Cloud and Tseng's Relationship

S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
This thread is intended to address the relationship between Cloud and Tseng throughout the Compilation, in particular when they cross paths during the original game. Now, the short history between the two was not given until later in the Compilation (specifically Crisis Core) and thus for the purposes of a play through of FF7, it made no real difference. It would, however, in a remake.

And, this is why...


During the main game, it was explained who Cloud's character (ie persona) actually was. Cloud as a person until his fall into the Lifestream, through the powerful and manipulative Jenova cells in his body, was made up of a combination of his own memories, Zack's memories of the same scenarios, Zack's personality, Tifa's memories, and Tifa's memories of who Cloud was as a kid.

This explained how he knew so much about the Nibelheim incident. Zack's memories and personality (as well as a deep trauma actually experienced by Cloud) had caused Cloud to believe his participation in the event was through Zack's role instead of his own. This was combined with his own less-traumatic memories, such as visiting his mother or Tifa's house, and the whole picture fell into place about the event. Zack's vibrant personality can be seen during this episode when Cloud recalls it. It is also seen in certain things Cloud says or does during the main game which are not consistent with his cold, confused exterior. This is noticed by both Tifa and Aerith. Segments of Cloud's childhood are recalled thanks to the Jenova cells reacting with Tifa's memory (the 'promise' scene for example). As an extension of this, Tifa's memory of the child-like Cloud who always got himself into fights had a large impact on the character of Cloud - especially at the beginning of the main game.

Now, with all that in mind, consider Cloud's recollection of everything that happened with Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident. For the majority of the event, Zack and Cloud were present at the same time in Sephiroth's company. Cloud, however, recalled these events through Zack's eyes. In addition, Cloud was aware of conversations and events that took place out with his presence such as the Reactor scene or the basement scene. Prior to the whole story being told, Cloud also describes Sephiroth in the way that Zack would ('we were war buddies', etc) rather than what his own non-existent relationship had been.

It can therefore be concluded that Cloud's 'fabricated' memories and feelings towards Sephiroth for the Nibelheim incident were that of Zack's, and not actually his own. His anger is due to his 'friend' killing his mother and the townspeople. But, they were not friends, which brings me to my main point.

Consider now the scenario during Crisis Core that takes place at Modeoheim with Zack, Cloud and Tseng. Using the same principals discussed above, replacing Sephiroth with Tseng, can you see where this would become important for their interactions during FF7?

If the theory holds, Cloud should recall the whole event through Zack's eyes. Not only would this involve Genesis and Hollander inside the Mako mine (where Cloud actually shows up), he should see Tseng through Zack's eyes as he sees Sephiroth through Zack's eyes for the Nibelheim incident. This means that, since Tseng didn't betray either Zack or Cloud, Cloud should have Zack's memories as Tseng being a friend and a very familiar face. Another of his so-called 'war buddies'.

This changes things for Cloud and Tseng.

Digressing slightly, theoretically, Cloud should know about Genesis and Angeal through Zack's recollection of the Modeoheim event.


Discuss...
 
Vendel

Vendel

Banned
S and G said:
This thread is intended to address the relationship between Cloud and Tseng throughout the Compilation, in particular when they cross paths during the original game. Now, the short history between the two was not given until later in the Compilation (specifically Crisis Core) and thus for the purposes of a play through of FF7, it made no real difference. It would, however, in a remake.

And, this is why...


During the main game, it was explained who Cloud's character (ie persona) actually was. Cloud as a person until his fall into the Lifestream, through the powerful and manipulative Jenova cells in his body, was made up of a combination of his own memories, Zack's memories of the same scenarios, Zack's personality, Tifa's memories, and Tifa's memories of who Cloud was as a kid.

This explained how he knew so much about the Nibelheim incident. Zack's memories and personality (as well as a deep trauma actually experienced by Cloud) had caused Cloud to believe his participation in the event was through Zack's role instead of his own. This was combined with his own less-traumatic memories, such as visiting his mother or Tifa's house, and the whole picture fell into place about the event. Zack's vibrant personality can be seen during this episode when Cloud recalls it. It is also seen in certain things Cloud says or does during the main game which are not consistent with his cold, confused exterior. This is noticed by both Tifa and Aerith. Segments of Cloud's childhood are recalled thanks to the Jenova cells reacting with Tifa's memory (the 'promise' scene for example). As an extension of this, Tifa's memory of the child-like Cloud who always got himself into fights had a large impact on the character of Cloud - especially at the beginning of the main game.

