Thanks System Referendum.

Dawnbreaker · Apr 15, 2016

Just a quick note -- I also voted "no" in error. The poll is a little confusing...

i'll post more later, but honestly, I've got some stuffz to do.

Dawnbreaker · Apr 15, 2016

double-post:

So I read through the thread and here are my thoughts:

Since I don't occupy the debate threads anymore (which is not related to the Thanks, btw), I'm don't personally care about whether you take it from that section, although I still see that as extreme and not addressing the actual situation. Having not seen these hurtful or whatever Thanking situations, I can't say whether a problem exists or is simply an issue with perception.

FYI -- I won't post more if you take the Thanks from the debates section; I'd probably post there less, feeling as if the area has been neutered, for lack of a more delicate word.

I also say that taking the Thanks away from the rest of the forum is totally unfair. No one seems to be able to say this issue occurs outside of the debates forum, so why take it from the entire forum? Just because a couple of people may or may not be abusing it in one section of the forum, does that validate taking it completely away from those that aren't?

I also have to say, with all due respect and in light of the fact that I have not seen said offensive Thanking, that, yes, some people do need to not take this stuff to heart. Sometimes I don't thank someone because I forget; sometimes I don't thank someone simply because I'm lazy. It's (almost, come on, we're all human) never out of spite.

And honestly, I fear we are going down a bad path here by censoring people so completely. Restricting people's freedoms rather than actually addressing the problem at hand is, in my opinion, always trouble.

Ite · Apr 15, 2016

Dawnbreaker said:
Just a quick note -- I also voted "no" in error. The poll is a little confusing...

i'll post more later, but honestly, I've got some stuffz to do.

I just had flashbacks to Prop 8.

Dawnbreaker · Apr 15, 2016

I'm honestly confused. What do you mean?

Claymore · Apr 15, 2016

Mr. Ite said:
I think without thanks we'll be seeing a lot more of this

^This! This! 1000 times this!

Click to expand...

Thanks bro!

Click to expand...

I frequent dozens of forums without a thanks system (in fact, this is the only forum I'm in that has it) and I don't see this regularly at all. What I do tend to see is people quoting or snipping a post and actually posting their thoughts on why they do (or do not) agree with something. I've read people in this thread say it doesn't encourage more posting if people can't just thank it and I'm shocked, as that's just simply untrue. That's fine if that's the nature of the environment here, but it works elsewhere.

LicoriceAllsorts · Apr 15, 2016

FWIW, I have no problem with the Thanks system in any of the threads, but if it deterring people from taking part in debates then we should at least experiment with removing it. Two caveats though:

- if someone's views are minority or unpopular, this will quickly become apparent in other ways if the Thanks system is removed

- I agree with Ite that we could see a lot of more of people making posts that say "I agree!" or "Word!" or whatever, which don't add any more to the debate than the Thanks do but can be equally intimidating to the minority view. So maybe what is needed is discourage all posts in the debate threads that aren't a constructive addition to, or response to, what has already been said.

BTW in all debates there is always a vote at the end to see who wins.

Roger · Apr 15, 2016

Dawnbreaker said:
No one seems to be able to say this issue occurs outside of the debates forum, so why take it from the entire forum?

News, Politics, Religion, & Debate forum just has the highest concentration of serious arguments where this issue can arise but it's not exclusive to it.

Ghost X · Apr 15, 2016

I had actually made this poll based on remarks I've heard over some period of time about how thanks are used over the entire forum, not just the debate section (though I was aware of that viewpoint hence the option in the poll).

I've not seen evidence that there is an external view that TLS is a big circle jerk, and I'm not saying it is a major issue, but for a minority it might be. That's why I place emphasis on the question of whether we are sympathetic to said minority, as most of us obviously aren't of this minority. People of this minority who are currently here have every right to be anonymous, and appear to be smaller in number than I expected going by the current poll result.

