Aerith, Sephiroth, Jenova, "Stamp Breeder Book", and Rebirth.

[ProfessorGast]

Stamp Breeder Book:

This translation is from Reddit by an actual person.

This interests me for many reasons. It's location in Aerith's room is just the tip of the iceberg. The translation, ""Stamp Breeder" Book" right as Hojo made several indications of his desire and plan to breed Aerith in Chapter 16. Which is incidentally named "Belly of the Beast" and is followed by "Deliverance from Chaos". The inter interesting aspect is who Hojo intends to breed Aerith as he wants to experiment with a Cetra/SOLDIER hybrid using Sephiroth's DNA from clone #49.
The book also makes reference to a fan club. Might not mean anything special, but Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal all had fan clubs in Crisis core. And they are the only fan clubs in all of FFVII from a canonical standpoint.
Most interesting of all about this book is that it is the last appearance of 'Beagle Stamp'. The next Stamp sighting occurs after the singularity where Stamp appears as a different breed of dog. So we went from "Stamp Breeder" to Stamp as a different breed of dog. And that is why I say this can't be a coincidence. We also can't forget that our escape from the Drum was entirely on Hojo's terms. He lets Cloud and Co go after 'he has all the data he needs' from them. I will come back to this comment. But in the meantime. I will explore some possibilities leading up to 'Rebrith'.



The Butterfly Effect:
Most people consider Stamp to be a representation of the Butterfly effect. That said, it doesn't mean that clues pertaining to him are insignificant. However, their significance is dependant on context. In broad sense, Stamp represents the world (or timeline) that formed him. More specifically, Stamp is a product and hence a reflection of Shinra's armed forces as Stamp is basically a mascot for war propaganda. Another product of Shinra's armed forces is the SOLDIER program and the Jenova project. Their war hero is Sephiroth who is also used for propaganda and a recruitment tool as Sephiroth is the one who inspired Cloud to enlist in SOLDIER.
Thus, Stamp's closest connection to Remake's timeline is Sephiroth and the SOLDIER program as a whole. This is where we also get the subsequent connections to Cloud and Zack as their characters are closely associated with Sephiroth and are products of the SOLDIER program even though Cloud is technically not a SOLDIER. Thus Terrier Stamp and the butterfly effect could very well represent a different breed of a particular SOLDIER, or SOLDIER(s). That doesn't mean there aren't other things connected to stamp. It is just hat SOLDEIR is the strongest and most obvious connection to be made.


Crisis Core Reunion:
The devs hav said that no changes will be made to this game's story. And I believe them... For now. That said, it is clear that they are showing us this for a reason. Which they said is to get players familiarized with the backstory because it connects to both FF7 and FF7R. That much is obvious. The reason I bring it up is because Crisis Core is basically a story about the SOLDIER program and the tragic results of it. Fan clubs aside, I also think this is where our most likely candidates for a Cetra/SOLIDER hybrid in Rebirth's timeline.


Cetra/SOLDIER Hyrbid Possibilities - Sephiroth:
This one is the most obvious and for obvious reasons. The only thing is that we kinda have enough Sephiroths running around. Granted, the main differences are between Ore and Watashi, but you also have 'Future Sephiroth", the Sephiroth Clones, The Sephiroth Illusions, etc, etc. One more incarnation of Sephiroth is stands to make things even messier. They probably have enough Sephiroth's to occupy an entire village already. You'd probably have to assign numbers to them just to keep track of them all. Especially in Remake.


Marco (Sephiroth Clone# 49):
Though not from Crisis Core (as far as we know), I have him categorized different from Sephiroth because I don't think he is an ordinary Sephiroth clone. Some of this comes from researching the book "Sepher Sephiroth" and the number 49, and from the events in Chapters 16 and 17. My theory is that this Sephiroth is connected to the entity that is 'Future Sephiroth' of whom I don't believe to actually be Sephiroth. He may be a Sephiroth from a different timeline, or 'Jenova' taking Sephiroth's form, or a different entity entirely. It is hard to say, but I think the clues this entity being the 'true villain' are in Aerith's first vision in "Picturing the Past" and "Gilligan" from Nanaki's story in "On the Way to a Smile" as Vincent describes him as an entity from the distant future. My theory is that this is the same entity referred to as 'Future Sephiroth" and Marco is connected to this entity and this entity is in part (or wholly) responsible for disruptions to the timeline in Remake.
All of that said, my theory on what Jenova actually is in relation to Sephiroth is too complex for the purposes of this post. Let's move on.


Maro Cont'd - A few key observations:
The most obvious is how the Whispers react to Marco versus Sephiroth Clone#2. More specifically when Marco kills Barrett and Transforms into Jenova Dreamweaver. Both times, the Whispers attempt to stop him. On the other hand, the whispers allow Clone #2 to carry on business as usual as they stop Cloud from interfering with his progress. The reasons for this is simply because the former is attempting to change history while the latter is not. This should tell you who is part of the original timeline. Which brings me to the final observations.


Hints About Macro in the Music:
After Jenova Dreamweaver was defeated, Marco's body disappears into dust as Jenova's corpse reappears. When Sephiroth Clone #2 picks up Jenova, we hear One Winged Angel played in a minor third, then a major third. This same arrangement (different key) as OWA transitions to Midgar: City of Mako theme as Aerith becomes frightened in the alleyway. It is interesing how they used that exact part of the song.

- Sephiroth Clone #2 arrives after Marco's Death as Jenova Dreamweaver.

-Midgar City of Mako Transitions From OWA - The key is different, but the intervals are the same.

- FFVII Remake Intergrade Intro - The other variation of "One Winged Angel"?
- FFVII Remake Intro for reference.

Fan theories aside. I have to say that the strongest indicator of all that something will change with Sephiroth is the change to the Lyrics of his song. That is a very central tenet to his character, so there is some implied meaning in this. As to how Sephiroth may change is what this is about. While there are other possibilities regarding that, I happen to feel that this is the strongest one. I am aware that many will disagree with me and that is fine. This is just what I see when I step back and look at the big picture of everything that happened in Chapter 16. 17 and 18. That said, I have entertained possibilities that Sephiroth may not be our Cetra/SOLDIER Hybrid. Which actually would be the case depending on how you look at the last and most mysterious possibility.


Genesis Returns as a Cetra/SOLDIER hybrid:
Love him or hate him, I think we have more than enough hints that our dumb-apple gobbling, LOVELESS reading villain will make a return in Rebirth. Returing as a different form is also not impossible due to being in Deepground among other things. Such as the need to cure his cell degradation which requires S type cells. Perhaps then he would become the S-G SOLDIER/Hybrid that Hojo also mentioned. That said, I Think that a Cetra/SOLDIER Hybrid of any variety will either produce a lovecraftian abomination or an ultra powerful main villain. That said, I don't see Genesis becoming either of these in Rebirth.


Ifalna's cells used with Jenova Cells to Produce Sephiroth/SOLDIER.
I'm not sure where to place this one as this one is as is messy. These points are necessary though as we get closer to the final theory. I am bringing this one up is that the book in Aerith's room would have been there for at least 17 years as Aerith said that it was just as she had left it. Which seems to be the case when judging by appearances. That said, Ifalna cells are a possibility. The only thing is that why didn't Hojo when Iflana was alive? Which is a good question. But keep in mind that the Jenova was beleived to be the Cetra and that Shinra started the SOLDIER program under the impression that they would have Cetran DNA.
The other thing here is that we know there are changes in Remake's timeline during Iflana and Aerith's time at Shinra HQ as detailed in "PIcturing the Past". Which leads me to my next question. Why did he start producing Sephrioth Clones 10 years prior to Sephiroth's death in Remake's timeline? My best guess is that it has something to do the little girl whose touch provides people with 'clairvoyance' of sorts. The story "Picturing the Past" ties Aerith's vison to the drawings and the Sephiroth Clones in Remake. Which in essence makes this the earliest known deviation to the timeline. While changes likely go back further, these events mark the first known changes to the timeline from a canonical standpoint. While we don't know to what extent these changes affected the flow of events in Remake. One thing I can think of is that the casualties sustained by the Special Survey Units would have resulted in a reduced number of infantrymen. Which is something we see in Remake's version of Zack's last stand along with Terrier Stamp.
In regards to why Hojo didn't use Ifalna's cells to make a hybrid. I don't know. All I am saying is that "Picturing the Past" has a significant connection to Sephiroth through the Sephiroth Clones. Though I have doubts on this one simply because Hojo only mentions Aerith beung used for his Hybrid Expirment. What makes me wonder if further changes to this timeline could result in Ifalna's cells being used the the SOLDIER program in conjunction with Jenova. Which brings me to my next point.


SOLDIER, Sephiroth and Aerith
Earlier drafts of FF7 cast Sephiroth and Aerith as siblings, hence the similar bangs in OG. And the precursor to SOLDIER was known as the Thaumaturge. The Thaumaturgy is basically sorcery (this is when Edea was still a FFVII character) and it was described as those who had their 'Jenova element' awakened within them. Some people had this ability naturally while others needed to be 'enhanced'. This relates to the earlier idea that Jenova was a part of the brain which I take to mean that everyone had "Jenova" in them and I think the part of the brain is a reference to the 'pineal gland'. Some occults believe the pineal gland to be the 'third eye' and a the source of 'magickal power'. Some illustrations of the pineal gland depict is as a red spheroidal object which is similar to the red object seen embedded inside Jenova Dreamweaver's skull. The actual pineal gland doesn't look like that, but what is interesting is that the Jenova Dreamweaver boss fight apparently takes place inside a brain. Make of that what you will.

That said, this post is going to go into some tangents which are necessary to understand where I am coming from in the final theory.

Early FFVII Drafts:
Regarding the Thaumaturge, Aerith was considered one who had her abilities naturally and the original purpose of the Turks was to seek the Thaumaturge. This is most likely where Aerith's joke about being a SOLDIER candidate comes from as Cloud explains the purpose of the Turks is to seek SOLDIER candidates. That comment could be homage to earlier versions of the script that won't have an effect on future events such as Barrett being killed. Or maybe not. It's hard to say as some changes are just little tributes to early versions of FFVII while others seem to be reversions of the story back to an original draft. The point here is that changing SOLDIER to have both Jenova and Ifalna's cells would effectively be like having different 'breeds' of SOLDIER if you will. It would also bring Remake a little close to the original drafts in an adaptive sense.

Another important thing to consider here is that many of these elements are tied to Edea origins as a FFVII Character. When she was written out of the story, so did many of the elements associated with her character. These elements would eventually become FFVIII. Which just so happens to involve a future deity changing the past and time compression into a singularity. The purpose of that was to become god in the form of a new universe.

Like I said, make of that what you will. For that matter, I don't think they're merging FF8 with FF7. I beleive the reason for these similarities is because these ideas were part of FF7 before they became part of FF8. Aside from Neo Midgar and time barriers protecting large cities, there just so happens to be another game involving time travel, sorcery and planet consuming aliens that shared development with FF7 during it's early days as an SNES title. Development on SNES FF7 was halted so they could help with Chrono Trigger. When the devs returned to FF7, they came back with a set of entirely new ideas that were most likely inspired from their work on Chrono Trigger. Thus, SNES FF7 evolved into what would become Xenogears (IIRC) as FF7 was mostly revamped as development as a PS1 title began.

One thing regarding similarities between FF7 and FF8 is that Remake is what makes the similarities most apparent. Remove FF7R from the equation, those similarities exist only beneath the surface. And considering that there is no precedence for time travel in FF7 lore in regards to how that works. Once could say that FF8 serves as the next best thing despite only being canon to FF8.



Going back to Sephiroth and How this could be possible:
I am aware this theory will be deemed far fetched by some, but looking at the big picture, I am seeing too many indications to write these off. Hybrid theories aside, there is just alot of strong evidence that something is going to change with him. As to what that change could be, I think Hojo's various mentions of a hybrid and wanting to breed Aerith along with the Stamp Breeder Book being in her room which marks the final appearance of stamp as that breed hold are by far the strongest clues we have.
All of that said, we're NOT gonna see a pregnant Aerith. For that matter, the main thing is that in order for this to work is that would need to have already happened in the new timeline (hence Iflana) unless this creation is done through a Sephiroth clone is some way using genetic samples collected by Hojo. Which all things considered is the most likely way for it to be implemented.


