Why did Zack & Cloud flee to Midgar

SirVival

SirVival

Pro Adventurer
Oh it was wonderful, I got so much done. Happy to hear that the FFXV has been so well received and cared for, I hope the same is going to happen to the FFVII remake. It seems like SE is also delivering the usual, is it true that the first part is delayed to 2019?

In the meantime I'd like to leave you with a question: Could somebody explain to me why Zack and Cloud tried to escape to Midgar, of all places, after the Nibelheim experiments? I mean it just makes so much sense to run away from the Shinra.... to the Shinra headquarters. Has this been explained somewhere?
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Well the slums seem fairly easy to disappear in, and it would also offer the most opportunities for work.

And for Zack there's Aerith, of course, though you could argue how much of that was definitely motivation in the OG vs Crisis Core.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Crisis Core has SOLDIERs go AWOL and get hunted down by Shin-Ra all the time but in the original game that was not neccesarily the case. Zack only decided to go merc at the last stretch of his journey, initially Zack may have set out to report back to his CO and argue his case. He didn't know where the killorders were coming from, Shin-Ra is a big global organisation, Zack probably has friends and enemies in it.
 
SirVival

SirVival

Pro Adventurer
ForceStealer said:
Well the slums seem fairly easy to disappear in, and it would also offer the most opportunities for work.

And for Zack there's Aerith, of course, though you could argue how much of that was definitely motivation in the OG vs Crisis Core.
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Aerith is a valid point. But to disappear in the slums? Man, didn't he plan to become a mercenary? You can't really avoid exposure whilst doing that. I bet no one would have noticed that suddenly there is an over-powered mercenary, who looks very much like the former SOLDIER, running errands around the city/world :monster: Not to mention, his intention was meeting with the Ancient/Cetra, who was under surveillance anyway. Hardly a well thought out plan, as far as the staying out of Shinra's radar is considered - I'd even go as far as to say it seems to be one of the worst elements in the whole plot !

I suppose I should make a proper thread for this discussion in order not to derail this thread any longer? Edit: oukey-dokey, here it is: https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20371
 
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SirVival

SirVival

Pro Adventurer
Why did Zack and Cloud decide to flee to Midgar after the Nibelheim experiments? I mean, it seems quite awkward to me: escaping from the Shinra company's mansion in Nibelheim to the only place in the world, where you probably shouldn't go. Midgar even has the Shinra headquarters, ffs. Considering the line of occupation Zack was planning on doing, it doesn't seem like he was planning on hiding in there either. This is something I never gave much thought about, but in the wake of this realisation, I'd like to see if someone happens to know the exact reasoning for this brain-fart of a plan (imo)? Any discussion is also very welcome.
 
Tennyo

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
If the A-Team can make a living as soldiers of fortune while wanted by the government, why couldn't Zack? :monster:
 
X-SOLDIER

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
(Did some magic and moved the relevant poasts into this thread, so some of them seem to appear oddly, because of chronological sorting, but that'll put all the stuff where it ought be at least :monster: )





X :neo:
 
T

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
SirVival said:
Oh it was wonderful, I got so much done. Happy to hear that the FFXV has been so well received and cared for, I hope the same is going to happen to the FFVII remake. It seems like SE is also delivering the usual, is it true that the first part is delayed to 2019?
Click to expand...

For starters, Square Enix never said the Remake was coming out this year, since it only started development three years ago(2015). Not to mention that since KH3 was in much further development beforehand and coming out this year(if it's not delayed to 2019 itself), it makes more sense, given the trailers we've been getting of the latter than the former, that Nomura is focusing on completing that first and then move on to continue focusing on the Remake and whatever else he has on his plate.

Plus, 2019 is next year...though in retrospect, I think Part 1 of the Remake will be coming out in 2020.

SirVival said:
In the meantime I'd like to leave you with a question: Could somebody explain to me why Zack and Cloud tried to escape to Midgar, of all places, after the Nibelheim experiments? I mean it just makes so much sense to run away from the Shinra.... to the Shinra headquarters. Has this been explained somewhere?
Click to expand...

SirVival said:
ForceStealer said:
Well the slums seem fairly easy to disappear in, and it would also offer the most opportunities for work.

