Changes in the Fandom

[Starling]

They made a point of saying Cloud would be less mopey in the new Dissidia, that could mean even they're feeling the pushback.

And, like I always say, Nojima has not shown Cloud inconsistently. In Crisis Core, Cloud wasn't mopey outside of Nibelheim, where we already knew he was feeling inadequate. And Case of Tifa starts with Cloud being completely normal before descending into depression. So even if you don't like Cloud's direction in Advent Children, Nojima was doing it consciously. And his downtrodden-ness in Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia has nothing to do with Nojima.

All the backlash I kept seeing about Advent Children meant it took me a while to actually get around to watching it. It might be because I only ever saw the ACC version and the older one might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned but when I finally watched, it, I really didn't find Cloud as angsty as everyone seemed to think he was. I mean, there's enough context to understand he's in a slump, which he gets out of before the end of the movie.

Because of this, I've been thinking stuff like Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia giving that impression to people who may only know Cloud through those games might be the actual cause.

FFVII is lucky that it's fandom is huge, it's just that not a lot of people are active in it. Which means that it's going to get some great fandom contributions no matter what happens.

Lets just hope that it doesn't become the gaming version of the Harry Potter and Naruto fandoms that are rife with Possession Sues and contain so much canon-bashing that I don't even go looking though those fandoms for fics anymore. Fics that are written in the spirit of the canon material are just too rare to justify slogging though all the bad-fics.

While I haven't run into any possession sues, I've seen some pretty crappy FF7 fics. In fact, I've seen some pretty messed up ones rather recently. I don't know how bad the HP and Naruto fandoms are but I'll just take your word on the matter.

 

[Roger]

Because of this, I've been thinking stuff like Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia giving that impression to people who may only know Cloud through those games might be the actual cause.

The original Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts 2 are the worst offenders, and were the most high-profile appearances Cloud had after FFVII.

 

[Starling]

I've long accepted that the characterization of FF characters in Kingdom Hearts is less than ideal, since the focus is on the KH characters, not them. The Disney world plots suffer a similar problem. As for the original AC, I've long decided not to bother with it.

 

[Kashkabald]

My issue with "mopey" Cloud is that FFVII is very much a story of overcoming depression: Cloud pretty much realizes a large bit of his life has been a giant lie, falls into depression, and eventually with everyone's help manages to get himself back standing and says "Let's mosey!" before saving the world. That and how it was confirmed that Cloud was depressed again in AC due to pandering to that part of the fanbase. At least he had a good excuse for it (Geostigma) but still...

Speaking of fandom, I wonder if Sony will announce the return of Frank Verderosa next E3.

 

[Starling]

Here's what Cloud's character page on Tvtropes has to say about it:

If you haven't played the original game, you'll be surprised at how non angsty Cloud was. He did angst and express hesitation and insecurities, but only at key points and for good reasons, and at the end of the game seemed perfectly fine. In his appearances since, he has been an angsty brooding loner. Square Enix states outright in The Reunion Files (basically the Ultimania for Advent Children) that they regressed his personality back to a mindset they thought fans would be more familiar with, making this a case of Pandering to the Base. In all fairness, it'd be downright absurd to think he'd just be emotionally fixed by the end of the game. Anyone who might go through what Cloud went through might need a few years to fully reconcile. Like 30 of them.

I think they summed it up pretty neutrally, considering it's under Flanderization.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^TvTropes can be really hit and miss with popular fandoms. They do a pretty good job with Final Fantasy 7 though...

 

[Blade]

As someone who never really CARED for the oddball fandoms of any of half the things I liked, all I can say is that you can like what you want and DO what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people like things for different reasons... and those reasons WILL BE DISPUTED.

My reason for liking FF7 is as plain as my username.

I like Swords.

That's it.

If Sephiroth killed half the raving, illogical, delusional fanbase the same way as he did Aerith, I think I'd sleep better at night, but I don't think that's going to happen.

If anything changes, I think it will be that the rabid fans who had wild expectations will be crushed and leave, making the world a better place without their unrealistic delusions mucking things up.