Enter The Drum:
First thing to point out is that Cloud and Co are only allowed to leave the drum on Hojo's terms. The party is released when Hojo "has all the data he needs" which is most likely battle data which in part is how Hojo creates his monsters. This apparently is also how Chadley creates Materia. No clue how that works, but that's how it works as nonsensical as it sounds. Side note, one thing that is sus in regard to Chadley is how Hojo's battle simulator is very close in terms of shape and proximity to the entrance to the drum. As in a little too close for comfort considering that Cloud hallucinates Jenova being inside the elevator shaft that we walk inside of to enter the drum. Speaking of hallucinations, its funny that Hojo mentions that and we end up fighting a boss that is known to cause them according to their description. Funnier yet is that Jenova Dreamweaver turned out to be Marco. So I guess that is their 'face to face' per Hojo's desire.
That said, there is ALOT strange things that begin happening after the drum which is a huge topic in of itself. Jenova Dreamweaver also marks the major turning point for the remake. Most changes prior to this are insignificant in terms of the entire story. Nearly all changes after this are VERY significant in terms of the story.
Just the fact that it is taking inside a brain should be enough to tell us something is off.

While I won't claim to know everything that happened in Chapter 17, I can say with confidence that these are the events which kicked off Rebirth and whatever is to change regarding Sephiroth and Hojo's hybrid has something to do with what went on in that chapter. Maybe I'll cover all of those details in another post.


We're getting closer.....

There are also a ton of esoteric references here. The most obvious one being the gold melting down the columns and Shinra's giant gold statue which is a reference to the golden calf as a false god which is what ShinRa is. The "Ra" is a reference to the Egyptian Sun god. In the museum, a young Shinra is shown working on a sun lamp. In Chapter 5 Tifa recites his speech about the sun lamps as they are shutting them off to proceed to Reactor 5. In that chapter Barrett says "You gotta put out a sun just to open a gate". Interesting line considering Rufus's dog's name was changed from darknation to darkstar. Darkstar is another term for "Solar Eclipse" which often represents death of an old god and the coming of a new one. Makes sense considering why Rufus is there. But maybe there is something deeper.

My Final Theory on this topic:

Going back to the FF8 References with Time Comression and Singularities. The more detailed description of that is to compress time so that the entire universe can exist within Ultimecia's coniousness which would allow her to become a god by becoming literally everything. Being inside a brain, and then seeing the silhouette in the red nebula is certainly something to think about. That said, the devs haven't confirmed this to be Jenova, but I'm really not seeing what else it could be. I can't imagine something looking like Jenova by coincidence. That is unless it is something with strong ties to Jenova like Heretic Hojo (hmmm 'heretic'....interesting)

If we're to take this as the planet (or 'this' planet) being reborn through Jenova in some way, then that would mean the inhabitants are all 'hybrids' through the planet which effectively makes nobody hybrid because they are born of 'this' planet. I say 'this' planet in reference to one of the translations of Rebirth's trailer as I'm not sure what to make of that yet. I've been wondering what to make of Jenova as the Universe of Creation for a very long time. As I am writing this post, thinking about Stamp, the butterfly effect, the reference to 'this' planet in Rebirth's trailer, and then looking at this picture.....

Aerith pretty much represents the planet. She is literally the Sephiroth of the planet as the word Sephiroth comes from the word Sephira which is the Hebrew word for expression. Aerith being the last Cetra is an expression of the Planet's will as just Sephiroth is an expression of Jenova's will. Another way to interpret the events of Chapter 17 is that the planet was reborn as a hybrid and Jenova is just as much a part of it as the Cetra. This single move would bring things closer to those original drafts in so many ways it's ridiculous. One of the key tenets of these earier drafts is that Jenova was an element that existed within everyone. How people reacted to having that awakened within them varied just as we see with the Jenova cells.
The compilation has even pushed us close to this through geostigma. And on that topic, why is all of the water black in Chapter 2? Fun fact on this. In Chapter 3, there is an NPC in sector 7 commenting on the black water as she washes clothes in it. She says the black water takes all the stains out 'like magic' as she stands over a cauldron shaped tub. Maybe that is why they need water filters so they don't ingest too much Jenova Juice and become like Marco.

That said, all I've seen are bits and pieces of FFVII earlier drafts as I doubt it exists in complete form anywhere outside of Square Enix HQ. My take on that as a whole is thatyou can look at FFVII is a classic Final Fantasy game underneath a cyberpunk aesthetic. This is even reflected in the lore itself as humanity has very recently discovered technology. Take away Mako reactors and it suddenly starts to look like that. Seeing it like that, you can see how the devs would 'change' the story without changing the crux of the story. The same elements are still present at their core, they are just presented differently and perhaps something closer to what the original vision of the story in the sense that the original vision will have to be 'adapted' to existing FFVII lore.


Final Thoughts:
I'm really torn on the "Jenovaverse" idea as I am still processing it. The thing is we can't ignore what the Universe of Creation looks like. And the fact that FF7R used the time travel elements from FF8 (which is sorta like a spinoff of FF7). Then and the purpose of the singularity in its story in conjunction with what we're seeing right here. I have to say this may be the most plausible one. But as grandiose as it may sound, it would actually be the opposite as changes in a Jenova-Gaia would mostly exist in the background. Superficially everything would look the same, but with slightly different back stories. The biggest change would of course be with SOLDIER and Sephiroth which is already being indicated to us.
But even then, this technically means no Hybrids due to everyone being of the planet now. Going back to the games intro theme. How it seamlessly transtions from Sephiroth's theme going from minor 3rd to major 3rd into the City of Mako theme really makes me wonder. Especially seeing as they reprised that right after we kill Jenova Dreaweaver.

Speaking of that......

Since we're talking about the "Edge of Creation", "Rebirth", "Singularities", and "Supernovas", then why not talk about the "Big Bang" that Jenova Dreamweaver greets us with.

Referring back to FF8, it's description of becoming a god using the singularity so that it can fit within one's consciousness. Otherwise known as 'pantheism'. This is the belief that everyone and everything is god and that we all exist within it's consciousness. And that consciousness reveals itself to us as light. As in "Let there be light". I don't know if FF7 has pantheism. Judging by the final entry of LOVELESS, I would say that it does, although I suspect this to be more in a planetary sense. Not just due to the game's lore, but due to the hermetic philosophy associated with it. Hermeticism has it's origins in the Greek Hellenistic era and thus borrows heavily on Greek Mythology and Religion and possibly "Planetology".


Planetology is a lesser used term for Astrology. Hermeticism to this day references the Greek model of the Solar system which what Safer Sephiroth shows us when he casts Supernova. Those zig zaggy lines you see on on the menu screen resemble natal charts which are drawn according to this model. Hermetic philosophy also beleives in the concept of 'Aeons'. If you've ever heard say we're in the "Age of Aquarius", they are referencing an Aeon. General astrology refers to the Zodiac gods for the Aeons while Hermeticm references a mix between Greek and Egyptian Gods.

An Aeon is part of a great cycle that lasts about 2,000 years. And with each new Aeon comes a new god to rule over through it's influence. For example, the age of Aquarius is said to have influenced the age of technology (way back in the 60s). In FFVII lore, they have a calendar system that repeats every 2000 years and uses a greek letter to indicate the era. (FWIW, the calendar system in FFVII is not a retcon. It is shown in the 4th disc of the international edition released in November of 1997).

The year 2000 was the 'Mu' era, and the year 0001 is the 'Nu' era. The name Jenova is combination of "Jehovah" (God), and the latin word for "New" which is "Nova". Therefore, Jenova literally means "New God" as the events of FFVII begin on the first day of the 49th week of year 0007 in the "Nu" Era.

Make of that what you will...

 

[Eerie]

Interesting reading. I think though that you are missing a huge point which may affect Sephiroth: after chapter 18, it is confirmed that Aerith has lost all her Lifestream "memories" (aka her knowledge) since they were stolen by Whispers. The same may have happened to Sephiroth when they left him during the fight. So the Sephiroth we fought doesn't exist anymore, as the Planet is metaphorically "rebirthed" during that time.

Add in the Whispers duplicating Midgar, it really does add to that impression that Sephiroth and Aerith got rebooted so that the original story can keep going on (which cannot be if they have the knowledge of what's to come; why would Sephiroth kill Aerith then and not Tifa? The one from chapter 18 knew Tifa was the real threat to him, given her relationship with Cloud).

In short, the Sephiroth who was at the end of time may not exist anymore. Sephiroth from Northern Crater drew knowledge from him (they had the same intent), just like I suspect Aerith from the future in the Lifestream sent herself that knowledge to counter Sephiroth. So personally I do feel that this "Planet rebirthed" may have rebooted the future so that future!Sephiroth and future!Aerith stop interfering in the story. It also may be limited to the place we saw it - aka inside the Lifestream itself.

It is to note that Zack sees a very different Midgar too, as noted in this video, and I think it's because the Whispers had not finished to duplicate it properly. Zack's side of the story may also be a bridge towards ACC, and explain how he hasn't melted yet with the Lifestream. Or the ending will have completely changed and ACC won't "happen" so to speak.

 

[ProfessorGast]

Interesting reading. I think though that you are missing a huge point which may affect Sephiroth: after chapter 18, it is confirmed that Aerith has lost all her Lifestream "memories" (aka her knowledge) since they were stolen by Whispers. The same may have happened to Sephiroth when they left him during the fight. So the Sephiroth we fought doesn't exist anymore, as the Planet is metaphorically "rebirthed" during that time.

I'm not sure how much this affects the planet as being reborn as 'JenovaGaia' (<-- don't like the term, but I can't come up with anything better). The last we see of the whispers is when they are absorbed by Sephiroth in the Singularity. The whispers are the planet's lifestream. More specifcially, I believe they are the lifestream made from the memories from the old timeline. Memories that will (theoretcially) cease to exist should the new timeline be allowed to proceed. But, that doesn't mean they are gone forever.
Aerith's being who she is had connection with the whispers and she has lost her knowledge that was associated with their memories. Being absorbed by Sephiroth would imply that the planet's old memories are now with him. Which in turn facilitated the return of Ore Sephiroth.
More importantly though, (future) Sephiroth having those memories basically gives him another tool to use as manipulation over Aerith. Not to mention that he could hold them hostage. Something I have speculated about is the Huge Materia and whether that will come into play regarding this subject.

Add in the Whispers duplicating Midgar, it really does add to that impression that Sephiroth and Aerith got rebooted so that the original story can keep going on (which cannot be if they have the knowledge of what's to come; why would Sephiroth kill Aerith then and not Tifa? The one from chapter 18 knew Tifa was the real threat to him, given her relationship with Cloud).

They made more than a few hints to killing Tifa. Rebirth's trailer also has Tifa saying "Do you think I'm some kind of Imposter?" in a very defensive tone which doesn't match the dialogoge of the OG Kalm flashback. All I'm gonna say is that something is up with that. One suspicion of mine is that Tifa doesn't exist in the new timeline. Either that or she dies at the Nibelheim incident. The reason is due to the amount of throwbacks to earlier scripts. In which case. Tifa's character was added very late in development which is why Aerith is in her place in the FFVII PS1 demo CDs.
As for what protects Cloud and Co from changing in the new timeline. I suspect that it will have to do with their memories of one another as a collective consciousness of sorts. Notice how in the singularity, they experience all future visions as a collective? I suspect they are all tethered to Cloud and/or Aerith in some way. This would theoretically mean they are from a 'different' lifestream which makes me wonder how Aerith's abilities would (or would not) work on 'this' planet.

In short, the Sephiroth who was at the end of time may not exist anymore. Sephiroth from Northern Crater drew knowledge from him (they had the same intent), just like I suspect Aerith from the future in the Lifestream sent herself that knowledge to counter Sephiroth. So personally I do feel that this "Planet rebirthed" may have rebooted the future so that future!Sephiroth and future!Aerith stop interfering in the story. It also may be limited to the place we saw it - aka inside the Lifestream itself.

Ore Sephiroth is a huge mystery. I think he still exists, but I don't expect that we'll meet with him again until the end of Rebirth, if not Part 3. The impression I got from Ore Sephiroth from the dialogue is that he's gonna sit this one out. Probably because he knows what will happen and that there is nothing that can be done to change it. Therefore he expects cloud to reconsider his offer in their 'next meeting'.
That is an oversimplification, but neither here nor there AFAIC because I don't think we'll see Ore Sephiroth for a long time based on that interaction alone.

