Have Weiss cells-G or cells of Jenova?

guisado

guisado

Pro Adventurer
I have a question about Weiss, and if he had Genesis cells.

The question is:

Hojo was looking for a perfect body, pure and unsullied to house the Omega, meaning he did not have Jenova cells or anything like that, but it is assumed that Weiss had-G cells, the cells of Jenova had it?

Because if Gillian had them and these cells were injected cells Genesis and Genesis to Tseviets, some Jenova cells have in Weiss yeah?

Well greetings and thanks
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
The third/final G Report in Dirge of Cerberus states the following:
"Soldiers branded with epithets of color...
These are the hellspawn of "G".
Click to expand...

A WRO soldier on the Shera states the following:
WRO Member: Sir, I've been spending time
analyzing the data retrieved
from the files of former weapons
development administrator Scarlet. >
Deepground. >
It used to be a medical facility
for injured SOLDIER tropps. >
Military personnel would be sent
there for care and rehabilitation. >
However, over time, it evolved into
a laboratory for madmen content on
ignoring all laws of man and nature. >
And supposedly this evolution
took place because of the
existence of one rogue soldier-->
a man known only as "G." >
However, that is all
we were able to retrieve. >
Click to expand...

So from the looks of it, Deepground soldiers, at least those who gain the title of Tsviet, have had Genesis' cells injected into them.

Weiss has the cells of Genesis, but we have to assume that these are an evolution from Jenova cells which no longer qualify as being "Jenova".

Maybe there is a distinction to be made here. Perhaps there is a difference between transferring cells and only transferring genetic material. If Jenova changes your DNA, maybe one would still have the genetic enhancements left even if the other Jenova aspects of the cells were removed.

I'm merely speculating. The story demands that Weiss, whether he was injected with complete cells or only genetic material, has strength gained from Genesis but that it does not qualify as being "of Jenova".
 
guisado

guisado

Pro Adventurer
Mmmm I understand.

and another question:

When Cloud is in the Shinra mansion, is implanted with Jenova cells, or cells of Sephiroth?

And when Genesis and Hollander looking Zack because he has Jenova cells because the cells are worth? Because they onle can use Cloud's cells?

Thank Shademp!!!
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
The Last Pure S Cells

Cells from Cloud, who has undergone the Sephiroth Copy experiments and been implanted with S-Cells. The reason Genesis and Hollander deemed them to be the last pure S-Cells was due to the fact that, after having finished examining Zack’s cells in Scene 09-10 and, prior to Scene 09-14, the cells of the Sephiroth Copies roaming Nibelheim, Cloud was the only one who possessed S-Cells which they had not examined.
Click to expand...

S-Cell

Jenova cells which Hojo treated with a special process for use with the Sephiroth Copies. From the initial “S” and the fact that the cells are used in the Sephiroth Copy experiments, it is surmised that they
are related to Sephiroth’s own cells. Within the game, Genesis believed that his degradation can be halted if he obtains these cells and injects them into his body, but in actuality when a Copy took in the cells, rather than being cured, the process is sped up. However, the cells used then were Zack’s, and it was not attempted with Sephiroth’s pure S-Cells or Cloud’s, which were considered pure.
Click to expand...

Source: Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection


I highly recommend that you read through our material in the Guide Book Translations and Canon of FFVII. This way you can learn the answers yourself. =)
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
On the topic of Weiss and the Tsviets, what happened there was gene mapping, which is different from injection. Basically, what Shademp said above:

Shademp said:
Maybe there is a distinction to be made here. Perhaps there is a difference between transferring cells and only transferring genetic material.
Click to expand...

Though the wording I would use here is "genetic traits" rather than "genetic material," as that seems to imply cells, at least to my ears.

Anyway, gene mapping involves the copying of genetic "code" or "blueprints," if you will, without the actual transfer of the original organism's genetic material.
 
guisado

guisado

Pro Adventurer
And referring to Weiss, he killed Restrictors and had 3 days to find a cure for the virus that they put limiters if he died, after looking at the SND and did not find a response and that's when in those 3 days of searching, Hojo takes control of the minds of Weiss truth?

This happens before the meteorite? Imagine that yes because after SND was destroyed to the principle of Dirge of Cerberus in kalm party that was arranged.

