Mon Dieu je suis a la moitié de l'article, je viens de caler que l'anglais te rajoute du "lovers" pour les fleurs et juste je comprends pas la manœuvre, surtout que c'est considéré comme un win de la part des CAs.
Edit: en fait non, c'était la dernière partie.
I just don't get why localisation would deliberately choose to go against the original intention in this specific case. Why not let Cloud be an awkward dork and lose the author's will in the process. Because I really don't think "standing out in the market" is a good reason in this specific case.
Also I ended up looking up the signification of the yellow lily, and it's not reunion, it's a symbol of healing and well wishing for family, friends and loved ones in general. It's also mainly about expressing friendship more than love. Could have gotten it wrong though.
So several things.
Here in the context of the world the stargazer lily does mean reunion and she says that in Japanese too.
So as I explained to Eerie, many Asian companies' approach to translation is NOT traditional translation. It's localization with emphasis on something called transcreation. Transcreation is the idea that the source material to have the best way to reach the audience should be written in such a way that sounds like it was written in the original language AND culture of the audience. Meaning they don't want it to sound like a translation, they want it to sound like the script was written in English from the beginning. And they want to preserve the same FEELINGS the audience gets in the source material and convey that to the audience of the translation. Meaning if something is a funny joke in Japanese they want it to come across exactly as funny in English.
To do this they can't possibly translate directly. So the go to method is to take the text and rewrite it so sounds like it was naturally written in English. The way they do this is by rewriting sentences in ways that sound like they're originally from the culture of the audience the translation will read. Usually in English this means they change cultural references and concepts in Japanese to AMERICAN ones. And the script is rewritten to achieve this goal. Why it's called transcreation. In this case the writer and the translator are both part of the creation of the script.
This doesn't mean that the goal is to erase the original intentions. It's to make them more magnified, so to speak, for the audience of the translation. So the gist is there always. The meaning isn't different. What changes usually is the way they tell you that meaning and the tone. And this is where nuance often gets lost. And this is where people may start thinking something else was said. Not because of different meaning but because expression of that meaning is different. So basically saying the same thing but in a different way, sometimes with different but similar words. And this affects accuracy because how you say something matters just as much as what you say.
Also rewriting sentences means you sometimes have to split the sentence up or move it around. So you might actually find the meaning across a scene instead of in a line.
My problem with transcreation is not that it changes meaning, because that's not what it does. It's that it changes tone and recontextualizes things so often (which can affect how that meaning comes across) for the sake of keeping the same feeling and audience reaction. It's used a lot and often not just for cultural references, so the result is often very American sounding and any nuances of the original culture are pretty much gone. I have many feelings about transcreation because while I understand why it's done I think it's usually fine to leave things alone and not be so afraid of letting the audience figure things out themselves. I also don't like the idea of erasing concepts and references from other cultures to sound less foreign. But it's something that is now common practice.
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Square Enix is a company that hires localizers who use this method. And they have for years.
For example:
FF14 does this with Koji Fox explaining he used this process for FF16 as well. He explained how FF16 was not written with Japanese in mind but with English in mind as the script. The Japanese was a draft. Then Maehiro the writer basically told him to do whatever he wanted with the script, in his own words "go crazy with it". And at first, he did. He rewrote it completely as that's what was asked of him but then Koji insisted on them working together to go over it and they then worked on it together going back and forth between English and Japanese until it flowed naturally like it was originally English while still keeping the message Maehiro wanted. That's basically the best practice for transcreation.
You notice how fans especially on Twitter are always blaming the translators for changing things behind the creators' backs? That's not what happens.
They need approval to do that. In fact translators that use transcreation are like artists hired for a commission. The artist can't move on with their drawings if the person who commissioned it doesn't like a detail. How they translate then depends on who hired them.
