SPOILERS A missing detail from chapter 18: Copies

[ultima786]

Thanks to this reddit user for pointing this out:

In chapter 18, when Cloud and Co walk through the portal, the purple tornadoes are literally making copies of everything. They make a copy of the bridge, crane, and more. Don’t believe me? Check it out yourself:

(see hour 14:34:01).

This seems to imply that the Midgar Cloud looks at while floating is a copied version of Midgar.

Don’t know what this means exactly but my mind is blown. Cant believe no one noticed this before.

 

[Torrie]

It has been pointed out by a few FF content creators on youtube that there are most probably two different Midgars according to what is seen in cutscenes. The level of big brain theory is the same as the debate about the church in INTERmission: why have two different layouts when you could have simply reused the assets?

My take on this? I have no freaking clue

 

[Wol]

Very interesting and well-formulated theories, and I know they're potentially real because it all sounds complex just as Nomura likes it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nomura should be writing bloody Dr Who scripts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nomura should be writing bloody Dr Who scripts.

He was already showrunner during the Matt Smith era. He's had his time.

 

[ultima786]

It has been pointed out by a few FF content creators on youtube that there are most probably two different Midgars according to what is seen in cutscenes. The level of big brain theory is the same as the debate about the church in INTERmission: why have two different layouts when you could have simply reused the assets?

My take on this? I have no freaking clue

Right. I’ve seen these but no one explicitly noticed that the parts of Midgar were being copied one by one. As far as I know anyhow

 

[ultima786]

I want to add that this doesn’t help us much with whether this is an alt timeline, a Lifestream realm, or memory, or whatever. I’m confidently in the camp that the harbinger battle is in the Lifestream since it appears the Material Ultimania implies that.

What’s going on and where is Zack? Not sure but I also want to believe it’s just a lived, embodied memory of some kind.

I also want to believe that Beagle stamp is just a symbol of Cloud’s false perception of reality.

 

[Eerie]

OK, I've never noticed that (at 14:34:30 or so you can see the crane being copied, that's more explicit and visible if you put the speed at 0.25). It is to note that while the Ultimania said they were in the Lifestream, it pointed at the in between their fight against the whispers and their fight against Sephiroth didn't they? If someone can fill me in about that!

This... would be one of the proofs that... the Lifestream is at the heart of parallel timelines to me. The Whispers being able to recreate/copy elements, and maybe fumble sometimes along the way (oh it's good enough) would explain why we can *see* that there are several Midgar. It definitely shows that it's not a timeloop though and that we are talking about connected timelines through the Lifestream. But I think the singularity is *what* created the new parallel timeline, or at least the one where Zack is seemingly alive. It's like a Big Bang and a "turn right" theories mixed, for Doctor Who fans. We already had OG Midgar and Remake Midgar and now we have Terrier!Midgar. It's the Midgar the Whispers are able to create so that a new reality comes to live.

Basically, Sephiroth going back in time would have created the Remake timeline, and the team defeating the Whispers created the Terrier timeline (see Ody's magnificent graphics that I think is going on). So we have 3 different Midgar. Both Sephiroth and Aerith have their knowledge of future events from the OG timeline. The Remake timeline is made to interconnect the Compilation, to encapsulate it and gives nods to it. It implies that all events before, during and after the OG have/are/are supposed to happen (most will, if we go by the devs' words).

This also gives another thing to look at for Sephiroth: he was controlling *some* Whispers: what if he wanted to create HIS own reality, and Aerith countered it with the portal he made... I'm just thinking... he wanted them to go through that portal to be able to create his own reality, but Aerith turned it into her reality (hence why Zack lives)...

 

[Makoeyes987]

I thought this observation was apparent and already known. Midgar is "duplicating" because it's not the real Midgar. It's an alternate Midgar that either existed or was created within the Singularity itself.

When Cloud and the others step through the light into the Singularity, they come out facing the opposite direction they went in. As if they stepped through a mirror. Then the party proceeds to 'shift' into the static toned dimension or world where the Midgar they witness is being destroyed by a tornado of Whispers. That's where they defeat Whisper Harbinger.

