An observation about Sephiroth and Zack.

[Roger]

That's irrelevant, dude. If anything, they're all hicks, Cloud was born in Nibelhiem, Zack in Gongaga, Genesis/Angeal in Banora, and from what can be considered, Sephiroth was probably born in Nibelhiem as well. When I say hick, I don't mean the EXACT GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION where they were born, but I mean a general atmosphere about them.

Zack was born in the middle of nowhere but he wasn't really a hick because he was very close to being a worldwide superstar before he was even twenty. Same thing for Genesis and Angeal (and they WERE worldwide superstars). Cloud was a hick because he was born a nobody and stayed that way.

At 16. When the others were 16 they were just as bad. (well, Zack was a new SOLDIER Second Class, but I don't Angeal and Genesis had even left Banora at that age), Sephiroth didn't consider Cloud a nobody perse. He took an interest in his feelings about coming home after a long time.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

At 16. When the others were 16 they were just as bad. (well, Zack was a new SOLDIER Second Class, but I don't Angeal and Genesis had even left Banora at that age),

The fact that he was beaten by a 16 year old nobody makes it even worse.

Sephiroth didn't consider Cloud a nobody perse.

Yeah he did.

He took an interest in his feelings about coming home after a long time.

A casual question doesn't really mean shit.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

He took an interest in his feelings about coming home after a long time.

I thought this was because he couldn't ever experience these feelings himself, that he was asking how Cloud felt. I also seem to remember that he didn't seem too interested in waiting for a reply.

 

[Roger]

Well Zack interrupted them. In the story as we saw it Sephiroth listened to Zack and Cloud talked, made attempt at conversation with Cloud, gave the other soldier guardduty so Cloud can visit family and friends and trusted him to guard their guide from the powerful monsters that had appeared there while they went about their business (even though Cloud would've been ****ed if anything actually happened, which they expanded on CC), Sephiroth treated Cloud ridiculously well. Until he stabbed him, then he started saying "Who are you" and "That's just like you" (stabbing someone in the back when they're infinitely more powerful).

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Sephiroth treated Cloud polite. That's about it. Unless you have no grasp of social interaction or no friends, you can't really say that Sephiroth and Cloud had any sort of developing friendship or anything. Sephiroth was just civil and polite, like he is to pretty much everyone else.

 

[Gale]

Asking someone about their hometown when you know that it's their hometown is just a pleasantry - not a sign of Sephiroth having any real interest in Cloud. Though it wasn't said as explicitly in Crisis Core, Sephiroth didn't even know who Cloud was when he stabbed him. Considering that the only other MP there died beforehand, it says a lot that Sephiroth still didn't remember the MP with whom he actually conversed.

Sephiroth: Aaarrrgh...... who... who are you?
Soldier (Cloud): Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back... I had so much respect for
you... I admired you...

Though in Crisis Core Sephiroth can't even vocalize a response, he
still doesn't indicate that he really knows Cloud, or cared at all
about him. Besides that, Cloud doesn't even flip out at Sephiroth about all the things he took from him and that he was his idol in Crisis Core, which is somewhat understandable because Zack is more the focus than Cloud. So I still think the original dialogue is relevant.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth treated Cloud polite. That's about it. Unless you have no grasp of social interaction or no friends, you can't really say that Sephiroth and Cloud had any sort of developing friendship or anything. Sephiroth was just civil and polite, like he is to pretty much everyone else.

Save Hojo. And Lazard and Zack, kind off. He wasn't quite so civil to Hollander. Kinda mocking with Angeal and Genesis too.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Save Hojo. And Lazard and Zack, kind off. He wasn't quite so civil to Hollander. Kinda mocking with Angeal and Genesis too.

Those interactions had circumstances behind them that prompted Sephiroth to have said reaction to them or what they were saying at the time. That doesn't elevate the interaction he had with Cloud.

 

[Gale]

He was mocking with Angeal and Genesis because when you're close friends with someone you can be a bit more sarcastic. His "Come and try." comment to Genesis is about on the same level as "Mission failed - this will go on your permanent record." to Zack. In the latter case it was a sign of him warming up to Zack. How he treated Cloud was just the way he'd treat anyone he didn't know - with common courtesy.

 

[Roger]

I just think they characterised him differently. CC Sephiroth was never portrayed as particularly polite by any means. And if Sephiroth is without expection, polite with strangers then that still contradictions the mindset that he thinks SOLDIERs are worthy and Shinra MP's are nobodies that he's portrayed as having here.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I just think they characterised him differently. CC Sephiroth was never portrayed as particularly polite by any means.

Particularly being polite? No. Capable of showing basic politeness? Yes.

And if Sephiroth is without expection, polite with strangers then that still contradictions the mindset that he thinks SOLDIERs are worthy and Shinra MP's are nobodies that he's portrayed as having here.

You're overblowing the example. You can think that someone is comparatively a nobody and still show basic civility to them. Nobody said that he thinks MPs are total pieces of shit that don't even deserve to be on the same mortal plane as him. We're saying that he thinks that MPs and others like them have no place standing toe to toe with him.

 

[Roger]

No, he wouldn't, I think. Nobody is satisfied with DYING. However I don't think he would be as obsessed with him. Most of the reason why Sephiroth is so obsessed with Cloud is their difference in rank and status.

Sure he woudn't be as obssesed with Zack.
I think it's all Seph's arrogance and insanity that got better of him. Trying to prove Cloud worthless and failing every time...

It's funny though how Seph had gone against ShinRa and still thinking in terms of it's hierarchy.

I'm sorry, but from what I can tell that is exactly the direction the conversation was going.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Wha?

