A Dry Spicy Take Regarding AC.

[VanuriaFellspar]

It's a terrible film.

Okay -- it's a good video game film. It is a decent continuation of the story found in FF7.

However . . . it has a pretty big problem.

While you can enjoy the film without prior knowledge of the events that lead up to it (as people I've personally known have experienced it), the plot is written in a way that hangs on to that knowledge -- the assumption that you've played and beaten FF7 beforehand. It introduces none of the characters, save for Cloud possibly, in ways that welcome newcomers. The significant moments -- Sephiroth's 'revival', Zack and Aerith in the Lifestream, Cloud's relationship with Tifa, Reno / Rude -- fall flat without that knowledge.

Who is Sephiroth? Why are him and Cloud fighting? Who is the guy and the girl at the end of the film? Who is the guy in the red coat and what is his significance to the plot?

I've personally witnessed people asking these questions after having seen it -- some have even wondered, 'Well, where are the other 6 movies? Why is this FF7?'. It's a mess, truthfully. I still enjoy it, and rewatch it from time to time, but it's not great at all. Obviously, putting in some exposition in a short enough film already would have been unnecessary padding, but I think, if anything, there should have been a trilogy of films instead of one. Two would probably be better, admittedly, but . . .

Anyways, here's my first real contribution to the site!

 

[ChipNoir]

Its my dearest ambition to save up enough money to get the guys on the Now Playing film review podcast to review AC and KIngsglaive. They did a series of video game movie reviews, but they have nooooo idea how bad it can be.

 

[VanuriaFellspar]

Its my dearest ambition to save up enough money to get the guys on the Now Playing film review podcast to review AC and KIngsglaive. They did a series of video game movie reviews, but they have nooooo idea how bad it can be.

Alright, look -- Kingsglaive isn't like, my favorite thing or anything but I think it gets a lot of undeserved hate tbh. Most of it stems from it being something that should have been in the base game, admittedly, but at least it doesn't suffer from the same flaws as AC and you can watch it without wondering what the hell is going on.

Well, too much, anyways. Like I said, it definitely has its flaws, a lot of which is pacing and weird writing choices related. But it's a good enough time and the animation itself -- like AC -- is fantastic.

 

[ChipNoir]

Narratively, I could pick both films apart. Although Kingsglaive's shining moment is Luna's line about believing in miracles, but only making it to the platform because the MC tackles her out of mid air. : /

And really no, there are a lot of things with Kingsglaive that make no sense to the layman either. I made my dad watch it with me and he looked like he wanted to kill me after it was done.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...How is AC any different than any of the plethora of other OVA-esque anime films that require prior knowledge of the source material to watch and understand?

I'm not sure who goes into a sequel movie for FFVII fans.. Not knowing what FFVII is and expecting to somehow get the years long drama and content beforehand. It'd be like expecting The 20th Anniversary YGO movie to somehow explain and layout all that happened in the last 5 years in the manga's serialization beforehand when its clearly geared as a fanservice send off movie for those who actually read/watched the series and get the series. I'm not sure how you'd expect otherwise. For another example, if you went to watch "Garo: Red Requiem", chances are, you watched and enjoyed to tokusatsu series and wanted to see it on the big screen. That's what these kind of films are.

And Kingsglaive was meant to tie in directly to FFXV so... How again would it not?

These aren't self-contained, stand-alone films. What you may think of that is your business, but that's just the truth. They never were billed as such, since they're clearly for the fans who know what's going on and wanted to see it for that purpose. That's not unusual nor a "bad" thing, provided that's what's known going in for viewers. A film like what you're talking would have to be a 3+ hour endeavor that would put the audience under the "sleep" status effect.

 

[ChipNoir]

...That doesn't perclude films from following a decent narrative flow, a three act structure, and coherent plot lines. Otherwise they're not movies, they're just pretty looking plot dumps.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, that's like, your opinion, man.

But that's how most Japanese OVA movies are. Which AC most definitely is. If you're a fan, you'll get it and see it. If not, then well it's not for you.

Welcome to anime, I guess? If you're gonna go to a theatre to watch a movie about a video game or anime, you probably should know and familiarize yourself with it, since.. They're 99% of the time fanservice for the fanbase who put in the time, money and effort to support it.

They're not trying to pad or make it generic so those who have no context for the series somehow jump in and "get it." Hence why its a sequel continuation of something else.

