Butthurt Sephiroth fans? Yeah..I went there

[Lord Noctis]

Face it, Sesshiroth is just another lame-ass bishonen with an overcompensating sword.

C wut I did thar? Seriously, I could write an essay on how bad of a villain he is.

Anyway, back on topic, videos still aren't up yet. They should give us a two-fer and give us Zidane and Kuja too, we've heard Squall and Ultimecia already.

I could write an essay on how good of a villian he is.

I personally liked his lack of screentime, as it made him feel more mysterious and menacing. That, and when he did show up it had more of an impact, as opposed to other villians who are always there.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I could write an essay on how good of a villian he is.

I personally liked his lack of screentime, as it made him feel more mysterious and menacing. That, and when he did show up it had more of an impact, as opposed to other villians who are always there.

You liked Zemus over Golbez too, didn't you?

 

[Lord Noctis]

You liked Zemus over Golbez too, didn't you?

Nope. The difference is, the way Zemus was handled didn't give him a menacing presence. He almost wasn't even there. You don't even learn about him until the game is almost over.

Sephiroth on the other hand, was always there, just over the horizon. You knew he was there, you knew he was up to no good, but you weren't sure what he would do next, or when. For me that gave a sense of anticipation, and when he did show up and do something, the calm collected way he handled it gave him a quiet aura of menace. It was subtle, as opposed to being right in your face like with so many other villians.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Sephiroth on the other hand, was always there, just over the horizon. You knew he was there, you knew he was up to no good, but you weren't sure what he would do next, or when. For me that gave a sense of anticipation, and when he did show up and do something, the calm collected way he handled it gave him a quiet aura of menace. It was subtle, as opposed to being right in your face like with so many other villians.

Except he almost never showed up, and when he did he didn't do much of anything. He spent more time speaking to the party than he did doing anything evil. It wasn't subtle, it was laxed. A good villain is not just an arbitrary final boss that the heroes journey towards - that's a MacGuffin, and that's what Sephiroth is, a pointless MacGuffin that doesn't really appear but is just there to give the heroes a goal to work towards. The villain shouldn't have to be explained by the other characters as evil, their evilness should be present for us to see for ourselves.

A good villain should be present for the party to act against, to provide conflict and tension. Good villains appear and do things to antagonize the heroes and establish their position as villain. Sephiroth doesn't do anything, he appears to do anything of significance only four times throughout the game - Nibelheim, Temple of the Ancients, Aerith's death, Northern Crater sequence. This is not how a good villain should operate, a villain should appear more than half a dozen times.

If you only see the villain a handful of times and they don't do anything really villainous in those times, how can we be expected to take them seriously as a villain? If you expect me to believe a villain is evil, don't explain their evil to me, show it to me with evil acts and evil deeds. If you just sit around and don't do anything with your role as a villain, then you're a lousy villain. See also - Zemus, Ultimecia, Vayne, Dark King, Necron, and countless others in other games.

Good villains are there for the party to act against, to do things the player to show they are the villain. A good villain is not just a distant schemer, they act as a source of conflict to the party and antagonize the heroes directly. See also - Kefka, Golbez, Kuja, Shinra, Dr. Cid, Seifer and Edea. Hell, they sucked but even Seymour and Exdeath were better villains than Sephiroth. Why? Because they actually *did* something with their role.

When the party has to call a time-out every other town to recap why they're fighting the villain and remind the player what his goal is and why he's evil, the villain isn't doing his job right. Up until the Temple of the Ancients, Sephiroth wasn't shown to be *planning* to do anything evil, up until that point the party was like "we're gonna stop Sephiroth. We don't know what he's planning, and he hasn't done anything yet, but when he tries, we'll be ready for him". It's pretty sad when even the party has to admit they're not quite sure why they're fighting the villain.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Except he almost never showed up, and when he did he didn't do much of anything. He spent more time speaking to the party than he did doing anything evil. It wasn't subtle, it was laxed. A good villain is not just an arbitrary final boss that the heroes journey towards - that's a MacGuffin, and that's what Sephiroth is, a pointless MacGuffin that doesn't really appear but is just there to give the heroes a goal to work towards. The villain shouldn't have to be explained by the other characters as evil, their evilness should be present for us to see for ourselves.

