Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
Of course, but that would be a different kind of anger.
An observation about Sephiroth and Zack.
- Thread starter Cat Rage Room
- Start date
Of course, but that would be a different kind of anger.
Loxetta
Pro Adventurer
The humiliation element would still be present, I believe. Even if it would not be at the same level in Zack's case as it was in Cloud's case. But I agree, there would be much more important and complex issues in a Zack-defeat than in the canon one.
Along a similar vein
If this had played out, and Zack had lived to be part of FF7, would Sephiroth have considered Zack a real threat to his plan? Zack didn't respond to the clone process, after all.
Along a similar vein
If this had played out, and Zack had lived to be part of FF7, would Sephiroth have considered Zack a real threat to his plan? Zack didn't respond to the clone process, after all.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
How? He never mentions the incident. Even when he's directly sending images of the incident it was, and I quote, "To bring you back to the you that gave me the Black Materia." Cloud is liable to mindcontrol by Sephiroth because the Jenova inside him, thus Sephiroth considers him a puppet but to keep him from becoming to strongwilled Sephiroth needs to pound on his weaknesses, among which his failure to become SOLDIER (which was also proof that he was weakminded). That's their dynamic.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
You completely and totally misunderstood what I said, and no offense, you have been doing so for a lot of the topic.
If you assume that Sephiroth would be batshit crazy obsessed with anyone who beat him, that takes away from the uniqueness that Sephiroth has with a person like Cloud.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Fine, obviously I can't convince you otherwise.
But I'm not saying that it can be just anyone, Sephiroth was stabbed, lifted up and tossed into the Lifestream by someone who five years later he could play as a puppet because he's actually weakminded. It has never been about what ranks the two held in the Shinra military in the past for Sephiroth. Nor do I see how that would make them unique. I could just as easily say that thinking that any Shinra grunt would have the same relationship with Sephiroth would make it less unique too.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
Why doesn't it?
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Why would it? I just don't see the evidence for it. It's a logical train of thought that for someone of Sephiroths status being killed by a grunt would be humiliating to say the least but if anything Sephiroth has been conciously avoiding the issue. Even when we are actually given insight into his thought that's not what he thinks off when he thinks Cloud. If it does turn out to be true that that's what's stuck up Sephiroths ass this whole time then fine but up until now, it's not a factor in their dynamic...
From Sephiroth's side, I mean, Cloud himself is another story. I suppose i didn't make that clear.
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
Sorry to jump in with a new question, but after reading the first post and watching the Seph/Zack scene in Junon, I just picked up on something that I never noticed before. Sephiroth says he was on his way to Modeoheim but then heard that Zack was there in Junon. Does this mean that Sephiroth would not have stopped in Junon and gotten involved in that situation if Zack had not been there?
Essentially, it seems that Sephiroth only stopped there to tell Zack that there were copies in the slums and to also give him permission to go there, which to me says that Seph must have had some tiny inkling of an idea that Zack had a girlfriend who could be in danger. That says a lot. It's like, he was going above and beyond to actually be a friend to Zack.
Anyone else feel that way?
Essentially, it seems that Sephiroth only stopped there to tell Zack that there were copies in the slums and to also give him permission to go there, which to me says that Seph must have had some tiny inkling of an idea that Zack had a girlfriend who could be in danger. That says a lot. It's like, he was going above and beyond to actually be a friend to Zack.
Anyone else feel that way?
Neutron Ronnie
From The Front of Armament
- AKA
- Powerslave
Actually I thought Sephi-Rot definitely knew about Aerith, or at least the existence of someone special Zack had in the slums. 
I also thought that if he'd wanted to inform Zack of the trouble in the slums a simple phone call would have sufficed. I guess he really wanted to see how Zack was handling the situation, or something?
"Speculation" is hardly enough to discard my point.
I also thought that if he'd wanted to inform Zack of the trouble in the slums a simple phone call would have sufficed. I guess he really wanted to see how Zack was handling the situation, or something?
"Speculation" is hardly enough to discard my point.
