Guest Characters in Remake

Sicarius VI said:

-Genesis should be nowhere in this Remake besides the flashback sequence due to Crisis Core's retcon.

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No.

Inserting Genesis into the Nibelheim sequence relates to the plot of crisis core. It does not relate to the plot of FFVII so it would only be a distraction from a pivotal moment in the main story. It would be like showing Marty McFly crawling above the band in the first Back to the Future movie, or (explicitly) showing Nibbler in the first episode of Futurama.

My point is: the audience has more important things to think about during the flashback than Genesis, who you point out has no other place in the game.

^I think if they decide to include Genesis, it would be wise to show him more than just suddenly in that one moment in that one flashback and then never again in the game
If they include him, I'd prefer to either just see it implied to fans who know the compilation, or actually show him and mention him elsewhere as well. Maybe not in present time of the game, I'd prefer not to actually meet him, but as an 'Oh yeah I remember him too' and then reports on him, etc.

It's weird, I like the compilation (CC mainly) and Genesis' role, but I don't like Genesis He can take that book and shove it.

As I've said many times before, it was very clear that the INTENTION of Crisis Core's inclusion of Genesis at Nibelheim was to be in such a way that would not interfere with the way it was shown in FF7. The idea was that Cloud did not see Genesis at any point of the Incident, and even with Zack telling him the story, he was not familiar enough with him for that to be part of his Jenova-addled version of events.

Now, as with many of Square's attempts at narrative elegance, this was handled sloppily and it's easy to poke holes in it. However, I think it remains clear that the INTENT was that even if Genesis was there, Cloud was unaware of it and it didn't affect Cloud's development anyway, and so it would leave the canon undisturbed.

Therefore, I think it is likely that Genesis will not play a role in the remake's main story. I could see a bonus dungeon at Modeoheim or something like that (and I would be perfectly fine with that), but I neither want nor expect him to appear in the main story.

ForceStealer said:

Therefore, I think it is likely that Genesis will not play a role in the remake's main story. I could see a bonus dungeon at Modeoheim or something like that (and I would be perfectly fine with that), but I neither want nor expect him to appear in the main story.

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The Remake's main storyline is just as the same as the original game with new content(and hopefully with connections with the Compilation, but that's not happening, unfortunately) which is focusing on saving the world from Sephiroth and ShinRa(who are also trying to stop Sephiroth as well) and Cloud's too busy focusing on that to even think about that tiny memory of seeing Genesis in Modeohiem.

The closest I think Genesis would appear in the Remake, IF he's appearing at all(most likely not) would be a new secret ending set after the Secret Ending of Dirge of Cerberus.

Tashasaurous said:

The Remake's main storyline is just as the same as the original game with new content(and hopefully with connections with the Compilation, but that's not happening, unfortunately)

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Did you not read the interview where Nomura stated explicitly that they will be incorporating compilation material?

Tashasaurous said:

The Remake's main storyline is just as the same as the original game with new content(and hopefully with connections with the Compilation, but that's not happening, unfortunately)

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hian said:

Tashasaurous said:

The Remake's main storyline is just as the same as the original game with new content(and hopefully with connections with the Compilation, but that's not happening, unfortunately)

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Did you not read the interview where Nomura stated explicitly that they will be incorporating compilation material?

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We've pointed that out at least a dozen times. It has yet to sink in.

I think the fact that SE has been shoehorning easter eggs re: other series characters into other unrelated titles since the days of SquareSoft, there's probably a good chance of seeing some form of Lightning and Noctis, at the very least, in VII:Re, whether it's guest characters in passing, posters, or a brief dialogue mention.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't mind Genesis?

Channy said:

Also, am I the only one who doesn't mind Genesis?

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Thankfully no. I happen to like Genesis.

Mr. Ite said:

Sicarius VI said:

-Genesis should be nowhere in this Remake besides the flashback sequence due to Crisis Core's retcon.

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No.

Inserting Genesis into the Nibelheim sequence relates to the plot of crisis core. It does not relate to the plot of FFVII so it would only be a distraction from a pivotal moment in the main story.

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No.

You need to rewatch the scene again. Yes Genesis is there to get S-Cells from Sephiroth. However Genesis is also a driving force in Sephiroth's downfall. It does play a role in FF7.

Also I really don't understand how this scene could be re-re retconed to not include Genesis. As much as a lot of people on here don't like it.. Genesis is apart of the Compilation and is canon. Him being at the Nibelheim incident is canon. Also they are rewriting the remake to have it flow with the compilation, and this would be one of those parts they would need to clarify.

ForceStealer said:

Now, as with many of Square's attempts at narrative elegance, this was handled sloppily and it's easy to poke holes in it. However, I think it remains clear that the INTENT was that even if Genesis was there, Cloud was unaware of it and it didn't affect Cloud's development anyway, and so it would leave the canon undisturbed.