And for Zack there's Aerith, of course, though you could argue how much of that was definitely motivation in the OG vs Crisis Core.
Click to expand...

Aerith is a valid point. But to disappear in the slums? Man, didn't he plan to become a mercenary? You can't really avoid exposure whilst doing that. I bet no one would have noticed that suddenly there is an over-powered mercenary, who looks very much like the former SOLDIER, running errands around the city/world. Not to mention, his intention was meeting with the Ancient/Cetra, who was under surveillance anyway. Hardly a well thought out plan, as far as the staying out of Shinra's radar is considered - I'd even go as far as to say it seems to be one of the worst elements in the whole plot !

I suppose I should make a proper thread for this discussion in order not to derail this thread any longer? Edit: oukey-dokey, here it is: https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20371
Click to expand...

I think Zack's main goals of returning to Midgar is one; reunite with Aerith to let her know that he's okay and to apologise, and two; since he's pretty much a traitor in ShinRa's eyes despite not having done anything wrong(not to mention that him and other survivors saying that Sephiroth went insane and had been killed would ruin the Company's reputation, so it makes more sense for them to kill him to keep the secrets away from the public), he needs a new job and so did Cloud as well as looking after him until he recovered from Mako Poisoning.
 
Blade

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
You'd think with all the situations Zack had running in to the Turks, they could've pulled him a few favors, especially regarding Aerith.
 
T

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Well, Tseng did order the Turks to retrieve Zack and Cloud alive since number one, Tseng had all of those letters from Aerith to give to Zack(except the last one), number two, Tseng and Zack are friends, number three, he, Reno, Rude and the Player Turk in BC didn't want Zack, or anyone else in Hojo's clutches, and number four, the Turks, given the time-line of Crisis Core and Before Crisis, they were already edging towards in becoming fugitives themselves no thanks to Fuhito.
 
Lestat

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
I always just assumed the plan was to stay on the run and recuperate while travelling toward midair before ultimately taking the fight to the president directly.
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
However hard it is to stay unnoticed in Midgar, it's a lot easier than somewhere like Corel. Shinra needed Corneo to find the very distinctive AVALANCHE team, and even then they only narrowed it down to the sector before Corneo's scout was caught.

The Turks are actually on the run themselves when Zack is on the run, so the surveillance is probably not active. But he doesn't have to walk in her front door, he could settle in somewhere and assess the situation first.
 
Tennyo

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Let's also keep in mind that even if BC didn't happen I still don't believe Zack and Cloud had anything to worry about from the Turks. If anything, they were trying to SAVE them. Tseng and Cissnei especially; they were Zack's friends. I imagine they lied about Zack and Cloud's whereabouts.

It was the actual military that was hunting them down. They military is going to have a harder time searching through a city as huge as Midgar than spies who are on the fugitive's side.

Granted, this probably wasn't Zack's thought process on the matter. Nevermind idk :monster:
 
leadmyskeptic

leadmyskeptic

Pro Adventurer
Zack is not smart. I'm hesitant to even acknowledge the Compilation, but with or without it, he's portrayed as your archetypal flippant, silly young hero with a "good heart", who doesn't always think things through and thus gets himself into trouble. They are hitchhiking in the back of the unnamed 'Old man's truck when we see them, so one could make the case that he stuck his thumb out and that's where the first ride was heading, but that doesn't seem to really pan out. Going by the original game script of the flashback, it seems like Zack is heading there almost exclusively because it has someplace he can stay (Aerith's), although as soon as he says it out loud, he realizes it's not gonna work (again, not smart). Why not with his 'rents in Gongaga? I dunno.

Zack: I know what I'm gonna do. I got a place I can crash for a while. No wait, the mother lives there, too...*scratches head*. Guess that's out.

It's then that he dismisses his original idea and comes up with his Mercenary plan. Going by all of this, I think the original sentiment that this was a foolish plan is accurate, only rather than being a flaw or plot hole, actually holds up. It gives us an insight into Zack's character.
 
Sasseli

Sasseli

~*:Newbie:*~
I love that analysis, leadmyskeptic! It sounds very in-character to me and makes it all the more tragic.
 