Now, with all that in mind, consider Cloud's recollection of everything that happened with Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident. For the majority of the event, Zack and Cloud were present at the same time in Sephiroth's company. Cloud, however, recalled these events through Zack's eyes. In addition, Cloud was aware of conversations and events that took place out with his presence such as the Reactor scene or the basement scene. Prior to the whole story being told, Cloud also describes Sephiroth in the way that Zack would ('we were war buddies', etc) rather than what his own non-existent relationship had been.

It can therefore be concluded that Cloud's 'fabricated' memories and feelings towards Sephiroth for the Nibelheim incident were that of Zack's, and not actually his own. His anger is due to his 'friend' killing his mother and the townspeople. But, they were not friends, which brings me to my main point.

Consider now the scenario during Crisis Core that takes place at Modeoheim with Zack, Cloud and Tseng. Using the same principals discussed above, replacing Sephiroth with Tseng, can you see where this would become important for their interactions during FF7?

If the theory holds, Cloud should recall the whole event through Zack's eyes. Not only would this involve Genesis and Hollander inside the Mako mine (where Cloud actually shows up), he should see Tseng through Zack's eyes as he sees Sephiroth through Zack's eyes for the Nibelheim incident. This means that, since Tseng didn't betray either Zack or Cloud, Cloud should have Zack's memories as Tseng being a friend and a very familiar face. Another of his so-called 'war buddies'.

This changes things for Cloud and Tseng.

Digressing slightly, theoretically, Cloud should know about Genesis and Angeal through Zack's recollection of the Modeoheim event.


Discuss...
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Mr_Spock.jpg



Fascinating.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Ah, Vendel. So arch.

Your logic is impeccable, Moe.
I suppose one needs to consider the circumstances under which Cloud first encounters Tseng in the game. This takes place after he meets Reno. Reno, if I remember rightly, asks something like "Don't you know me?" This could merely be suggesting that Cloud ought to recognise the Turk uniform, but it could also be suggesting that Reno recognises Cloud. Cloud's response is rather hazy - he seems to remember something, but he's not sure what.
I think that this conversation from the original game allows for the possibility that some of Zack's/original Cloud's memories are stronger than others. Reno's pretty noticeable; everybody who worked for Shinra, and certainly everybody in the army at HQ, would have known who he was.
More importantly, Cloud does not seem to recognise Aerith or to have any strong feelings for her initially. The only way this could make sense within the scenario the gamemakers constructed would be if Zack never talked about her to Cloud. This seems unlikely, but I'm willing to accept it.
By the time the reconstituted Cloud first encounters Tseng, he's become emotionally involved with Aerith, seen that the Turks are after her, watched them shoot at her, and had his hatred of Shinra exacerbated. Then when he and Tseng do meet, Cloud and his friends are trying to stop Shinra from squishing thousands of people to death; their own lives are on the line, and Tseng's gloating at them from a helicopter and punching Aerith in the face. It would be difficult for any memories he had of Tseng as a friend to survive that experience, whether those memories were his own, or Zack's.
 
S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
I agree with what you're saying, LA, but I believe Cloud's interaction with Tseng should be different than to his interaction with anyone else. This is because the only important characters that Zack and Cloud were with AT THE SAME TIME were Sephiroth, Tseng and Tifa. Sephiroth doesn't need explaining and it was already pointed out in the game that his relationship to Tifa was special anyway as many of his memories of her were formed from her and not wholly Zack. This stuff comes up all the time when I'm writing. All the Turks and Rufus should know who Cloud is due to the high priority of Zack's breakout of the Nibelheim lab. So, with everyone except Tseng, it's more about them recognising Cloud as didn't have any prior interactions with them, and especially not in Zack's presence.

My point is that for the people Zack and Cloud spent time with together, Cloud should feel towards them what Zack felt (except Tifa). Hence, he should see Tseng in a positive light.
 
Ite

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
S and G said:
My point is that for the people Zack and Cloud spent time with together, Cloud should feel towards them what Zack felt (except Tifa). Hence, he should see Tseng in a positive light.
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I think we need to take into account that - even if Cloud's mind was perfectly fine - he would still be an enemy of the state. Tseng is an operative of Shinra -- a dangerous operative, one with very little moral scruples, and that's common knowledge even among Shinra employees. How would going on one or two missions with him prevent either Cloud or Zack from treating him as a high profile enemy?