A good villain should be present for the party to act against, to provide conflict and tension. Good villains appear and do things to antagonize the heroes and establish their position as villain. Sephiroth doesn't do anything, he appears to do anything of significance only four times throughout the game - Nibelheim, Temple of the Ancients, Aerith's death, Northern Crater sequence. This is not how a good villain should operate, a villain should appear more than half a dozen times.

If you only see the villain a handful of times and they don't do anything really villainous in those times, how can we be expected to take them seriously as a villain? If you expect me to believe a villain is evil, don't explain their evil to me, show it to me with evil acts and evil deeds. If you just sit around and don't do anything with your role as a villain, then you're a lousy villain. See also - Zemus, Ultimecia, Vayne, Dark King, Necron, and countless others in other games.

Good villains are there for the party to act against, to do things the player to show they are the villain. A good villain is not just a distant schemer, they act as a source of conflict to the party and antagonize the heroes directly. See also - Kefka, Golbez, Kuja, Shinra, Dr. Cid, Seifer and Edea. Hell, they sucked but even Seymour and Exdeath were better villains than Sephiroth. Why? Because they actually *did* something with their role.

When the party has to call a time-out every other town to recap why they're fighting the villain and remind the player what his goal is and why he's evil, the villain isn't doing his job right. Up until the Temple of the Ancients, Sephiroth wasn't shown to be *planning* to do anything evil, up until that point the party was like "we're gonna stop Sephiroth. We don't know what he's planning, and he hasn't done anything yet, but when he tries, we'll be ready for him". It's pretty sad when even the party has to admit they're not quite sure why they're fighting the villain.

Won't bother responding to all of this. Instead I'll list the evil things Sephiroth does.

Burns Nibelheim.
Massacres everyone in the Shinra building.
Kills the people on the cargo ship, or at least the ones below deck.
mentally tortures Cloud on many occasions, starting at the Temple Of The ancients. (This not only includes the mind control, but also the times when he just is just treating Cloud like a puppet, such as when he appears in Cloud's dream just after the temple of the ancients)
Tries to kill Tseng
Kills Aerith.
Manipulates the party.
Virtually destroys Cloud's will to live.
Summons Meteor, which will likely kill most if not all life on the planet.

As it is, Sephiroth wasn't suposed to be like Kefka, who was never really subtle from the players standpoint, or all that mysterious. Sephiroth worked behind the scenes, so you knew he was doing something, but you were only getting hints of it. This created tension for me, and a build-up to the big reveal. He would drop hints along the way, such as his refference to the reunion in the nibelheim basement.

Now, if you have a different opinion, thats cool. We're lucky enough to live in an age where you can have differeing opinions and still get along.

 

[OWA-2]

lol Chaos insulted himself.

People only make the association since his Dissidia redesign

Bullshit. I remember people comparing Kefka with the Joker MUCH before Dissidia was even announced.

Even though the Joker came along long before Kefka, I doubt SE was looking to American comics for inspiration.

And you agree with Drake that SE was looking to the Inuyasha manga for inspiration on Sephiroth? Get real.



And Drake, you say Sephiroth's appearance is very cliche, but then I see in your profile that one of your favorite characters is friggin Sesshoumaru. You say that Sephiroth have no personality, but then you tell us that you liked Elfe(a character with even less personality than him, like Sesshoumaru too).
This is ridiculous. Stop inventing excuses to bash Sephiroth and just admit you don't like him because of his popularity over JoKerfka. Because this is blatantly obvious by now. You don't need to keep denying it.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

And you agree with Drake that SE was looking to the Inuyasha manga for inspiration on Sephiroth? Get real.

A lot more likely, since Inuyasha is from the same country and came out months before hand.

And Drake, you say Sephiroth's appearance is very cliche, but then I see in your profile that one of your favorite characters is friggin Sesshoumaru. You say that Sephiroth have no personality, but then you tell us that you liked Elfe(a character with even less personality than him, like Sesshoumaru too).
This is ridiculous. Stop inventing excuses to bash Sephiroth and just admit you don't like him because of his popularity over JoKerfka. Because this is blatantly obvious by now. You don't need to keep denying it.

Excuse me? I don't like Sesshomaru, where are you getting that from? And my Elfe post, are you stalking me or something?