So the question is ... Weiss came to die after 3 days and then with Hojo took control of your mind? or just nothing but enter the SND Weiss, Hojo and took control and made the virus unusable?

If so, was three years being "Hojo" and preparing the plan and Omega Deepground right?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm very interested!
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
Not to mention that Hollander sounds awfully convinced that Cloud has the "Last Pure S Cells", when he underwent the same general treatment as the Sephiroth "copies". If they didn't have suitable cells, why would Cloud have them? I don't mind the idea of them going after Cloud, but the game script shouldn't have made Hollander sound so certain.

I would not be surprised if, when the game scene was made, the writers had just completely forgotten about the "black cloaks" and only remembered that Cloud had received Jenova- oh wait, S Cells. Then they tried to patch up this plot point with the game guide. (Sorry for being a broken record with my default "the-writers-are-forgetful-and-inconsistent" speculations)

There are so many off-screen events with Genesis and Hollander that are only mentioned in guides. It's bad enough that some games are made with needlessly complicated quests that require you to buy a gameplay guide in order to figure out. When your story needs a guide outside of the game, you done f*cked up.

A remade version of Crisis Core should include scenes from the perspective of Genesis. It would not be a crime to move away from Zack's perspective for the sake of making the player more invested and to make the story more coherent.
 
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S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
guisado said:
And referring to Weiss, he killed Restrictors and had 3 days to find a cure for the virus that they put limiters if he died, after looking at the SND and did not find a response and that's when in those 3 days of searching, Hojo takes control of the minds of Weiss truth?

This happens before the meteorite? Imagine that yes because after SND was destroyed to the principle of Dirge of Cerberus in kalm party that was arranged.

So the question is ... Weiss came to die after 3 days and then with Hojo took control of your mind? or just nothing but enter the SND Weiss, Hojo and took control and made the virus unusable?

If so, was three years being "Hojo" and preparing the plan and Omega Deepground right?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm very interested!
Click to expand...

Before he dies, Hojo uploads his mind onto the worldwide network so that an element of his consciousness can still exist.

When Meteorfall occurs, the network is broken and Hojo's 'data' is scattered.

However, a short while before Dirge of Cerberus begins, the network is restored and the fragments of Hojo's data are reassembled.

Around this time, the Tsviets kill the last Restrictor and the HJ-Virus is activated, giving Weiss three days to live. In order to find a cure, Weiss SNDs himself. While his mind searches the worldwide network, it is overrun by Hojo's data.

Posing as Weiss, Hojo tricks Nero into unleashing Omega under the guise that it will eradicate the virus.

Hence Dirge of Cerberus.
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
S and G said:
In order to find a cure, Weiss SNDs himself. While his mind searches the worldwide network, it is overrun by Hojo's data.

Posing as Weiss, Hojo tricks Nero into unleashing Omega under the guise that it will eradicate the virus.

Hence Dirge of Cerberus.
Click to expand...
I can't recall reading this part anywhere else before. Makes sense to me, but what's the source? I've played the game and watched Online Mode cutscenes, but the timeline of the playonline scenes always felt foggy to me. I thought that Online Mode happened right after Meteorfall and that the Deepground fought each other for three years before breaking free.
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I always had gotten the impression that Hojo's fragments didn't possess Weiss until shortly before the events of DC. Hojo makes it sound like the Network being restored is what allowed his fragments to reassemble and finally take action.

Seems like Kitase implied the same thing in the interview from the DC Complete Guide.
 
S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
Shademp said:
I can't recall reading this part anywhere else before. Makes sense to me, but what's the source? I've played the game and watched Online Mode cutscenes, but the timeline of the playonline scenes always felt foggy to me. I thought that Online Mode happened right after Meteorfall and that the Deepground fought each other for three years before breaking free.
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Which part of it is it you need cited?

The original game has Hojo explaining that he overran Weiss mind after he found it in the network. He also explains that his fragments came together when the network was restored.

The Ultimanias reveal that the Revival Festival was to celebrate the restoration of the network hence in was shortly before DC.

The online game explains that the virus would be released upon the final Restrictir's death. It also states (either Usher or the officer) that the virus would give him three days to live.