It is to note that Zack sees a very different Midgar too, as noted in this video, and I think it's because the Whispers had not finished to duplicate it properly. Zack's side of the story may also be a bridge towards ACC, and explain how he hasn't melted yet with the Lifestream. Or the ending will have completely changed and ACC won't "happen" so to speak.

I'm very torn on these things. There are tons upon tons of errors in Midgar, yet there are also many painstaking details they got right. It makes one wonder for sure. One thing I beleive to be intentional is the Sqaure reactor bodies shown after mako explosion at the end of Remake. This is simply because Midgar's reactors were NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER shaped like that. So why would you make them like that? If this is a mistake, then they basically 'stuck the square peg in the round hole' on this one. That said, I know of one error that is observed by the characters which puts it in the foreground.

Presidential Suite - Chapter 9 - If you look on the wall to Heidegger's left, you'll see the door which leads to the Helipad. This is correct to OG as the door to the helipad is on the building's west side as the president's desk faces south toward reactor #5.

Presidential Suite - Chapter 17- Upon entering the presidential suite after leaving the drum, you'll see the door is now moved to the west side. This is observed by Aerith and Nanaki as they will periodically stare at the wall where the door and the President's corpse are supposed to be, meanwhile Barrett and Tifa are concerned with the matters directly at hand. One thing to note here is that the video erroneously says that the trail of barney blood is on the wrong side. Technically not true though. I think what confuses people is how the staircase spins the player around.

IMO, once a discrepancy has been observed by characters or NPCs, it is in the foreground and therefore has significance. As I said in my OP there is ALOT of weird stuff about the drum. There's the bridge as you mentioned among so many other things. On top of that, there are the esoteric references all over the place in the upper 10 floors of Shinra HQ. I could make a huge thread over this subject alone. Despite all of that, I still can't say that I know exactly what happened here. What I can say is that it is more than what meets the eye. Just looking at the continuity of the story, there is a clear difference between everything that happens prior to the drum and everything that happens after it. And that in of itself might be the biggest clue along with Marco's appearance in Shinra HQ in the previous chapter.

The electronics begin glitching out from the holograms to the robots in Shinra HQ. Given that everything is mako powered, there exists an inherent connection the lifestream. Therefore, it could be surmised that a corrupted lifestream would cause this effect. We see this in the following chapter with the creepy robots. "mayor very bad", 'mayor explosive', "mayor the best", "mako explosive'. It's funny how the only mention of mako is with the word "explosive".

The glicthes in Conjection with Marco/Sephiroth's appearance on the 69th floor is the point where the new timeline has begun to corrupt the old timeline that exists only in Midgar and protected by the whispers. This results in an unraveling as we witness the butterfly effect play out in realtime. Devices that are connected with the lifestream via mako are most effected by it because they are connected to the lifestream by virtue of being mako powered. Hence, the holograms, robots and Cosmos Theatre.

There is a possibility that some glitches are the result of corrupted memories and/or glimpses of alternate timelines as the battle inside the singularity takes place. While, I wouldn't call every discrepancy evidence of this. The ones that I would cite are the ones observed by the characters and the ones that seem more intentional such as the square reactors.

All of that said, the Sector 5 church is way too different (it's more than just the wooden cross) from the one in Remake to call it an accident. Therefore, I mark it as a change to the timeline.

Going back to what I said earlier about Cloud and Co. My belief is that they can exist in the new timeline perhaps through protection from the singularity. But Aerith said that they would be changing themselves, so I have the belive this protection is limited. In which case, it is probably limited relative to the axes of the two timelines. The further the new one drifts apart from theirs, the more they jeopardize their existence. Which would put them in a predicament as changing destiny as they've set out to do would backfire on them. Which means they would have to take a similar role to that of the whispers if they want to exist. Or.....

They can exist in a changed destiny through their collective memories of each other. This is still limited, but it can allow for more freedom in a story telling aspect.

 

[ProfessorGast]

Regarding Cloud and Co's protection in the new timeline, another possibility that I just thought is that the protection is through Ore Sephiroth. Not because he's a good guy. Rather because he won't let 'this' Cloud die. Something to point out is that Ore Sephiroth is connected to the old timeline too, thus would have interest in protecting those he's connected to.

But Is I've said, it is hard to discern what Ore Sephiroth's motivations are, let alone the nature of his existence in Remake which could still be in Cloud's mind for all we know as I am inclined to..... assume that..... may be..... the case. All we have is their brief dialogue to go off of and this is the first and only instance of Ore Sephiroth post Nibelheim incident. So, what would a post Nibelheim incident Ore Sephiroth do in a new timeline?

Beats me.

Going off of my impression from the dialogue, I would surmise that he is of neutral alignment and cares not of the affairs of the planet for he believes that it is a lost cause. But he is still bound to the planet just as he is bound to Cloud. So, he lets Cloud 'try things his way' knowing they will meet again under similar circumstances.

 

[Strangelove]

i have to disagree with the translation of that book, at least the latter half

忠犬スタンプファンクラブ「スタンプブリーダー」著

this looks like the author credit rather than a book name, 著 here used to indicate authorship (i always assumed it was shorthand for 著者) since it is suffixed after a name (the stamp fan club, 'stamp breeder').

 

[ProfessorGast]

i have to disagree with the translation of that book, at least the latter half

忠犬スタンプファンクラブ「スタンプブリーダー」著

this looks like the author credit rather than a book name, 著 here used to indicate authorship (i always assumed it was shorthand for 著者) since it is suffixed after a name (the stamp fan club, 'stamp breeder').

I don't know Japanese, but I know enough about the messy translation issues not to trust an auto translator.
All I can say is that it was done by a real person from the translation sub reddit. As for how professional it was, I cannot say. Even professional English to Japanese translations produce different results, hence my first point.

But for what it is worth, I did just open up my Ultimania and tried google translate on this and it produced a similar, but not quite the same result.

Front
"Invitation from Stamps" (plural?)
"Chuken Stamp Fan Club"
"Stamp Breeder"

Spine:
"Invitation from Stamps"

The back was could not be translated. But take that for what it is worth. While I was surprised to find out that it worked as good as it did, I would be skeptical on whether it could pick up subtle details such as authorship indications.

That said, could it be to indicate that the book or postcard is authored by or from the "Stamp Fan Club" or "Stamp Breeders"?

I am certainly open to other opinions and other translations as none other exist online. In the same sense, I feel like the fact that it says "Stamp Breeder" is enough to raise my eyebrow considering it is Stamp's last appearance as a beagle and where it happens to be located in game. Everything else, including the fan club part could very well have no meaning which I pointed out. Stamp is already associated with the SOLDIER program and the 'fan club' aspect interesting even if it is neither here nor there.

 

[Strangelove]

i imagine the machine translation might gotten plural 'stamps' because it doe

That said, could it be to indicate that the book or postcard is authored by or from the "Stamp Fan Club" or "Stamp Breeders"?

that is how i read it. "stamp breeders" being is those square brackets (「」) to show it's a name of something, with the preceding text (on another line here because of its length) describing what's being named. that's a common way to give a name and description of something.

as another example, the same format is used to give weiss' title before his name on the intergrade website: 純白の帝王「ヴァイス」
https://www.jp.square-enix.com/ffviir_ig/

or from one of the official ff7 sites, describing the shinra company as "a business that monopolises mako, the planet's life energy": 星の生命エネルギー魔晄を独占する企業「神羅カンパニー」
https://www.jp.square-enix.com/ff7sp/

since this is a book cover, 著 tends to denote the author if used (which it isn't always). sometimes it proceeds the name, such as the cover of the 'death stranding' novelisation: 著　野島一人

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/0z0Az2H

or after the name, which i believe is happening in the stamp book here. or from a cover for a 'record of lodoss war' novel where the author is shown as: 水野　良　著

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/QyiBylX

 

[ProfessorGast]

Thanks.
One thing I am a little confused about is the term 'book' because of how the Ultimania depiction looks more like a postcard that was made into a book cover with a mailing envelope on the front.
So is it a postcard or is it a book? Or maybe it's like a flyer to get you to join the club and buy the book.

 

[Strangelove]

i can't remember how the ultimania described it, i have both the material books for ff7r but it's been a while since i went through them. it looks like a design for a dust jacket, since it has a standard layout for japanese books. front cover has the title, author, and that little text at the bottom centre would be the publisher (hard to make out from the image but if i had to guess based on what it looks like i'd say something like 神羅文庫). the spine has the title, then author, then publisher, then id numbers right at the bottom. the back cover isn't shown on the image in this thread, but it has a barcode, a story blurb (which might not even be actual words and just random characters to look like a blurb), and more numbers. the placement or alignment of elements is sometimes different or missing in the case of the blurb but it looks like a regular book cover.

comparing it with actual books, i'd say it's safe to assume book cover over postcard/flyer:
https://jp.mercari.com/item/m35667236477
https://jp.mercari.com/item/m40177123156
https://jp.mercari.com/item/m51275950206
https://jp.mercari.com/item/m38216429254
https://jp.mercari.com/item/m58794843153

 

[Eerie]

Since your post is long I'm just going to note a few things that I'm not sure I agree with:

I'm not sure how much this affects the planet as being reborn as 'JenovaGaia' (<-- don't like the term, but I can't come up with anything better). The last we see of the whispers is when they are absorbed by Sephiroth in the Singularity. The whispers are the planet's lifestream. More specifcially, I believe they are the lifestream made from the memories from the old timeline. Memories that will (theoretcially) cease to exist should the new timeline be allowed to proceed. But, that doesn't mean they are gone forever.

If we look at Aerith and the theory that the Planet was rebirthed, then... they are creating a new future, so the Lifestream cannot carry memories of the future anymore. Remake has harped on destiny a lot (as did the OG so it's not a new theme), but it also created a way for the characters to believe they'd be forging a new future - while neither Aerith or Red XIII were able to understand that the old future was the good ending.

It is to note that the devs have said *numerous* times by now that the story is remaining the same, so I think it's also a way to create expectations for the players. But we are going to follow more or less the OG in Rebirth, only things will be different but the same at the same time, like Remake was very different yet similar.

They made more than a few hints to killing Tifa. Rebirth's trailer also has Tifa saying "Do you think I'm some kind of Imposter?" in a very defensive tone which doesn't match the dialogoge of the OG Kalm flashback. All I'm gonna say is that something is up with that. One suspicion of mine is that Tifa doesn't exist in the new timeline. Either that or she dies at the Nibelheim incident. The reason is due to the amount of throwbacks to earlier scripts. In which case. Tifa's character was added very late in development which is why Aerith is in her place in the FFVII PS1 demo CDs.

I think that you haven't thought about what Remake showed us in terms of their roles, nor have thought about their roles at all (and possibly haven't read ToTP which has been entirely fan translated, and showcases that Tifa is a survivor). This is not a nod to pre-FFVII, they're not going back there. They have two heroines who each have a very distinct role and they cannot fill the other's role.

Aerith's role is with the overarching plot, and that is shown through her scenes with Cloud, which talk about Sephiroth, the future of the Planet, her powers, the Cetra.

Tifa's role is with the intimate plot, she's the only one who can help him with him fake personality trouble, and that is shown through intimate scenes, as well as a lot of touching between the two (because they will become lovers under the Highwind), and her worry for him.

SE cannot and doesn't want to kill Tifa, but boy do they want us to ponder about it. I think this is why Sephiroth has probably lost his memories too, because elsewise, he would try to target her.

I do think that her line in the trailer does not happen during the Kalm flashback (all the lines are juggled to make a persistent illusion of who is talking to who and create a sense of expectation). @Makoeyes987 wondered if it happened during Northern Crater and it may very well be there, but I'm also thinking it could happen as an answer to others when they reach Nibelheim and see it in a pristine state and start to question Cloud's memories. The OG never looked at Cloud and Tifa when they first reached Nibelheim, neither at the others' reactions to it, but I think this time it will be vastly different because it's such a WTF moment if you think about it.

But Aerith said that they would be changing themselves

​

That's not what she says in French, which I think follows the JP closely here: "Know well... that by going through it, we're changing our lives."

It's annoying but it's an error made by a lot of theorycrafters because the EN translation is sloppy at important times >_<

 

[Golden Ear]

That Tifa line could be from the Kalm flashback. If Cloud doesn't remember how Tifa survived after she got slashed I don't think it's out of the question for her to be like- Well why don't you remember what happened to me Cloud? I'm alive aren't I?