No, I hate Sephiroth because he's a lousy villain, as I've said. It has nothing to do with him being more popular than Kefka, because Kefka isn't the only villain in the series that is superior to him, many others were too.

Don't be so butthurt just because I don't like a character. Be like Noctis and live with it.

 

[Max Payne]

Bullshit. I remember people comparing Kefka with the Joker MUCH before Dissidia was even announced.

That may be true I certainly didn't see the constant comparisons until after TDK and Dissidia both showed up.

No need to curse buddy.

And you agree with Drake that SE was looking to the Inuyasha manga for inspiration on Sephiroth? Get real.

Hell no. Stop being so touchy over video game characters. I was merely expressing my opinion on the Kefka subject. Never did I even touch on the Sephiroth nonsense.

Way to jump to random conclusions chief.

The Sephiroth crap probably needs to be split into its own thread anyway.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That may be true I certainly didn't see the constant comparisons until after TDK and Dissidia both showed up.

No need to curse buddy.

Hell no. Stop being so touchy over video game characters. I was merely expressing my opinion on the Kefka subject. Never did I even touch on the Sephiroth nonsense.

Way to jump to random conclusions chief.

The Sephiroth crap probably needs to be split into its own thread anyway.

Better yet, just drop it. I've said my piece, Noctis has said his. This is a Dissidia thread anyway.

 

[Max Payne]

Well not anymore anyway

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Ah well, probably for the best. Now when I read the Dissidia thread I don't have to worry about this dead horse being tormented.

 

[Dark and Divine]

I think every FF villain has their merits and notability. To be honest, I can't think of any that are really all that bad or dumb. Each one brings something new and interesting to the mix. Sephiroth's villainy is highly personal and he's a nemesis in terms of his evil..more so than most of the FF villains in the game. His connection and ties to Cloud run deep, which is probably why he's thought of so highly and remembered. Despite how little we see of him personally in FFVII, the pursuit of him, and the mind games he inflicts on Cloud, really leave a mark and make him memorable to a lot of people.

Kefka would probably be right up there, given his relentless pursuit of the FFVI heroes and how characterized and memorable he was in FFVI. Kefka and Sephiroth share that same distinction but are polar opposites. You see Kefka a lot as compared to Sephy in FFVII. And Kefka's a lot more unhinged and extroverted in his hatefulness than Sephiroth, who's madness is more of an undercurrent of quiet murderous intent and insanity.

^This!

They're different kinds of villains.

Really, this whole Kefka vs. Sephiroth thing is getting even more tiresome than FFVII's Love Triangle.

Frankly, due to my admiration for both characters, it saddens me to see fan(atic)s from both sides bashing both of them whenever they have the chance, even if the subject is unrelated to it. "Kefka is a clown and a Joker ripoff"; "Sephiroth is a mama's boy"... after years and years of stupid arguments, doesn't anyone get tired of this shit?

None of them is really better than the other and none of them is "lousy", they just won't appeal to everyone.

Some people like a bat-shit insane villain like Kefka, while a shadowy, cold and ominous villain like Sephiroth will appeal to some other people.

Personally, i love these two types of villains, the same way i love theatrical villains (like Kuja).

But beyond these basic types of villainy, there are several other elements that make these characters memorable, such as their backgrounds, the personalities of the characters themselves, their visual magnificience, their charisma, their divine power, the way they interact with the other characters, their feats...even their musical themes, all of these elements contribute to make Kefka and Sephiroth (and Kuja, since i mentioned him) as memorable as they are.

All in all, will they, individually, appeal to everyone?

Again, no, but that doesn't make better or worse that any other characters. They're just different from each other.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And Drake, you say Sephiroth's appearance is very cliche, but then I see in your profile that one of your favorite characters is friggin Sesshoumaru. You say that Sephiroth have no personality, but then you tell us that you liked Elfe(a character with even less personality than him, like Sesshoumaru too).

Uh, Sesshomaru may not be the top of the originality chat, but he does have a personality.

This is ridiculous. Stop inventing excuses to bash Sephiroth and just admit you don't like him because of his popularity over JoKerfka. Because this is blatantly obvious by now. You don't need to keep denying it.

That's just uncalled for OWA. And as I recall, you are not one to be casting any stones with the glass house you're in.

A lot more likely, since Inuyasha is from the same country and came out months before hand.

