On that day, five years ago

Jiro · Apr 21, 2013

There is probably a simple explanation for this, but I find myself confused about a certain event that we are shown during the flashback scenes.

In the "full" version, Zack is defeated by Sephiroth. Cloud recovers the Buster Sword, sneak attacks Sephiroth for critical damage (based on Cloud's relative strength at this point, probably somewhere between 5-10 damage) and then walks out to look after Tifa.

Sephiroth then walks past with Jenova's %@#$in' head and Zack sends Cloud out to kill the nutter. Cloud goes after Sephiroth (without a weapon) and gets stabbed.

Impaled Cloud then proceeds to take charge of the situation, sliding down the Masamune, lifting Sephiroth up through some gory lever action, and then tosses him into the bottom of the reactor.

Question: how does Cloud do this? It is only post-incident that he is exposed to Jenova cells and, from memory, Shinra Security don't undergo Mako treatment. If they do, it still doesn't explain the apparent latent superpower that Cloud needs in order to defeat Sephiroth at this point (whether he is slightly wounded or not).

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 21, 2013

Everyone has Limit Break potential. Cloud just seems to tap into his a little better than others, like when he takes down some AVALANCHE Ravens in Before Crisis using a large sword he shouldn't have been able to use -- and promptly forgets what he did.

Shademp · Apr 21, 2013

It's a common notion with the main character that, when pushed to the brink, his will can overcome any pain. Whether Cloud limit breaks or not, he demonstrates the trait that makes him able to complete his journey (albeit with some failures and hick-ups on the road).

Crisis Core improved the scene in two ways

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1) Cloud actually charges at Sephiroth with the Buster Sword. In this version Cloud is not as much of a dumbass.
2) Sephiroth doesn't just hit the wall when he is flung away, but instead hits electrical equipment that sets him on fire (and probably paralyses him).

I love CC's rendition of this scene. Admittedly, it makes no sense in any version that Sephiroth would rest his entire weight on the Masamune and thusly be lifted off the ground when Cloud lifts the swords. What should happen is simply that Sephiroth's arm is moved by Cloud, not his entire body. But this is where tradition and artistic freedom takes precedence, in my opinion. I don't care how nonsensical the scene is. The badassery is great enough and I love that they did not (entirely) scrap the original game's version of the lever action.

Lex · Apr 21, 2013

I always assumed that one of the many goals of that scene from the original game was to prove that Cloud - the normal, non-enhanced Cloud - found that strength when he was such a weakling because of how devastated he is about his town, and of course - Zack and Tifa.

As in, the mako infusions and Jenova cells don't matter quite as much as Shinra seems to think they do. They might create better "every day" soldiers, but at the end of the day the strongest one is defeated by a level 1 weakling because he's just so damn infuriated. They do labour the point about how weak Cloud is in comparison to Sephiroth in that first flashback.

Jiro · Apr 21, 2013

I guess he's supposed to be harnessing whatever level of power Omnislash is at, being that it is the move used to defeat Sephiroth at the very end of the OG. Still, such a disparity between Cloud's strength and his latent ability just irks me. I mean, it's awesome and I'm glad it's there, but it feels off. Even an absent minded and wounded Sephiroth should still be able to demolish Young Cloud in a fight.

And I'll concede that Cloud would be pretty mentally distraught at that point, so he can have his God Mode.

Not up to that bit in CC but at least it does try to show things a little more realistically.

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 21, 2013

It's obvious from the hair alone that Cloud is so badass he defies the laws of physics. :monster:

Ami · Apr 21, 2013

I always thought that, combined with the pain he was feeling from his village being burned down and Tifa, he attacked Sephiroth with a sudden adrenaline rush. There have been stories of people lifting cars far more than their weight with this, so I suspect the same with Cloud in this case.

Roger · Apr 21, 2013

Jiro said:
Question: how does Cloud do this? It is only post-incident that he is exposed to Jenova cells and, from memory, Shinra Security don't undergo Mako treatment. If they do, it still doesn't explain the apparent latent superpower that Cloud needs in order to defeat Sephiroth at this point (whether he is slightly wounded or not).

You know Tifa, Yuffie and the others are normal human too right? And they do amazing physics defying crap as well. Anyway, outside of combat I don't think characters in the game are suppose to be crazy damagesponges. A giant sword in your stomach is a giant sword in your stomach whether you are Sephiroth or not.

