Guest Characters in Remake

[Roger]

Also, as I've said before - Genesis, at least the Genesis as we know him, will not be in this game unless they can renew their licensing agreement with Gackt. Now, if despite a failure to renew the license the character still does pop up, he'll have to be redesigned and cast with a new voice actor, at least in the Japanese edition, at which point SE might simply consider it too much of a hassle to get into, or they might be tempted to do some changes to his character/story given the other changes they would have to do with him.
After all, how confusing would it not be for fans of CC etc. to suddenly have a guy with a new face and voice, called Genesis, popping up as if nothing's changed?

Would it really be that problematic just to change his face and voice from Gackt's likeness, though? The outfit is arguably the most iconic thing about him (well, that and the way he talks), and since Nomura designed that, it belongs to SE, license or no license.

Incorrect. As hian says, Cloud's Jenova-flooded mind is creating a story based on second-hand knowledge and is an unreliable narrator.

As hian also said, though, you can make that argument with the original game, but when you bring in the wider Compilation, Cloud's recollection of things (down to specific sentences) is too perfect for him not to have also absorbed genuine memories.

They have to go through the hassle of getting a new actor for Hojo in both Japanese and English anyway since the Japanese guy is dead and the English actor refuses to replay his role as him since he hated doing it. Similiar thing with Nanaki(Red XIII). What difference would it make for Genesis to have a different Japanese actor?

Those are Hojo's voice actors, which Hojo didn't even have in his original g game. Gackt portrays Genesis in Dirge of Cerberus live-action. And uses his costume in music videos. He is co-creator.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He is (though the costume was designed by Nomura and is owned by Square Enix; it was part of the deal Gackt made with SE that he would get to wear the outfit for stuff related to his next tour), but I still have to ask: Would it really be that big of a deal to slightly modify the character's face so that he turns into Somewhat More Generic Bishounen, or to replace his voice with someone else who can intone like a zombie?

Added to that, Crisis Core is coming up on 10 years old. Dirge is already older than that. Who, except maybe Nomura, is so attached to the notion that Gackt is Genesis that these changes would ruin it for them?

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't even think he looks all that much like Gackt in CC...he just looks like a Nomura character. Or is it that Nomura's characters look like Gackt?

 

[Tetsujin]

I mean, his features are definitely Gackt-ish. But to me it often depends on the angle or the facial expression. In some scenes he doesn't look much like Gackt to me and in others the resemblance is very recognizable.

In any case, I don't really have any doubt Gackt would be down to clown with Square Enix again. He's got time to do random anime VA, so...

 

[Tashasaurous]

He is (though the costume was designed by Nomura and is owned by Square Enix; it was part of the deal Gackt made with SE that he would get to wear the outfit for stuff related to his next tour), but I still have to ask: Would it really be that big of a deal to slightly modify the character's face so that he turns into Somewhat More Generic Bishounen, or to replace his voice with someone else who can intone like a zombie?

Characters in pretty much almost everything have changes of voice actors all the time these days due to one thing or another. Everyone else in the Remake are getting redone again. If Genesis makes an appearence(most likely in a new secret ending I reckon, but I doubt that'll happen), he'll be no different when it comes to redesigning.

Added to that, Crisis Core is coming up on 10 years old. Dirge is already older than that.

Only by just one year. Because Crisis Core came out in 2007 in Japan while Dirge of Cerberus came out ten years ago, which was 2006, a year after the japanese release of Advent Children.

Ten years is still very young when you think about it.

Who, except maybe Nomura, is so attached to the notion that Gackt is Genesis that these changes would ruin it for them?

Gacket was behind the design of Genesis's outfit due to his costume in one of his concerts. I think that's why people think the two are the same people when they're both different. The changes of designs of the characters, that I can agree with since I myself prefer the designs that were used for the past ten years, but that's just me.

 

[Unit-01]

Just wanted to bring up a few things.

It's not a driving force for Cloud's character though. And FF7 is Cloud's story. It would not be a re-retcon. Like I said before this was the intention of sticking Genesis where they did.
______________________________________________________________
Incorrect. As hian says, Cloud's Jenova-flooded mind is creating a story based on second-hand knowledge and is an unreliable narrator.

And why is it so hard to believe he would "erase" Genesis when he completely erased Zack from existence? So much so that even when Zack's parents SAY HIS NAME he still can't remember him. He doesn't even freak out when his parents mention it. He just thinks, "Huh, never heard of him. Weird."

Ff7 does have a focus on Cloud, but it isn't just his story.

Also you said

He always remembered specific sentences.

Going off of Twilight Mexican argument how would he be "unreliable" but have remembered specific sentences?