It'd be like a reviewer complaining "Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII" isn't a strong, standalone story because it relies heavily on what happened in FFXIII and FFXIII-2 for it's narrative structure and premise and completely leaves those who don't know what happened in those stories in limbo and unable to grasp the core concepts of the FNC series.

Um, yeah. No shit. That's cause it's a sequel. The third in the series, actually.

 

[VanuriaFellspar]

I think you're misunderstanding my point.

Chip hit the nail on the head - yes, I'm aware it's a sequel to a preexisting property, and I'm aware that padding would have been bad which I talked about in my original post. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be written better or that it can't introduce the characters in a more fluid way beyond 'Hey, here's Cloud from FF7. Hey, here's Tifa from FF7. Hey, here's --'.

A good example of what I mean is - since you mentioned tokusatsu - Ninpuu Sentai Hurricaneger: 10 Years After. The plot doesn't rely on villains or even events from the previous series whatsoever. It introduces the characters in a natural way as well as explaining the relationship between the Hurricanegers and Yousuke through dialogue that isn't stilted or reference heavy. You get a feeling for how impactful his apparent turn to the dark side is without being completely lost as to what's happening.

If you want a non-weeby example, look at Hey Arnold: The Jungle Movie. There's a bit of leeway, there, because Hey Arnold isn't a continual narrative - but it does serve as a direct sequel to the 'The Journal' episode of the show. Failing not having seen that, you can still watch TJM with no knowledge of that episode or the characters because it still does an excellent job at establishing these things through natural means. You still get the plot from The Journal through Arnold talking about it and using it as a central plot point, you still get the relationship between Arnold and Helga and through that, you understand the significance of Arnold finally kissing Helga. Yeah, granted, Hey Arnold and The Jungle Movie isn't a super complex study into the human condition filled with 50 episodes / hours of backstory or anything, but it still succeeds at establishing core plot points & characters naturally.

A good game example, since you also mentioned the Lightning trilogy, would be Resident Evil 3. It's a direct continuation of RE1 and takes place during / after RE2, ending in Raccoon City's nuking. You don't need to know the events of the first game or even the events of RE2 to understand what's happening in 3 or understand why Jill is in Raccoon City to begin with. She has her goals explained to the player via files or other character's interactions with her and you can enjoy, fully, the events of the game without preexisting knowledge.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, okay, fair enough. But your original point was that it was a plot written in a way that hung on to the knowledge and assumption that the viewer played and beaten FF7 beforehand, and that made it inferior and poor. That was your point and I said that that's the entirety of how most OVA films are. Now whether they did that type of continuation justice or not is an entirely different topic than what you said in the OP. I mean, I guess it could be better. Lot's of things could be "better" but it already is and that's what it is going to be.

Square Enix already made a film that as you put it, doesn't rely on past villains or events from previous Final Fantasies. It's called "Spirits Within."

It nearly destroyed Square as a company.

Spirits Within isn't even a bad movie at all. It just isn't a movie most fans wanted to see or expected.

I think Square, and specifically the writers, found a much more profitable and pleasing path for themselves and fans alike in regards to who to market to, and what kind of films to make. AC is popular with FFVII fans because FFVII fans liked it and ate it up, which is why the Compilation was created, which in turn what also helped offshoot more of KH2's cameos and putting FFVII characters in it in their AC attire. There's an entire chain of events that led from FFVII, to AC, to the Compilation and further expressions of fanservice that utilize said popularity and desire to see the FFVII characters in things beyond FFVII.. Which rely on said prior knowledge of the series. Because people like it and it's fanservice.

The film that tried to not be anchored to what fans wanted and expected unsurprisingly, didn't do so well. Because fans unsurprisingly, want fanservice. Sometimes it's not that complicated!

It's no different than a crossover series making a point to include said popular cross over characters in the most dynamic, memorable and enjoyable scenes possible. They're going to use the most salient, popular, and enjoyable points of said character to make them hit the right points so they're not left dangling. AC is a fanservice film meant to hit the notes most people wanted to see after almost a decade. That's all.

