The Abuse Of Science In Final Fantasy 7

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

Most people think that Final Fantasy 7 preaches a Science Is Bad message.However,if one pays attention more to the game it actually is about how abuse of science.In the game we have a good scientist like Gast who wants to know more about the world and has ethics that keep them in line.

Lucrecia is a bit like Gast in wanting to find out more about the world but she at times can be too ambitious and often flirts with crossing the line which is why she allows her child to be experimented.Her actions do come to bite her back and leaves her with great guilt.

Hojo,man,Hojo he is the king of why people like him shouldn't be in science.He is basically a Nazi Scientist who uses his profession to satisfy his morbid curiosities.The fact he is a sociopath makes one wonder what other chilling experiments has he done or haven't been seen yet.

Its not science that is a bad thing but its the unethical boundraries that make it deadly.When you have people like Hojo it is better that they don't get near a lab.

The abuse of science is like the abuse of power or money.It often is bad in the hands of those who don't show humility or wisdom to use it.

LicoriceAllsorts · Nov 19, 2012

I'm really sorry to keep contradicting you, because I actually really enjoy your posts and your ideas - but I have to say that, as I see it, Gast is not a good man, even if he is Aerith's father. He may have subsequently seen the light and fled with Ifalna when he realised what he had unleashed on the world, but he was the Head of the Science department throughout the period when they were exerimenting on implanting Jenova cells into babies and fetuses, and there is some evidence to suggest that the whole thing was originally his idea. Hojo and Hollander were his subordinates and rivals for promotion, and in the true spirit of university science departments everywhere he pitted them against each other without much regard for ethics, if such a thing even exists in their world.

He made this huge mess and then, when he realised it was a mess, he just up and ran with Ifalna instead of staying to use his expertise and do what he could to clean the mess up. And, what's worst of all, he left Hojo in charge, or at the very least he left knowing that Hojo would replace him as the Head of the Science Department.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

LicoriceAllsorts said:
I'm really sorry to keep contradicting you, because I actually really enjoy your posts and your ideas - but I have to say that, as I see it, Gast is not a good man, even if he is Aerith's father. He may have subsequently seen the light and fled with Ifalna when he realised what he had unleashed on the world, but he was the Head of the Science department throughout the period when they were exerimenting on implanting Jenova cells into babies and fetuses, and there is some evidence to suggest that the whole thing was originally his idea. Hojo and Hollander were his subordinates and rivals for promotion, and in the true spirit of university science departments everywhere he pitted them against each other without much regard for ethics, if such a thing even exists in their world.

He made this huge mess and then, when he realised it was a mess, he just up and ran with Ifalna instead of staying to use his expertise and do what he could to clean the mess up. And, what's worst of all, he left Hojo in charge, or at the very least he left knowing that Hojo would replace him as the Head of the Science Department.

Gast could have tried to use his expertise to clean up the mess but here is the thing its Shinra.Hojo shot Vincent when he protested the use of Lucrecia's child being used as an experiment.The fact that Hojo got away with so much stuff could show that Shinra promotes people without ethics to do their stuff.Gast might not be as super clean as I think he is but Shinra defiantly would have gotten rid of him if he protested any harder.Plus lets not forget Gast was killed by Hojo so he could take Ifana and Aerith to be experimented on.I think its safe to say that Shinra would probably have silenced Gast sooner if he protested even more.

looneymoon · Nov 19, 2012

It's easy to look good when your colleague is a textbook mad scientist stereotype.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

looneymoon said:
It's easy to look good when your colleague is a textbook mad scientist stereotype.

Or the madness of Kelfka at that rate as well.

I don't know about you but I think the most horrific cases of that Shinra has abused science is probably Deepground and Project Jenova.

I think in the games we never get a full picture of what the Tsviets had to go through in order to become what they are today but I can say it was not pretty.Actually the thought of using raising children through science to become super soldiers to just appalling in general.

Since Sephiroth was raised from day one to be trained as a super soldier,it makes one wonder what they did to him as a child.Knowing Hojo he was probably seen as a weapon/science project rather than a human being.