I guess the difference from the OG is Tifa would a bit more forward in testing Cloud's memories but at the same time we all ready saw her (in Ch.3 for example) probe Cloud a bit more at this point in the story than she every did in the OG.

 

[ProfessorGast]

Since your post is long I'm just going to note a few things that I'm not sure I agree with:



If we look at Aerith and the theory that the Planet was rebirthed, then... they are creating a new future, so the Lifestream cannot carry memories of the future anymore. Remake has harped on destiny a lot (as did the OG so it's not a new theme), but it also created a way for the characters to believe they'd be forging a new future - while neither Aerith or Red XIII were able to understand that the old future was the good ending.

It is to note that the devs have said *numerous* times by now that the story is remaining the same, so I think it's also a way to create expectations for the players. But we are going to follow more or less the OG in Rebirth, only things will be different but the same at the same time, like Remake was very different yet similar.

The thing is without another canonical reference to time travel in FFVII leaves alot of uncertainty on how this works with the concept of memories and a lifestream. Therefore, educated guesses are required. One of Aerith's lines in Rebirth's trailer "The past is forever" suggests to me that the memories of the old timeline and it's inhabitants (in terms of their consciousness) still exist in some form. The underlying theme of of many esoteric concepts similar to that of the lifestream is that energy cannot completely vanish. I have thought of a few ways this could wok in Rebirth. Sephiroth having absorbed the whispers seems to be the most obvious and apparent conclusion in that regard.
Regarding changes to the story, I generally agree that Rebirth will be very much like Remake in terms of adherence to the original plot and lore. In that sense, many of the changes are really going to take the form of 'adaptations' so as to be a background change rather than a foreground change.
However, by the time it is all said and done and the Trilogy is complete, there will be some big changes coming down the road. They are going to have to reconcile these timelines somehow and provide an explanation for the events which caused them. That is going to require big changes no matter how you slice it.
That said, I expect Rebirth to follow the pattern of Remake but in a different form. Cloud and Co will mostly adhere to OGs story to the near end as brief glimpses of Zack's story will serve to unravel the mystery in between. All of which will lead to a revelation at the end similar to Chapter 18 which leads us to part III. And part III will be a completely new story which will serve to reveal the mysteries presented to us in Remake and Rebirth.

I think that you haven't thought about what Remake showed us in terms of their roles, nor have thought about their roles at all (and possibly haven't read ToTP which has been entirely fan translated, and showcases that Tifa is a survivor). This is not a nod to pre-FFVII, they're not going back there. They have two heroines who each have a very distinct role and they cannot fill the other's role.

Aerith's role is with the overarching plot, and that is shown through her scenes with Cloud, which talk about Sephiroth, the future of the Planet, her powers, the Cetra.

Tifa's role is with the intimate plot, she's the only one who can help him with him fake personality trouble, and that is shown through intimate scenes, as well as a lot of touching between the two (because they will become lovers under the Highwind), and her worry for him.

SE cannot and doesn't want to kill Tifa, but boy do they want us to ponder about it. I think this is why Sephiroth has probably lost his memories too, because elsewise, he would try to target her.

I do think that her line in the trailer does not happen during the Kalm flashback (all the lines are juggled to make a persistent illusion of who is talking to who and create a sense of expectation). @Makoeyes987 wondered if it happened during Northern Crater and it may very well be there, but I'm also thinking it could happen as an answer to others when they reach Nibelheim and see it in a pristine state and start to question Cloud's memories. The OG never looked at Cloud and Tifa when they first reached Nibelheim, neither at the others' reactions to it, but I think this time it will be vastly different because it's such a WTF moment if you think about it.

I have thought about this actually. The mention of killing Tifa isn't central to my theory. It is just a mention as to how it could be a nod to earlier versions of the script. Tifa was one of the lasts characters to be added in the game as Aerith and Tifa were originally written as one character in terms of their roles. This is why Aerith is shown in Tifa's place in the first version of the FFVII demo disc. The second version however, has Tifa because the devs had added her into the game by that point.
That said, I do believe they are reverting to an earlier version of FFVII in an 'adaptive sense' as I have found numerous nods to these earlier concepts. Some of which are just tributes that have no effect on the story, such as Barret getting killed, or Marle's 'witch-like' appearance as a tribute to the FFVII Edea who never was just as the detective from Denzel's story is a nod to "Hot Blooded Detective Joe".
On the other hand, there are more overt elements such as the return of the numerous occult natured elements pertaining to Sephiroth and Jenova which were central tenets to FFVIIs early script many of which were left behind in FF7 when these elements became FF8s story. Does this mean it's going to be changed to a story about sorcery? No. What I think it means is that the devs want to reinstate these elements and adapt them to FFVIIs current lore as a means to restore their 'original' vision of that story. Whatever that might have been. For example, the Thaumaturge was the precursor to SOLDIER, and they can reinstate those sorcery elements back into SOLDIER. (I think they might be doing this in FF7: TFS already).
This going back into what I was saying how the original concepts for Jenova was for it to be a part of everyone and something people had to live with. Thinking about it like that, it doesn't sound much different from the central theme of having to accept loss, suffering and despair. Ultimately is is about balance which for now serves as an undertone. An undertone that is poised to become an overtone. Or at least that's how I'm seeing it.
It is hard to say how much of the early script will become part of the story and how it will be adapted, but a good indicator to me is when it is something that the complication has already been pushing in some way. Such as the theme of balance expressed in 7th Heaven's logo and how it aligns to Aries and Libra in the Greek model of the solar system. In the utmost simplest terms, balance means just accepting good with the bad.

View attachment 12922​

That's not what she says in French, which I think follows the JP closely here: "Know well... that by going through it, we're changing our lives."

It's annoying but it's an error made by a lot of theorycrafters because the EN translation is sloppy at important times >_<

I can't speak for all theorycrafters, but the way I always took this line was to mean that they would be changing their history and thus, changing themselves. To 'change one's life' sounds even closer to that which I described as changing your life can be changing your history, or 'future history' in the same way Marty's parents were changed in Back to the Future series. Their history changed which in turned changed who they are in each version of 1985.
Another interpretation could be simply changing their future going forward, that seems less plausible to me due to the former being a central tenet to time travel in fiction. How this works in a story involving memory and a lifestream is where things get complicated. There is also the fact that we've seen no observable change in our characters (yet). But they haven't been in this new timeline for very long either.

 

[ProfessorGast]

That Tifa line could be from the Kalm flashback. If Cloud doesn't remember how Tifa survived after she got slashed I don't think it's out of the question for her to be like- Well why don't you remember what happened to me Cloud? I'm alive aren't I?

I guess the difference from the OG is Tifa would a bit more forward in testing Cloud's memories but at the same time we all ready saw her (in Ch.3 for example) probe Cloud a bit more at this point in the story than she every did in the OG.

It couuld be. and FWIW, my Tifa mention is neither here nor there. I just find her defensive tome while she says that to be very curious. Like someone has accused her of being an imposter for some reason. And looking at how many nods there are to the original script, I can't help but think her death in the other timeline is one of them.
To be clear, I am not sure how "aware" Cloud and Co are in regards to them being in another timeline. Even if that is obvious to us, this aspect is an overused trope in time travel fiction where the person who traveled time or to another timeline is somehow unaware that they did so and figures it out by reading a newspaper or something. It is so overused to the point where I practically expect it.
That said, I wonder if Tifa is dead in this timeline and Cloud and Co learn that by reading a newspaper, thus leading them to question who she really is because they somehow forgot they walked out of a singularity.

It probably seems like reaching because that's what it is for the most part. Neither here nor there. And Tifa being dead in the new timeline doesn't effect anything because she's still alive from the old one due to the 'singularity'. In that sense, it could be a nod to her character not having existed in early versions of the script as she and Aerith were the same character. This would be along the lines of Barrett's death in Chapter 17 (also part of the early script) and immediate resurrection making it inconsequential.

 

[Eerie]

That Tifa line could be from the Kalm flashback. If Cloud doesn't remember how Tifa survived after she got slashed I don't think it's out of the question for her to be like- Well why don't you remember what happened to me Cloud? I'm alive aren't I?

Maybe it truly is and it's really the only lines that answer each other in the trailer. I'm just not really sure it's placed where it looks like it's placed. I think this trailer plays right into the illusions they have built from Remake, so eh, who knows. I feel it's maybe a little early for this kind of convo between the two since well... Cloud literally needs Tifa's faith in him to be able to continue the illusion.

The thing is without another canonical reference to time travel in FFVII

I really don't know how you got that I thought about time travel because if there's a theory I think does not make sense, it's time travel lol - except if you're talking about Sephiroth in the Lifestream, because we know he's travelled back and forth already in the OG. I'm talking about memories from the Lifestream which encompass the birth of the Planet to its death, and that both future!Aerith and future!Sephiroth had access to (whether they still do is up to debate). For reference, I believe that "Rebirth" is indeed a nod to Sephiroth being "rebirthed" at the end of the second game because I believe we'll go up to the Northern Crater and that's when the true Sephiroth is back.

One of Aerith's lines in Rebirth's trailer "The past is forever" suggests to me that the memories of the old timeline and it's inhabitants (in terms of their consciousness) still exist in some form.

Her line in the French trailer is "let's not think about the past but rather the future" which is completely different from the English and from memory, also in line with the JP.

However, by the time it is all said and done and the Trilogy is complete, there will be some big changes coming down the road.

I do believe that some changes are indeed up, and I think that the biggest changes could happen at the very end. I've always regarded as bizarre that we end up fighting Sephiroth in Remake just like we did in the OG, only way way earlier; to me that is significant because I do not think that SE is going to make the same ending fight again. So I think there will be a lot of differences there. Also my other belief is that they can't have big changes like a lot of people expect before Cloud regains his memories, which will only be in the last game.

It is just a mention as to how it could be a nod to earlier versions of the script. Tifa was one of the lasts characters to be added in the game as Aerith and Tifa were originally written as one character in terms of their roles.

See, this is one of the things that annoy me with theorycrafters, it's that they think that Tifa as a character is not important so she can be discarded when she is absolutely central to FFVII/R. Anyone who truly thinks Tifa can be killed and her role given entirely to Aerith will get eye sided by me, really, this forum knows something about it xD

But I do get your point, I just don't think that it's possible. Tifa is a random girl from a village faaaaaaaaar away who wasn't known by anyone but Cloud, Zangan and her 3 friends who ended up in Midgar - the others are dead. Sure in Midgar she became more known in sector 7, but given what happened to sector 7... to me it doesn't make sense so we have to take it that she's either answering Cloud or someone from the gang. The logical scenes would be Kalm (but it's weird for her to answer that way to Cloud just because he thought she was dead), Nibelheim or Northern Crater (and there Cloud would be really offffff and unhinged). So I do think her line is really interesting, as it's new and truly hard to place.

For all those nods to early concepts, there are also nods to the Lifestream scene as well as the Highwind scene.

But I'm not really sure about what's going on with timelines; one of my current favourite theories is that they are on the normal timeline and Zack is in a timeline inside the Lifestream, which protects him from melting with it (thanks to Aerith who protected him somehow). To me, this could possibly be the closing gap to ACC and Zack being still there, because the devs have to explain it somehow how he's not part of the Lifestream yet, two years after. Also I believe that Zack's line is to Cloud, because he doesn't know how to get him out of his comatose state.

This going back into what I was saying how the original concepts for Jenova was for it to be a part of everyone and something people had to live with.

This sounds an awful lot like Geostigma, doesn't it?

 

[ProfessorGast]

Maybe it truly is and it's really the only lines that answer each other in the trailer. I'm just not really sure it's placed where it looks like it's placed. I think this trailer plays right into the illusions they have built from Remake, so eh, who knows. I feel it's maybe a little early for this kind of convo between the two since well... Cloud literally needs Tifa's faith in him to be able to continue the illusion.

At the end of the day, I don't take much of anything I saw or heard to be 'significant' in the trailer with the exception of 'this planet'. I really would like to know what that is about. Though I already have an idea.

I really don't know how you got that I thought about time travel because if there's a theory I think does not make sense, it's time travel lol - except if you're talking about Sephiroth in the Lifestream, because we know he's travelled back and forth already in the OG. I'm talking about memories from the Lifestream which encompass the birth of the Planet to its death, and that both future!Aerith and future!Sephiroth had access to (whether they still do is up to debate).