Yes, IY came out before FF7- though not months beforehand, it came out in November- but Sesshypoo didn't appear until the 12th chapter- The next year- And Sephiroth's design had to be hammered in early on in FF7. On the other hand, Manga are typically completed right at the wire, so Sesshy's design would still more likely be based of Sephy.

That may be true I certainly didn't see the constant comparisons until after TDK and Dissidia both showed up.

Nah. Jokefka comments have been around since 6 came out, but Dissidia and BatBale put them into the public consciousness together at the same time.

 

[Max Payne]

Hence the "constant comparisons" line.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, just posting to say less posting ad hominem, kthx. If you disagree with someone, don't attack his personal preferences, but his arguments, .

 

[Smaddy]

I think one thing with the villain of FF7 issue is that there really isn't one definitive "bad guy".

As far as Sephiroth, really truly, what he did was burn down Nibleheim. The rest of that stuff was done by an avatar of his, because he was dead. I do give Seph credit for using his willpower to do what he did. Not to mention, he attempts to control Cloud's actions/mind for most of the game (even until the very end, when they make a specific point of having Cloud defeat the Sephiroth influence within his own personality). When you think about it, it's kind of freaky what he did -- including controlling Cloud to the point of nearly killing Aeris and giving over the Black Materia.

I used to be really into the FF6 vs FF7 stuff (including Kefka vs Sephiroth), but then I realized it's like comparing apples to oranges. Sephiroth's influence over the storyline as a villain is very indirect. It's a lot of mind games and him controlling things (i.e. avatars, sending Jenova out, geostigma, etc) as opposed to direct, physical in-your-face stuff (like how Kefka

Spoiler

poisons Doma, kills Leo/Gestahl

, etc).

And then you could go another step and say that Sephiroth isn't technically the villain; it's actually ShinRa/Hojo. Had Hojo not been such an ass, then Sephiroth would never have felt how he did and never would have been against the world. Remember, Seph started the whole downward spiral when he found out the truth about Jenova?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can't believe people are still arguing a subjective opinion here.

Good post though Smaddy, but...this started as an FFVII villain fanboy discussion that really didn't need to happen. People need to just accept people's opinions and not get upset over them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I can't believe people are still arguing a subjective opinion here.

I wish people wouldn't degrade to arguing yeah, but hey, subjective opinions can be discussed and debated. That's what forms the basis of creative writing clubs and such.

As far as Sephiroth goes, he's okay, I think. Villains such as Krelian, Fou Lu, Officer Tenpenny, Ramsus, Luca Blight, Grahf, and so on made a much better impression on me and I would say some of them are flat out better written, but Sephiroth isn't horrible or anything.

 

[Super Mario]

I could write an essay on how good of a villian he is.

Instead why not divert your time to more important things like writing an essay of how you could get a good job or get a hot banging 32 F breast sized girlfriend?

 

[Makoeyes987]

But it did degrade to arguing.

I'm pretty sure, that no amount of arguing or name calling is going to magically make Drake become a fan of Sephiroth. I'm pretty sure he's just gonna keep thinking what he thinks, regardless of what some guy on the internet types to him.

Instead why not divert your time to more important things like writing an essay of how you could get a good job or get a hot banging 32 F breast sized girlfriend?

Cause that shit is SO CASH, right? lolol

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But it did degrade to arguing.

I'm pretty sure, that no amount of arguing or name calling is going to magically make Drake become a fan of Sephiroth. I'm pretty sure he's just gonna keep thinking what he thinks, regardless of what some guy on the internet types to him.

Yeah, and that's a good point and it makes me think of something; I think debates like this, on a public forum are more of a means for other people to jump in the middle of two people and add their own thoughts and eventually form a large scale discussion, than it is just to have two people debating back and forth.

If nothing else it can be fun. With that said, let's keep this civil, everyone.

 

[Super Mario]

Cause that shit is SO CASH, right? lolol

No because there's more important things to do in life than waste time and energy praising some lame fictional character which quite frankly is too generic and cliche now. : (

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then get off the forums and do something else? You're kinda doing the same thing, bub.

 

[Max Payne]

Officer Tenpenny? LOL he's even more generic than sefiros.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Then get off the forums and do something else? You're kinda doing the same thing, bub.