With Project Jenova I am disgusted at the fact they continued on with it even though they knew what Jenova was and could be capbale of.Or more accuratly Hojo knew who Jenova was and still didn't care at all that she was a parastic alien capable of doing harm to the world.Then again Hojo is a selfish,disgusting,hideously immoral,and unethical human being who would screw over the world in order to find out more about Jenova's capabalities.

Splintered · Nov 19, 2012

The tension between nature and science is a reused theme in a lot of the Final Fantasies, just in different forms. Man's power (science) versus magic, science versus gods' power, etc, the effect of science on nature- it's just very pronounced in Final Fantasy because of the strong emphasis on nature and earth.

I wouldn't say it is evil either, although Ghast isn't the person I would point to, because Ghast wasn't too much of a benevolent force, although he left science for a Cetra, who is pretty much in touch with nature. Actually, I thought Bugenhagen was the character to bring up how science wasn't exactly terrible- he was very much a nature-ist, but bringing him up on the Highwind he talks about how much he loved machines and such.

It's not explained in detail but I always took it that science and nature can work together, but only if science doesn't dominate and seek to control the other. But Shinra is powermad, and shortsighted so it did exploit the land, and the planet is shown to be above the power of science in many regards, so *shrugs*

Actually the fear of science in literature tends to be fear of unchecked scientific meddling. I mean, how many superheroes had issues because people were manipulating science halfhazardly? Spiderman, the hulk... okay those are the only two I can think of, but in general there are certain eras in literature when this trope pops up a lot. I think I remember hearing that the first real wave of the Horrors of Mishandling Science came after World War II, after the atomic bomb went off and people became unsettled about the dangers of what could happen. Wait, where was I going with this?

Obsidian Fire · Nov 19, 2012

I think we're looking at this from the wrong angle.

The first thing that jumps out at me about the whole science thing is that Gast, Hojo, Lucrecia, Hollander, even Baragan for that matter, all work (or worked at one time) for Shin-Ra. They are scientists, but it's not like they're pursuing science for science's sake. They are pursuing science because they are at a company that has certain goals and is using science to accomplish them. This puts a completely different spin on the abuse of science. The fact is that the company they work for is expecting them to get certain results. From what President Shinra says, the goal they are working towards is finding the Promised Land and maybe making superhumans and since this is Shinra, nobody really cares how they do that. The ends really do justify the means here.

The closest thing I can find in FFVII that resemble actual scientists that are not working for a company are the archeologists in Bone Village. (Head Canon: this is where all the scientists that actually care about science are holing up.) There aren't any scientific journals (that we know about), and there isn't any other scientific body that can call Shin-Ra out for what it's doing. It's pretty much an open field day to experiment the hell out of anything and no one cares what you're doing so long as you're working for Shin-Ra.

To me, this indicates we have abuse of science going on even without all the human experimentation stuff.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

Splintered said:
The tension between nature and science is a reused theme in a lot of the Final Fantasies, just in different forms. Man's power (science) versus magic, science versus gods' power, etc, the effect of science on nature- it's just very pronounced in Final Fantasy because of the strong emphasis on nature and earth.

I wouldn't say it is evil either, although Ghast isn't the person I would point to, because Ghast wasn't too much of a benevolent force, although he left science for a Cetra, who is pretty much in touch with nature. Actually, I thought Bugenhagen was the character to bring up how science wasn't exactly terrible- he was very much a nature-ist, but bringing him up on the Highwind he talks about how much he loved machines and such.

It's not explained in detail but I always took it that science and nature can work together, but only if science doesn't dominate and seek to control the other. But Shinra is powermad, and shortsighted so it did exploit the land, and the planet is shown to be above the power of science in many regards, so *shrugs*

Actually the fear of science in literature tends to be fear of unchecked scientific meddling. I mean, how many superheroes had issues because people were manipulating science halfhazardly? Spiderman, the hulk... okay those are the only two I can think of, but in general there are certain eras in literature when this trope pops up a lot. I think I remember hearing that the first real wave of the Horrors of Mishandling Science came after World War II, after the atomic bomb went off and people became unsettled about the dangers of what could happen. Wait, where was I going with this?