There is too much he knows not to have merged some of his memories with Zack's. Also people keep bringing up that Genesis wasn't an important person in Clouds story which is spot on. He isn't.(Expect for the fact he was involved in the whole Genesis War thing meaning he atleast knew who he was.) But he's important to Zack, and going off of the thought their memories merged for the Incident there isn't anything to support that it would cause him remember everything spot on, and then specifically remove Genesis. Cloud doesn't remember Zack because in his mind he is Zack, or at-least his persona.

Like Minato said, if Cloud explains a Cliffnotes version than yea Genesis can be omitted from it. And as Mr. Ite said for the story that is solely FF7 he has no part in it. Both are right. Unless Square decides to make him apart of 7's story... which no one and their mothers want.

It's more not an debate with everyone on here, but just questioning Square wants to do with it. I mean just from a production standpoint the director of the Remake here is Nomura who was the creator of Genesis.

 

[ForceStealer]

Going off of Twilight Mexican argument how would he be "unreliable" but have remembered specific sentences?

I understood Tres' my response to my question here. But it would be very easy to be unreliable but remember specific sentences. The context is entirely different without Zack.

I mean, when Cloud is saying all this:

Sephiroth
You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you.
This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on...
At the end of their harsh, hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness.
But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life.
They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving back one whit in return!
Those are your ancestors.

Cloud
Sephiroth...

Sephiroth
Long ago, disaster struck this planet.
Your ancestors escaped... They survived because they hid.
The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your ancestors continued to increase.
Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports.
Cloud
What does that have to do with you?

Sephiroth
Don't you get it?
An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of 2000 years ago.
The Jenova Project.
The Jenova Project wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients...... no, the Cetra.
...I am the one that was produced.

Cloud
Pr... produced!?

Sephiroth
Yes.
Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius scientist, produced me.

Cloud
How... how did he...?
Se... Sephiroth?

Sephiroth
Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother.

You thought Cloud was just spitting that out on the fly? That he was making up a general gist while saying things like "giving one whit in return?" I always assumed he was remembering that speech as it happened.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As did we all.

The point, though, is that one can't dismiss one aspect of Cloud's account as "he's an unreliable narrator" while -- in the same breath -- credit him for perfectly remembering eloquent, if frightening, speeches that he explicitly was not present for.

The inability to do that applies even if you're working with just the original game, but it becomes especially true when bringing in everything else. And it's also at that point that we move so far beyond a question of the reliability of Cloud's memory of these things that it no longer looks like a secondhand account and more like he's drawing straight from memories that aren't his own.

 

[Ite]

If he can omit ZACK, he can omit GENESIS. Let Squeenix sell a few more copies of Crisis Core for people who want the "wholl compleet canon of teh Nibelheim INCIDENT(tm)" and leave the Kalm Flashback short, sweet, and plot relevant.

Short* meaning quite a sizeable chunk of the game devoted to a flashback, the longest I think I've encountered in media other than Wizard and Glass.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never had a problem with the idea that Jenova mimicked Zack's memories in Cloud, for one. The ability to change ones looks, voice, and words and all that. After all, Zack ALSO had Jenova inside him and the cells are at least able to communicate enough to know to gather for the Reunion. But Cloud's not wholly Jenova, his own brain and self are in there too, hence all the inconsistencies in the story his brain and Jenova whipped up. The whole reason the story solidified in his head was because he mind was shattered and he needed to rebuild a sense of self. If Genesis was irrelevant to that, then why would it have manifested even if Jenova mimicked that memory? Just like how his memory has absolutely no idea about Tifa's whereabouts except where it directly related him.

For two, the ability or inability to remember exact quotes is not what makes one an unreliable narrator, but rather the ability to give an accurate telling of what happened. If I'm telling you the story of FF8 and tell it in the context of Squall Is Dead or Rinoa is Ultimecia, I'm an unreliable narrator no matter how many exact quotes from FF8 I spit at you.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Then you're using the term "unreliable narrator" in a literary sense when most people are going to say it meaning precisely what those two words imply when used together: that the person's willingness or ability to correctly describe events is not reliable. Similarly to how most people aren't speaking to legal terminology and jurisprudence when they use the phrase "burden of proof" -- they're simply saying "it's on you to make your case here," not something related to judicial procedure.

(I mention that example because when I used to be at EyesOnFF, there was a moderator -- or maybe an admin -- who had a background in law and used to get up everyone's ass because he felt the need to "correct" people's use of that phrase despite its obvious meaning in common parlance.)