Put it all together and you have the story. It means that the Restrictors were still in charge of DG to an extent until well after Advent Children.
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
S and G said:
Which part of it is it you need cited?
Click to expand...

This part:
S and G said:
Posing as Weiss, Hojo tricks Nero into unleashing Omega under the guise that it will eradicate the virus.
Click to expand...
This wording is what makes me raise an eyebrow. We are not explicitly told what the exact lie was. It could be that the virus was void and would not kill Weiss again, if revived. The lies Hojo told Nero, whatever they were, could have been phrased "it will eradicate the virus" or "it will revive your brother". Both phrases lead to the same goal, but I would be weary of saying for certain which "lie" was used against Nero.
*EDIT: The key here being that, when Vincent and Yuffie find Weiss in the "throne room", I'm not sure if Weiss is already dead or just dying.*


I may be forgetting some important piece of expository dialogue by Nero throughout the game, but I'm still confused as to what Nero knew. Did he know that Omega would leave the planet and take all the Lifestream with it? I suppose it doesn't matter, as long as he believes that he will be alongside his brother once again.
*EDIT: Be patient with me as I was very tired when writing this and right now I'm so mentally exhausted I barely know left from right. Excuse me if I'm being less than moderately intelligent.*


Technically there isn't an "Ultimania" guide for Dirge of Cerberus. The closest thing we have is the "Dirge of Cerberus Complete Guide", which focuses 99% on explaining the gameplay and barely anything that explains the characters, story, dialogue like is common in the Ultimanias. I sure wish we had a proper Ultimania for DC though.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So, for clarification, the Restrictors died shortly before DC began, Weiss went into the newly restored Network, Hojo's fragments possessed him, and -- after negotiating an agreement with Nero -- Hojo recorded the "garrotted and impaled" speech for Nero to play a few days later after Weiss's body had already died, unknown to all but Nero.
 
S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
Sorry, you are correct that the wording has jumped a few steps.

In the original game, Nero knows that his brother has died. Hojo explains his plan was to reach the cosmos. To do this he had to awaken Omega. To control Omega, he needed an untainted vessel strong enough to contain it. The strongest vessel he could think of was a Deepground SOLDIER. Taking over Weiss, he convinced Nero that the way to revive his brother was to gather enough untainted Lifestream. Why Weiss had died in the first place is not revealed in DC.

The explanation is found in the online game. The revival of the worldwide network coincides with the Tsviets defeating the last Restrictor which also coincides with the WRO finding secret DG files and opening it up.

Weiss must have been dead by the time Vincent gets to the thrown room as DGs plan has been active for a number of weeks by then. The virus did kill Weiss but his body was awoken again by Omega. Otherwise, Hojo's plan made no sense.

Nero knew that Omega would awaken inside Weiss and expected that his revived brother would remain on the planet. He had no reason to suspect anything else. The overall purpose of Omega may or may not have been made aware to him.

Also please note that the Restrictors didn't all die at the same time and that it is unlikely that the events shown in the online game depict the death of the last Restrictor.
 
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Theozilla

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I figured it was most appropriate to do so rather than create a new thread.

But basically my issue is that even after reading through the thread I am still a little uncertain on what's canon info.

But my understanding is that Weiss and all the Tsviets (and only the Tsviets?) were injected/grafted with Genesis' genes (but not cells though?). But since Weiss was considered "pure" from not having Jenova cells, that means being injected with Genesis' genes is considered different from having Jenova cells? But since Nero was considered impure does that mean he was also injected with Jenova cells (presumably through the normal SOLDIER creation process?) in addition to his tainted/corrupted Lifestream powers? So was Weiss was the only Tsviet to not have Jenova cells but still have Genesis' genes? And the rest of the normal DEEPGROUND SOLDIERs did have the standard SOLDIER treatment (exposure to Mako and Jenova cells), correct?
 
Theozilla

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Wolf_ said:
I personally think it was just a massive oversight in the plot.
Click to expand...

Well my question wasn't really inquiring for a Doylistic answer/commentary. My interest was/is more in reconciling/sorting the information on a Watsonian level.
 
Starling

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Nero was considered impure because of the whole stagnant mako and associated darkness powers. I mean, he and Weiss are siblings so it has to do with the specific experiments they were put through. That particular bit of DoC's plot is probably the most inconsistent and self-contradicting issue in the compilation, so I prefer to ignore it until I can come up with an acceptable compromise.
 