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Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
I don't think he only stopped at Junon for Zack. I dunno where exactly he came from but if there, for instance, was bad weather up north then he'd probably need one of the Gelinka aircrafts to get to Modeoheim. But yeah, he obviously makes an effort to stay on top of most of what happens in his friends personal life.
And I was making an understatement Neutron Ronnie.
And I was making an understatement Neutron Ronnie.
Neutron Ronnie
From The Front of Armament
- AKA
- Powerslave
You don't say?
And I was serious - how do you know that he was being half-controlled there? This is the first I'm hearing of headaches... Did Sephi-Rot get headaches? 'Cause I honestly don't remember.
And I was serious - how do you know that he was being half-controlled there? This is the first I'm hearing of headaches... Did Sephi-Rot get headaches? 'Cause I honestly don't remember.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Yeah, for sure.
Sephiroth: You´re enhanced but you´re still human.
Zack: What about you?
*Sephiroth grabs his head, pushes Zack out of the way, in the original starts slashing out at the air and the cascats with his sword.*
Sephiroth: Am I the same as these monsters?
Not to mention that in the original the door to Jenova's chamber is locked, and then it decides to open for Sephiroth when he says ''Mother, please let me in.''
Sephiroth: You´re enhanced but you´re still human.
Zack: What about you?
*Sephiroth grabs his head, pushes Zack out of the way, in the original starts slashing out at the air and the cascats with his sword.*
Sephiroth: Am I the same as these monsters?
Not to mention that in the original the door to Jenova's chamber is locked, and then it decides to open for Sephiroth when he says ''Mother, please let me in.''
Neutron Ronnie
From The Front of Armament
- AKA
- Powerslave
I'm going to be a stickler and say that 1) we don't know that was a headache for sure and 2) the door opening for Sephiroth isn't proof that he was being controlled, as far as I can tell.
At any rate, can you honestly see Jenova caring about rank? I can't... That's why I figured that if Sephiroth at the end of the Nibelheim Incident cared about rank at all, that's all his own thought and emotion, and that makes it important in an analysis of his character. I'm afraid you can't just dismiss it by claiming that he was having headaches and being half-controlled, especially when we don't know that for certain (do we?).
At any rate, can you honestly see Jenova caring about rank? I can't... That's why I figured that if Sephiroth at the end of the Nibelheim Incident cared about rank at all, that's all his own thought and emotion, and that makes it important in an analysis of his character. I'm afraid you can't just dismiss it by claiming that he was having headaches and being half-controlled, especially when we don't know that for certain (do we?).
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
I'm going to be a stickler and say that 1) we don't know that was a headache for sure and 2) the door opening for Sephiroth isn't proof that he was being controlled, as far as I can tell.
At any rate, can you honestly see Jenova caring about rank? I can't... That's why I figured that if Sephiroth at the end of the Nibelheim Incident cared about rank at all, that's all his own thought and emotion, and that makes it important in an analysis of his character. I'm afraid you can't just dismiss it by claiming that he was having headaches and being half-controlled, especially when we don't know that for certain (do we?).
I can't prove that, at least, i don't think it's stated anywhere whether when Sephiroth was burning down Nibelheim he had already overcome Jenova and become the primary will in control of the Jenova cells but I very much think that that happened was when he dissolved into the Lifestream and became immortal.
But I'm not saying that it was Jenova that cared, I'm just saying that he wasn't thinking straight. And that it a fact. in the Last Order part of Sephiroth's UOC entry states that he was insane during the incident. IF he cared about rank, and I'm not saying that he did, that still wouldn't carry much weight for the Sephiroth as we know him in Crisis Core or FFVII and ACC in my mind.
Cannon_Fodder
Pro Adventurer
If this is off topic, I apologize, but how much did Sephiroth know about the girl in the slums? My guess is just that Zack liked her, but what if it was more than that?
If he did know more, being a Shinra operative, he'd obviously know that Aerith's an Ancient, right? If he had 'survived' Nibelheim, do you think he'd go to Aerith's place and kill her or something? Maybe meet his new sister properly?
If he did know more, being a Shinra operative, he'd obviously know that Aerith's an Ancient, right? If he had 'survived' Nibelheim, do you think he'd go to Aerith's place and kill her or something? Maybe meet his new sister properly?
