Aerith's death: post Compilation.

[ForceStealer]

Screen time is one thing. But it's still generally accepted that Aerith was the reason for the Lifestream bursting forth and stopping Meteor. So despite her quick, brutal, and pointless death she and she alone is responsible for saving the world. I'd say that counts as, as Mako put it, having your foot in the door for animu goddess-hood.

 

[Shademp]

Funny thing is that, before reading "Maiden Who Travels the Planet", the idea had not even crossed my mind that Aerith was responsible for summoning the lifestream.

Yes, it is mentioned in her 10th Anniversary Ultimania character profile and is therefore canon, but for years when watching the ending I did not even reflect on what the appearance of her face at the end actually meant.
Was I alone in this?

 

[Masamune]

Screen time is one thing. But it's still generally accepted that Aerith was the reason for the Lifestream bursting forth and stopping Meteor. So despite her quick, brutal, and pointless death she and she alone is responsible for saving the world. I'd say that counts as, as Mako put it, having your foot in the door for animu goddess-hood.

No, you're missing the point and working backwards. Aerith rallying the Lifestream is undoubtedly greater than her powers in AC, so how come Aerith never visits Cloud (et al) in the OG? Because they wanted to give consequence to her death instead of making her some Jedi ghost to visit Cloud when he needs advice. The Compilation 'finishing the job' makes no sense, because there was never a job (as such) to finish. It was Aerith's parting gift to her friends, and the planet itself, not the beginning of godhood.

Yes, it is mentioned in her 10th Anniversary Ultimania character profile and is therefore canon, but for years when watching the ending I did not even reflect on what the appearance of her face at the end actually meant.
Was I alone in this?

Well, Marlene senses her presences moments before the Lifestream bursts into action, so it's heavily implied that Aerith was behind it.

 

[Shademp]

Well, Marlene senses her presences moments before the Lifestream bursts into action, so it's heavily implied that Aerith was behind it.

I never thought of it that way. Must be because she senses "the flower girl" before Holy has even appeared, so connecting the dots with the emergence of the Lifestream never occurred to me. Even if I had, I probably would have thought of it as "Aeris riding the lifestream", and that the Lifestream stopped the Meteor because the planet decided so.

Not trying to spur an argument, just sharing how I have perceived the ending. Were it not for the official material, I would be very conflicted as to whether it was Aerith or the Planet that was the driving force.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a world apart from hopping in and out of the Lifestream at whim and having her own telephone network. Shit's just ridiculous and cheapens her symbolic death.

I know it is, my point though is that they took an implied, subtlety from the OG and upped it to 11.

I was bringing that up in regards to everyone saying that Aerith was never a metaphysical force in FFVII and that her death was final, with her never ever playing a role in the story again, as in real life.

That's not completely true. FFVII is still a fantasy story, and while she did die and was pretty much gone for 95% of the whole game after that. Her spirit played one last role in the story, saving the planet. It was just a correction I feel had to be made.

Anyways it really doesn't matter, because again. The Compilation took that subtlety and magnified it to something it wasn't in the original game. I personally don't really care. Again, the original game is never going to be cheapened because it's a stand alone game in the FF series. It's story is done. No matter what stupid shit I see in Dirge of Cerberus, I'm not going to suddenly look towards my copy of FFVII, groan in dread, and think "WELP, THE GAME IS DESTROYED NOW! WOE TO THE GREATEST GAME OF 1997!"

Does the Compilation cheapen some of the storyline quality of FFVII? Absolutely. Does that make it any less enjoyable of a game series and make me not enjoy seeing Aerith again in HD CGI, Cloud do Omnislash Version 6, and reliving the same childhood awesome moments of FFVII? Hell no. I'm gonna enjoy seeing Cloud and Sephiroth duke it out, and using Aerith as my assist in Duodecim, regardless of if she's dead or not.

Honestly I just don't give a shit. FFVII isn't going to suddenly burst into flames because Crisis Core's in my PSP and I enjoyed Zack and his story. The minute they make a remake though and suddenly ruin it is when I'll worry, and even then. I'll just not buy it and most people will still remember the OG more anyways.

 

[Max Payne]

I always took that scene at the end of FF7 as not being literal. Had no reason to believe Aerith's hand actually reached down from on high out of fucking nowhere.

You fucking idiot.

 

[Max Payne]

Btw it's good to know Mako has gone back to being a pathetic SE apologist.