Also, Cloud's reasons for hating Shinra and Sephiroth are not inherited from Zack, they're genuine. If someone he looked up to as much as Sephiroth could turn on him, what reason would he have to cling to another acquaintanceship he made while under the employ of the enemy?

Just my two cents.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Oh good, ite's joined the discussion.

Cloud, I grant you.
Zack, Crisis Core persona, is the eternal optimist. "Man, Shinra make the best stuff!" A line delivered with boundless enthusiasm. Possibly because he is also part of the 'stuff' that Shinra made? If it had been Crisis Core Zack on that pillar, the conversation with Tseng would have gone very differently (and Tseng might have been deader a lot sooner.)
 
M

Madame Mayor

Banned
I think this is going a bit to far with what memories he has of Zack's that he replaces himself with.

Cloud doesn't think every moment in his life that he was with Zack that he was in Zack's place. Just the Nibleheim incident. If you were to ask messed up Cloud what he remember about joining SOLDIER, for example, he'd just be blank. The imperfections in the lie that his memories are based of off is how it's so easy for Sephiroth to toy with him. Cloud doesn't have clear memories of the past, it's all messed up and out of place.
 
Ryushikaze

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Another thing to consider is that what was Glommed from Zack was that which was convenient for being a puppet, and other things either ignored or suppressed. Remembering Tseng fondly or even well might not be part of that, and Genesis is probably not something Seph wants anyone knowing about.
In a remake, however, it would give Cloud as Exposition a bit more to do. He remembers the Turks just fine, just not particular Turks. In the remake, he could introduce them by way of rememberence.

Addendum: And those points were already made. It's what I get for going off and reading something else before hitting submit.
 
Tennyo

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I think the idea of Cloud remembering Genesis and Angeal and Tseng to the extent that Zack does is a stretch. His memories all revolve around Nibelheim, which was the huge defining moment that basically set everything that happens in FFVII into motion.

Everything else was blocked. If he does remember Genesis, he probably doesn't think it to be important. Cloud was never a huge part of the whole Genesis debacle; as far as he is concerned it was just another mission from his grunt (maybe early SOLDIER) days. Probably one of many. That's if he even remembers it.

I do have to say that the idea of the Turks remembering Cloud is intriguing, though. I don't think Reno or Rude would have any memory, but Tseng certainly might. In fact, was that hinted at in the novella? I'll have to go reread that part.
 
X-SOLDIER

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
While I have to agree that Cloud may have more mixed interactions towards Tseng in a remake, I think it would be more colored by the present situations then by his own muddled memory, especially since, like Aerith, it doesn't suit to assist the Jenova Cells that are generating his muddled little frames of reference.

What would be interesting would be if along the way to the Northern Crater, if they made their way through the ruined remains of Modeoheim near the beginning of Disc 2. Nothing incredibly special would need to happen there, but with the little bits about Icicle Inn giving some insight into ShinRa's Science Department's past just a little earlier, it would be interesting to gain a little bit more insight towards other ShinRa related events, and help escalate Cloud's fragile mental stability just before Sephiroth uses him to obtain the Black Materia.

At the very least it provides an avenue for a progressive build up towards a more understandable alliance with the Turks, and possibly a few more plot hooks into the content of the other games, without drastically altering anything from the original story.


X :neo:
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
This is an interesting idea. I'm kind of half and half sold on it. Most of this has to do with the debate of who exactly is copying other people's memories of Cloud onto him. If it's just his J-cells copying portions of Zack onto Cloud so that he can actually function, I would say that it's possible that somewhere in the back of his head, there are memories of Tseng, Genesis, Modeoheim etc. Then at some point, Sephiroth gets involved with the process and starts repressing certain parts of Cloud's memory. If Sephiroth is the one responsible for the J-cells copying Zack onto Cloud, I wouldn't think Cloud would have them at all.

What I'm more curious about is what happens to Cloud's memories after the OG. In the Lifestream sequence, Tifa helps Cloud fix his memory. However, there are only four memories she fixes/Cloud regains. My question is, what happens to all of his other memories? Does Cloud get all of his real ones back? Does he fill in the gaps with some of Zack's memories? It's never said. The reason why I'm asking is because since Sephiroth repressed Cloud's memories, I think it would make sense that he could repress some of Zack's memories that Cloud has. If Sephiroth was repressing some of Zack's memories, I would think that Cloud would start remembering them as well as his own memories. So I think Cloud could start remembering Tseng, Genesis, Modeoheim, etc. because he was actually there. Only, it wouldn't happen in the OG, but after it.
Derringer Meryl said:
I do have to say that the idea of the Turks remembering Cloud is intriguing, though. I don't think Reno or Rude would have any memory, but Tseng certainly might. In fact, was that hinted at in the novella? I'll have to go reread that part.
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Oh, the Turks remember Cloud all right. If you think BC and LO are canon, they were the first ones to see Cloud go "berserk" with a sword as a trooper. They then saw him go "berserk" with the Buster Sword verses Sephiroth in the Nebiheim Reactor. They also saw him fling Sephiroth over the edge.