Sure, Cloud is an unreliable narrator in the literary sense (at least per his first account of things) and his ability to recall things correctly later could arguably be unreliable in the absence of information to corroborate it. But that information does exist.

So, trying to explain away Genesis's absence in Cloud's story on the basis that he's unreliable is both pointless and misleading. It's easier to simply say "He's not pertinent to the matter at hand, and so Cloud didn't mention him." The same way neither Cloud nor Tifa felt the need to mention that she and Cloud (with his face concealed) fought Genesis Copies outside the reactor while "Cloud" (i.e. Zack) was inside with Sephiroth, and that they were then rescued by "Cloud" when he came out.

Honestly, Tifa could have asked something about that as part of seeing what Cloud knew that he "shouldn't" know, but it wasn't relevant to the matter at hand (i.e. telling the story about Sephiroth).

 

[hian]

Would it really be that problematic just to change his face and voice from Gackt's likeness, though? The outfit is arguably the most iconic thing about him (well, that and the way he talks), and since Nomura designed that, it belongs to SE, license or no license.

It's not problematic except in the sense that they can't retroactively change how he looks in the compilation, and I doubt they'd think it necessary or worth the effort to redesign Genesis for the remake, who after all, is not relevant to the story of they're remaking if it's going mean they have to do major changes to him.

As for the outfit - Nomura having designed it does not mean that it is property of SE. Nobuo Uematsu's FF songs for instance, are not his property anymore. They're the property of SE.

Properties are tricky that way.

I mean, his features are definitely Gackt-ish. But to me it often depends on the angle or the facial expression. In some scenes he doesn't look much like Gackt to me and in others the resemblance is very recognizable.

The problem is that whether you, or others, find him recognizable or not, is irrelevant. It all falls down to how he was designed on paper, and if the official record is that Gackt's face was used for the Genesis character, under a license agreement, then using the same character without relatively major changes is not feasible unless Gackt plays ball.

In any case, I don't really have any doubt Gackt would be down to clown with Square Enix again. He's got time to do random anime VA, so...

However, Gackt, or more likely his label, has apparently been uncooperative enough to make Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus unreleasable digitally for all this time.
So really, he might not actually be that interested in reprising the role or being associated with it - for whatever reason.

They have to go through the hassle of getting a new actor for Hojo in both Japanese and English anyway since the Japanese guy is dead and the English actor refuses to replay his role as him since he hated doing it. Similiar thing with Nanaki(Red XIII). What difference would it make for Genesis to have a different Japanese actor?

These are not remotely similar cases, since neither Hojo or Red where characters made together with their respective voice actors, nor modeled after them, nor connected to a specific persona that also does pop-music while in character.

Gacket was behind the design of Genesis's outfit due to his costume in one of his concerts. I think that's why people think the two are the same people when they're both different. The changes of designs of the characters, that I can agree with since I myself prefer the designs that were used for the past ten years, but that's just me.

No, they're not. Genesis was literally modeled after Gackt, and featured both his voice acting, and if I remember correctly, motion-capture work.

Nomura is on record as being a huge Gackt fan. He has been wanting to use Gackt in his work for ages, and in fact, a large portion of his characters are likely inspired in one way or another by his love for the guy.

So, just for a laugh -
Gackt is Cloud :

Gackt is Squall :

Gackt is Laguna :

Gackt is Tidus :

Gackt is Noctis :

Gackt is, to some extent, almost every character Nomura has ever drawn minus his cartoony ones.

Let's face it - this is Nomura :

 

[Tetsujin]

However, Gackt, or more likely his label, has apparently been uncooperative enough to make Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus unreleasable digitally for all this time.

That seems like baseless speculation though.

 

[Lulcielid]

I fail to see the resemble between Gackt and Nomura character designs.

 

[hian]

That seems like baseless speculation though.

That depends on what you mean by baseless. Given that there are literally no other reasons conceivable why it wouldn't be on the PSN store for the Vita when both Type-0 and the Disssidia games are, I wouldn't call it baseless even for a person who doesn't actually have tangible proof at hand.

But, I am not that person. And, while I'm loath to do this, I'm getting tired of beating a dead horse, so I will anyways -
This does not even go into the fact that, as a person who works in the industry here in Japan, this is not widely unknown to be the case. The only reason it isn't put into print, is the common business sense.

If you want confirmation for this, be my guest, PM me your mail-address and I'll give you temp access to my dev channel, where you can ask former Square employees for yourself.

I fail to see the resemble between Gackt and Nomura character designs.

I'm hoping for god's sake you're being sarcastic.

 

[Tetsujin]

That depends on what you mean by baseless. Given that there are literally no other reasons conceivable

Assuming this is because of licensing issues, Ayaka could be another.

