa together in the end, but I seriously appreciated the buildup of the story of Cloud and Tifa having unresolved/unspoken feelings, Cloud falling for Aerith, and everything getting complicated.

In my opinion (and you are welcome to feel very differently about it!) that is exactly how the story should play out and I think they did such a good job with it!
 
#10
The LTD is one of the things I am confident SE will continue to handle well, since they did such a great job with it in Part 1.

In the OG, Aeris' close relationship with the other members of Avalanche was something we had to create in our imagination, since we didn't see a huge amount of it on screen. This time around, she has already built a close relationship with Tifa as well as Cloud, and I am sure her relationships with all the other party members will be fully developed. When she dies, we will really feel and see that she leaves a huge hole in everyone's heart, not just Cloud's.
 

billy22

Pro Adventurer
#11
My initial impression was that this game is strongly pro-Tifa. Significantly more than I was expecting, considering she does almost nothing in the OG's Midgar portion. It also feels like she got more additional development than the other characters. Although in fairness, she had more room for that.

For example:

A) Must give her the flower (previously optional and granted +5 affection boost)

B) Must have the drink and flirting scene whether you want to refuse or not (previously optional and granted +5 affection boost)

C) Forced to remember and get angry about promise at well with Tifa. In the OG, when she asks you about 'leaving your childhood friend,' you could either give an angry response ("How could you say that!") or an uncaring response ("....Sorry.") The angry response grants +5 affection boost with Tifa.

D) Some light flirting in doing her side quests and the no longer optional drink

E) Forced to grab her hand/catch/hold her several times. If you beat the robots on the train before the timer runs out, you go for a tumble through 'Corkscrew Tunnel' in a tropey romantic tension scene. This is technically still 'optional,' but in OG getting through the train with time to spare granted a +5 Tifa affection boost. And that is illustrated with this scene.

F) Has more time as a playable character than any other character besides Cloud. Wasn't Aerith in the party the longest in Midgar in OG? I guess that's debatable.

G) Has the same odds for getting the optional scene as Aerith. In the OG Aerith had an 'affection/date' scene advantage over Tifa. In fact Tifa's is technically easier by virtue of having faster and easier side quests to deal with.

H) While alone with Aerith in CH8, forced into flashback about Tifa. This prompts the "Is Tifa your girlfriend?" dialogue from Aerith, which was in the OG. Cloud gives an vehement 'No' in response (+1 affection boost in OG for Aerith), but Aerith's response has been changed. In the OG upon choosing this response, she responds with 'hehehehe...You don't HAVE to get that upset." In the Remake she replies with "But she's someone special."

I) Aerith calls Zack 'my first love' this time. Whereas in the OG it was 'I liked him for a while.'

J) Aerith asks if Cloud has any war buddies. When he says no, she says 'oh' and sounds disappointed.

K) Aerith's optional scene includes the dialogue "Whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me...Even if you think you have, it's not real." She says this to Cloud- a man who is currently experiencing serious identity issues.
If you count the 'optional' jump off the train in time, Cloud already has enough affection points for the HA Highwind scene. :mon:

Now, there are a few things here I don't think matter too much. For example, this is a standalone game, with subsequent parts being spread out over a few years time. From both a gameplay and narrative perspective, having one of the characters (Tifa) doing almost nothing for the first 2-3 games only to become relevant for the final game makes no sense.

Additionally, although Tifa's CH14 optional scene is technically easier to get, that is a largely irrelevant gameplay mechanic. By virtue of being in the story earlier, Tifa's quest are easier and faster. From a gameplay perspective, quests get harder and longer as it you get further into the game.

That said, coming up with a Devil's Advocate argument in favor of Aerith (right now) seems difficult, especially if you're comparing against the OG. About the only things I can think of are her optional scene being featured in the end credits, and the 'Hollow' theme song almost certainly represents her and Cloud (by virtue of playing in CH8 church slums). But the end credits feature is kind of weak, and I have already expressed reservations about her optional scene given her dialogue. Ironically, the part of the scene that is featured in the credits is when she drops her "It isn't real" line.