Good analysis and post on the subject.

Yeah,I think we can point to World War 2 to where the wariness of the abuse of science came to be.In the beginning of the 20th century people were very supportive and ethustianstic about science and what progress it could give to society.However,when World War 2 came it also showed science's more desctructive side in the hands of morally bankrupt people.

And let me tell you I think Hojo is just the symbol of people who should not be in the field of science.The fact that man was even given control speaks volumes about Shinra's attitude towards science.They see it as something that they can use to gain power and money plus don't care who gets hurt.Actually I can see why they would have Hojo because he is exactly like them however he isn't in it for the money or even power.He is just doing it to give more to his morbid curiosities and even will stoop to new lows to do it.

PhantomSephiroth · Nov 19, 2012

Sakaguchi never entended to make any lecture on the benefits or risks of science. It's merely just more or less a basis, a context to construct the story on, on how exactly a bunch of people manage to recreate a alien life form. Since FFVII is in a cyberpunk setting, it makes more sense for Sephiroth to be created by science rather than magic or anything like that.

I've always felt that FFVII was more about westernisation.

What is the story basicly? A group of people attempting to stop an evil corporation and latter an evil alien Hybrid from taking over the spiritual life of the world they live in. Right? Well, the whole Lifetream concept is clearely inspired from eastern beliefs of reincarnation and united concsiousness. In fact, Monotheistic deities who rule over everything are absent in eastern religion. On the other side, Sephiroth is a combination of various Western beliefs, mainly the Kabbala and Jesus. And what is is goal? To take over the lifetream so everything falls under his will so he would become an omnipresent, omnipotent God, like you find in every western mainstream religion. So there you have it, western dogmas taking over eatern dogmas. This is why I think FFVII is mainly about westernisation.

Let's not forget that this particular entry had a lot of sentimental value to Sakaguchi, has he was grieving from the Death of is mother. It might reflect a form of attachement to his culture's general beliefs on life and death and the concernfor the siege of Western religions in Japan.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

I just thought about something else in mind because I just realized how opposite in message both FFX and FF7 are.In FF7 it is a theme of the criticism of the abuse of science while in FF10 there is a theme of criticism of organized religion.

I think at its core there is a thing about the abuse of stuff when humanity gets its hands on it.The abuse of power came through religion or science.It is shown religion and science are not bad things but its the abuse of both that can be the real danger.

PhantomSephiroth · Nov 19, 2012

Splintered said:
The tension between nature and science is a reused theme in a lot of the Final Fantasies, just in different forms.

I Can't quite get percpective on this statement. It can't be really about Nature vs. Science because well.....Science and Nature are the same thing. The theme of comflic rather lies in a comflic of needs between humans and Nature or some form of deity.

The only idea of opposition I've seen in the entire franchise is FFX' s Religion vs. Reason.

The Twilight Mexican · Nov 19, 2012

Perhaps "nature vs. technology" would be the way to put it. There is definitely such a theme at work, though I suppose the way you phrased it there works too.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

I think the look at science is best described with Jurassic Park's famous saying"Just because they can doesn't mean they should".Especially with the Jenova Project that just opened the Pandora's Box without even doing better research into what Jenova truly was.Just like the scientists at Jurassic Park the problem wasn't science but the lack of control and respect for the power they had.That lack of respect created Sephiroth would almost destroy the world and Deepground who also did their fair share of damage as well.

LicoriceAllsorts · Nov 19, 2012

Obsidian Fire said:
I think we're looking at this from the wrong angle.

The first thing that jumps out at me about the whole science thing is that Gast, Hojo, Lucrecia, Hollander, even Baragan for that matter, all work (or worked at one time) for Shin-Ra. They are scientists, but it's not like they're pursuing science for science's sake. They are pursuing science because they are at a company that has certain goals and is using science to accomplish them. This puts a completely different spin on the abuse of science. The fact is that the company they work for is expecting them to get certain results. From what President Shinra says, the goal they are working towards is finding the Promised Land and maybe making superhumans and since this is Shinra, nobody really cares how they do that. The ends really do justify the means here.