 

[Gale]

Well that is our point. Cloud's status as an MP - essentially cannon-fodder for the Shinra army - means that, from Sephiroth's point of view, there should be no way for him to ever defeat a 1st Class SOLDIER in one-to-one combat. The fact that Cloud did is a serious blow to Sephiroth's pride and part of why he hates him. The fact that Sephiroth was civil to him beforehand has no consequence because, even if it was more than just a superficial pleasantry, it was before Cloud had hurt Sephiroth's pride. We're not saying he wouldn't have hated Zack if he had been the one to beat him, but the rank difference - one based on combat prowess - further salts the wound.

 

[Roger]

Well that is our point. Cloud's status as an MP - essentially cannon-fodder for the Shinra army - means that, from Sephiroth's point of view, there should be no way for him to ever defeat a 1st Class SOLDIER in one-to-one combat. The fact that Cloud did is a serious blow to Sephiroth's pride and part of why he hates him. The fact that Sephiroth was civil to him beforehand has no consequence because, even if it was more than just a superficial pleasantry, it was before Cloud had hurt Sephiroth's pride. We're not saying he wouldn't have hated Zack if he had been the one to beat him, but the rank difference - one based on combat prowess - further salts the wound.

Honestly, his back was turned not to mention Jenova was trying to take control of his mind. The Before Crisis part of the Ultimania says it made him feel humiliated... And that's it. If it's ever made any kind of point of by anyone elsewhere (aside from Cloud himself, who had his reasons) then I'd like to know. For Sephiroth the fact that he was puppet in Disc 1 has always been portrayed as infinitely more important to their relationship.

 

[OWA-2]

For Sephiroth the fact that he was puppet in Disc 1 has always been portrayed as infinitely more important to their relationship.

But only after Nibelheim. Gale is talking about the Nibelheim incident itself.

 

[Roger]

But only after Nibelheim. Gale is talking about the Nibelheim incident itself.

Oh, well does it really matter how he felt in the 2 minutes tops between being getting stabbed and getting tossed into the Lifestream?

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Doesn't it? If we really knew what he was thinking, it'd give more insight into Sephiroth's character and his relationship with Cloud (and possibly others).

 

[Roger]

Doesn't it? If we really knew what he was thinking, it'd give more insight into Sephiroth's character and his relationship with Cloud (and possibly others).

How? In one angry half-mindcontrolled instance he cared about rank, a little at that. Where does that get us.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Like I said, it gives more insight. No matter how angry you are, you're not going to react to rank unless deep down inside you somewhere you believed it was important, right? And I don't know if he was really "half-mindcontrolled" at that point, do you?

 

[Roger]

Like I said, it gives more insight. No matter how angry you are, you're not going to react to rank unless deep down inside you somewhere you believed it was important, right? And I don't know if he was really "half-mindcontrolled" at that point, do you?

The headaches he gets as soon as he starts to get a little bit closer to the truth (to say nothing of going batsh*t insane afterwards) warrant speculation.

 

[Loxetta]

I think you guys need to realize that pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth and insane-Sephiroth are two rather different people. Sane!Seph may have respected Zack as a near-equal, but insane!Seph didn't.

If Zack had defeated him, I think Seph's disposition about it would be largely the same as it was regarding Cloud. Seph had already classified humans as worms by the time Zack attacked him. The knowledge that Zack was SOLDIER probably wouldn't have held any weight for him, aside from knowing he had to swing his sword a little faster.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Eh. I disagree. It's not like Sephiroth in Nibelhiem was at the same level of obsession and insanity as he was afterwards.

If Zack had defeated him, I think Seph's disposition about it would be largely the same as it was regarding Cloud.

The problem with this is that this line of thinking takes away from Sephiroth and Cloud's dynamic.

 

[Gale]

Which is why Cloud's rank and mental disposition (he's insecure and until the end of FF7 somewhat weak-willed) plays so much of a factor in that very dynamic, which is what we're trying to stress.

 

[Loxetta]

Eh. I disagree. It's not like Sephiroth in Nibelhiem was at the same level of obsession and insanity as he was afterwards.

No, Nibelhiem-Sephiroth is a far cry from Sephiroth in FF7 proper, but he also acts very little like himself in CC/BC up until that point. He's a fairly nice guy, though obviously aloof. He knows he's different from normal people and even other SOLDIERs, but he still goes about his business like he's any other person on the planet and just tries to not think about it. Compare this to Sephiroth in the reactor -- he's quite the arrogant prick, to put it simply. There's talk about traitors and Ancients and taking over the planet with his mother because he's her chosen one. By this point, even though the crazy-seeds only just sprouted, he's already put himself on a pedastal above everyone else. The rest of the humans can go pick shit with the chickens. This is an attitude that pre-reactor Seph did not carry.

The problem with this is that this line of thinking takes away from Sephiroth and Cloud's dynamic.

Which is why Cloud's rank and mental disposition (he's insecure and until the end of FF7 somewhat weak-willed) plays so much of a factor in that very dynamic, which is what we're trying to stress.

I wasn't meaning FF7 or the compilation as a whole, I was more referring to the Reactor Incident by itself. As I said above, Sephiroth (in the reactor incident) thinks he's above the normal human race. This would have made a defeat by any human, SOLDIER or trooper, to be disgraceful, even if with a slightly different severity, because they're all worthless traitors.

Also, if Zack defeated Seph in the reactor, Sephiroth would still have no clue that Cloud even existed, because Cloud only stepped in because Zack failed. There would be no dynamic for Cloud and Sephiroth to even have. Sephiroth would have turned his anger towards Zack because Zack was the one that killed him.