For example, Koji Fox and Kate Cwynar joked about this when he worked on FF14 Shadowbringers. They would finish the script and it would be translated the way the writer Ichikawa liked then Yoshi P the director or Banri Oda the world building lore writer would find something they wanted to add so they had to redo it all over again. Or Yoshi P would be fine with something but Ichikawa felt like what she didn't come across the way she wanted and they'd work together to fix it. And this meant multiple rewrites. It was a collaboration process. This is another example of doing transcreation right.
But again it depends on who hires them. If the person who commissions a drawing doesn't communicate clearly to the artist what they want it affects the work. Same here. Translations made using transcreation work best if everyone is on the same page and working together. Meaning creators should be giving feedback often. Of course, this doesn't always happen.
So there's other square Enix translators who have stated in interviews that they worked together with the development team to come up with ideas. And there's others that have stated that they were for the most part told exactly like Koji was told by Maehiro in FF16 to change things to however they think is best. And often they get little to no feedback by the creator and have to figure it out themselves.
But they all need to be given PERMISSION to do that. So if you see a script with a bunch of changes in it that's not the translator doing whatever they want. That's the creators who gave them that privilege.
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And again it depends on the person who hired them. Does the creator want them to work with minimal feedback or does the creator want to check every detail?
For SE it's mostly a collaborative process. Since Honeywood changed things so most translations are done in Square Enix Headquarters mostly the translators work closely with the creators more often than not. The English localization team is part of Square Enix Japan. Meaning they're not some separate branch like people think. Ben Sabin, also an employee of SEJP, was hired by someone and in order to keep his job whatever they tell him to do is what he does. I know Nomura himself is a stickler for the details and interviews about KH shows he wants the script to keep the same meaning and he does check scripts. So I am sorry to everyone who hates this idea but those translations you don't like had to be approved by someone on the dev team. They have to. Maybe not Nojima approving every word as he has stated several times he doesn't know English but he does need to be involved somehow and there's a team that helps with that. The devs have meetings with localization teams. There's a localization director who is the middle man and helps relay the creators wishes to the team etc.
Sometimes the devs can also say "do whatever you think is best" and the translators will rely more on the editors and Quality Assurance team instead. And this often means several rewrites until everyone is happy.
Also this process is not easy at all. You see the scenes in order because that's the final product. But that's not how translators see it.
When translating it's usually done in pieces and with the scenes completely out of order because they translate what is given to them as scenes are created. Meaning they often have to go back and revise things multiple times or if there's no time they will add something they missed to a later scene. Hence a lot of factors lead to why things seem so different across languages because of the way localization is done.
Now why would they do such a thing? Because THAT is what is considered good localization nowadays and THAT is exactly what the companies are hiring translators to do nowadays. It's considered a way to make their product sound more international and be more well received by the audience.
This is the go to standard now for localization not just in video games but in almost everything. This doesn't mean they throw away all the accuracy. This approach is just considered the best way to express not just meaning but the same feeling to the audience.
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Now for the scene.
There are several things in this scenario happening.
Hanakotoba. The language of flowers in Japanese culture is thought of differently than how we do in English speaking countries. Hanakotoba implies that when you give people flowers you are saying something very specific to them depending on the type of flower you gave them. In this case the flower is your words.
We don't think this way in America; not to that extent. They know the average teenager in the U.S. has no idea that it matters what kind of flower Aerith is giving to Cloud. And when they give the flower to Tifa they won't understand the meaning is supposed to be a romantic reunion. They know that giving flowers is romantic but specifically the emphasis here is about REUNION. So they put that in the sentence so when the teenager gets to the Tifa flower giving scene this meaning doesn't get lost. So yes someone might get the impression from it Aerith is saying Cloud and her are lovers so she gives him a flower. But pay attention and she also says he can give it to his girlfriend when trying to sell it. So is Aerith in English really saying that she literally thinks she and Cloud are reunited lovers right now if she later implies he can give it to a girlfriend?
If fans see it about "wins" then this is also "a win for CT" actually. The translator wanted the audience to be clear that Cloud and Tifa's reunion is romantic. It's also not a normal flower giving scene. It's symbolism of something greater. And Reunion being the theme you're supposed to connect what Aerith said about lovers giving these and think about how this will connect to CT.