It smells of nostalgia and warms my soul.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess Marlene's just out of her mind then, and the image of Aerith over the Lifestream, insinuating her control, was just for grins.

When FFVII first came out, the consensus and explanation behind the Lifestream suddenly rising up to stop Meteor had been Aerith. It's not some new addition the Compilation added.

 

[Max Payne]

I guess Marlene's just out of her mind then, and the image of Aerith over the Lifestream, insinuating her control, was just for grins.

So you literally thought Aerith popped up out of nowhere in front of Cloud to lift him up, despite no one else seeing this? Wow.

When FFVII first came out, the consensus and explanation behind the Lifestream suddenly rising up to stop Meteor had been Aerith. It's not some new addition the Compilation added.

I was all fun guesswork, and supposition. Now it's just stupid.

The fact of the matter is it was subtly implied in the original game, now it's a full on joke and everyone knows it despite what excuses they make up.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud just fucking met with Sephiroth in the Lifestream to do battle with him. How is it suddenly so hard to believe Aerith briefly reached out to him and then he returned back to reality?

That's just straight up selective interpretation and bias.

And I'm sure there was more than just guesswork when most of what described that scene, attributes it to Aerith. Hell, even the Bradygames strategy guide that was published back in the day, said it was her. I'm sure the old Dismantled book even attributes it to her and that was before there was a Compilation of FFVII.

 

[Max Payne]

Cloud just fucking met with Sephiroth in the Lifestream to do battle with him. How is it suddenly so hard to believe Aerith briefly reached out to him and then he returned back to reality?

Sephiroth hadn't been fucking dead for days, he had a significant presence in the crater(AND INSIDE CLOUD, LITERALLY THANKS TO JENOVA CELLS) and overwhelming power.

You're comparing that to a 3 second delusion that only Cloud had for some reason to that? The fuck. Think of context and story telling for fuck sake. It made more sense to think that scene was more figurative and symbolic, than literal.

Also, I didn't say it was hard to believe. Fucking derp.

That's just straight up selective interpretation and bias.

Fucking derp. The shit you say sometimes.

And I'm sure there was more than just guesswork when most of what described that scene, attributes it to Aerith. Hell, even the Bradygames strategy guide that was published back in the day, said it was her. I'm sure the old Dismantled book even attributes it to her and that was before there was a Compilation of FFVII.

Ok then nerd.

It was guesswork for those of us who didn't obsess over it and hunt down every piece of obscure material back in the day.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth hadn't been fucking dead for days, he had a significant presence in the crater(AND INSIDE CLOUD, LITERALLY THANKS TO JENOVA CELLS) and overwhelming power.

You're comparing that to a 3 second delusion that only Cloud had for some reason to that? The fuck. Think of context and story telling for fuck sake. It made more sense to think that scene was more figurative and symbolic, than literal.

Also, I didn't say it was hard to believe. Fucking derp.

The whole point is seeing people after death and how believable it is. Aerith had been dead for days but she's also not fully human. She's a Cetra. And considering Cloud was in the Lifestream, how is it hard to believe he'd see someone else there who was dead?

Ok then nerd.

It was guesswork for those of us who didn't obsess over it and hunt down every piece of obscure material back in the day.

I'll wear that title proudly.

 

[Max Payne]

The whole point is seeing people after death and how believable it is.

No, the point I'm concerned with is subtly vs overblown nonsense.

Aerith had been dead for days but she's also not fully human. She's a Cetra.

So? No other Cetra are hanging around in the lifestream playing god, what makes Aerith so special?

And considering Cloud was in the Lifestream, how is it hard to believe he'd see someone else there who was dead?

The moment we're discussing in particular, it looks like Cloud is no longer in the lifestream as seconds later he notices the ground is collasping underneath him and that he is in fact not in fairy land.

That said if he was actually seeing the dead person in question, why would he only see a hand? That's kinda retarded.

Maybe it's meant to represent her trying to reach out to him with her feelings, THAT makes more sense to me than an apparition only Cloud can see suddenly appearing in front of him.

It'd explain why only HE could see it.

I'll wear that title proudly.

I'm sure it earns you many favors.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, the point I'm concerned with is subtly vs overblown nonsense.


So? No other Cetra are hanging around in the lifestream playing god, what makes Aerith so special?

But we had Cetra in the Forgotten Temple who were basically willing themselves into existence post death to continuously guard it. So again, fantasy.

I already said that the Compilation took a subtle reference to Aerith working from beyond death and turned it up to 11. So I'm not sure what you're bitching about.