 

[hian]

That's highly unlikely simply because that's a single song that is easy to swap out of the game.
Altering Gackts model in-game and in all the FMVs, and rerecording all the Japanese voice-acting on the other hand - that's an actual barrier to release.

But as I said - you don't have to take my word for it. Take the word of someone who actually does regular business at SE, if you're still not convinced. Just hit me with a PM.

Also, that it has to do with licensing issues is not, I think, even without knowing what I know, something worthy of the label "assumption".
There is literally not a single PSP game not on the digital store for the Vita, that is not there because of any other reason that licensing.
Why? Because there is no technological or business reason what so ever, not to put a PSP game up on that store for the Vita.
The only reason some PS1 and PSP games are not digitally available at this point is due to licensing - companies having lost rights, or stopped existing.
No executive ever is going to go : "Well, the techs in place, the rights are in order - but you know what, let's not make this old game that's no longer in print, for an outdated platform available for digital DL and make cash off of it!"

 

[Lulcielid]

I'm hoping for god's sake you're being sarcastic.

I´m serious, I can´t see the resemblances at all.

 

[hian]

I´m serious, I can´t see the resemblances at all.

I don't know how to even begin addressing that. It would be fascinating then to see two different people or characters, doesn't matter from where or when, that you think resemble one another.
Just so I could get an idea what place you come from when you analyze physical characteristics.

 

[Tetsujin]

Also, that it has to do with licensing issues is not, I think, even without knowing what I know, something worthy of the label "assumption".
There is literally not a single PSP game not on the digital store for the Vita, that is not there because of any other reason that licensing.
Why? Because there is no technological or business reason what so ever, not to put a PSP game up on that store for the Vita.
The only reason some PS1 and PSP games are not digitally available at this point is due to licensing - companies having lost rights, or stopped existing.
No executive ever is going to go : "Well, the techs in place, the rights are in order - but you know what, let's not make this old game that's no longer in print, for an outdated platform available for digital DL and make cash off of it!"

What I don't understand then is why even enter into an agreement that prevents digital releases in a time when digital releases are becoming a thing. Lack of foresight?

 

[hian]

What I don't understand then is why even enter into an agreement that prevents digital releases in a time when digital releases are becoming a thing. Lack of foresight?

Yep.
This kinda thing actually happens a lot more often in media than it should due to people in suits and marketing departments having bright ideas about boosting sales through the use of brands and famous people.

Now, this would be going into the land of assumptions though - but it's not unreasonable to think that when they first made the game they made a quick look at projected earnings, figuring that even with the problems that could follow from licensing, having Gackt in the game would increase initial sales to a point that would justify not being able to sell it digitally at a later date.

More likely they just didn't think that far ahead because of the platform was on and therefore didn't do their do-diligence during the legal process.

There could be other reasons too - like for instance SE having talks of remakes and remasters etc. that they didn't see the game as worth keeping around beyond the life-cycle of the PSP, thinking that if interest is high, it could be grounds for a future remastered release, or an entirely new take presented as DLC for the remake etc.

People are fallible. Sometimes its difficult to see how things turn out.

 

[Octo]

I don't think the characters look that much like Gackt either. Sure some of them have similar hairstyles and clothes, but they're not even close facially. I'm sure Nomura is inspired by him a lot (for some bizarre reason) and Nomuras characters all look pretty similar, it's like he can only do 2-3 faces at most.

/off topic

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I´m serious, I can´t see the resemblances at all.

I don't know how to even begin addressing that. It would be fascinating then to see two different people or characters, doesn't matter from where or when, that you think resemble one another.
Just so I could get an idea what place you come from when you analyze physical characteristics.

I don't really see them either. Gackt doesn't have a very distinctive face to start with; he has a bland chameleon face, a kind of generic anime-face, that could be almost anybody, male or female. So of course it's easy with a wig and a little make-up to make him look like almost any character. He could be made to resemble Vincent, Reeve, Reno, Tseng, Tifa, Aerith (maybe not Yuffie as she's just too young). The only ones he couldn't masquerade as are Rude, Barret, and Red XIII.

 

[Tashasaurous]

He could be made to resemble Vincent, Reeve, Reno, Tseng, Tifa, Aerith (maybe not Yuffie as she's just too young). The only ones he couldn't masquerade as are Rude, Barret, and Red XIII.

How can Genesis or anyone else for that matter resemble to Red XIII? He's a feline-dog like being who is one of the guardians of the planet.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm joking, Tasha. My point is that Gackt is so generic-looking he could pass for just about anybody who is the same species as he is and has roughly the same colour skin.