 

[Strangelove]

The 20th Anniversary YGO movie

was that the one with paradox (which i watched like five times despite not really understanding the card game because i liked the vocal performance for paradox) or the one set after the manga with kaiba

i read the rest of the post and it’s the latter isn’t it

i suppose that’s a relevant comparison, because i watched the first one with no real familiarity with the source material and probably wouldn’t call it a great film and def didn’t get what someone who followed the previous three anime series would from seeing those characters. i just watched it because i thought paradox’s voice sounded unique and the theme song was catchy. after that i started actually playing the games (that i could get for free, so the mobile one and the 3ds download one) and reading the comic, and when i finally finish reading i will watch the last film (idk if i will go through hundreds of episodes of anime for it though). so seeing that actually made me more interested in seeing more. i didn’t get everything like who most of the side characters were or the rules of the game, but i could go along with it and follow along. i wouldn’t call it a great film but i got some enjoyment out of it (why have i watched it so much, i put it on in the background a couple of times just to listen to)

conversely i watched a kamen rider film on netflix (something about decades? it was one with gackt in it), another franchise i have only surface level familiarity with (i know the name and that the hero is a guy in a beetle mask who rides a bike and fights monsters every week and the bad guys are called shocker or joker?) and i was lost and didn’t get anything out of it. ultimately i think it just wasn’t made for me

bringing this back to ff, if i try to block out my prior ffvii knowledge i think ac might be like the kamen rider movie in that it’s pretty dependant in the game for setup. there’s a bit of getting the viewer up to speed in marlene’s narration but it’s vague and simplified. the main antagonists are new but completely tied in with sephiroth. i think you can follow the basic character conflict within the film (cloud is withdrawn and sad and he had to overcome it) but the reasons are based on knowledge of the game. i think you could follow it broadly and infer the general relationships of the character (zack and aerith are cloud’s dead friends, sephiroth is an old enemy, cloud and shinra don’t see eye to eye). but it’s built on the assumption that you will be filling in the blanks with prior knowledge of the game

i don’t think that’s the case with the ffxv film, though. i followed it with no real knowledge of the game (which i didn’t keep up to date with) and never really felt like i was missing something. perhaps it benefits from being set before the game with largely a separate cast. yeah, i figured that any loose ends would be tied up in the game but it mostly felt like a self contained story


was that the point of this thread, why am i writing this instead of sleeping. why did you bring up yugioh and make me type all this, mako

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

AC literally begins with a proclamation that the film to follow is for those who have spent time in this world before. It delivers on precisely the promise made at the outset. This is not a problem.

For that matter, the disc the movie is on includes a featurette recapping the main elements of the original game.

 

[ForceStealer]

^I was on my way to locate the exact quote as I was reading this, lol.

But yes.

To those who loved this world...and knew friendly company therin... This Reunion is for you.

The movie never had any intention of bringing in new people. It was made specifically for fans of FF7.

 

[VanuriaFellspar]

Yes, I understand that - but it doesn't mean it's completely free from criticism in that specific regard. Like I said in my first post, it is a good video game film and a decent continuation of the events of FF7, it just isn't a good film. I still enjoy it and rewatch it every so often.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah sure, it's not free from criticism but... that's a criticism that is pretty close to irrelevant.

That's like criticizing Fist of the North Star for not being accurate enough to real life martial arts.

Okay it's not a good "film." So what? The writers of FFVII who were still around never went into AC trying to even meet that metric and arbitrary standard in the first place. They wanted to make a movie for fans of FFVII that would revisit the world and continue the story post-Meteorfall. Because hey, that's what fans and the writers wanted.

To those who loved this world...and knew friendly company therin... This Reunion is for you.

That's what it was tryin' to do. Right there. Criticizing the chef for not making a tiramisu at a party when they said from the start they were making strawberry cheesecake just seems.. totally irrelevant. It wasn't so much a "film" as it was a fanservice OVA meant to cater to fans of the game and had beaten the game.

No one expected this movie to hang with the likes of "Spirited Away" or some other animated film. That's not the game they were playing at all. And that's perfectly fine and acceptable, because there's a demand for that, and fans can and deserve to be pleased as well, so long as it's good and enjoyable for what it is. No, not everything has to meet the arbitrary benchmark of "film" to be "entertaining."

Square Pictures tried making a "good film." They succeeded and for their troubles they died and got a Game Over.

 

[Kai Schulen]

*eye zooms in on Garo*I heard Garo where I heard tokusatsu talk To be honest, SE is better at writing video game plots than movie plots.

And also, Advent Children is really, not the ideal way to get a newbie into Final Fantasy VII be it via story, characters or graphics. Story and characters for the reasons above; graphics, because you'll get someone who's all "OH MY GOD LOOK AT THESE GRAPHICS SO GOOD" and then getting disappointed by the VII's graphics and never getting into the game beyond the first 5 minutes.