To me, this indicates we have abuse of science going on even without all the human experimentation stuff.

The exploitation of mako for sort term gains, while ignoring the patently obvious long-term effects, is definitely a major abuse of science.

I don't know who Baragan is, but all those other scientists you mentioned worked for Shinra because Shinra was willing to fund their personal scientific interests. Gast, Hojo and Hollander were totally into the human experimentation thing: it really was science for science's sake. It just so happened that their interests somewhat coincided with Shinra's. If Shinra had been interested in excavating buntlines and lunar harps, the archaeologists at the dig would have been taking the company money too.

We had this discussion in another thread about how Hojo really wasn't interested in Aerith, or the Cetra, or the Promised Land; the only thing he really cared about was proving his reunion theory.

jazzflower92 · Nov 19, 2012

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gast_Faremis

From what I got from his wiki page it seems like Gast was actually pursuing science for wisdom instead of power.Also here is another factor Shinra are the ones who sent Lucrecia and Hojo to assist Gast.From what I remember the biggiest motive behind the Jenova Project was to get to the Promised Land in order to find more mako.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Jenova_Project

Plus the fact that it seems that Project S was a side project of the main project as was the soldier and deepground projects.

The Twilight Mexican · Nov 19, 2012

PhantomSephiroth said:
Sakaguchi never entended to make any lecture on the benefits or risks of science. It's merely just more or less a basis, a context to construct the story on, on how exactly a bunch of people manage to recreate a alien life form. Since FFVII is in a cyberpunk setting, it makes more sense for Sephiroth to be created by science rather than magic or anything like that.

I've always felt that FFVII was more about westernisation.

What is the story basicly? A group of people attempting to stop an evil corporation and latter an evil alien Hybrid from taking over the spiritual life of the world they live in. Right? Well, the whole Lifetream concept is clearely inspired from eastern beliefs of reincarnation and united concsiousness. In fact, Monotheistic deities who rule over everything are absent in eastern religion. On the other side, Sephiroth is a combination of various Western beliefs, mainly the Kabbala and Jesus. And what is is goal? To take over the lifetream so everything falls under his will so he would become an omnipresent, omnipotent God, like you find in every western mainstream religion. So there you have it, western dogmas taking over eatern dogmas. This is why I think FFVII is mainly about westernisation.

Let's not forget that this particular entry had a lot of sentimental value to Sakaguchi, has he was grieving from the Death of is mother. It might reflect a form of attachement to his culture's general beliefs on life and death and the concernfor the siege of Western religions in Japan.

Meant to reply to this sooner. There definitely is a certain Western grounding in the atmosphere of FFVII, which probably played a large role in the worldwide phenomenon it became.

That said, I don't think Sakaguchi was all that concerned about religion. He was more concerned with spirituality. These are two very different things.

According to Yoshinori Kitase, Sakaguchi's ideas that became the Study of Planet Life were influenced by views of life, death and the world found in "other cultures" -- i.e. not Japanese. My guess is American Indian. Consider Cosmo Canyon and look up the Hopi Indians, for instance.

That in itself could be a gold mine of commentary to dig for, but I would, again, hesitate to assume a higher allegory since Sakaguchi came up with these ideas as a way of finding peace with his mother's death (she died in 1988, by the way, so it stands to reason he had been thinking about all this for a while), not as a way of making commentary on the virtues or vices of any particular culture in comparison to any other.

That isn't to say that Nomura, Kitase or Nojima (they did most of the character and plot work) didn't intend more, though, but they haven't made any comments to that effect either.

Splintered · Nov 20, 2012

I don't think the rage is against westernization as much as it's anti-corporation in general.

Look at the time period it was produced, 1995-97 ish., that's not a happy fun time in Japan's History. The 1990's a real estate bubble burst and it became known as Japan's Lost Decade for being one of the worst economic slumps for them.

imo, I feel that most economic slumps breeds discontent with how government and business run themselves. This isn't helped by the fact that in 1995, a very high profile big corporation scandal exploded: Shell versus Nigeria in which the oil corp was involved with some really bad political business- environmental protesters in Nigeria were killed by the government and a lot of people claimed that Shell was partially, if not almost all, responsible.