The moment we're discussing in particular, it looks like Cloud is no longer in the lifestream as seconds later he notices the ground is collasping underneath him and that he is in fact not in fairy land.

His mind/spirit was though. He may have seen Aerith but then he is instantly back in the world of the living and sees Tifa. That's what's going on.

That said if he was actually seeing the dead person in question, why would he only see a hand? That's kinda retarded.

Because by the time he would've fully seen her out of the light, he was already taken back to life and thus sees Tifa instead. Which kinda goes into the whole, moving on with life, and starting to live his life with Tifa and letting go.

Maybe it's meant to represent her trying to reach out to him with her feelings, THAT makes more sense to me than an apparition only Cloud can see suddenly appearing in front of him.

It'd explain why only HE could see it.

Well the reason why only he could see it was because he was in the lifestream. That's pretty obvious.

 

[ForceStealer]

But we had Cetra in the Forgotten Temple who were basically willing themselves into existence post death to continuously guard it.

This, especially. It's not like this sort of thing is unprecedented in FF7's world.

 

[Max Payne]

But we had Cetra in the Forgotten Temple who were basically willing themselves into existence post death to continuously guard it.

I always figured never really joined with the lifestream so they could remain there and protect the temple. Like Sephiroth resisted it, or like the unsent in FFX, or those GI tribe faggots.
I don't remember all of it, but where in the game exactly is it stated they were literally manifesting themselves from within the lifestream( I assume this what you meant by "willing themselves into existence" otherwise it makes no sense at all)?

Hell the only Cetra I remember actually seeing are the blue guys(I assume they were Cetra). Aerith says they've been away from the planet for so long they lost the ability to talk, but where is it stated they rejoined the planet after death to begin with?
Either way they are there, but they're clearly not manifesting from within the lifestream because they're no longer connected to it, which is why they lost their ability to speak, or so aerith says.

If they could just, pop up out of the lifestream at will, why would they allow Sephiroth and Jenova to come as far as they did to destroying the planet? Why didn't they help Cloud and co.? Sense, it makes none(to me anyway).

I remember Aerith speaking to the dead Cetra or the "knowledge"(as she put it) of the cetra floating around through that pool thing though.

Where are the Cetra manipulating the lifestream like god tier pros, and contacting people all over the world and popping into people's minds?

Herp she's a cetra so she can do all of this bullshit is extremely convenient.

So again, fantasy

Ah the eternal excuse for whatever bullshit that can happen in fiction. That shit never helps any stance in a discussion, it only hurts it.

I already said that the Compilation took a subtle reference to Aerith working from beyond death and turned it up to 11. So I'm not sure what you're bitching about.

I guess you can't read now. Way to live up to stereotypes bitch. The issue was you said that bullshit like it excuses the crap we see in the compilation.
It doesn't.
Just because we got a subtle hint of her working from the lifestream in the original game doesn't mean the shit she did in AC was precedented at all. She full on fucking poltergeists in ACC, even fucking curing disease with magic water and invading people's minds, and speaking to them an shit.

His mind/spirit was though. He may have seen Aerith but then he is instantly back in the world of the living and sees Tifa. That's what's going on.

If he was literally in the lifestream he still shouldn't have just been seeing a goddamn hand.

Because by the time he would've fully seen her out of the light, he was already taken back to life and thus sees Tifa instead. Which kinda goes into the whole, moving on with life, and starting to live his life with Tifa and letting go.

Well that's an extremely convenient supposition given the circumstances. Taken back to life? Lol when did he die? Also, that metaphor doesn't work.

Cloud seeing a dead person's hand and never managing to grab it before he comes out of his psychosis is supposed to represent moving on? Nope.

If he's in the lifestream with Aerith, he shouldn't be seeing just her hand. It's retarded, he had no problem seeing Sephiroth in all his glory despite recently having his body obliterated but Aerith is just a hand enveloped in white light?

Bah.

Well the reason why only he could see it was because he was in the lifestream. That's pretty obvious.

All we see is his "spirit" or mind leave his body. Then we see the fight. Since when can spirits get ripped out of bodies and literally dragged into the lifestream? When he's "falling" through the tunnel which doesn't at all look like lifestream, we briefly see the white materia and what looks like loose strands of lifestream, then he falls back into the weird shit then see sefiros in the blackness.