The reason I mentioned Time Travel is because it is hard to discern how something like that would work with a lifestream. But I didn't write the story. Im just trying to figure it out. Looking at FF8s closeness to FF7 Remake. I feel like it's the next best thing to canon until we get canon. But even that only goes so far. My theories on Sephiroth are complicated and they have to do with what I have learned from Sepher Sephiroth which is a post I'm working on. But I'll try to putt things simply as I can.

Future Sephiroth is the consciousness of Watashi Sephiroth that has survived until the end of time. This is the same as 'Future Aerith" who died and existed apart from time. Watashi Sephiroth's manipulation of history has broken Aerith's connection with her future self by erasing the event that is her death. This is something that was happening slowly throughout Remake as the new timeline conflicted with the old timeline, it weakened Aerith's connection causing her to forget and lose her connection with the planet and hence, lost her command over the whispers by the time the story begins.
Then starting with Rebirth, her death is no longer the future, and thus she has broken connection with her future consciousness. Leaving everything up to Watashi Sephiroth.

Entities existing outside of time would perceive time as a physical object they can manipulate to their will. Hence, I beleive this to be the same Entity that Nanaki describes as Gilligan in On the Way to a Smile.

Lastly, I should point out that I don't know exactly where Ore Sephiroth stands in all of this. The only thing that is clear to me is that Watashi Sephiroth seems to be an entity that is entirely different from Ore Sephiroth. I

For reference, I believe that "Rebirth" is indeed a nod to Sephiroth being "rebirthed" at the end of the second game because I believe we'll go up to the Northern Crater and that's when the true Sephiroth is back.

I believe we will go this far in Rebirth, if not very close. However, I expect we'll start to see things deviate right around the raid on Sector 8 because that would bring us back full circle with Midgar, Hojo and whatever scheme he's cooking up. I have a gut feeling that something is gonna be different there and that it will mirror the events of Chapter 17.

Her line in the French trailer is "let's not think about the past but rather the future" which is completely different from the English and from memory, also in line with the JP.

I do believe that some changes are indeed up, and I think that the biggest changes could happen at the very end. I've always regarded as bizarre that we end up fighting Sephiroth in Remake just like we did in the OG, only way way earlier; to me that is significant because I do not think that SE is going to make the same ending fight again. So I think there will be a lot of differences there. Also my other belief is that they can't have big changes like a lot of people expect before Cloud regains his memories, which will only be in the last game.

Regarding Cloud, I think something bad is going to happen to OG Cloud and that we're going to See Zack mentor Cloud into becoming a real SOLDIER in the same way Angeal did.

See, this is one of the things that annoy me with theorycrafters, it's that they think that Tifa as a character is not important so she can be discarded when she is absolutely central to FFVII/R. Anyone who truly thinks Tifa can be killed and her role given entirely to Aerith will get eye sided by me, really, this forum knows something about it xD

But I do get your point, I just don't think that it's possible. Tifa is a random girl from a village faaaaaaaaar away who wasn't known by anyone but Cloud, Zangan and her 3 friends who ended up in Midgar - the others are dead. Sure in Midgar she became more known in sector 7, but given what happened to sector 7... to me it doesn't make sense so we have to take it that she's either answering Cloud or someone from the gang. The logical scenes would be Kalm (but it's weird for her to answer that way to Cloud just because he thought she was dead), Nibelheim or Northern Crater (and there Cloud would be really offffff and unhinged). So I do think her line is really interesting, as it's new and truly hard to place.
{?QUOTE] I understand Tifa's importance. All I was saying is that they might change her history in the new timeline in a way that doesn't effect her existence. Like if she died in the new timeline, it really doesn't matter because of the singularity. It is kinda lazy writing, but that happens in time travel fiction all the time.

But I'm not really sure about what's going on with timelines; one of my current favourite theories is that they are on the normal timeline and Zack is in a timeline inside the Lifestream, which protects him from melting with it (thanks to Aerith who protected him somehow). To me, this could possibly be the closing gap to ACC and Zack being still there, because the devs have to explain it somehow how he's not part of the Lifestream yet, two years after. Also I believe that Zack's line is to Cloud, because he doesn't know how to get him out of his comatose state.

That could be. I've been more leaning toward the opposite. Either that or they are in the same timeline. As I said earlier, I could see Zack's story almost like a Sequel to Crisis Core where Zack takes the role of Angeal and Cloud as Zack. Thus making Cloud a real SOLDIER and possibly correct all of his identity issues.

This sounds an awful lot like Geostigma, doesn't it?

Precisely my point.

One thing I forgot to point out about Jenova is that it doesn't always produce corrupt forms. There is a yin/yang element with Jenova cells that seems to depend on the person. Angeal and Genesis are prime examples as the former has a divine form, while the latter has a corrupt form. Which is accurate to who they are. Safer Sephiroth is something in between which is also accurate.

 

[Eerie]

Your post really made me look at a feeling I've had with Zack and Cloud that we see both in Remake, Integrade and the Rebirth trailed; this feeling I have that Zack's line is him apologising to Cloud because he can't help him, and didn't find a way to.

If my theory about Zack is right, then of course Cloud cannot be "alive" in his timeline, since Zack is sort of dead and Cloud isn't. But what if the Cloud body he has with him is where Cloud's true consciousness lives for now? I think one of the most WTF scenes from the OG is when Tifa saves him in the Lifestream. She leaps into his consciousness and patches him back towards his true self. But the question I've always had is "why is Cloud's consciousness in the Lifestream, why is it like a protected zone from the rest? Where exactly does this take place?"

If Zack has with him Cloud's consciousness and travels around with him then maybe we'll see the origin of that; when Cloud's true body and his consciousness are reunited is when the Lifestream scene can happen, when Cloud can't reconcile who he truly is with who he thought he was. In a way, that would also connect to Jessie's father, whom she believed was lost in the Lifestream: it's the same concept, only we're seeing Zack trying to help him along the way.

Like this it also becomes more evident for the players that the Cloud we have in Remake is "fake" (a real body but semi-controlled by Jenova, has Zack's memories mixed with his) while Zack has with him his consciousness (no real body, in a state where he's sort of prisonner because he has no access to his real body).

I will say it again, but at no point Zack will ever be able to help Cloud being back; there's only one memory that allows that and that's reserved to Tifa. It's her role so she cannot be robbed of this.

This incidentally also made me realise the way Cloud made it to Midgar after Zack's death: he was in a sort of clone state and was being called by Jenova (we see that in Remake, but also in Intermission with Yuffie, the clones are already feeling the Reunion). But being a clone means travelling really slowly so yeah.

 

[ProfessorGast]

Your post really made me look at a feeling I've had with Zack and Cloud that we see both in Remake, Integrade and the Rebirth trailed; this feeling I have that Zack's line is him apologising to Cloud because he can't help him, and didn't find a way to.

I've wondered about the apologetic line. But it's so hard to say without more context. The two Clouds thing has always had me perplexed.

If my theory about Zack is right, then of course Cloud cannot be "alive" in his timeline, since Zack is sort of dead and Cloud isn't. But what if the Cloud body he has with him is where Cloud's true consciousness lives for now? I think one of the most WTF scenes from the OG is when Tifa saves him in the Lifestream. She leaps into his consciousness and patches him back towards his true self. But the question I've always had is "why is Cloud's consciousness in the Lifestream, why is it like a protected zone from the rest? Where exactly does this take place?"

If Zack has with him Cloud's consciousness and travels around with him then maybe we'll see the origin of that; when Cloud's true body and his consciousness are reunited is when the Lifestream scene can happen, when Cloud can't reconcile who he truly is with who he thought he was. In a way, that would also connect to Jessie's father, whom she believed was lost in the Lifestream: it's the same concept, only we're seeing Zack trying to help him along the way.

My earlier theories revolved around Cloud being conscious in one timeline, and therefore unconscious in the other. This leaves gaps as it still doesn't explain having two Buster swords. The other problem is that we cannot be certain whether they are in separate timelines or the same timeline about 2 months apart. I've lately been leaning toward the latter. That said, my old theory related to the dialogue regarding Jessie's father.

Like this it also becomes more evident for the players that the Cloud we have in Remake is "fake" (a real body but semi-controlled by Jenova, has Zack's memories mixed with his) while Zack has with him his consciousness (no real body, in a state where he's sort of prisonner because he has no access to his real body).

This is something that I have grown more and more suspicious of for many reasons. First and foremost, Cloud goes missing for nearly the entire time during the Underground Lab scene. At the end, he has a flashback of being inside a mako tank. Except it is one of the tanks in the Underground Lab, not Shinra Manor.
Furthermore, I strongly suspect this lab to have played a role in the overabundance of Sephiroth Clones as described in 'Picturing the Past'. It is abandoned now because the SSU missions have stopped taking place. The very last SSU mission also just happens to be from the 'faked' drawing of Mideel. By 'faked' I mean that it wasn't from Aerith's vision and it was faked so that nobody would die. However, the result of the last SSU mission are not revealed in the story.
While on the topic of clones, something I should point out is that the only other known instance of the 'sword being cloned' along with the person is with Sephiroth Clones. As far fetched as that might seem, also keep in mind that cloning in some form is something that just tends to happen with SOLDIERS involved with the Jenova Project. How it works might vary between SOLDIER types, but it is generally known to happen.
The only person (who didn't die soon after) that it hasn't happened to is Cloud. Not 100% sure on this one, but it has been in the back of my mind. Especially after reading "Picturing the Past". I feel like that story holds alot of clues in general. the Sephiroth Clones being produced 10 years earlier than Remake in conjunction with their last SSU mission being in Mideel is too much for me to ignore.


Lastly, during the end credits, the devs are definitely expressing to us that something is off. And I feel like that something has to do with Cloud from the Singularity and Aerith's lost connection to her future consciousness. I know there are alot of people already saying that "Cloud is a ticking time bomb". I'm not sure if I wanna go quite that far (yet), but I don't think they are wrong either.

I will say it again, but at no point Zack will ever be able to help Cloud being back; there's only one memory that allows that and that's reserved to Tifa. It's her role so she cannot be robbed of this.

I don't think I agree with this. There has to be a Reason that Cloud is with Zack and unconscious and if anything, it probably has something to do with the fact that this is the 'real' Cloud. The idea of having Zack mentor Cloud doesn't necessarily have to involve taking Tifa's role away. Especially if they are in the same timeline, only months apart. Of course, I don't know what Zack's role will be. All I do know is that they said it would be important. Side note, Zack is part of that scene where Tifa brings Cloud back. And so is Watashi Sephiroth. This couldlead to an interesting setup in Rebrith.

This incidentally also made me realise the way Cloud made it to Midgar after Zack's death: he was in a sort of clone state and was being called by Jenova (we see that in Remake, but also in Intermission with Yuffie, the clones are already feeling the Reunion). But being a clone means travelling really slowly so yeah.

Its funny you bring that up because that is another thing in the back of my mind that I haven't shared with anyone. There is something else interesting in Cloud's flashback in the mako tank of the underground lab.



The flashback of this scene goes by really fast, so here is a slowed down version (link). These images seem to resemble some of the Sector 7 inhabitants and the female figure resembles that of Jessie in a wax sculpture sort of way. In Remake, they speak of how people 'go missing', so we can surmise this lab had something to do with those disappearances. The disapperances which are used to produce the 'Failed Expiriment' and the unknown entities (it's minions minions) which Cloud seems to have some kind of connection with (he's aware of their presence before anyone else in Chapter 17).
Given the partially formed wing on their backs, we can make a pretty good guess as to what these entities were supposed to be. In a way, these remind me of the "Lost Number" from Shinra Manor where the OG Sephiroth Clones were most likely produced from.
Which is what brings me back to the Underground Lab and Cloud's presence there. Because I have to wonder if the memories of the old lifestream and timeline have manifested themselves onto some of these specimens or something to that effect similar to how Aerith's visions in Picturing the Past lead to the extra Sephiroth Clones.
I should also point out that while the 'failed expiriments' were produced here, it should be understood that the term 'failed' means that it is not the desired result. In which case, I have to ask what the desired result here actually was. I'm not even sure what I'm getting at here. But this whole thing is weird considering that Cloud has a flashblack of being in place that he 'shouldn't' have memory of being in. Seeing the empty tanks in the broken wall is what triggers the memory, so this sight (should) be completley new to him. Though he has a corrupted memory, but Jenova cells have only been known to corrupt existing memories, not make new ones. And of course we know that Cloud is found in Sector 7 in OG and presumably Remake prior to the bombing mission.