In CC, they've been chasing Cloud and Zack all the way from Nebilheim and are determined to get to them first so that the army doesn't kill them. Also, if you take BC as canon, the Turks aren't even working for Shin-Ra at this point. In fact, Shin-Ra is trying to kill them as well as Zack and Cloud. So yeah, at the very least, the Turks know what Cloud looks like and they definitely know what the Buster Sword looks like.

Actually, I wrote a oneshot of the Church scene from Reno's pov. (Shameless self-promotion)https://thelifestream.net/dankforums/index.php?posts/289585/
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I never thought about Sephiroth being the one arranging Cloud's memories. It is true that Jenova is braindead at that point so I suppose it is possible. I always thought the Jenova cells in Cloud were being instinctual in trying to dominate him. And the amalgamated personality he ended up with was largely his own subconscious' doing. Otherwise, he would just end up like all the other Sephiroth clones: barely able to move or speak.

When applying his headscrew, Sephiroth does credit Cloud's fake memories to Jenova and not to himself, but its also true that you really can't trust a single thing Sephiroth says in that scene. To arrange Cloud's head right there at Zack's death shows a LOT of forethought on Sephiroth's part. Though I know he already hates the grunt that upstaged him at this point, that's still some amazing planning.

But anyway, just musing, carry on :monster: (Also, always good to see you posting SandG!)
 
S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
My interpretation is that any memories Cloud has as a SOLDIER will be where he and Zack were are both present. The rest is just a hazy background spoonfed by Sephiroth. And it's not until the 'puppet' scene where Cloud is forced to recall false memories that it really takes effect. I don't for one second think that Cloud inherited all Zack's memories as that would have meant that he knows far more than he should and just ruin the plot.

'What's that Cait Sith? You used to help me out during DMW battles but now you're a fortune teller riding a stuffed mog? And hey, isn't that girl Yuffie the same one that fucked me about so much looking for treasue in places that made absolutely no sense for her to be in? I should really put two and two together here.'

Clearly, there is a set pattern for how Sephiroth/Jenova has set up Cloud's mind. If people want to believe that it only applies to Nibelheim due to the trauma he substained, then go for it. For the more creative of us, I will choose to believe that the same applies to Modeoheim.

I would agree that a knowledge or even a care about Genesis and Angeal is perhaps pushing it, but Tseng is still valid. I don't think Cloud would see Tseng any less as an enemy, but surely there would be a stronger recognition than just 'oh, there's that guy from the Turks'.

And Reno and Rude must know what Cloud looks like. Have you never seen the end of Crisis Core?
 
Ite

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I wouldn't go so far as to say that any take on this subject is "more creative" or if that's necessarily a quality you would be looking for in literary analysis...
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
S and G said:
My interpretation is that any memories Cloud has as a SOLDIER will be where he and Zack were are both present. The rest is just a hazy background spoonfed by Sephiroth. And it's not until the 'puppet' scene where Cloud is forced to recall false memories that it really takes effect. I don't for one second think that Cloud inherited all Zack's memories as that would have meant that he knows far more than he should and just ruin the plot.
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He seems to have a pretty good idea what the pod monster in the Nilbelhiem reactor looked like. Only Sephiroth and Zack took a look at them.
 
S and G

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
ShikamaruNara said:
He seems to have a pretty good idea what the pod monster in the Nilbelhiem reactor looked like. Only Sephiroth and Zack took a look at them.
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This is where the problem lies. Cloud wasn't present and it's unlikely that Zack told him so it suggests that Cloud has some of Zack's memories that shouldn't be there. What I meant by 'not all' was, for example, Zack's mission to Banora in which Cloud was in no way related. The problem with Cloud remembering things that he shouldn't in Nibelheim suggests, following my own logic, that he should remember things in Modeoheim. Such as fighting Angeal. But, that opens a whole new problem to analyse and I don't fancy getting dragged into it.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
S and G said:
I would agree that a knowledge or even a care about Genesis and Angeal is perhaps pushing it, but Tseng is still valid. I don't think Cloud would see Tseng any less as an enemy, but surely there would be a stronger recognition than just 'oh, there's that guy from the Turks'.