I would be curious what someone completely new to the series thinks, without the bias of the OG or compilation material affecting their view. I have a friend who fits into this category. He finished it a couple days ago and I asked him who he thought the romantic interest was going to be by the game's conclusion. He said at first he was thinking it was going to be Jessie, but by the game's conclusion thinks Tifa...based on the fact they kept being forced to touch (hand grabbing happened in about half of the chapters). But he said he's not confident about that.

He also said he hopes Jessie comes back...so I told him we aren't friends anymore.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
#13
My initial impression was that this game is strongly pro-Tifa. Significantly more than I was expecting, considering she does almost nothing in the OG's Midgar portion. It also feels like she got more additional development than the other characters. Although in fairness, she had more room for that.

For example:

If you count the 'optional' jump off the train in time, Cloud already has enough affection points for the HA Highwind scene. :mon:

Now, there are a few things here I don't think matter too much. For example, this is a standalone game, with subsequent parts being spread out over a few years time. From both a gameplay and narrative perspective, having one of the characters (Tifa) doing almost nothing for the first 2-3 games only to become relevant for the final game makes no sense.

Additionally, although Tifa's CH14 optional scene is technically easier to get, that is a largely irrelevant gameplay mechanic. By virtue of being in the story earlier, Tifa's quest are easier and faster. From a gameplay perspective, quests get harder and longer as it you get further into the game.

That said, coming up with a Devil's Advocate argument in favor of Aerith (right now) seems difficult, especially if you're comparing against the OG. About the only things I can think of are her optional scene being featured in the end credits, and the 'Hollow' theme song almost certainly represents her and Cloud (by virtue of playing in CH8 church slums). But the end credits feature is kind of weak, and I have already expressed reservations about her optional scene given her dialogue. Ironically, the part of the scene that is featured in the credits is when she drops her "It isn't real" line.

I would be curious what someone completely new to the series thinks, without the bias of the OG or compilation material affecting their view. I have a friend who fits into this category. He finished it a couple days ago and I asked him who he thought the romantic interest was going to be by the game's conclusion. He said at first he was thinking it was going to be Jessie, but by the game's conclusion thinks Tifa...based on the fact they kept being forced to touch (hand grabbing happened in about half of the chapters). But he said he's not confident about that.

He also said he hopes Jessie comes back...so I told him we aren't friends anymore.
Oh, I almost forgot to comment on this (great) post!

My first impression when I played the game was this (in relation to favoring Tifa), then I leaned towards a more balanced ground between the two girls, but after this post, I think I'm back to my first impression again lol. Tbh, I was kinda surprised the number of scenes/importance Tifa got in part 01 since Midgar isn't really her arc, but you made a great point regarding the need to make her an important character in all parts so they can work as stand-alone games and as part of the whole remake project.

Also, now that the compilation exists, I think they will try to make things and points as clearly as possible this time, hence (maybe) why this time they decided to build a more stable foundation for Cloti from the very beginning.

Btw, a few people pointed out on twitter that a few CxA scenes were either removed or toned down, such as:

-Cloud and Aerith laughing on the rooftop
-Cloud asking if Aerith was serious with Zack
-Aerith saying she wasn’t serious with Zack
-Marlene saying “I bet she likes you!” and Cloud having the option to say “Let’s hope so.”
-”I’m your bodyguard, right?” “the deal was for one date, right?”

I dunno if this is important or were just removed as a way of balance the whole LTD more idk..
 

Chaoticgumbo

Lv. 25 Adventurer
#14
I do not think he ever actually realized that himself, though.

From the time he meets her until the day she dies, I do not think he knew he loved her. And after she dies, it is not as if he suddenly realized he was romantically in love with the girl either. It's not a natural train of thought to constantly think about a deceased person "I think I could have been romantically in love with them" when any romance is impossible by virtue of being dead. In addition to his severe identity issues, his traumatic past and the later events of the game, realizing his true identity and love for Tifa, and an obsession with defeating Sephiroth.