I dunno, but I were making the first game in a successful franchise placed in a modern setting, I would totally write in influences from the media and my own frustrations. Westernization is a part of the pie but not all of it.

That said, I don't think Sakaguchi was all that concerned about religion. He was more concerned with spirituality. These are two very different things.

That's what I took out of it, but the Sephiroth turning into a god interpretation is interesting, I've never heard it before.

jazzflower92 · Nov 20, 2012

Splintered said:
I don't think the rage is against westernization as much as it's anti-corporation in general.

Look at the time period it was produced, 1995-97 ish., that's not a happy fun time in Japan's History. The 1990's a real estate bubble burst and it became known as Japan's Lost Decade for being one of the worst economic slumps for them.

imo, I feel that most economic slumps breeds discontent with how government and business run themselves. This isn't helped by the fact that in 1995, a very high profile big corporation scandal exploded: Shell versus Nigeria in which the oil corp was involved with some really bad political business- environmental protesters in Nigeria were killed by the government and a lot of people claimed that Shell was partially, if not almost all, responsible.

I dunno, but I were making the first game in a successful franchise placed in a modern setting, I would totally write in influences from the media and my own frustrations. Westernization is a part of the pie but not all of it.

That's what I took out of it, but the Sephiroth turning into a god interpretation is interesting, I've never heard it before.

Oh,yeah the anticorperate angle was very much there.This could also correspond with the abuse of science as well.I mean science for profit is often hurtful and often doesn't think things in the long run.Another comparison with Jurassic Park is the fact that the scientists were more focus on making a profit than actually thinking about the consequences of doing these sorta of experiments.

It also shows another thing about science that it can abused for power as well.

Obsidian Fire · Nov 20, 2012

LicoriceAllsorts said:
I don't know who Baragan is

My bad. I meant Bugenhagen. That's what running spell-check does...

I can't really fault Gast for digging up Jenova as apposed to something else; there isn't any indication he knew he was Jenova, he thought she was a Cetra. What more interests me is why he wanted to dig up a Cetra in the first place, along with why he knew to look in the Northern Crater for one and why he thought Jenova was a Cetra. The game doesn't tell us why he looked for a Cetra in the Northern Crater, but given that he thought Jenova was a Cetra, he probably didn't have a concrete source, but rather legends, folktales, etc.

What is more problematic for me is why Gast left Shin-Ra. Given he didn't know what Jenova was until he had already left, as well as what the game tells us, this had to do with experimentation, probably human experimentation. For me, this is the real cause of FFVII's human-caused problems. At some basic level, the heads of the Science department don't view humans as human, they view them as being on the same level as the monsters/animals. If they had a higher view of humans, Sephiroth wouldn't have been made, Deepground wouldn't have been started etc.

jazzflower92 · Nov 20, 2012

Obsidian Fire said:
My bad. I meant Bugenhagen. That's what running spell-check does...

I can't really fault Gast for digging up Jenova as apposed to something else; there isn't any indication he knew he was Jenova, he thought she was a Cetra. What more interests me is why he wanted to dig up a Cetra in the first place, along with why he knew to look in the Northern Crater for one and why he thought Jenova was a Cetra. The game doesn't tell us why he looked for a Cetra in the Northern Crater, but given that he thought Jenova was a Cetra, he probably didn't have a concrete source, but rather legends, folktales, etc.

What is more problematic for me is why Gast left Shin-Ra. Given he didn't know what Jenova was until he had already left, as well as what the game tells us, this had to do with experimentation, probably human experimentation. For me, this is the real cause of FFVII's human-caused problems. At some basic level, the heads of the Science department don't view humans as human, they view them as being on the same level as the monsters/animals. If they had a higher view of humans, Sephiroth wouldn't have been made, Deepground wouldn't have been started etc.

Oh,yeah another thing is the controversy of human bio engineering.The fact that Selkie called Deepground "hell" tells a lot about how their treatment of their subjects are like.Heck,this would explain how the heck Rosso became so ax crazy as she is today.Its no wonder Selke lost all hope of being rescued after being there for ten years.