.....but I still love Advent Children and people can criticize it all they want but at the end of the day I like what I like, y'know? Don't have to justify everything to everyone.

On that note: I really gotta rewatch The Spirits Within one of these days. I remember watching it as a kid and being confused, (cause where's the moogles? chocobos? where's my bias Cloud???) but I don't remember hating it, really.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

All I know is that AC was my entry point to the world of FFVII, and it must have had some kind of magic, because even though I was completely mystified by it, I was also utterly fascinated and captivated. If I hadn't watched AC I wouldn't be here, now wasting my life writing Tseng/Rufus fanfiction and spending my summers playing video games when I'm old enough to know better, as all of those who have met can attest.

 

[ForceStealer]

And just as a point of note, I don't think you'll find many people here who think the movie is free from criticism, on the contrary, a not-insignificant number of members specifically don't like it. It's just this particular criticism - accessibility to newbies - isn't very relevant to the intent, as Mako said.

 

[Cthulhu]

How would it compare if you've seen the Avengers without having seen any of the other Marvel movies? I'd argue it's still pretty entertaining then, but I'll admit it's a poor standalone movie.

But keep in mind where it came from; I 'member, I was on ACF near the start. It was supposed to be just a 20-30 minute short, more like a demo that they still have it after the near-death experience Square had after Spirits Within. It was only after huge fan responses (and probably more financial security due to the merger with Enix and the success of FFX) that they slowly started to extend it - 45 mins, an hour, then the whole hour and a half, and a while later the Complete version, one of many HD re-releases that Square would end up doing, huehuehue.

anyway, stuff. It was never intended to become as lengthy a movie or as ambitious a project as it ended up being.

 

[Kain424]

Yes, I understand that - but it doesn't mean it's completely free from criticism in that specific regard. Like I said in my first post, it is a good video game film and a decent continuation of the events of FF7, it just isn't a good film.

Now that's entirely subjective. It's pretty good. It has great music, a well-developed world, interesting characters, a propulsive plot, and beautiful cinematography. It's not great, like the game from which it comes, but few things are. I'm curious why you think it doesn't work as a film.

 

[Ite]

The Trigun movie and the Cowboy Bebop movie are completely wonderful stand-alone films, explaining only what they need to invite you into the story without bogging you down with recap.

And Avengers totally stands alone. Again, everything important about the characters is explained in the film.

I think FFVII:AC fails on every level, except for maybe particle effect impressiveness. It alienates as many fans as it does newcomers.

 

[Kain424]

I think FFVII:AC fails on every level, except for maybe particle effect impressiveness.

Well-edited, effective sound design, music, and choreography.

 

[looneymoon]

Honestly, what I found especially irritating was that we needed a bunch of novellas to contextualize what was even happening in an already poor plot. Even coming in as a fan of FF7, the film feels really all over the place and unfocused.

 

[Strangelove]

i was wondering if nojima's main experience being writing games hindered when writing a film script. like, a game is usually longer than a film and you can afford to meander a bit more and cover more ground and a film is generally tighter and more focused.

so i thought maybe he's better sticking to novels. otwtas was alright (if not a bit sparse in terms of prose and felt like a script in places), i thought the turks novel was entertaining.

and then there was the ffx one which is just 'horny on main: the novel' so maybe it's not all good (even though some of the new character stuff was okay)

 

[Kain424]

That's probably fair. In OTWTAS, my favorite stuff had to do with Red XIII and Vincent. They explored what those characters and their world was like, which was probably more interesting than another Cloud story. For all intents and purposes, Cloud had already traveled his most compelling arc in the main game. Though Advent Children did explore some interesting territory (i.e. what happens after you save the world? what is failure like for such a hero?), it was more interesting to see that through the eyes of the other characters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

i was wondering if nojima's main experience being writing games hindered when writing a film script. like, a game is usually longer than a film and you can afford to meander a bit more and cover more ground and a film is generally tighter and more focused.

so i thought maybe he's better sticking to novels. otwtas was alright (if not a bit sparse in terms of prose and felt like a script in places), i thought the turks novel was entertaining.

and then there was the ffx one which is just 'horny on main: the novel' so maybe it's not all good (even though some of the new character stuff was okay)

Nojima hates FFX. Like he seriously must have a raging hate boner for that story cause he fucked that narrative to pieces. Really can't believe an editor or even an executive would have let such a controversial story even release alongside an HD port. That was bizarre.