I made this thread knowing a majority of complainants have left (ie: mostly newbies who don't feel welcome). It isn't like i have hard data, but as the saying goes: for every person that protests there's likely a lot more that share the opinion. Iceberg scenario. This perception could be entirely wrong or overblown, which is precisely why I put this up for scrutiny. I'm certainly not hallucinating as I was in a discussion the other day where this was brought up, ie: a newer member saying "why don't I get thanks but they do." Twas the straw that broke the camel's back :p.

Obsidian Fire · Apr 15, 2016

Ghost X said:
I'm certainly not hallucinating as I was in a discussion the other day where this was brought up, ie: a newer member saying "why don't I get thanks but they do." Twas the straw that broke the camel's back :p.

This to me is just an extension of real life though. People who are well known within a group are always going to get more feedback then people who aren't and the only way to get known is to talk more (post stuff). It takes a while for people to get to know where a person is coming from, if they're being serious or not, etc. in real life, and that takes even longer in a forum setting as people aren't talking face-to-face.

My response to this: "why don't I get thanks but they do." is that it's got nothing to do with popularity and everything to do with what was in the post and if people know where that person is coming from.

Then again, this is like other introverts asking me as an introvert how to get extroverts to talk with them more and me telling them to get over being introverts and talk more 'cause the extroverts aren't going to notice them if they don't. It's just the way the Western social media works; if you don't put yourself out there, no one is going to notice you. If you want to get noticed on a forum post things that people agree with or think are interesting, otherwise you won't stand out.

Other things that help people get noticed is all the forum gingerbread like usernames and signatures and avatars. I'd be lying if I said I didn't pay more attention to people with thematic usernames/signatures/avatars because it's a lot easier to remember other posts that they've written (especially if they don't change their usernames). People who don't have those or have more generic usernames/avatars/signatures are harder to remember because I don't have an image associated with them. Heck, that's part of the reason I changed my username/avatar/signature, or at the very least that's part of the reason I haven't changed it back. I know people know it's me when I post (I've got a recognized personal brand for lack of a better term) and switching that up isn't a good thing. (Being someone who is studying marketing can be annoying sometimes.) Okay, and it's my favorite FPS character ever...

I just think that if we're approaching this from the perspective of "the new people aren't getting thanked so lets removed the thanks system" then we're doing it wrong. Once the thanks system is gone, something else will come along that determines who's perceived as popular and who isn't. That's just the way real life works.

Lex · Apr 15, 2016

Here is my post on this from the staff section, where this discussion started (I actually thought it was public at the time):

Can I just say, speaking as someone who was very much a part of the "outgroup" back when that I completely understand how horrible it feels to be ridiculed after making a serious/ thought-out post and watch forty people thank the cunty response.

We've had a thread exactly like this before - back when all of that horribleness was happening, where people were told to "grow a thicker skin" etc. The problem wasn't the system itself, it was the following:

- How the system was used (i.e. e-peen buddy measurement, people trying to be 4-chan lite)
- Toxic board culture
- Failings of staff (specifically staff putting victims of flaming/abuse at fault and saying they were being too sensitive rather than blaming the actual people causing trouble in an attempt to appease the troublemakers)

I became a staff member a while after the great exodus of 2012 and fought hard to be as inclusive and welcoming as possible because I went through the bullshit of being totally ignored by half the members when I tried to join discussions and then I'd get trolled and a thousand people would thank the troll while I sat there wondering what I'd done wrong. I know how shitty that feels and so do a lot of others, hence the old discussion about the thanks system (which became a drama thread super quick).

If there's even a whiff of going down that path again, we're all putting a stop to it now. None of the new members will know how horrendous a place the board used to be for new people. My posts are sometimes a bit confrontational if I feel defensive about a topic, and those tend not to get thanked at all. That's as it should be IMO.