Cannon_Fodder
Pro Adventurer
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification. 
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
If Zack had beaten Sephiroth in Nibelheim, I think he'd have been shocked and dismayed, angry as hell, etc. But I agree, getting beaten by Cloud, a lowly grunt, is so much worse.
I have to say, Sephiroth probably knew at least something about Cloud, rather than no idea at all who he was, since he did know Nibelheim was the kid's home town. Not that he had to have talked to Cloud to learn this, he did ride there in the same truck as Cloud and Zack after all, and being such good friends I am sure those two had to talk about it.
But, even knowing this tiny bit about him doesn't downplay his complete indifference to Cloud. It'd give him no clue about Cloud's excellent potential with a sword, or anything else for that matter. Remember when the bridge breaks on the way to the reactor the first time?
Sephiroth: I know it may seem cold, but we've got no time to search for them.
This line is in reference to the other MP who disappeared at this point. Sephy really doesn't give a shit about him. Sure, he's still basically polite to people, but he can't bother to take a few seconds to look around where they came down? If it had been Cloud, would he have bothered to look for him? Hell no, imnsho.
So I do think Sephiroth's hatred of Cloud is much greater than it would have been for Zack in reversed roles. There is a big difference between screwing up and letting a non-threat gut him and then throw him off the bridge with his own weapon, and getting bested in a real fight with a fellow SOLDIER. So, the relationship builds from there. The above mentioned fact that this sort of humiliation just keeps on coming just keeps stoking the fire. MP Cloud kills Sephiroth in an unimaginable burst of strength and rage. Puppet Cloud snips his strings and kills Sephiroth again, both physically with his friends and in a one-on-one duel of wills, refusing to have his strings tied back on. Depressed As Hell Cloud gets pissed and chops Advent Sephiroth up with Omnislash 5/6. Every time, Cloud is seemingly an underdog for one reason or another, and every time Cloud manages to pull off one big moment (Throwing him off the bridge, Getting his weak-ass mind put back together by Tifa, Getting his motivation back so he had enough power to limit break) that throws it all out of whack. Zack was an underdog too, but never as big of one as Cloud tends to be.
I have to say, Sephiroth probably knew at least something about Cloud, rather than no idea at all who he was, since he did know Nibelheim was the kid's home town. Not that he had to have talked to Cloud to learn this, he did ride there in the same truck as Cloud and Zack after all, and being such good friends I am sure those two had to talk about it.
But, even knowing this tiny bit about him doesn't downplay his complete indifference to Cloud. It'd give him no clue about Cloud's excellent potential with a sword, or anything else for that matter. Remember when the bridge breaks on the way to the reactor the first time?
Sephiroth: I know it may seem cold, but we've got no time to search for them.
This line is in reference to the other MP who disappeared at this point. Sephy really doesn't give a shit about him. Sure, he's still basically polite to people, but he can't bother to take a few seconds to look around where they came down? If it had been Cloud, would he have bothered to look for him? Hell no, imnsho.
So I do think Sephiroth's hatred of Cloud is much greater than it would have been for Zack in reversed roles. There is a big difference between screwing up and letting a non-threat gut him and then throw him off the bridge with his own weapon, and getting bested in a real fight with a fellow SOLDIER. So, the relationship builds from there. The above mentioned fact that this sort of humiliation just keeps on coming just keeps stoking the fire. MP Cloud kills Sephiroth in an unimaginable burst of strength and rage. Puppet Cloud snips his strings and kills Sephiroth again, both physically with his friends and in a one-on-one duel of wills, refusing to have his strings tied back on. Depressed As Hell Cloud gets pissed and chops Advent Sephiroth up with Omnislash 5/6. Every time, Cloud is seemingly an underdog for one reason or another, and every time Cloud manages to pull off one big moment (Throwing him off the bridge, Getting his weak-ass mind put back together by Tifa, Getting his motivation back so he had enough power to limit break) that throws it all out of whack. Zack was an underdog too, but never as big of one as Cloud tends to be.