Even after said events, it's kind of a weird topic for him to think about. Beginning a life with Tifa and the kids for over a year, building a home, starting a busy job, and later the events of AC where the only emotion he ever associates with Aerith is guilt...I just can't imagine him sitting down one day and thinking about someone who died a long time ago as a girl he could have possibly been romantically interested in. It's just not a natural thought process for someone in those unique circumstances to think about someone romantically who has passed.

Until the day he dies, I'm not sure if he will ever realize it himself. That almost feels like a tragedy itself, in a way.
Exactly. When taking everything into account, I just have a hard time seeing Cloud and Aerith that way for the reasons you mentioned. Cloud X Aerith in a vacuum works fine, romantic even in a tragic sense. However when looking at everything together, it doesn’t hold up imo for many reasons including Cloud’s connection to Tifa, him not knowing who he truly is while getting to know Aerith, and Zack himself who is becoming more prominent in the compilations.

And just to give my own personal thoughts on pairings, if it isn’t Cloud X Tifa and Aerith X Zack, then it makes Cloud and Aerith look insincere to their original flames and makes Tifa and Zack look second rate and/or forever alone which they absolutely do not deserve. Everybody loses in that scenario.
 

billy22

Pro Adventurer
#16
-Cloud and Aerith laughing on the rooftop
The laughing would incline the viewer to see it as two people instantly hitting it off sure. It's not irrelevant, but still kind of weak imo.

For a similar comparison, when Cloud has the flashback about his mom, it goes almost entirely the same as the OG scene. The difference is when his Mom tells him that 'an older girl would suit you better,' Cloud just sits there like a lump this time and the scene ends. In the OG he actually replies with a "Not interested" line...because he was interested in the girl younger than him who lived next door.

Also a change that is not irrelevant, but kind of weak.

-Cloud asking if Aerith was serious with Zack
-Aerith saying she wasn’t serious with Zack
This ties a lot into the 'first love' line I mentioned, which I feel is a rather noteworthy change.

Although I will say in the OG's case, one could consider her response here that it was simply denial on her part based on the Gongaga event with Zacks parents.

-Marlene saying “I bet she likes you!” and Cloud having the option to say “Let’s hope so.”
True but they also removed a Tifa affection boost moment. In the OG when she asks how you slept, you could say "Next to you, who wouldn't?" Which is basically flirting openly with her.

I took that to being changed in other capacities however. Such as flirting with her over the drink, and some casual/light moments in doing her side quests.

-”I’m your bodyguard, right?” “the deal was for one date, right?”
I actually don't remember Cloud saying the second part? That was Aerith, right?
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
#18
I'm kind of wondering if Cloud's traumatic past has left him emotionally stunted, and he really doesn't know how to express love. Between Tifa, Aerith, and Jessie, whenever things start getting intimate he starts to clam up. I don't think the poor lad knows what to do with himself in these situations.
This was often my impression of Cloud as well, he's not good at expressing any emotion, and as someone who was an outsider growing up, I imagine expressing something as intimate as love would be extremely difficult. I always took his reserved nature towards Tifa as him not being able to say things, but more expressing stuff through action.

So the scene where he calls Tifa beautiful seriously surprised me. I mean I loved watching it, but it seemed so bold for Cloud to be openly hitting on her.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
#19
The laughing would incline the viewer to see it as two people instantly hitting it off sure. It's not irrelevant, but still kind of weak imo.

For a similar comparison, when Cloud has the flashback about his mom, it goes almost entirely the same as the OG scene. The difference is when his Mom tells him that 'an older girl would suit you better,' Cloud just sits there like a lump this time and the scene ends. In the OG he actually replies with a "Not interested" line...because he was interested in the girl younger than him who lived next door.

Also a change that is not irrelevant, but kind of weak.

This ties a lot into the 'first love' line I mentioned, which I feel is a rather noteworthy change.

Although I will say in the OG's case, one could consider her response here that it was simply denial on her part based on the Gongaga event with Zacks parents.

True but they also removed a Tifa affection boost moment. In the OG when she asks how you slept, you could say "Next to you, who wouldn't?" Which is basically flirting openly with her.