We don't definitively see the lifestream until the end of the battle, and even then we don't see enough of it to assume that he literally was inside it. When he comes back to we see he's still on the rocks he was on when he flipped out, but he's descended further from Tifa, but he's not INSIDE the lifestream, the rocks he's standing on clearly are still whole until they begin to come apart.

That shit was as obvious as the color of my asshole outside my pants. You could assume he was fighting Sephiroth in the lifestream, or in his mind or whatever. There was NO clear conclusion to come to at the time.

 

[ForceStealer]

Just because we got a subtle hint of her working from the lifestream in the original game doesn't mean the shit she did in AC was precedented at all. She full on fucking poltergeists in ACC, even fucking curing disease with magic water and invading people's minds, and speaking to them an shit.

Healing water covering a limited area seems less instrusive than mobilizing the Lifestream the world over to physically block/neutralize Meteor. Furthermore, she didn't seem able to DIRECTLY interfere very much. She couldn't stop Sephiroth's sword from striking Cloud, for instance. Or even warn people of what was happening. The water was the most direct action, and judging by how it first appears, that water seems very strong connections to the Lifestream, which she does seem to have some influence over.
I always figured the image of her we get at the end of VII was what AVALANCHE saw when blinded by the flash, if that's true, she impinged on their minds then.
Furthermore, I was kidding before, but just how positive are we that Cloud is not creating those conversations? Indeed, if she can talk to him any time, why didn't she warn him of what Sephiroth was doing? No one else sees her, though Tifa apparently feels her presence at the end, and the only others who directly experience her are children, all who could do so in FF7. (Marlene, and presumably the kids in the church with her ghost.)
The phones...I admit, are tougher to explain. Although ghosts manipulating electronics isn't an unusual concept.

 

[Max Payne]

Healing water covering a limited area seems less instrusive than mobilizing the Lifestream the world over to physically block/neutralize Meteor

You say that like she did it alone, she didn't. She had the will of planet on her side too. Aerith was the catalyst, not the executor.

With the fucking water, it literally just materialized for no apparent reason other than Aerith's will. Same with the phone shit and the stuff Cloud was seeing.

Furthermore, she didn't seem able to DIRECTLY interfere very much.

Completely manifesting a magic healing water to save the infected isn't directly interfering much? Or speaking directly to Kadaj and Cloud? Even implying that she helped him survive after the explosion on the top of the shinra building? How about phoning everyone around edge to come to the fountain?

Furthermore, I was kidding before, but just how positive are we that Cloud is not creating those conversations? Indeed, if she can talk to him any time, why didn't she warn him of what Sephiroth was doing? No one else sees her, though Tifa apparently feels her presence at the end, and the only others who directly experience her are children, all who could do so in FF7. (Marlene, and presumably the kids in the church with her ghost.)

What reason do we have to assume Cloud is literally manifesting this visual and auditory phenomena on his own? If he was, I doubt he'd have been using the image of Aerith to so definitively console himself. I mean Cloud was convincing himself he was the one at fault the entire time after all.

 

[ForceStealer]

You say that like she did it alone, she didn't. She had the will of planet on her side too. Aerith was the catalyst, not the executor.

She may have had the will of the souls in the Lifestream, but the will of the Planet is arguable. Holy is the will of the planet. So that comes down to whether you think Holy was letting Meteor through, or wasn't strong enough to stop it, I always thought it was former.

Even implying that she helped him survive after the explosion on the top of the shinra building?

I was always surprised when people got the impression she literally just made him spring up there. While watching the movie I took that as a near-death experience while AVALANCHE took him to the water that clearly had restorative properties. Perhaps even casting Cure spells on the way.

I already said the phone thing is more difficult to justify except that ghost stories have the dead using electronics all the time. But I freely admit that's flimsy.

What reason do we have to assume Cloud is literally manifesting this visual and auditory phenomena on his own? If he was, I doubt he'd have been using the image of Aerith to so definitively console himself. I mean Cloud was convincing himself he was the one at fault the entire time after all.

Well there's no denying that people can feel her presence, so if Cloud can feel it and the general emotion it's conveying, I could see his mind frame it with a conversation. Let's face it, that would be far from the craziest thing his mind has cooked up for him.


For the record, I'm not trying to suggest that THIS IS WHAT NOJIMA INTENDED AS HE WROTE IT YOU HEATHENS...just something to think about I guess.

 

[Max Payne]

She may have had the will of the souls in the Lifestream, but the will of the Planet is arguable. Holy is the will of the planet. So that comes down to whether you think Holy was letting Meteor through, or wasn't strong enough to stop it, I always thought it was former.