Lex · Apr 21, 2013

This is one of those discussions that's really subjective, and depends on if/how you recognise the battle system - i.e. is it a legitimate part of the story or just there for the gameplay? Some fans have a problem with the logic because of what the battle system tells us. In the context of the story, does the battle system really exist? Do the characters form in a straight line and take turns attacking the enemies? Maybe.

But does a number flash up when someone strikes an enemy? Nope. I think you have to put the level, HP, moves, experience points etc out the window when you're talking about overall story scenes (the one we're talking about, Forgotten Capital, etc) and just see the characters.

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 21, 2013

This is definitely a scene CC made better than the original version. Zack's death is another example. If they ever remake FFVII I'd prefer this scene be the way it was in CC. Same with Zack's death.

Unlucky · Apr 21, 2013

Vaan said:
This is definitely a scene CC made better than the original version. Zack's death is another example.

What, with J-pop blaring in the background?

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 21, 2013

Kore said:
What, with J-pop blaring in the background?

Minus the J-pop off course! But seriously, that scene was one of the saddest things I've ever saw. I knew it was coming, and yet I still nearly cried. And the J-pop technically plays during the credits. And it would make no sense to put the J-pop in the remake, so I figured it was a given the J-pop'd be out. :monster:

Unlucky · Apr 21, 2013

I see. I thought you wanted that damn song playing.

I'm ambivalent about Zack's death in CC (the fact that he was able to speak to Cloud, which wasn't present in the OG version). The dialog is important, but the OG version is definitely the sadder one for me.

Lord Noctis · Apr 21, 2013

I for one liked the scene with Zack talking to Cloud. It wasn't shown in the OG, but I can easily blame that on Cloud's fucked up memories and all still works.

But the bits where Zack ascended to heaven or whatever the hell was going on, as well as the J-pop just kinda ruins the whole thing. When Cloud let out his scream at Zack's death it should have done a fade to black and rolled credits.

Arth · Apr 21, 2013

^ Signed. But I would even go farther and let Zack remain dead after he has been shot in the head.It bothers me that the more realistic tone of the scene in OG had to be exchanged for the more anime logic style sequence in CC where Zack can only die after he has spoken his final words.I really detest the new rendition but I can understand why Square Enix changed it.I guess, it fits more into their scheme of attracting japanese twelve year old girls which will already cry when Zack talks to Cloud for the last time...

Lord Noctis · Apr 21, 2013

To be fair, Zack's ability to momentarily survive such injuries is in line with what we've seen from other enhanced persons. Cloud for example was able to not only survive being stabbed repeatedly by Sephiroth, but he was able to get back up and keep fighting too. Even after Yazoo added a gunshot wound to the mix Cloud had enough left for a final charge.

And Sephiroth of course survived impalement from the Buster Sword. Hell, he was still able to walk around, stab a dude, and lift said dude up with one hand. Keep in mind that this was all done while he had massive internal damage, almost certainly including a severed spinal cord, and quite a bit of blood loss I'm sure. He was still relatively human at that point too.

What I'm getting at is that these guys who are enhanced with mako and J-cells are just damn hard to kill.

Even in real world scenarios a gunshot wound to the head does not always immediately result in death, although nobody in real life would be as lucid as Zack was after recieving that wound. But again, the guy has enhancements out the ass, so its believable enough in the context of FFVIIs world.

Blade · Apr 22, 2013

Just to add:

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/circus-arts/adrenaline-strength.htm

Though adrenaline can only take you so far without damaging your muscles/ligaments/immune system/etc.

Also the term "Limit Break" comes from "breaking the natural self-imposed limits" of a human body.

In a wilder example, the manga Berserk, the Berserker Armor changes the human body's "Od flow" and allows it to utilize this "limit break" as many times as needed, reducing pain while repairing/mending/holding the body together despite how internally damaged it becomes (which can become fatal if prolonged).

But because of this change in "Od flow", the armor tends to not facilitate in determining the difference between 'friend' and 'foe', so Guts (the man who wears that armor) loses mental control and despite being able to fight like a monster in and of himself with a giant 300+ lb. sword...he goes "berserk".

Roger · Apr 22, 2013

Quilge Opie said:
To be fair, Zack's ability to momentarily survive such injuries is in line with what we've seen from other enhanced persons. Cloud for example was able to not only survive being stabbed repeatedly by Sephiroth, but he was able to get back up and keep fighting too. Even after Yazoo added a gunshot wound to the mix Cloud had enough left for a final charge.