I took that to being changed in other capacities however. Such as flirting with her over the drink, and some casual/light moments in doing her side quests.
You're right! It also makes me wonder how much of it ( that was removed or added) came from the fact that most of the OG plot has been expanded such as with AC/ACC, CC, and so on. For the AerithxZack parts especially, I do wonder if CC has affected how the pairing will be portrayed in the Remake.

I actually don't remember Cloud saying the second part? That was Aerith, right?
Yes! The prison part conversation if I'm not mistaken.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
#21
Ah, the age-old debate between a walking corpse (Aerith) and a walking trope (Tifa). If only there were a viable third option that wasn't either. The trope being the old "childhood friends must always become lovers no exceptions allowed" thing. You'd think they could have come up with something a bit more imaginative in that regard.
 

SailorStarDust

Kept you waiting, huh?
AKA
SSD
#22
Ah, the age-old debate between a walking corpse (Aerith) and a walking trope (Tifa). If only there were a viable third option that wasn't either. The trope being the old "childhood friends must always become lovers no exceptions allowed" thing. You'd think they could have come up with something a bit more imaginative in that regard.
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm? "Childhood friends ending up together" was already a trope in '90's anime, but FF7 wound up turning the idea on its head (one of the games many intentional swerves, similar to how the JPRG Protagonist's love interest is your Party's cute White Mage) since Cloud and Tifa weren't even being childhood friends to begin with when the player reaches the Lifestream event. The payoff there, is assuming one played their cards right to unlock High Affection under the Highwind. (And one can easily get Aerith's Date alongside Tifa High Affection, to clarify: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/130791-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/2385 )

I absolutely love how all 3 Chapter 14 Resolution scenes flow into each other story-wise, on another note. Square knows what they're doin'.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
#23
I was being a little facetious, but the point I was making is that any time two characters know each other from childhood (whether well or not) in stories like this, they always end up together. FFVII didn't bother to change this outcome at all even though they could have. And I don't see how all three 14 scenes can be canon since you can only get one at a time. Therefore, only one of them actually happens. And it would've been nice if they'd have let Jessie have one, too. She liked Cloud as well, and it could've been done as a dream like Aerith's. Only instead of Cloud encouraging his friends, she'd have been encouraging him.

And if SE knew what they were doing, they'd have not made a point of showing Jessie saw the flower without letting her say something about it. And they wouldn't have taken the trio away right when they left us wanting to do more with them. But that's a discussion for another thread, so I won't go into that here.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
#24
Well, at least Aerith is a walking corpse. Jessie, meanwhile, is just a corpse. :mon:

Let's not get too delusional here. Why would Jessie need to have a scene with Cloud in Chapter 14? She already had time with him at the earlier parts of the game, albeit with Biggs and Wedge. What makes her so special to warrant a scene with similar gravitas as Aerith, Tifa and Barret, who---I dunno--- are part of the main, MAIN OG cast? The ones who actually get to be in your party? The ones (plus Yuffie) you actually get to have a gondola date? It wouldn't make sense meta-wise.

Jessie is already fortunate for all the screentime she gets this remake, when she was just extra in the OG. Even if she could possibly be still alive and make a comback in the latter parts, she is just not in the same level of importance as Aerith, Tifa and Barret are, either to Cloud or to the story.

I don't like to sound harsh, but let's get real. Jessie is not a real option.

Edit:

Childhood friends always winning is not true at all. Your Lie In April and Maid-sama comes to mind and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of others where the childhood friend don't end up with the main protagonist. Hell, you can even argue Dragonball does not fall under this trope, what with Bulma being the very first girl Goku meets (so technically she qualifies as his childhood friend), and yet they never ended together despite Bulma expressing interest in him at some point.

The Transfer Student and the Foreign Exchange Student tropes exist as a counter to the Childhood Friend trope after all.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
#25
And yet not this particular trope. The childhood acquaintances were still made to be possible love interests, just as the trope states, instead of that point not being included at all or another alternative given who would've survived for the whole game.
 
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