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The problem with this is that when Cloud starts the Kalm Flashback he sees this whole part through Zacks eyes. If you remember Cloud himself doesn't actually go into the Reactor at that point. Everything he explains is from Zack's POV. Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

Sicarius VI said:

Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

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It didn't just erase Genesis. Cloud didn't even remember Zack until Mideel was trashed. Besides, I think it's because Cloud barely knew Genesis and thus, the Sephiroth and Jenova cells erased Genesis from Cloud's memory which was Zack's memory all mixed up.

Plus, minds can play tricks on people and make them forget a few details in memories. Happens to me all the time. Besides, Cloud's just focusing on Sephiroth due to what happened in Nibelhiem. Sephiroth is an enemy to Cloud just as Genesis was to Zack and Hojo was to Vincent.

Yes, can you imagine what an anti-climax the big reveal would be if, after remembering Zack at Nibelheim while down in the Lifestream, Cloud had a second big revelatory moment about Genesis?

I don't know that it would be very revolutionary though. Tasha has a point that, to Cloud, Genesis isn't anyone who stands out. He does to Zack, who was CC's POV character. But during the remake, I don't think it would be too outside the realm of believability for Genesis to be there. Cloud focused on Sephiroth, on his anger and pain against him, for Nibelheim and Tifa.

Yeah, but the flashbacks are what Cloud remembers, not what really happened. So if he didn't remember Genesis, then Genesis shouldn't be seen. If he was focusing on Zack's memories of Sephiroth, why would Genesis even come into it?

But I fear SE won't use that kind of reasoning, they'll just shoehorn Genesis in because for some inexplicable reason he is popular and fans want to see him.

Sicarius VI said:

Also I really don't understand how this scene could be re-re retconed to not include Genesis. As much as a lot of people on here don't like it.. Genesis is apart of the Compilation and is canon. Him being at the Nibelheim incident is canon.

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What's there not to understand? As I find myself saying again and again - if they're fine with ret-coning things once, why would they not be fine with doing it again?

Saying "it's canon" is completely vapid when SE has already proven they do not care about what is canon.

Sicarius VI said:

Also they are rewriting the remake to have it flow with the compilation, and this would be one of those parts they would need to clarify.

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That's actually not what they said. They said there were things unclear about the compilation specifically, which they might want to address in the remake. That suggests that the compilation material that they consider using for the remake is just as open for reinterpretation and change as the material of the original.

Sicarius VI said:

The problem with this is that when Cloud starts the Kalm Flashback he sees this whole part through Zacks eyes. If you remember Cloud himself doesn't actually go into the Reactor at that point. Everything he explains is from Zack's POV. Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

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I don't know if this has ever been explicitly clarified. From the original alone though, I was under the impression that Cloud was simply building a story based on second-hand knowledge combined with his own memories - not that he was actually accessing Zack's memories and seeing things exactly as he saw them - so discrepancies like that can easily be written off simply on the basis of Cloud being an unreliable narrator whose memories cannot be trusted one way or the other.

I know some/a lot of people here hold to the idea that the Jenova cells have actually infused him with the memories of Zack which they read off of him prior to Zack dying - but I just don't see that argument holding water in context of the original alone, meaning that even if it's true given later material trying to fill out gaps, it's something they could very easily address in the remake by simply dropping it.


Also, as I've said before - Genesis, at least the Genesis as we know him, will not be in this game unless they can renew their licensing agreement with Gackt. Now, if despite a failure to renew the license the character still does pop up, he'll have to be redesigned and cast with a new voice actor, at least in the Japanese edition, at which point SE might simply consider it too much of a hassle to get into, or they might be tempted to do some changes to his character/story given the other changes they would have to do with him.
After all, how confusing would it not be for fans of CC etc. to suddenly have a guy with a new face and voice, called Genesis, popping up as if nothing's changed?

Sicarius VI said:

No.

You need to rewatch the scene again. Yes Genesis is there to get S-Cells from Sephiroth. However Genesis is also a driving force in Sephiroth's downfall. It does play a role in FF7.

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It's not a driving force for Cloud's character though. And FF7 is Cloud's story. It would not be a re-retcon. Like I said before this was the intention of sticking Genesis where they did.

Sicarius VI said:

The problem with this is that when Cloud starts the Kalm Flashback he sees this whole part through Zacks eyes. If you remember Cloud himself doesn't actually go into the Reactor at that point. Everything he explains is from Zack's POV. Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

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Incorrect. As hian says, Cloud's Jenova-flooded mind is creating a story based on second-hand knowledge and is an unreliable narrator.

And why is it so hard to believe he would "erase" Genesis when he completely erased Zack from existence? So much so that even when Zack's parents SAY HIS NAME he still can't remember him. He doesn't even freak out when his parents mention it. He just thinks, "Huh, never heard of him. Weird."