I think it also needs saying though that the bullshit that happened back then won't be repeated as long as I'm a mod. I'm all for saying what you want to say, but the rule is don't be a dick and it's an easy rule to follow. Don't intentionally antagonise or personally attack people, that's it. People know how they're coming across when they're typing a post and they usually also know how that post is going to be received, so pleading ignorance will not work.

Anyway that's a bit of a tangent, but it's all connected. Our current board culture is a thousand times better than it used to be, but we should be vigilant about how our actions are going to affect everyone on the board. There really is no in-crowd now, just familiarity. No animosity is intended toward newer members, and I won't let TLS go down that road again.

We can have a referendum on this if people want for sure. I don't particularly care about the thanks system being a part of the board or not, but I know that it absolutely has an effect on the experience of some members whether that be a positive or negative thing.

Cthulhu · Apr 15, 2016

Mr. Ite said:
In regards to "cliques" I am totally oblivious to that but I think extrapolating from the Thanks sections of threads might lead you astray.

I think without thanks we'll be seeing a lot more of this

^This! This! 1000 times this!

Click to expand...

Thanks bro!

Click to expand...

LIEK TOTALLY THIS!

Actually I don't think we had an issue like that before we added the thanks system; IIRC (and I probably don't because it was a long time ago and I'm old), it was added from a need to idk, state one appreciates the poast without having to poast. I'm sure the thread where it was proposed and introduced is around here somewhere still, with the reasonings behind adding it. Maybe someone could go have a look (I'm not sober enough to do a search atm :monster:

)

Starling · Apr 15, 2016

I think we should start discussing the aspects of the problem that go beyond the thanks system and what can be done about it by other means. Otherwise the actual problem may not get resolved. For one thing, communication seems to be a factor. We need to take a look at the way debates happen on the forums in general and really get into the issues people have in that regard, since that's what the thanks issues seems to be tied to.

ForceStealer · Apr 15, 2016

I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything...but don't we already have the solution? Yop says it's super easy to exclude the plugin from the Debate forum and leave it elsewhere. That's the answer, right? I don't think anyone cared about it being removed from there, even if they didn't necessarily disagree with the reasoning.

I feel like if we just keep waxing philosophic everyone will get so meta and stuck-up-their-own-collective-ass to do anything about it when we had, at the least, a perfectly reasonable compromise 3 pages in.

Geostigma · Apr 15, 2016

ForceStealer said:
I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything...but don't we already have the solution? Yop says it's super easy to exclude the plugin from the Debate forum and leave it elsewhere. That's the answer, right? I don't thing anyone cared about it being removed from there, even if they didn't necessarily disagree with the reasoning.

I just feel like if we just keep waxing philosophic everyone will get so meta and stuck-up-their-own-collective-ass to do anything about it when we had, at the least, a perfectly reasonable compromise 3 pages in.

Yeah I was meaning to pretty much say the same thing when I got home.

There is some merit here. We should be sure were not making a mountain out of a mole hill. Realistically speaking only 2 votes say thanks should be removed entirely , and the other half of votes are evenly split between keeping it and only doing minor changes to it etc.

Like Force I figured removing it as a trial from Debate was that change.

X-SOLDIER · Apr 15, 2016

Just jumping in a little late here as someone who really, REALLY like the Thanks system for a good number of reasons:

• It makes skimming things about a billion times easier if you’re trying to hit on main points and catch up on threads. I do this all the time on certain topics, especially finding posts that made really good points to quote them, etc.
• They’re like footprints. It serves as a marker for, “Did I see and acknowledge this” when looking at older posts/threads. As a mod, and when looking through ye olde type stuff, this is something that’s really cool, because I’m always surprised when I DIDN’T see something way back when.
• It lets people in personal threads know that you’re there for them even if you have nothing to say. It’s a good marker of a silent show of support.
• It gives a way to agree to views without needing to respond to everything (which is the reason I liked having it in the Debate forum, since a lot of the times there’s someone covering what you want to say, so that you don’t have to).
• I use it on posts where, while I may not agree with them, they've made a good point or done a good job in explaining their PoV (again, a use more in the Debate section, but in other SRS conversations as well)
• It helps gauge the general attitude of a thread. If you want to know where people side during a discussion, it’s really easy to pick out who appreciates whatever arguments. Even in the debate area this is something that comes up from time-to-time.