And it is within that dimension that Sephiroth exists. He absorbs the Whispers, manifests a new... reality marble or something.... And then confronts the party in a world where Meteor is about to collide into Midgar.

Sephiroth's defeat collapses that alternate world (but not beside flinging Sephiroth and Cloud into another dimension where the Planet is literally fucking dead and a nebula of stars reminiscent of Sephiroth's one wing hangs in the void of space) and returns Cloud and the others back to reality.

... On second thought, nevermind. I'm not surprised no one's noticed that before.

 

[Torrie]

no one explicitly noticed that the parts of Midgar were being copied one by one

OK, I've never noticed that (at 14:34:30 or so you can see the crane being copied, that's more explicit and visible is you put the speed at 0.25).

I watched the episode you mentioned before I posted those vids above, and now I watched it again at 0.25x speed as Eerie suggested, and at first I wanted to argue that I couldn't see the plot ghosts creating things -- only destroying them, hence the rubble floating in the air and all, but I think this is the specific frame you're referring to?



Even taking into account Mako's observations, I still find it hard to wrap my mind around it all. I mean, when the party walks out of the portal, Midgar is already there, but indeed, it looks as if everything is mirrored. But what the Whispers do looks like such a mess that analyzing it is like studying quantum physics but in a fictional world

 

[Tetsujin]

I never noticed that duplicating shit either.

I just thought the tornadoes are destroying the singularity version of Midgar but they're literally creating duplicates of what is already there and those are the pieces that are being swept away. Weird.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah it's like... they're trying to scare the party away from what's going on there (the Midgar being duplicated). And @Makoeyes987 I didn't think it this way before noticing that. The fact that Midgar was duplicated in another world didn't scream to me that the Whispers were *creating* it, but rather that it was a mirror world created by the singularity.

 

[cold_spirit]

Been almost two weeks and the back of my mind is still thinking about this.

Didn't believe it at first. I wrote a big long post about how I think everyone is misinterpreting a visual effect. Then I rewatched the scene. Shoot, it's there.

I never thought much of the "other Midgar" after the party steps into the Singularity. It just seemed to be "in the Lifestream" in the same way Nibelheim is "in the Lifestream" when Cloud and Tifa restore his memories in the original game. Basically just a destructible battlefield for the final boss created by magic. I mean, Safer Sephiroth is fought in a cloud dimension and Omega Weiss in a water dimension, both in the Lifestream, so why not.

Since I'm in the separate timeline camp, the implication that the Whispers can copy objects is huge. In my imagination it possibly gives a reason on how there are separate timelines (though the why has yet to be addressed). Since the Whispers protect the flow of destiny, I'm working off the assumption that they created separate timelines to ensure some event still happens, but what? Good stuff.

 

[ultima786]

Omega Weiss in a water dimension, both in the Lifestream, so why not.

I like your solution. There are tweets where devs seem to say just about this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323313745431425024

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not sure what's so confusing or groundbreaking about this. Just look at visual storytelling and work with what we know.

You step into a location called "the Singularity" created by timeline protecting "feelers," connected to a boss feeler who's connected to all threads of spacetime.

When you step through the Whispers to the Singularity, you emerge through the same entrance you entered. The duplication occurs when the battle begins, and the Darkside Whisper Harbinger begins destroying everything in Midgar utilizing the powers of these Arbiters of Fate.

Sephiroth then destroys this same alternate Midgar. And that commentary reveals what they were going for.

I think the visual metaphor is apparent.

 

[ultima786]

I'm not sure what's so confusing or groundbreaking about this. Just look at visual storytelling and work with what we know.

You step into a location called "the Singularity" created by timeline protecting "feelers," connected to a boss feeler who's connected to all threads of spacetime.