This is one of those subjects that rarely gets discussed and I for one am not willing to chalk this one up to 'Jenova-Memory-Glicth' in light of everything else. That said, I don't have any explanations better than that. This is one of a few things that makes me wonder what Hojo has been cooking up for us behind the scenes. I'm also a little sus of Chadley for that matter as he's a Hojo creation with seemingly separate motivations. He must have some connection to the planets memory as he can just 'make' Materia for us with his cybernetic bare hands.

 

[Eerie]

First and foremost, Cloud goes missing for nearly the entire time during the Underground Lab scene. At the end, he has a flashback of being inside a mako tank. Except it is one of the tanks in the Underground Lab, not Shinra Manor.

&

These images seem to resemble some of the Sector 7 inhabitants and the female figure resembles that of Jessie in a wax sculpture sort of way. In Remake, they speak of how people 'go missing', so we can surmise this lab had something to do with those disappearances. The disapperances which are used to produce the 'Failed Expiriment' and the unknown entities (it's minions minions) which Cloud seems to have some kind of connection with (he's aware of their presence before anyone else in Chapter 17).

I think you are reading too much on this scene; this is both a throwback to BC (or DC? I haven't played either, so I get confused on those two) and at the same time a foreshadowing on Cloud's past - as well as the only moment where we can play as Barret as the lead. And Jenova does meddle and modifies his memories there; there should be Zack next to him and we don't see him.

Also we don't know how the basement will look like in Shinra manor: this time it will be much bigger I think and it's not far off to think that Shinra could have experimented on people getting "lost" in the mountains of Nibelheim - in this instance there could also be survivors who were used as guinea pigs. Cloud's dad even disappeared like that, and I often wonder if we're going to see him or what's left of him in Rebirth or the last game.

Lastly, during the end credits, the devs are definitely expressing to us that something is off. And I feel like that something has to do with Cloud from the Singularity and Aerith's lost connection to her future consciousness. I know there are alot of people already saying that "Cloud is a ticking time bomb". I'm not sure if I wanna go quite that far (yet), but I don't think they are wrong either.

Which end credits? Intergrade or Remake? Sorry I'm lost there. If it's the scene with Zack, Aerith and the two Cloud, it's a very telling way for Aerith to understand that she has definitely lost Zack. Yes, something's amiss but what we see is a "memory" that looks very real after Zack's Last Stand, probably before he gets killed too by 3 grunts who were after him since Nibelheim, which is the OG story. Aerith understands it's the past she's seeing; I think it's more telling that she feels that something is off at the end of Intergrade personally, before we are shown Zack at the church. But I still think Zack walked right into the place the party left, which is a copy of Midgar - an unfinished one at that, while the party got back on track. He's in a place he shouldn't be, and I still think that's why he won't melt in the Lifestream.

I don't think I agree with this. There has to be a Reason that Cloud is with Zack and unconscious and if anything, it probably has something to do with the fact that this is the 'real' Cloud. The idea of having Zack mentor Cloud doesn't necessarily have to involve taking Tifa's role away. Especially if they are in the same timeline, only months apart. Of course, I don't know what Zack's role will be. All I do know is that they said it would be important. Side note, Zack is part of that scene where Tifa brings Cloud back. And so is Watashi Sephiroth. This couldlead to an interesting setup in Rebrith.

(I can hear the sighs of TLS, but yeah, here we go AGAIN).

Cloud needs two things to become the Cloud we have met in Remake:

- he needs Zack to die, that is the moment Jenova imprints literally Cloud with Zack's memory - he becomes his living legacy (some samurai stuff as I often joke with @odekopeko since she told me about that)
- he needs to meet up with Tifa which saves him from his mako poisoning, and adopt his persona as it is the one he wants to impress her with. It's her high faith in Cloud (that he'd make it to SOLDIER no question asked) that allows him to pretend he's an ex-SOLDIER.

In your story, Zack is alive, Tifa hasn't met Cloud. No condition is fulfilled for him to be saved, which is why... he's unconscious.

Also, and this irks me quite a lot and that's always a fault with theorycrafters, I'm sorry to say, but only Tifa can help Cloud to regain his true self. In every freaking Ultimania it's Tifa who takes up this role - Zack and Sephiroth were never once mentioned because... Tifa has literally been created for this moment. This is her "heroine saves the hero" moment.

Why? Because there is only one memory that Cloud and Tifa share that can prove that Cloud is Cloud from Nibelheim, and Tifa's memory is incomplete. So Jenova cannot copy her memories to have Cloud say the right answer. Every other memory, may it be with Zack, Aerith, the rest of the gang, nothing will work because it is Jenova's power that is at work there. Only Cloud has the answer for that memory, and that's what saves him. It's such an important memory that Tifa ponders about it in ToTP and promises herself that when she'll see Cloud, she'll ask him what's the truth about it - except she can't because she's too worried about his state. And it's already been referenced in-game too!

As a side note, it's also such an intimate moment between the two, that Cloud will never speak about to anyone else, including Zack: he didn't talk about it, or even Tifa, to Zack during CC, it's not to do it now. It's literally his love confession, so yeah.

 

[ProfessorGast]

&



I think you are reading too much on this scene; this is both a throwback to BC (or DC? I haven't played either, so I get confused on those two) and at the same time a foreshadowing on Cloud's past - as well as the only moment where we can play as Barret as the lead. And Jenova does meddle and modifies his memories there; there should be Zack next to him and we don't see him.

Also we don't know how the basement will look like in Shinra manor: this time it will be much bigger I think and it's not far off to think that Shinra could have experimented on people getting "lost" in the mountains of Nibelheim - in this instance there could also be survivors who were used as guinea pigs. Cloud's dad even disappeared like that, and I often wonder if we're going to see him or what's left of him in Rebirth or the last game.

Perhaps, but I'm just throwing possibilities out there. Not settling on any specific theory or idea on what it was about. Where I beg to differ is Shinra Manor, because we've seen two other times in the compilation. While something like this could be down there, this still doesn't match it's aesthetic. And regarding memory, I've only ever known Jenova to work with existing memory. The Nibelheim incident is a good example of this. The corrupted memory is just Cloud in Zacks place with Zack's presence omitted because Cloud was still at the Nibelheim incident.. Wheras, this corruption of memory puts Cloud in a place where he's never been, and there is no known instance of that happening with Jenova corrupted memory. That said, it doesn't make it impossible. There is also the possibility of the mental link he has with those creatures printed their memories on to Cloud and he saw it as a flashback.
I seriously have no clue as to what the Underground Lab's purpose might have been which is why I have never settled on any particular theory. All I can say is that its existence in Remake is significant and likely has to do with the excess Sephiroth clones and the missing Sector 7 citizens. If I remember correctly, I think the first Sephiroth clones in Picturing the Past are sighted in the Sector 7 slums. It's potential connection to that is my main reason for being focused on it because the Sephiroth Clones in Picturing the past mark the earliest known changes to Remake's timeline that are established as Canon.

Which end credits? Intergrade or Remake? Sorry I'm lost there. If it's the scene with Zack, Aerith and the two Cloud, it's a very telling way for Aerith to understand that she has definitely lost Zack. Yes, something's amiss but what we see is a "memory" that looks very real after Zack's Last Stand, probably before he gets killed too by 3 grunts who were after him since Nibelheim, which is the OG story. Aerith understands it's the past she's seeing; I think it's more telling that she feels that something is off at the end of Intergrade personally, before we are shown Zack at the church. But I still think Zack walked right into the place the party left, which is a copy of Midgar - an unfinished one at that, while the party got back on track. He's in a place he shouldn't be, and I still think that's why he won't melt in the Lifestream.

Mostly Remake's end credits, but also Intergrade to a degree. Mostly due to ending theme Hollow and and what it probably means for Cloud post singularity.

(I can hear the sighs of TLS, but yeah, here we go AGAIN).

Cloud needs two things to become the Cloud we have met in Remake:

- he needs Zack to die, that is the moment Jenova imprints literally Cloud with Zack's memory - he becomes his living legacy (some samurai stuff as I often joke with @odekopeko since she told me about that)
- he needs to meet up with Tifa which saves him from his mako poisoning, and adopt his persona as it is the one he wants to impress her with. It's her high faith in Cloud (that he'd make it to SOLDIER no question asked) that allows him to pretend he's an ex-SOLDIER.



Also, and this irks me quite a lot and that's always a fault with theorycrafters, I'm sorry to say, but only Tifa can help Cloud to regain his true self. In every freaking Ultimania it's Tifa who takes up this role - Zack and Sephiroth were never once mentioned because... Tifa has literally been created for this moment. This is her "heroine saves the hero" moment.

Why? Because there is only one memory that Cloud and Tifa share that can prove that Cloud is Cloud from Nibelheim, and Tifa's memory is incomplete. So Jenova cannot copy her memories to have Cloud say the right answer. Every other memory, may it be with Zack, Aerith, the rest of the gang, nothing will work because it is Jenova's power that is at work there. Only Cloud has the answer for that memory, and that's what saves him. It's such an important memory that Tifa ponders about it in ToTP and promises herself that when she'll see Cloud, she'll ask him what's the truth about it - except she can't because she's too worried about his state. And it's already been referenced in-game too!

As a side note, it's also such an intimate moment between the two, that Cloud will never speak about to anyone else, including Zack: he didn't talk about it, or even Tifa, to Zack during CC, it's not to do it now. It's literally his love confession, so yeah.

[/QUOTE]

I don't think there is a requirement that Zack has to be dead or anything klike that. This is where my philosophy in theorycrafting is likely different from yours. Different in the sense that I don't beleive in 'sacred cows'. Because once you say that something has to be certain way, theories begin to form around that 'requirement' rather than the evidence presented. In doing so, explanations for certain things begin to form around those predefined requirements which results in dismissing evidence that could potentially be significant so as to support the claim.

In that regard, I look at where the evidence is going, and I happen to be in the "Zack is Alive" (for now) camp as the evidence of him being dead is mostly weak. The strongest one I've seen in that regard is the scene in the Church. But those people are obviously grieving over something/someone and people in that state of mine aren't the most aware of their surroundings.
Granted, I'm not closed to the idea of him being in the lifestream. But going back to what I said earlier about looking at the evidence. I cite the Special Survey Units in "Picturing the Past" as evidence that Zack is alive. Each of these missions involved several troops and every single one of them was a casualty. If they didn't die, they contracted severe Mako poisoning and became a Sephiroth clone. Repeat this process enough times (to make 49 Sephiroth clones?) and your army will be reduced in size. Which is what we see in Remake's version of Zack's last stand. This to me is forming theories around evidence as opposed to prerequisites. Doing that means I would have to write it off as 'coincidence' or mistake on the devs part or something to that effect. And I just don't agree with taking that path.

In your story, Zack is alive, Tifa hasn't met Cloud. No condition is fulfilled for him to be saved, which is why... he's unconscious.

Cloud being unconscious for now doesn't mean he'll remain as such. But if you ask me, this Cloud is the "Rebirth Cloud" as Remake Cloud will have come to an end by the time Rebirth ends.

I still haven't quite settled on an explanation for having the Two Clouds. But I find the possibility of Remake Cloud being a clone compelling on the basis that cloning is extremely common with Jenova cells and it's the only other known instance of swords being cloned too. However, I have zero evidence to support that actually happened. Bu then again, what else is there? Even if we explain why Rebirth Clound remains unconscious, that still doesn't explain why we have two physical bodies. If that version of Cloud was just going to vanish, then why have him there in the first place? Why not just have Zack limping by himself back to Midgar? If his extra body serves no purpose to the story, then why does it exist?

The extra body could simply be a product of the Singularity which would explain the consciousness ordeal. But we know Remake Cloud still has his false persona. Technically speaking, that doesn't exist with Rebirth Cloud. Either way. One is clearly more of a danger to himself and others and I don't see Remake Cloud making it past the end of Rebirth's story. There is also the fact that the Return of Ore Sephiroth is a strong sign that Watashi Sephiroth has moved on and is looking for another 'puppet' Rebirth Cloud could be it. But I could foresee Watashi doing alot more damage as Remake Cloud.