Are there ways that this could be clique-y or make folks feel excluded? Sure there are. However, that seems like the sort of thing that we’re MORE than capable of handling as a Community rather than needing to purge the plugin over it – especially because the positives that we get from it aren't something that're easily obtained without it.

I am curious – If you were able to hide Thanks at a user-specific level, would that alleviate the issue, since it lets people who want to use it use it, and others that don't want to see it not ever have to. Not sure if it's POSSIBLE, but it seems like something worth thinking about.

X :neo:

Joe · Apr 15, 2016

ForceStealer said:
I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything...but don't we already have the solution? Yop says it's super easy to exclude the plugin from the Debate forum and leave it elsewhere. That's the answer, right? I don't thing anyone cared about it being removed from there, even if they didn't necessarily disagree with the reasoning.

I actually wanted to say this myself, but figured there may be some who still wanted to share their view on this. But yeah, I honestly think a trial run of its removal from one section is a simple solution. Even if it doesn't end up being long-term, this gives us a clearer view on the issue and may potentially highlight why there's some turmoil over it. We don't lose anything by giving it a try, either.

X-SOLDIER · Apr 15, 2016

Joe said:
I actually wanted to say this myself, but figured there may be some who still wanted to share their view on this. But yeah, I honestly think a trial run of its removal from one section is a simple solution. Even if it doesn't end up being long-term, this gives us a clearer view on the issue and may potentially highlight why there's some turmoil over it. We don't lose anything by giving it a try, either.

Mostly for Yop: (Just to check, I'd like ta make sure that if we'd test disable it, and then reenabled it, if preexisting "Thanks" comments would still be there, or if it'd strip them all out, because that'll change things if we brought it back or considering where to test it).

X :neo:

Octo · Apr 15, 2016

X-SOLDIER said:
I am curious – If you were able to hide Thanks at a user-specific level, would that alleviate the issue, since it lets people who want to use it use it, and others that don't want to see it not ever have to. Not sure if it's POSSIBLE, but it seems like something worth thinking about.

It is, it requires Adblock plus plugin:

JBedford128 said:
You can do so right now on Firefox, if you use Adblock Plus you can add the filter

Code:

thelifestream.net##[id*=post_thanks_box]

in your filter preferences to hide all thanks. I believe there's somewhere deep in the Firefox settings you can do this without Adblock Plus but I don't remember where. I don't know about Chrome's version. Of course it would be better for the site staff to add the option server-side.

I've been using it, it's weird. The forum does seem a little bald without it, but I'm going to see if I can get used to it.

However I still thank peoples poasts, even if I can't see the thanks. Force of habit :monster:

X-SOLDIER · Apr 15, 2016

This is a very good thing ta know. Thanks, Octo! (since you can't see my Thanks) :awesomonster:

I am curious how people feel about it as an option though.

X :neo:

ForceStealer · Apr 15, 2016

Octo said:
X-SOLDIER said:

I am curious – If you were able to hide Thanks at a user-specific level, would that alleviate the issue, since it lets people who want to use it use it, and others that don't want to see it not ever have to. Not sure if it's POSSIBLE, but it seems like something worth thinking about.

Click to expand...

It is, it requires Adblock plus plugin:

JBedford128 said:

You can do so right now on Firefox, if you use Adblock Plus you can add the filter

Code:

thelifestream.net##[id*=post_thanks_box]

in your filter preferences to hide all thanks. I believe there's somewhere deep in the Firefox settings you can do this without Adblock Plus but I don't remember where. I don't know about Chrome's version. Of course it would be better for the site staff to add the option server-side.

Click to expand...