The lifeforce of the planet is the same as the lifeforce of the people. It's not really that arguable imo. When you think of it that way, the collective will of the spirits of the planet is the same as the will of the planet itself. I don't think it was ever really stated that the planet has a sole consciousness of its own separate from the lifeforce that sustains it.

I make it sound like the planet is the geth, but maybe it's similar in a way.

I was always surprised when people got the impression she literally just made him spring up there. While watching the movie I took that as a near-death experience while AVALANCHE took him to the water that clearly had restorative properties. Perhaps even casting Cure spells on the way.

I always figured he literally got blown off of the top of the building into the water, where Aerith spoke to him through the water as she/it healed him. After all he was lying in the water alone. Everyone else was a good distance away from him.

I already said the phone thing is more difficult to justify except that ghost stories have the dead using electronics all the time. But I freely admit that's flimsy.

Of course, it's a popular trope in fiction. We're just discussing whether or not it's use was appropriate here.

Well there's no denying that people can feel her presence, so if Cloud can feel it and the general emotion it's conveying, I could see his mind frame it with a conversation. Let's face it, that would be far from the craziest thing his mind has cooked up for him.

I don't deny that people could feel her, it's the degree of its representation and the role it plays that I take issue with.

For the record, I'm not trying to suggest that THIS IS WHAT NOJIMA INTENDED AS HE WROTE IT YOU HEATHENS...just something to think about I guess.

I am, my word is law and I can read the minds of tiny japanese people in other continents.

 

[Terrafig]

Doesn't Kadaj see Aeris right before he dies? I prefer to think that it's all in Cloud's mind so that I can stomach Advent Children, but that scene gets in the way.

I guess you could argue that Cloud imagines that too, but it seems odd. Even if you say that Kadaj only sees her because he's dying, that suggests that she hasn't completely rejoined the Lifestream yet, and her influence is still felt. For what purpose? Obviously some grand scheme.

I tried to find the scene on Youtube, but the topic of Kadaj's death is saturated by pairing videos.

 

[ForceStealer]

The lifeforce of the planet is the same as the lifeforce of the people. It's not really that arguable imo. When you think of it that way, the collective will of the spirits of the planet is the same as the will of the planet itself. I don't think it was ever really stated that the planet has a sole consciousness of its own separate from the lifeforce that sustains it.

I make it sound like the planet is the geth, but maybe it's similar in a way.

So does that mean you feel Holy was just too late? Because otherwise its will apparently disagreed with the Lifestream.

@Kale
Well Aerith was obviously behind the rain, so Kadaj feeling her presence makes about as much sense as anything, lol. He also wasn't the most sane person in the world. He figured he was talking to Jenova anyway.
As for Aerith's continued presence, both the game and On the Way to Smile say that a strong enough will can stave off dissolution. And there is her Cetra-ness to consider. I know there aren't many other Cetra doing shit, but she's a main character for a reason, right?

Also, I get the impression she feels that she's done and can dissolve now. She saw to Cloud's closure, and clearly walks away at the end. I assume that to mean she would play no role in a hypothetical sequel.

 

[Max Payne]

I still prefer to think of the scene with the hand reaching out to Cloud is just his mind's way of interpreting her trying to contact him, not him literally seeing a damn hand reach out to him while he's floating in the lifestream.

So does that mean you feel Holy was just too late? Because otherwise its will apparently disagreed with the Lifestream

Either it was too late, or it wasn't strong enough alone to stop it, which is why the lifestream reinforced it's push.

 

[ForceStealer]

Ah, I thought Holy was allowing Meteor to destroy Midgar, at least. Since it was harmful to the Planet after all. And perhaps would allow it to do enough damage to wipe out humanity, but Aerith/The Lifestream had other ideas. Mostly I got this from Red's "opposite effect" line and, why would Meteor be any stronger than Holy when they were obviously diametrically opposed spells?

 

[Max Payne]

Ah, I thought Holy was allowing Meteor to destroy Midgar, at least. Since it was harmful to the Planet after all. And perhaps would allow it to do enough damage to wipe out humanity, but Aerith/The Lifestream had other ideas. Mostly I got this from Red's "opposite effect" line and, why would Meteor be any stronger than Holy when they were obviously diametrically opposed spells?

Sephiroth was the one propelling Meteor forth and weakening Holy with his power wasn't he? That would tip the scale in Meteor's favor.

Holy IS a spell summoned from the planet like any other magic isn't it?