And Reno and Rude must know what Cloud looks like. Have you never seen the end of Crisis Core?
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Knowledge of Angeal and Genesis is hardly pushing it. Cloud's met them. Angeal and Genesis probably didn't give much thought to him but I don't think Cloud just opted a "you know what, I don't even care what we are doing" attidute during these life or death missions and probably the most exciting moment of that entire year for him and just goes through getting his ass kicked by Angeal and the Genesis Clones on complete auto-pilot.
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
ShikamaruNara said:
Knowledge of Angeal and Genesis is hardly pushing it. Cloud's met them. Angeal and Genesis probably didn't give much thought to him but I don't think Cloud just opted a "you know what, I don't even care what we are doing" attitude during these life or death missions and probably the most exciting moment of that entire year for him and just goes through getting his ass kicked by Angeal and the Genesis Clones on complete auto-pilot.
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This is a great point to make. Given Cloud's insecurities, a mission like the Modeoheim probably meant a lot to him. Even if it wasn't, he wouldn't go and forget about a mission like that any time soon.

Another thing to consider is that by the time the Nibelheim mission comes up, Zack and Cloud have known each other for about a year. However, we aren't shown what their relationship was like or how many other missions they did with each other etc. All we know is that Cloud considered Zack his good friend.

As far as Cloud being familiar with Zack's memories goes, I think the process was "interrupted" when Sephiroth came into the picture. Instead of just remembering memories, Cloud was obsessing over Sephiroth, so the memories that weren't connected to Sephiroth wouldn't be considered as useful to Cloud atm as the memories that are connected to Sephiroth. It doesn't help either that later on in the game, Sephiroth starts messing with Cloud's memories.
 
Tennyo

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that while Cloud would obviously know who Genesis and Angeal are, would he know why they are important? He might not know how they are connected to Zack and Sephiroth.

If Cloud were to ever encounter Genesis again, which seems likely, he'd probably find his face familiar, maybe even know his name, but he might not know any more than he was a former SOLDIER who went AWOL.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Derringer Meryl said:
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that while Cloud would obviously know who Genesis and Angeal are, would he know why they are important? He might not know how they are connected to Zack and Sephiroth.
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well Zack cried all the way home after killing them, so he should have an inkling.
 
Tennyo

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Well I guess the question is, how much crying did he do, and to whom? Who came and picked them up and how much did Zack reveal? Did Zack and Cloud even ride home in the same helicopter?

Baring that in mind, maybe Cloud does know that Angeal was Zack's friend and mentor in SOLDIER. Who went AWOL and had to be taken out. We still don't know to what extent Cloud's knowledge goes.
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
It's also hard to say how close Cloud and Zack really were. Cloud, of course, idolized him, and Zack is always his usual pleasant self around him. But I kind of got the impression that their discussion in the Nibelheim Inn was the first serious conversation they ever had. Though the DMW shows a couple more interactions between them.
I'm not saying anything definitively, maybe they knew each other well, but I always kinda thought they weren't THAT close. After all, that makes Zack's sacrifice for him all the more special.

And I don't say this to give SE a free pass to be as lazy with continuity as they want, but it is true that the mindscrew Jenova applied to Cloud has no requirement to be consistent. And in fact it probably wasn't. The things he remembers and the things that he doesn't are probably very erratic and not entirely consistent. He didn't even remember his promise to Tifa until she pressed him about it.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Derringer Meryl said:
Well I guess the question is, how much crying did he do, and to whom? Who came and picked them up and how much did Zack reveal? Did Zack and Cloud even ride home in the same helicopter?

Baring that in mind, maybe Cloud does know that Angeal was Zack's friend and mentor in SOLDIER. Who went AWOL and had to be taken out. We still don't know to what extent Cloud's knowledge goes.
Click to expand...

Well for the sequel I'm gonna assume Cloud thinks Zack knew them and killed them and that's it.
 
Ite

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Vash the Stampede said:
And I don't say this to give SE a free pass to be as lazy with continuity as they want, but it is true that the mindscrew Jenova applied to Cloud has no requirement to be consistent. And in fact it probably wasn't. The things he remembers and the things that he doesn't are probably very erratic and not entirely consistent. He didn't even remember his promise to Tifa until she pressed him about it.
Click to expand...

This
 
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