That said, none of this means that Tifa and Zack can't perform their respective roles. It just means they will be played out differently than before> The devs basically said all of the key plot points will happen, but in different order with some locations shuffled around. So we don't need to be as rigid in that regard. There are plenty of ways for Tifa to bring Cloud back.

On that note, I highly doubt that certain key events are going to play out as they did. Aerith's anticipated death is a big one and they are gonna play with our expectations in that regard.. This is also what gives her the upper hand against Sephiroth in OG. And I doubt that Future Sephiroth is gonna make the same mistake twice. I think once rebirth unravels into the final chapter, we are going to witness the consequences of Aerith not dying and they will be some dire consequences indeed.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think there is a requirement that Zack has to be dead or anything klike that.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490166146380750850

I asked @odekopeko and she said that yes, the translation is accurate. We are not joking when we say it's some samurai stuff level.

When he felt the weight of the sword in his hand, which inherits the will of the warriors, the power in his eyes, which had been hollow, came to life. It was the beginning of a new story.

I mean, LITERALLY. And in Reminiscene it's coming to a full circle with Cloud actually accepting that he is a hero, whose journey began where Zack died. It is fcking important that Zack dies, without him dying, nothing would have ever happened.

And while Zack is important, he can never be *more* important than Tifa herself, who is one of the two heroines; because it would mean become the hero himself and he was already the hero of his own game. A lot of theorycrafters (including one who passed by once and never answered me in the end so my criticism of his theory still holds) forget that important fact and see no problem into literally robbing Tifa of her role in the story.

While theorycrafting, people forget that:

- the devs have said countless times that the story follows the OG beats, which means that if there is any major deviation, it won't be before the end - and they have said that repeatedly since 2020
- Aerith and Tifa are BOTH heroines and the story crumbles without one because it's been written that way
- Zack is as important as Aerith to Cloud but while his role is a determining factor in the story, FFVII is not *his* story and as heroic and loveable as he is, he is not tailored to be FFVII's hero.
- Aerith dies. Sorry to say but it's a story of *loss* and if Aerith doesn't die then no one does, which doesn't make sense. Aerith's death works in context because she's the only innocent character amongst them, she's the most vulnerable and the one you agree to protect at the beginning of the game by being her bodyguard. That's why her death HURTS.

And really the number of theories I see where Zack just has this huge role? It doesn't make sense whithin the story.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They made more than a few hints to killing Tifa. Rebirth's trailer also has Tifa saying "Do you think I'm some kind of Imposter?" in a very defensive tone which doesn't match the dialogoge of the OG Kalm flashback.

Literally Cloud says he thought Tifa had died in the flashback. That makes perfect sense for that line to come in at.

SOLDIER, Sephiroth and Aerith
Earlier drafts of FF7 cast Sephiroth and Aerith as siblings, hence the similar bangs in OG.

And even earlier drafts had Tifa and Sephiroth as Siblings.

All I'm gonna say is that something is up with that. One suspicion of mine is that Tifa doesn't exist in the new timeline. Either that or she dies at the Nibelheim incident. The reason is due to the amount of throwbacks to earlier scripts. In which case. Tifa's character was added very late in development which is why Aerith is in her place in the FFVII PS1 demo CDs.

I have thought about this actually. The mention of killing Tifa isn't central to my theory. It is just a mention as to how it could be a nod to earlier versions of the script. Tifa was one of the lasts characters to be added in the game as Aerith and Tifa were originally written as one character in terms of their roles. This is why Aerith is shown in Tifa's place in the first version of the FFVII demo disc. The second version however, has Tifa because the devs had added her into the game by that point.

I believe you are incorrect that the split happened late in development. The decision to split Tifareth and kill Aerith instead of Barret and keep Tifa around had to have happened very early on in the plotting process. That is a fundamental change to the game and not one that would have been done so close to the end (To say nothing of how many FMV's Tifa is in. They knew she was in and prominent early on because those were a lot of effort for Square in the early 90s. This was their first real 3D outing after all)

That said, I do believe they are reverting to an earlier version of FFVII in an 'adaptive sense' as I have found numerous nods to these earlier concepts. Some of which are just tributes that have no effect on the story, such as Barret getting killed, or Marle's 'witch-like' appearance as a tribute to the FFVII Edea who never was just as the detective from Denzel's story is a nod to "Hot Blooded Detective Joe".

While the idea of Tifa and Aerith doing the fusion dance is hilarious, it's probably not going to happen, same with anything more substantial from the early drafts.

This going back into what I was saying how the original concepts for Jenova was for it to be a part of everyone and something people had to live with. Thinking about it like that, it doesn't sound much different from the central theme of having to accept loss, suffering and despair. Ultimately is is about balance which for now serves as an undertone. An undertone that is poised to become an overtone. Or at least that's how I'm seeing it.

Part of the issue with this is that they already packaged that one off and shipped it over to NYC for Parasite Eve. It doesn't fit with the version of Jenova they went with.

 

[jeangl123]

Stamp Breeder Book:

This translation is from Reddit by an actual person.

This interests me for many reasons. It's location in Aerith's room is just the tip of the iceberg. The translation, ""Stamp Breeder" Book" right as Hojo made several indications of his desire and plan to breed Aerith in Chapter 16. Which is incidentally named "Belly of the Beast" and is followed by "Deliverance from Chaos". The inter interesting aspect is who Hojo intends to breed Aerith as he wants to experiment with a Cetra/SOLDIER hybrid using Sephiroth's DNA from clone #49.
The book also makes reference to a fan club. Might not mean anything special, but Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal all had fan clubs in Crisis core. And they are the only fan clubs in all of FFVII from a canonical standpoint.
Most interesting of all about this book is that it is the last appearance of 'Beagle Stamp'. The next Stamp sighting occurs after the singularity where Stamp appears as a different breed of dog. So we went from "Stamp Breeder" to Stamp as a different breed of dog. And that is why I say this can't be a coincidence. We also can't forget that our escape from the Drum was entirely on Hojo's terms. He lets Cloud and Co go after 'he has all the data he needs' from them. I will come back to this comment. But in the meantime. I will explore some possibilities leading up to 'Rebrith'.



The Butterfly Effect:
Most people consider Stamp to be a representation of the Butterfly effect. That said, it doesn't mean that clues pertaining to him are insignificant. However, their significance is dependant on context. In broad sense, Stamp represents the world (or timeline) that formed him. More specifically, Stamp is a product and hence a reflection of Shinra's armed forces as Stamp is basically a mascot for war propaganda. Another product of Shinra's armed forces is the SOLDIER program and the Jenova project. Their war hero is Sephiroth who is also used for propaganda and a recruitment tool as Sephiroth is the one who inspired Cloud to enlist in SOLDIER.
Thus, Stamp's closest connection to Remake's timeline is Sephiroth and the SOLDIER program as a whole. This is where we also get the subsequent connections to Cloud and Zack as their characters are closely associated with Sephiroth and are products of the SOLDIER program even though Cloud is technically not a SOLDIER. Thus Terrier Stamp and the butterfly effect could very well represent a different breed of a particular SOLDIER, or SOLDIER(s). That doesn't mean there aren't other things connected to stamp. It is just hat SOLDEIR is the strongest and most obvious connection to be made.


Crisis Core Reunion:
The devs hav said that no changes will be made to this game's story. And I believe them... For now. That said, it is clear that they are showing us this for a reason. Which they said is to get players familiarized with the backstory because it connects to both FF7 and FF7R. That much is obvious. The reason I bring it up is because Crisis Core is basically a story about the SOLDIER program and the tragic results of it. Fan clubs aside, I also think this is where our most likely candidates for a Cetra/SOLIDER hybrid in Rebirth's timeline.


Cetra/SOLDIER Hyrbid Possibilities - Sephiroth:
This one is the most obvious and for obvious reasons. The only thing is that we kinda have enough Sephiroths running around. Granted, the main differences are between Ore and Watashi, but you also have 'Future Sephiroth", the Sephiroth Clones, The Sephiroth Illusions, etc, etc. One more incarnation of Sephiroth is stands to make things even messier. They probably have enough Sephiroth's to occupy an entire village already. You'd probably have to assign numbers to them just to keep track of them all. Especially in Remake.


Marco (Sephiroth Clone# 49):
Though not from Crisis Core (as far as we know), I have him categorized different from Sephiroth because I don't think he is an ordinary Sephiroth clone. Some of this comes from researching the book "Sepher Sephiroth" and the number 49, and from the events in Chapters 16 and 17. My theory is that this Sephiroth is connected to the entity that is 'Future Sephiroth' of whom I don't believe to actually be Sephiroth. He may be a Sephiroth from a different timeline, or 'Jenova' taking Sephiroth's form, or a different entity entirely. It is hard to say, but I think the clues this entity being the 'true villain' are in Aerith's first vision in "Picturing the Past" and "Gilligan" from Nanaki's story in "On the Way to a Smile" as Vincent describes him as an entity from the distant future. My theory is that this is the same entity referred to as 'Future Sephiroth" and Marco is connected to this entity and this entity is in part (or wholly) responsible for disruptions to the timeline in Remake.
All of that said, my theory on what Jenova actually is in relation to Sephiroth is too complex for the purposes of this post. Let's move on.


Maro Cont'd - A few key observations:
The most obvious is how the Whispers react to Marco versus Sephiroth Clone#2. More specifically when Marco kills Barrett and Transforms into Jenova Dreamweaver. Both times, the Whispers attempt to stop him. On the other hand, the whispers allow Clone #2 to carry on business as usual as they stop Cloud from interfering with his progress. The reasons for this is simply because the former is attempting to change history while the latter is not. This should tell you who is part of the original timeline. Which brings me to the final observations.


Hints About Macro in the Music:
After Jenova Dreamweaver was defeated, Marco's body disappears into dust as Jenova's corpse reappears. When Sephiroth Clone #2 picks up Jenova, we hear One Winged Angel played in a minor third, then a major third. This same arrangement (different key) as OWA transitions to Midgar: City of Mako theme as Aerith becomes frightened in the alleyway. It is interesing how they used that exact part of the song.

- Sephiroth Clone #2 arrives after Marco's Death as Jenova Dreamweaver.

-Midgar City of Mako Transitions From OWA - The key is different, but the intervals are the same.

- FFVII Remake Intergrade Intro - The other variation of "One Winged Angel"?
- FFVII Remake Intro for reference.

Fan theories aside. I have to say that the strongest indicator of all that something will change with Sephiroth is the change to the Lyrics of his song. That is a very central tenet to his character, so there is some implied meaning in this. As to how Sephiroth may change is what this is about. While there are other possibilities regarding that, I happen to feel that this is the strongest one. I am aware that many will disagree with me and that is fine. This is just what I see when I step back and look at the big picture of everything that happened in Chapter 16. 17 and 18. That said, I have entertained possibilities that Sephiroth may not be our Cetra/SOLDIER Hybrid. Which actually would be the case depending on how you look at the last and most mysterious possibility.


Genesis Returns as a Cetra/SOLDIER hybrid:
Love him or hate him, I think we have more than enough hints that our dumb-apple gobbling, LOVELESS reading villain will make a return in Rebirth. Returing as a different form is also not impossible due to being in Deepground among other things. Such as the need to cure his cell degradation which requires S type cells. Perhaps then he would become the S-G SOLDIER/Hybrid that Hojo also mentioned. That said, I Think that a Cetra/SOLDIER Hybrid of any variety will either produce a lovecraftian abomination or an ultra powerful main villain. That said, I don't see Genesis becoming either of these in Rebirth.