When you step through the Whispers to the Singularity, you emerge through the same entrance you entered. The duplication occurs when the battle begins, and the Darkside Whisper Harbinger begins destroying everything in Midgar utilizing the powers of these Arbiters of Fate.

Sephiroth then destroys this same alternate Midgar. And that commentary reveals what they were going for.

I think the visual metaphor is apparent.

You seem to have it all figured out, huh? Well, why would the Whispers copy Midgar in the first place? Is it just creating memories or something

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the reason they're copying Midgar is because the battle is in Midgar.

A version of Midgar that either exists somewhere else or some time else and is the domain that the Whispers inhabit. It's their world.

The copying happens as the battle starts, and its not just copying. It's an entire shift of the whole atmosphere and scene. The screen flickers and highlights a transition is occurring. It goes from an eerily quiet city absent of the Whispers and then shifts into a howling, frantic copy of Midgar filled to the brim with Whispers who destroy the environment in ways that wouldn't be possible if people actually existed there.

It's either a simulacrum of Midgar separate from reality and created by the Whispers, or it's "the other side" of Midgar that lies within the Singularity and could potentially be part of an entirely separate parallel world.

The "copying" isn't so much actual duplication but the transition of fully landing into the realm of the Singularity. And by Sephiroth stepping into that world, he turns it into a reflection of his ambitions. It turns into his reality, where Meteor is about to strike.

And it's significant that upon the destruction of the Whispers and Cloud's proximity to Sephiroth, he gets flung into a future where the Planet is 7 seconds to its end. At the Edge of Creation. A world at the brink of collapse.

 

[ultima786]

I think the reason they're copying Midgar is because the battle is in Midgar.

A version of Midgar that either exists somewhere else or some time else and is the domain that the Whispers inhabit. It's their world.

The copying happens as the battle starts, and its not just copying. It's an entire shift of the whole atmosphere and scene. The screen flickers and highlights a transition is occurring. It goes from an eerily quiet city absent of the Whispers and then shifts into a howling, frantic copy of Midgar filled to the brim with Whispers who destroy the environment in ways that wouldn't be possible if people actually existed there.

It's either a simulacrum of Midgar separate from reality and created by the Whispers, or it's "the other side" of Midgar that lies within the Singularity and could potentially be part of an entirely separate parallel world.

The "copying" isn't so much actual duplication but the transition of fully landing into the realm of the Singularity. And by Sephiroth stepping into that world, he turns it into a reflection of his ambitions. It turns into his reality, where Meteor is about to strike.

And it's significant that upon the destruction of the Whispers and Cloud's proximity to Sephiroth, he gets flung into a future where the Planet is 7 seconds to its end. At the Edge of Creation. A world at the brink of collapse.

I don’t understand almost any of this lol. I’d like to think it’s simpler than all that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don’t understand almost any of this lol.

Then you still managed to make more sense of that alphabet vomit than I did.

 

[Odysseus]

If you press the "A" button, Mario will jump.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't know what Mako is talking about but I'm still waiting for the part with the Whisper tornadoes doing their flyby copy process that is the subject of this thread

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then you still managed to make more sense of that alphabet vomit than I did.

Okay, I'll simplify it.

The Whispers made a copy of Midgar because the Singularity opened in Midgar, and the Whispers are able to literally exist/inhabit the same location at multiple times. Because that's how they pass in and out of reality.

Meaning, the Midgar the party fought in was either the Midgar of another time, such as the past or future. Or, The Whispers phase shifted a new space location to create a battleground based on Midgar.

It's the same principle behind there being "two" Shibuya Cities in The World Ends With You. There's the Midgar thats in reality, and the Midgar that exists for the Whispers in the Singularity, which is the one that got destroyed and Sephiroth fucked up before flying to the Edge of Creation.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That doesn't really make it any clearer, but thanks anyway for trying.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What?? Somehow I don't think you're trying!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If the space outside reality is real, then isn't it also reality?

I thought the Midgar they fought in at the end of the game was an illusion created by Sephiroth, as is his wont. Occam's Razor.