Cloud just gives a cliffnotes version of what went on in the Nibelheim Mako Reactor. He hasn't the time to explain Genesis nor would it aid the story. His absence doesn't need to anything more then that. Now the idea that Cloud, either the SOLDIER persona or the real one, has no awareness of Genesis at all I don't think can be supported. Even if it was the INTENTION of Crisis Core at the start of the development, I don't think it's the reality of the story when it was finished.

Yeah but I would expect intent to be of more use in predicting a path the remake might take than the reality of the result. They have no obligation to stick to the "reality," so why wouldn't they make things stick more to their intent?

ForceStealer said:

Yeah but I would expect intent to be of more use in predicting a path the remake might take than the reality of the result. They have no obligation to stick to the "reality," so why wouldn't they make things stick more to their intent?

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If the Remake rekindles enough interest to make the Genesis sequel I expect Cloud to know who Genesis is in it. In the Remake itself I don't think Genesis will be paid really any mind at all.

Tasha I'm not saying no Compilation stuff will be used, as hian says Genesis in particular is problematic.

Compromise: Have an apple in the scene on the ground as an easter egg.

hian said:

Also, as I've said before - Genesis, at least the Genesis as we know him, will not be in this game unless they can renew their licensing agreement with Gackt. Now, if despite a failure to renew the license the character still does pop up, he'll have to be redesigned and cast with a new voice actor, at least in the Japanese edition, at which point SE might simply consider it too much of a hassle to get into, or they might be tempted to do some changes to his character/story given the other changes they would have to do with him.
After all, how confusing would it not be for fans of CC etc. to suddenly have a guy with a new face and voice, called Genesis, popping up as if nothing's changed?

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Would it really be that problematic just to change his face and voice from Gackt's likeness, though? The outfit is arguably the most iconic thing about him (well, that and the way he talks), and since Nomura designed that, it belongs to SE, license or no license.

ForceStealer said:

Sicarius VI said:

The problem with this is that when Cloud starts the Kalm Flashback he sees this whole part through Zacks eyes. If you remember Cloud himself doesn't actually go into the Reactor at that point. Everything he explains is from Zack's POV. Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

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Incorrect. As hian says, Cloud's Jenova-flooded mind is creating a story based on second-hand knowledge and is an unreliable narrator.

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As hian also said, though, you can make that argument with the original game, but when you bring in the wider Compilation, Cloud's recollection of things (down to specific sentences) is too perfect for him not to have also absorbed genuine memories.

What does that have to do with the wider Compilation? He always remembered specific sentences.

The Twilight Mexican said:

hian said:

Also, as I've said before - Genesis, at least the Genesis as we know him, will not be in this game unless they can renew their licensing agreement with Gackt. Now, if despite a failure to renew the license the character still does pop up, he'll have to be redesigned and cast with a new voice actor, at least in the Japanese edition, at which point SE might simply consider it too much of a hassle to get into, or they might be tempted to do some changes to his character/story given the other changes they would have to do with him.
After all, how confusing would it not be for fans of CC etc. to suddenly have a guy with a new face and voice, called Genesis, popping up as if nothing's changed?

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Would it really be that problematic just to change his face and voice from Gackt's likeness, though? The outfit is arguably the most iconic thing about him (well, that and the way he talks), and since Nomura designed that, it belongs to SE, license or no license.

ForceStealer said:

Sicarius VI said:

The problem with this is that when Cloud starts the Kalm Flashback he sees this whole part through Zacks eyes. If you remember Cloud himself doesn't actually go into the Reactor at that point. Everything he explains is from Zack's POV. Why would Cloud's mind just erase Genesis from it, and remember everything else?

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Incorrect. As hian says, Cloud's Jenova-flooded mind is creating a story based on second-hand knowledge and is an unreliable narrator.

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As hian also said, though, you can make that argument with the original game, but when you bring in the wider Compilation, Cloud's recollection of things (down to specific sentences) is too perfect for him not to have also absorbed genuine memories.

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They have to go through the hassle of getting a new actor for Hojo in both Japanese and English anyway since the Japanese guy is dead and the English actor refuses to replay his role as him since he hated doing it. Similiar thing with Nanaki(Red XIII). What difference would it make for Genesis to have a different Japanese actor?

ForceStealer said:

What does that have to do with the wider Compilation? He always remembered specific sentences.

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That's precisely my point. With just the original, you could happily say, "Well, who knows how reliable Cloud's memory about all this is?"

Then you see Last Order ... and Before Crisis ... and Crisis Core -- and suddenly, holy shit, this dude's memory of things he wasn't there for is too spot-on for him to have not copied stuff directly from Zack's head.

I always assumed there was a degree of telepathy involved, as Jenova exists inside multiple people during/after that incident and she can puppeteer people's memories to suit her needs.

But simply from a narrative perspective, Genesis has nothing to do with FF7's story, it would be as relevant as showing Cloud's memories of brushing his teeth. It may have happened but as an audience member there is no pay-off.