And Sephiroth of course survived impalement from the Buster Sword. Hell, he was still able to walk around, stab a dude, and lift said dude up with one hand. Keep in mind that this was all done while he had massive internal damage, almost certainly including a severed spinal cord, and quite a bit of blood loss I'm sure. He was still relatively human at that point too.

What I'm getting at is that these guys who are enhanced with mako and J-cells are just damn hard to kill.

Even in real world scenarios a gunshot wound to the head does not always immediately result in death, although nobody in real life would be as lucid as Zack was after recieving that wound. But again, the guy has enhancements out the ass, so its believable enough in the context of FFVIIs world.

True but A: it's still wastes a perfectly dramatic first person as you die, if it doesn't actually effect Zack then why go to black at all? And B it wasn't A gunshot to the head, the soldier unloaded his rifle in his face.

And it's the same with the gameplay sequence, you had this dramatic sequence of the images of his friends in the DMW fading and then in the cutscene he's totally lucid and talking to and about Cloud and Aerith just fine. By itself those scenes aren't bad but clashes with what happened just before pretty bad.

Blade · Apr 22, 2013

Well, if Final Fantasy was rated Cero Z, you would be seeing much more gore...so for now, you'll just have to cope with 'fake injuries'.

Lord Noctis · Apr 22, 2013

Minato Arisato said:
True but A: it's still wastes a perfectly dramatic first person as you die, if it doesn't actually effect Zack then why go to black at all? And B it wasn't A gunshot to the head, the soldier unloaded his rifle in his face.

And it's the same with the gameplay sequence, you had this dramatic sequence of the images of his friends in the DMW fading and then in the cutscene he's totally lucid and talking to and about Cloud and Aerith just fine. By itself those scenes aren't bad but clashes with what happened just before pretty bad.

Uh, the guy never unloads a rifle into Zack's face. After Zack hits the gound the dude fires precisely one shot into his head. Every other bullet sent Zack's way was aimed at his body.

Obsidian Fire · Apr 22, 2013

If you guys think the Zack death scene was drawn out in CC... most anime draw deaths out for way longer. They tend to get whole monologues in, not a sentence or two. I was amazed SE didn't draw it out longer.

Roger · Apr 22, 2013

Obsidian Fire said:
If you guys think the Zack death scene was drawn out in CC... most anime draw deaths out for way longer. They tend to get whole monologues in, not a sentence or two. I was amazed SE didn't draw it out longer.

A monologue wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't preceeded by the two thirdperson and first person seeming deathscenes and the original game doing something different with his death and additional dialogue from Zack after his death. And then a montage of his life from Cloud's perspective. And then the last two things again in ACC. Like, just let go man.

SirVival · Apr 24, 2013

Oh man, this scene just doesnt make any sense at all. Cloud just really needed to active his superpowers for the sake of plot. No matter how countless the interpretations and remakes of this scene are, it still seems to be a cornucopia of new ones. The sad truth is that all of them suck. This scene cannot be explained, not even with the ingame logic. I always felt this particular scene frustratingly irrational. Don't get me wrong. I actually started to shit rainbows the first time I saw it and straight after that I wanted to throw my PS1 to the wall. Anger management issues aside.... As far as my interpretation goes, I would say Cloud's power comes from the raging erection caused by the nearly dead Tifa. It's the only logical explanation I can come up with, as it would at the same time explain Tifa's cowgirl outfit and Cloud's latent perversio with costums.

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 25, 2013

Really, in-game logic explains it easily. Limit Breaks are a real thing in the fictional world of FFVII, and they're similar to Trance from FFIX -- which takes place on another world with a Lifestream.

Trance is caused by a surge in emotion. Really, it's easily explained. :monster:

Novus · Apr 25, 2013

Prince Lex said:
This is one of those discussions that's really subjective, and depends on if/how you recognise the battle system - i.e. is it a legitimate part of the story or just there for the gameplay?

Guess same goes for random encounters, are we supposed to believe half of that crap is really there?
"Hey wanna call by later?"
"well there is a house from hell lurking in the slums so I won't risk it"
"oh yeah i forgot we were living in a Salvador Dali painting."

VII suffers the most from this, the other games get away with it some way or another.

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