X-SOLDIER

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I think that that's one of the things that Crisis Core still managed to portray really well. Zack is often hopelessly optimistic, even in the face of stupidly overwhelming odds. He just kind of gets carried around by his emotions rather than his logic a good portion of the time, and Midgar feels like he's just taking one more step in a direction of things that he just expects to work out if he just puts his mind to it. Except that this time it doesn't.

Even in the OG, you get that sense from the way that Cloud acts in his sort of aloof projection of not caring as a way of emulating the confidence he felt from Zack without really having the specifics of strategy to back it up. I think that this really gets into the whole core of "Cloud is acting cool, but being dorky because he doesn't realize that the cool person that he's emulating is actually pretty dorky" thing that they describe about Cloud elsewhere when talking about the Remake.




X :neo:
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I think that may be harsh. AVALANCHE didn't appear to find Cloud's identity as
a mercenary implausible or so notable that it's a liability. Just do simple jobs that pay bills and avoid anything spectacular and he could be okay.

Zack is kind of like Snow, in that he projects more optimism than he feels.

When he goes to Gongaga, he doesn't drive right up to the door, he parks at the reactor and intends to scout it out. He knows there's probably an ambush at his house, but wants to check it out anyway to see if they're okay. He'd probably do something similar with Aeris.
 
T

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Clement Rage said:
I think that may be harsh. AVALANCHE didn't appear to find Cloud's identity as
a mercenary implausible or so notable that it's a liability. Just do simple jobs that pay bills and avoid anything spectacular and he could be okay.

Zack is kind of like Snow, in that he projects more optimism than he feels.

When he goes to Gongaga, he doesn't drive right up to the door, he parks at the reactor and intends to scout it out. He knows there's probably an ambush at his house, but wants to check it out anyway to see if they're okay. He'd probably do something similar with Aeris.
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Yeah, but Zack at least doesn't sent volunteers to their unneccessary deaths or foolishly goes up against monsters without thinking. He at least has some brains, and he saves more people like during the Genesis attack in Midgar and had protected Cloud at the cost of his life.

Not to mention that Zack to me is very lovable.

Snow is an annoying guy who gets people killed, rants on being a hero, saved much less people who still die, and couldn't even save his girlfriend and gets on his future-sister-in-law's bad case. Man, even Noel didn't like him that much either.
 
Blade

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
The guy owns a SMART PHONE... you'd think he'd have enough sense to use it when in a pinch.

Not ONLY that... but this is a guy who manages to beat the worst Genesis has to offer.

Do NOT tell me that an army of Shinra grunts with guns can stop this man. Please, don't tell me this.

At least tell me they pumped the grunts full of drugs or something.

Actually, now that I think on it, how many soldiers DID Cloud go up against compared to Zack?

You'd think there'd at least be something there that exaggerated that scene a bit more than necessary.
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Blade said:
The guy owns a SMART PHONE... you'd think he'd have enough sense to use it when in a pinch.
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This would be one of those cases where the technology of the original game is incompatible with the Compilation. :monster:

Blade said:
Do NOT tell me that an army of Shinra grunts with guns can stop this man.
Click to expand...

Well, it was an army.
 
JechtShotMK9

JechtShotMK9

The Sublimely Magnificent One
AKA
Kamiccolo9
How would pumping the soldiers full of drugs make their guns any more effective?

I mean, getting shot in the head is getting shot in the head.
 
JechtShotMK9

JechtShotMK9

The Sublimely Magnificent One
AKA
Kamiccolo9
Ergo Proxy said:
JechtShotMK9 said:
How would pumping the soldiers full of drugs make their guns any more effective?

I mean, getting shot in the head is getting shot in the head.
Click to expand...

Angrier bullets?
Click to expand...

bullet-bill.png
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
There's more to the Shinra military than the one hit kill MPs. Zack is surprised to discover they're tougher than he realised "How could I be having trouble against these guys?"

And even so, I hear the 1,000 soldiers mission is tricky.

Re the phone, I think that's just a gameplay thing so you can keep going on missions. Otherwise he should just dump it to avoid being tracked.
 
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