Ifalna's cells used with Jenova Cells to Produce Sephiroth/SOLDIER.
I'm not sure where to place this one as this one is as is messy. These points are necessary though as we get closer to the final theory. I am bringing this one up is that the book in Aerith's room would have been there for at least 17 years as Aerith said that it was just as she had left it. Which seems to be the case when judging by appearances. That said, Ifalna cells are a possibility. The only thing is that why didn't Hojo when Iflana was alive? Which is a good question. But keep in mind that the Jenova was beleived to be the Cetra and that Shinra started the SOLDIER program under the impression that they would have Cetran DNA.
The other thing here is that we know there are changes in Remake's timeline during Iflana and Aerith's time at Shinra HQ as detailed in "PIcturing the Past". Which leads me to my next question. Why did he start producing Sephrioth Clones 10 years prior to Sephiroth's death in Remake's timeline? My best guess is that it has something to do the little girl whose touch provides people with 'clairvoyance' of sorts. The story "Picturing the Past" ties Aerith's vison to the drawings and the Sephiroth Clones in Remake. Which in essence makes this the earliest known deviation to the timeline. While changes likely go back further, these events mark the first known changes to the timeline from a canonical standpoint. While we don't know to what extent these changes affected the flow of events in Remake. One thing I can think of is that the casualties sustained by the Special Survey Units would have resulted in a reduced number of infantrymen. Which is something we see in Remake's version of Zack's last stand along with Terrier Stamp.
In regards to why Hojo didn't use Ifalna's cells to make a hybrid. I don't know. All I am saying is that "Picturing the Past" has a significant connection to Sephiroth through the Sephiroth Clones. Though I have doubts on this one simply because Hojo only mentions Aerith beung used for his Hybrid Expirment. What makes me wonder if further changes to this timeline could result in Ifalna's cells being used the the SOLDIER program in conjunction with Jenova. Which brings me to my next point.


SOLDIER, Sephiroth and Aerith
Earlier drafts of FF7 cast Sephiroth and Aerith as siblings, hence the similar bangs in OG. And the precursor to SOLDIER was known as the Thaumaturge. The Thaumaturgy is basically sorcery (this is when Edea was still a FFVII character) and it was described as those who had their 'Jenova element' awakened within them. Some people had this ability naturally while others needed to be 'enhanced'. This relates to the earlier idea that Jenova was a part of the brain which I take to mean that everyone had "Jenova" in them and I think the part of the brain is a reference to the 'pineal gland'. Some occults believe the pineal gland to be the 'third eye' and a the source of 'magickal power'. Some illustrations of the pineal gland depict is as a red spheroidal object which is similar to the red object seen embedded inside Jenova Dreamweaver's skull. The actual pineal gland doesn't look like that, but what is interesting is that the Jenova Dreamweaver boss fight apparently takes place inside a brain. Make of that what you will.

That said, this post is going to go into some tangents which are necessary to understand where I am coming from in the final theory.

Early FFVII Drafts:
Regarding the Thaumaturge, Aerith was considered one who had her abilities naturally and the original purpose of the Turks was to seek the Thaumaturge. This is most likely where Aerith's joke about being a SOLDIER candidate comes from as Cloud explains the purpose of the Turks is to seek SOLDIER candidates. That comment could be homage to earlier versions of the script that won't have an effect on future events such as Barrett being killed. Or maybe not. It's hard to say as some changes are just little tributes to early versions of FFVII while others seem to be reversions of the story back to an original draft. The point here is that changing SOLDIER to have both Jenova and Ifalna's cells would effectively be like having different 'breeds' of SOLDIER if you will. It would also bring Remake a little close to the original drafts in an adaptive sense.

Another important thing to consider here is that many of these elements are tied to Edea origins as a FFVII Character. When she was written out of the story, so did many of the elements associated with her character. These elements would eventually become FFVIII. Which just so happens to involve a future deity changing the past and time compression into a singularity. The purpose of that was to become god in the form of a new universe.

Like I said, make of that what you will. For that matter, I don't think they're merging FF8 with FF7. I beleive the reason for these similarities is because these ideas were part of FF7 before they became part of FF8. Aside from Neo Midgar and time barriers protecting large cities, there just so happens to be another game involving time travel, sorcery and planet consuming aliens that shared development with FF7 during it's early days as an SNES title. Development on SNES FF7 was halted so they could help with Chrono Trigger. When the devs returned to FF7, they came back with a set of entirely new ideas that were most likely inspired from their work on Chrono Trigger. Thus, SNES FF7 evolved into what would become Xenogears (IIRC) as FF7 was mostly revamped as development as a PS1 title began.

One thing regarding similarities between FF7 and FF8 is that Remake is what makes the similarities most apparent. Remove FF7R from the equation, those similarities exist only beneath the surface. And considering that there is no precedence for time travel in FF7 lore in regards to how that works. Once could say that FF8 serves as the next best thing despite only being canon to FF8.



Going back to Sephiroth and How this could be possible:
I am aware this theory will be deemed far fetched by some, but looking at the big picture, I am seeing too many indications to write these off. Hybrid theories aside, there is just alot of strong evidence that something is going to change with him. As to what that change could be, I think Hojo's various mentions of a hybrid and wanting to breed Aerith along with the Stamp Breeder Book being in her room which marks the final appearance of stamp as that breed hold are by far the strongest clues we have.
All of that said, we're NOT gonna see a pregnant Aerith. For that matter, the main thing is that in order for this to work is that would need to have already happened in the new timeline (hence Iflana) unless this creation is done through a Sephiroth clone is some way using genetic samples collected by Hojo. Which all things considered is the most likely way for it to be implemented.


Enter The Drum:
First thing to point out is that Cloud and Co are only allowed to leave the drum on Hojo's terms. The party is released when Hojo "has all the data he needs" which is most likely battle data which in part is how Hojo creates his monsters. This apparently is also how Chadley creates Materia. No clue how that works, but that's how it works as nonsensical as it sounds. Side note, one thing that is sus in regard to Chadley is how Hojo's battle simulator is very close in terms of shape and proximity to the entrance to the drum. As in a little too close for comfort considering that Cloud hallucinates Jenova being inside the elevator shaft that we walk inside of to enter the drum. Speaking of hallucinations, its funny that Hojo mentions that and we end up fighting a boss that is known to cause them according to their description. Funnier yet is that Jenova Dreamweaver turned out to be Marco. So I guess that is their 'face to face' per Hojo's desire.
That said, there is ALOT strange things that begin happening after the drum which is a huge topic in of itself. Jenova Dreamweaver also marks the major turning point for the remake. Most changes prior to this are insignificant in terms of the entire story. Nearly all changes after this are VERY significant in terms of the story.
Just the fact that it is taking inside a brain should be enough to tell us something is off.

While I won't claim to know everything that happened in Chapter 17, I can say with confidence that these are the events which kicked off Rebirth and whatever is to change regarding Sephiroth and Hojo's hybrid has something to do with what went on in that chapter. Maybe I'll cover all of those details in another post.


We're getting closer.....

There are also a ton of esoteric references here. The most obvious one being the gold melting down the columns and Shinra's giant gold statue which is a reference to the golden calf as a false god which is what ShinRa is. The "Ra" is a reference to the Egyptian Sun god. In the museum, a young Shinra is shown working on a sun lamp. In Chapter 5 Tifa recites his speech about the sun lamps as they are shutting them off to proceed to Reactor 5. In that chapter Barrett says "You gotta put out a sun just to open a gate". Interesting line considering Rufus's dog's name was changed from darknation to darkstar. Darkstar is another term for "Solar Eclipse" which often represents death of an old god and the coming of a new one. Makes sense considering why Rufus is there. But maybe there is something deeper.

My Final Theory on this topic:

Going back to the FF8 References with Time Comression and Singularities. The more detailed description of that is to compress time so that the entire universe can exist within Ultimecia's coniousness which would allow her to become a god by becoming literally everything. Being inside a brain, and then seeing the silhouette in the red nebula is certainly something to think about. That said, the devs haven't confirmed this to be Jenova, but I'm really not seeing what else it could be. I can't imagine something looking like Jenova by coincidence. That is unless it is something with strong ties to Jenova like Heretic Hojo (hmmm 'heretic'....interesting)

If we're to take this as the planet (or 'this' planet) being reborn through Jenova in some way, then that would mean the inhabitants are all 'hybrids' through the planet which effectively makes nobody hybrid because they are born of 'this' planet. I say 'this' planet in reference to one of the translations of Rebirth's trailer as I'm not sure what to make of that yet. I've been wondering what to make of Jenova as the Universe of Creation for a very long time. As I am writing this post, thinking about Stamp, the butterfly effect, the reference to 'this' planet in Rebirth's trailer, and then looking at this picture.....

Aerith pretty much represents the planet. She is literally the Sephiroth of the planet as the word Sephiroth comes from the word Sephira which is the Hebrew word for expression. Aerith being the last Cetra is an expression of the Planet's will as just Sephiroth is an expression of Jenova's will. Another way to interpret the events of Chapter 17 is that the planet was reborn as a hybrid and Jenova is just as much a part of it as the Cetra. This single move would bring things closer to those original drafts in so many ways it's ridiculous. One of the key tenets of these earier drafts is that Jenova was an element that existed within everyone. How people reacted to having that awakened within them varied just as we see with the Jenova cells.
The compilation has even pushed us close to this through geostigma. And on that topic, why is all of the water black in Chapter 2? Fun fact on this. In Chapter 3, there is an NPC in sector 7 commenting on the black water as she washes clothes in it. She says the black water takes all the stains out 'like magic' as she stands over a cauldron shaped tub. Maybe that is why they need water filters so they don't ingest too much Jenova Juice and become like Marco.

That said, all I've seen are bits and pieces of FFVII earlier drafts as I doubt it exists in complete form anywhere outside of Square Enix HQ. My take on that as a whole is thatyou can look at FFVII is a classic Final Fantasy game underneath a cyberpunk aesthetic. This is even reflected in the lore itself as humanity has very recently discovered technology. Take away Mako reactors and it suddenly starts to look like that. Seeing it like that, you can see how the devs would 'change' the story without changing the crux of the story. The same elements are still present at their core, they are just presented differently and perhaps something closer to what the original vision of the story in the sense that the original vision will have to be 'adapted' to existing FFVII lore.


Final Thoughts:
I'm really torn on the "Jenovaverse" idea as I am still processing it. The thing is we can't ignore what the Universe of Creation looks like. And the fact that FF7R used the time travel elements from FF8 (which is sorta like a spinoff of FF7). Then and the purpose of the singularity in its story in conjunction with what we're seeing right here. I have to say this may be the most plausible one. But as grandiose as it may sound, it would actually be the opposite as changes in a Jenova-Gaia would mostly exist in the background. Superficially everything would look the same, but with slightly different back stories. The biggest change would of course be with SOLDIER and Sephiroth which is already being indicated to us.
But even then, this technically means no Hybrids due to everyone being of the planet now. Going back to the games intro theme. How it seamlessly transtions from Sephiroth's theme going from minor 3rd to major 3rd into the City of Mako theme really makes me wonder. Especially seeing as they reprised that right after we kill Jenova Dreaweaver.

Speaking of that......

Since we're talking about the "Edge of Creation", "Rebirth", "Singularities", and "Supernovas", then why not talk about the "Big Bang" that Jenova Dreamweaver greets us with.

Referring back to FF8, it's description of becoming a god using the singularity so that it can fit within one's consciousness. Otherwise known as 'pantheism'. This is the belief that everyone and everything is god and that we all exist within it's consciousness. And that consciousness reveals itself to us as light. As in "Let there be light". I don't know if FF7 has pantheism. Judging by the final entry of LOVELESS, I would say that it does, although I suspect this to be more in a planetary sense. Not just due to the game's lore, but due to the hermetic philosophy associated with it. Hermeticism has it's origins in the Greek Hellenistic era and thus borrows heavily on Greek Mythology and Religion and possibly "Planetology".


Planetology is a lesser used term for Astrology. Hermeticism to this day references the Greek model of the Solar system which what Safer Sephiroth shows us when he casts Supernova. Those zig zaggy lines you see on on the menu screen resemble natal charts which are drawn according to this model. Hermetic philosophy also beleives in the concept of 'Aeons'. If you've ever heard say we're in the "Age of Aquarius", they are referencing an Aeon. General astrology refers to the Zodiac gods for the Aeons while Hermeticm references a mix between Greek and Egyptian Gods.

An Aeon is part of a great cycle that lasts about 2,000 years. And with each new Aeon comes a new god to rule over through it's influence. For example, the age of Aquarius is said to have influenced the age of technology (way back in the 60s). In FFVII lore, they have a calendar system that repeats every 2000 years and uses a greek letter to indicate the era. (FWIW, the calendar system in FFVII is not a retcon. It is shown in the 4th disc of the international edition released in November of 1997).

The year 2000 was the 'Mu' era, and the year 0001 is the 'Nu' era. The name Jenova is combination of "Jehovah" (God), and the latin word for "New" which is "Nova". Therefore, Jenova literally means "New God" as the events of FFVII begin on the first day of the 49th week of year 0007 in the "Nu" Era.

Make of that what you will...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553981503230554112

That logo was on a square website btw lol.