So the meaning hasn't changed. In the current scene it looks like it did. But it's the words that differ not the gist. They were trying however to make sure that in a LATER scene the meaning was understood just as well by a American teenager as it would be a Japanese one who saw the flower and knew it was more important than just being something you give your girlfriend.
Transcreated scripts do this all the time. So that's why I'm always telling people you can't analyze these scripts line by line you have to look at the whole thing. Because the way they rewrite it is NOT line by line it's like writing a new script on top of the old one with the same meaning. So if you're missing the meaning in one line you find it in another line or maybe even another scene later.
Hope that's clear.
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Also to address
@MelodicEnigma and
@Eerie posts:
I am pretty sure Aerith's "This isn't about me this is about saving the planet and you." Is NOT about recovering his true self. I don't think that's what the the translator is trying imply at all.
Aerith here is "saving" Cloud from his depression in Advent Children. She's giving him the closure regarding his guilt. "I saved her, she saved me, round and round it goes". This connection is in her resolution also and the line "Whatever happens don't blame yourself." In Japanese she literally says "Guilt be gone."
In OG when Aerith leaves she decides to help Cloud by facing Sephiroth herself "So you don't have a breakdown." It's not her choosing to save the world over him but to save the world for him so he doesn't further get controlled by Sephiroth. She intended to take his place in the fight and fight Sephiroth alone so Cloud doesn't have to.
But we see clearly that didn't work out; she dies and he breaks down anyway. And then she sees her death made things even worse for him because in AC he's feeling guilty over her death, thinking he caused it when leaving was her decision. We also see COWL Aerith in the LS was trying to help Cloud also without having him suffer any more due to Sephiroth. And how can she help him now? By having him not blame himself. This is where that comes from.
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Both Tifa and Aerith in this sense help/save Cloud in different ways. The way Tifa saved him is literally by saving basically his soul, his sense of self and existence. The way Aerith saved him was making sure he continues to be alive (cured from Geostigma, stopping the Meteor), has a Planet to live in, and now she is trying to save him from guilt.
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So basically the translator here was reminding people of the connection between what is happening in this scene and her resolution as well as her connection to Cloud in AC. And they're connecting this line with "Guilt be gone" so that it's extra clear that she's not just giving him the materia to only save the world but she's telling him also to not blame himself. And if you notice giving him agency this time in the situation to help her in this fight where before she ran away without telling him before she died because she didn't want him involved at all.
It's not a different meaning as in Japanese we can get this same conclusion that she's not just saying bye to Cloud in this way for no reason but also to give both of them closure from AC and COLW.
The problem is if you read it line by line it feels like it was added and not in JP. But it is in the JP. Not the word, the concept. She literally says"Guilt be gone" before hugging him, this is what that means. It's said kinda like an incantation of warding off guilt. Something again your average American teenager will not understand so they changed it to "Whatever happens, don't blame yourself" which does not by itself express the same feeling as "Guilt be gone". So my guess is they also added that as "save the world and you" later on so that idea of using the materia as a way to help him this time avoid guilt is still there.
And that's exactly why I said we can't read these types of scripts and lyrics or anything line by line and compare it because of the way transcreation is done. Which is not line by line.
It's more clear to compare the concepts and this concept is in both scenes just moved around.
Disclaimer: sorry this is so long. I decided to address different posts but when you edit you can't multi quote so I did it this way.
Edit: Clarification and typos
More elaboration on transcreation. It's not that the process itself is a bad practice. Like any method it has pros and cons. And to do it right requires a lot of collaboration and back and forth with whoever hired them. That's why the results really depend on who hires these localizers.
) to that of the precedent in her dual motivations in CoLW, where she of course wanted to stop Sephiroth, but also wanted to help Cloud too. It's not uncharacteristic for her to double down, if in this case, to recognize the inherent duality of saving the world, thus saving Cloud. How it works for this scene—it's not reasonable to project this further to something like the Lifestream sequence.