I've been using it, it's weird. The forum does seem a little bald without it, but I'm going to see if I can get used to it.

However I still thank peoples poasts, even if I can't see the thanks. Force of habit

Octo said:
However I still thank peoples poasts, even if I can't see the thanks. Force of habit

Octo said:
Force of habit

Octo · Apr 15, 2016

I knew you were going to do something like that :monster:

ForceStealer · Apr 15, 2016

Haha, sorry to be predictable. I just enjoy whenever my screen name sounds like anything other than a Star Wars reference... >_>

Cthulhu · Apr 16, 2016

X-SOLDIER said:
Joe said:

I actually wanted to say this myself, but figured there may be some who still wanted to share their view on this. But yeah, I honestly think a trial run of its removal from one section is a simple solution. Even if it doesn't end up being long-term, this gives us a clearer view on the issue and may potentially highlight why there's some turmoil over it. We don't lose anything by giving it a try, either.

Click to expand...

Mostly for Yop: (Just to check, I'd like ta make sure that if we'd test disable it, and then reenabled it, if preexisting "Thanks" comments would still be there, or if it'd strip them all out, because that'll change things if we brought it back or considering where to test it).

X

Yeah, pretty sure it wouldn't, but, I'd have to check / test. Luckily we have a test site set up, :monster:

. I can give it a go tomorrow. Pretty sure it just hides the relevant template sections (thanks and vote button); actually deleting existing thanks in a section involves extra work, and developers are too lazy to do that shit.

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 16, 2016

Not that anyone will be surprised, but I'm fully in favor of keeping the Thanks system (I didn't vote in the poll, though) and also fully in favor of moving forward as soon as possible with the trial run in the News, Politics, Religion & Debate section.

On the whole, I don't think we will hit upon anything that solves every possible situation that may come up for anyone and everyone ever -- but that also shouldn't be the goal. If we can solve something like in the upper 90% of issues related to the system without taking it away from those who like having it, particularly when that is the majority (again implementing the philosophy of shooting for satisfaction in the upper 90%), then we have a functional solution and should move forward with it.

I had many other thoughts while reading through this thread, but others have expressed most of them, and I've thanked their posts. Of course, I've also thanked some posts I disagreed with anyway in appreciation of their candor. As well as some I just thought were funny. And some that were helpful for other members.

And I think the point is obvious by now, so I'll stop there. :monster:

Dawnbreaker · Apr 16, 2016

If you guys wanna go with that, alright. I mean, I still think it's a bad idea to nerf the debate section over actually finding out what the real problem is and resolving it...But maybe this is one of those situations were digging into it would do more harm than good. I dunno.

I also don't understand why we have to White Knight this situation and people cannot say why they feel the way they feel or even identity themselves (I cannot say I like what that implies...) but again, whatever.

As I'm not often in that section (the debates area), I don't think I should have say on what goes on in there.

I will however, ask why we are not more seriously considering the better option: people turning off the Thanks option for themselves. I mean, obviously that's the best of both worlds -- people who don't want to see the Thanks can avoid seeing it and those that want to see it, can see it. So, I don't get why we're ignoring that option.

But, fine, whatever. As along as we're not censoring the shit outta the entire forum, I'll deal.

Thanks System Referendum.

Should the Thanks system continue?

Yes.

Yes, but be restricted in certain sections (Discuss).

No.

~The Other Side of Fear~

~The Other Side of Fear~

Save your valediction (she/her)

~The Other Side of Fear~

3x3 Eyes

Donator

He/him

Moderator

Ahk Morn!

Administrator

Administrator

Pro Adventurer

Double Growth

Pro Adventurer

Harbinger O Great Justice

I KEEP MY IDEALS

Harbinger O Great Justice

KULT OF KERMITU

Harbinger O Great Justice

Double Growth

KULT OF KERMITU

Double Growth

Administrator

Ex-SeeD-ingly good

~The Other Side of Fear~