Theozilla

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Starling said:
Nero was considered impure because of the whole stagnant mako and associated darkness powers. I mean, he and Weiss are siblings so it has to do with the specific experiments they were put through. That particular bit of DoC's plot is probably the most inconsistent and self-contradicting issue in the compilation, so I prefer to ignore it until I can come up with an acceptable compromise.
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I agree there was a lot inconsistency in DoC (and is the weakest entry of the three compilation games, particularly storywise), I am just trying to see if there is a way one can make reconcile/make sense of it all.

But in regards to the "purity" concept, didn't "purity" also have to do with Jenova cells as well? As seen with the abduction of civilians who weren't "tainted" with Jenova, as in they never had or were cured of Geostigma (presuming "curing" Geostigma completely removes Jenova cells)?

So with that in mind, does not that not mean then, Weiss also having Genesis' genes/cells is somehow different from having Jenova cells?

Also, if Nero's "impurity" only came from his stagnant mako/darkness powers, does also that indicate none of the Tsviets had Jenova cells (presuming that the difference between Genesis' genes/cells and Jenova stands) but the rest of DEEPGROUND (some of whom were former-normal SOLDIERS members IIRC) did have Jenova cells?
 
Starling

Starling

Pro Adventurer
The best compromise I can come up with on short notice is that Deepground was modelled after project G but didn't include G cells until the degradation issue was sorted out. By then, whatever cured Genesis somehow made him "pure" in relation to the whole Omega thing even if he still has his own strain of Jenova cells afterwards. The whole purity thing seems to be about the lifestream more than it is about Jenova so maybe there are exceptions to J-cells making people too impure or the fact that G cells were likely exempt from Sephiroth's influence has to do with it.
 
Theozilla

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Starling said:
The best compromise I can come up with on short notice is that Deepground was modelled after project G but didn't include G cells until the degradation issue was sorted out. By then, whatever cured Genesis somehow made him "pure" in relation to the whole Omega thing even if he still has his own strain of Jenova cells afterwards. The whole purity thing seems to be about the lifestream more than it is about Jenova so maybe there are exceptions to J-cells making people too impure or the fact that G cells were likely exempt from Sephiroth's influence has to do with it.
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Yeah, it seems the only way to reconcile Weiss' purity with him also having G-cells/genes, is that the nature of G-cells/genes (whether or not they came before or after Genesis' cure I suppose is one way to reconcile stuff) were somehow fundamentally different from S/J-cells that they don't count as being "tainted/corrupted" by Jenova (which Geostigma infectees did count as).
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
If I remember correctly, it wasn't that Genesis's actual cells were used -- just that his genes were mapped onto the Tsviets. Presumably, that means some kind of genetic tinkering in which some of their genes were altered to match the "structure" (for lack of a better word) of Genesis's genes, like following blueprints.

That's why Weiss can have the genes while remaining pure. He has the genetic information, but not the actual impure genetic material.

As for Deepground SOLDIERs, the regular gun-toting/materia-casting units only have mako enhancement, like the original SOLDIERs whose existence predates Genesis and Sephiroth. There are Jenova-type SOLDIERs in their ranks, but they joined after Meteorfall.
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
A theory. Stagnant Mako is how the Planet isolates JENOVA cells it finds in the Lifestream, it's one of its self defence mechanisms. When it switches Planet via Omega, the stagnant Mako is supposed to be left behind, so as not to carry the infection to its new host. It's like, say, severing a limb to stop infection from spreading. And that's why stagnant Mako normally consumes everything, an effort to destroy the JENOVA/prevent it from escaping into a host.

Nero was exposed to stagnant Mako to see what would happen (normally, death), but by some freakish coincidence the side effect allowed him control over it, but meant he also was exposed to the JENOVA cells contained by it.

Weiss was not exposed to Stagnant Mako, but the purer version, but had a much higher tolerance that normal for some reason. Normally, overdose of Mako leads to mutations, Mako poisoning, or death, but he happened to have a far higher tolerance than was normal for some reason, and didn't need to be bolstered by raw JENOVA Cells as was usually done. He's just a freak of nature that could absorb high levels of Mako without the normal ill effects.
 
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