Or the fact from some implications throughout the franchise that Sephiroth's childhood was probably on a lesser scale of horrible than Deepground.Actually Sephiroth's path to being a psychopath were ineffitable mainly because they thought of him as a weapon and not a person at all.This doesn't excuse the Tvsiets or Sephiroth of their actions.Now that I think of it Shinra should be getting more punished for their crimes more severly.The fact that they would put children through that kinda of hell hits home to me of real cases in real life when people use children for their own twisted experiments.

PhantomSephiroth · Nov 20, 2012

Hawkeye said:
That said, I don't think Sakaguchi was all that concerned about religion. He was more concerned with spirituality. These are two very different things.

Well, I'm not really into debating semantics, but I meant religion as ''spirituality''. That said Native americain animism and eastern beliefs(Espacially shintoism) are actually almost the same thing, wich makes sens, because Native americains immigrated from Asia.

Splintered said:
I don't think the rage is against westernization as much as it's anti-corporation in general

Would'n that be a little....I don't know...hypocrite. After all, They ARE a corporation, In a country that revere its corporations and businessmen...

The Twilight Mexican · Nov 20, 2012

PhantomSephiroth said:
Well, I'm not really into debating semantics, but I meant religion as ''spirituality''. That said Native americain animism and eastern beliefs(Espacially shintoism) are actually almost the same thing, wich makes sens, because Native americains immigrated from Asia.

Indeed, it does make sense.

Relevant to the topic (and, ironically, FFVII as well):
http://www.tibetanwildyakadventures.com/tibet_hopi_connection.htm
http://www.bluestarprophecy.com/hopi-meet-the-dalai-lama-with-colombian-mamos/

That second one in particular. Almost sounds like the plot of the game, doesn't it? :monster:

Would'n that be a little....I don't know...hypocrite. After all, They ARE a corporation, In a country that revere its corporations and businessmen...

Definitely makes you wonder.

PhantomSephiroth · Nov 20, 2012

Dafuq did I read?

jazzflower92 · Nov 20, 2012

Hawkeye said:
Indeed, it does make sense.

Relevant to the topic (and, ironically, FFVII as well):
http://www.tibetanwildyakadventures.com/tibet_hopi_connection.htm
http://www.bluestarprophecy.com/hopi-meet-the-dalai-lama-with-colombian-mamos/

That second one in particular. Almost sounds like the plot of the game, doesn't it?

Definitely makes you wonder.

Its not hypocrtical if you think something is wrong with society.Maybe its sometimes a take that to less moral corperations.Not all corperations are baby eating monsters but some corperations just can be as bad as Shinra.Lord,help us all if they got their hands on something like mako and did soemthing like the events in Final Fantasy 7 because I will protest them if they make child soldiers or any other experimentation on children at all.

Speaking of child experimentation,it makes you wonder has that ever happened in real life.If it has I will lose even more faith in humanity.

Obsidian Fire · Nov 20, 2012

jazzflower92 said:
Now that I think of it Shinra should be getting more punished for their crimes more severly.

The problem with this is that everyone who was the cause of all the experimentation is already dead. Everyone who is currently at Shin-Ra (and there's hardly anyone as it is) didn't have a part in it. So a further punishing of Shin-Ra seems more like revenge.

Interesting thought: Shin-Ra started out as a weapon manufacturer. They then got into energy and finally experimentation. At this point, I'm wondering what's to stop the WRO from taking the same path before or after Reeve leaves. After all, they don't claim to be a company, only security force, but we all know how quickly that can change.

jazzflower92 said:
Speaking of child experimentation,it makes you wonder has that ever happened in real life.If it has I will lose even more faith in humanity.

If you really want to freak yourself out, go research what types of experiments Nazi scientists were running on Jews and other minorities in the death camps. It's just... wrong. A lot of why they did this has to do with the fact they didn't view Jews and minorities as being human. Let's just say Hojo would have been right there in the thick of it. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that was where SE came up with his characterization.

The Abuse Of Science In Final Fantasy 7

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