I don't like Back-seat Developers and Critics, so I accept games for what they are (or in this case, will be) as much as possible.

I like being hopeful but I know there's only so much that can be done. Squeenix isn't a Genie, FFXIII proved that much.

 

[Tetsujin]

You unlock some of Cloud's voice data in Duodecim and you can see the big difference between Steve Burton's own takes and the sullen voice they made him do.

Oh? Where can I hear that?

 

[Cat on Mars]

I won't miss the 'small pond' fandom. Before this announcement, the fandom was a tiny pond getting smaller and smaller under the sun. Changes? Hell yeah! I'm excited about the remake and I'm equally excited about the idea of new fans.

New LTD.

As a seasoned veteran of many shipping wars, who never gave a shit about those pairings, I say... Bring it on. After all this years, the thought amuses me.

Now, I really want SE to remove that red herring from the story. I still feel that I never liked Aeris because I reacted badly to her over the top attempts to become a romantic interest for Cloud since the very first time you talk to her in the church. I mean... ok, she must be likeable because her death has to impact the player. But... that was the only thing they could think of? That's lazy.
I know hey will never change that love LT stuff, tough.

THIS.

See the 'emo Cloud' threads. Finally, this can be put to rest.

I hope so. I liked Cloud just fine in the OG, and loved his attitude of "I fucked everything up (without even knowing why) so I'm going to fix it now I finally know what was happening" before the final battle. When I saw his characterization in AC, it felt odd. It's like he hadn't learned a damn thing from the OG.
ACC made a better job at explaining his behaviour, but the damage was done.

 

[Zee]

I still feel that I never liked Aeris because I reacted badly to her over the top attempts to become a romantic interest for Cloud since the very first time you talk to her in the church.

she asked cloud to walk her home once because she thought he was cute and then when she finds out he actually took his bodyguard job Very Seriously decides to take the piss out of him until she dies

edit: i take it back because i just remembered when he passes out in near death in advent children as she's healing him she pretty much calls him a baby

aeris is literally too good for this earth

 

[Starling]

Don't forget that the Turks had just attempted to kidnap her and that she was, on some level, trying to recreate her relationship with Zack (at least at first).

 

[Cat on Mars]

she asked cloud to walk her home once because she thought he was cute and then when she finds out he actually took his bodyguard job Very Seriously decides to take the piss out of him until she dies

edit: i take it back because i just remembered when he passes out in near death in advent children as she's healing him she pretty much calls him a baby

aeris is literally too good for this earth

I see Compilation Aerith and OG Aeris as two different characters, or maybe different versions of the character. Imo, SE simply modifies her characterization when it 'suits' the story. That's why she acted more mother-like in AC. In the OG, she was anything but maternal.

 

[Zee]

compilation aeris is a hollowed out robot they put in aeris' place and i hope they get the real her back in time for the remake

 

[Cat on Mars]

Don't forget that the Turks had just attempted to kidnap her and that she was, on some level, trying to recreate her relationship with Zack (at least at first).

The kidnapping attempt sure made me want to know more about her character... but not about her love life. Let's say I couldn't care about that so early in the game. I didn't know her!

You know, it's not that I disliked her after that part. But the first things we learnt about her had to do with her love life, and dates, and I'd like that toned down. It's a matter of opinion, anyway.

compilation aeris is a hollowed out robot they put in aeris' place and i hope they get the real her back in time for the remake

QFT.

 

[Zee]

aeris was never trying to "recreate" her relationship with zack, she was just curious about someone who, at least surface level, seemed a lot like him. aeris has a weird relationship with shinra. she hates them, but also says tseng is her best friend and the only person who knew her. it's pretty fucked up when you think about it

her being overly optimistic and covering up her insecurities by being loud is part of who she is. i dont want that toned down, because then compilation aeris is exactly what we get. i don't want that. i want rude, blunt, overly friendly aeris who isn't socially aware enough to realize not everybody wants to hop to a gold saucer party after something traumatic happened. the same aeris who brushes off nearly being beat to death by cloud and doesn't talk about it afterwards because that's how she's learned to deal with things when she has no one to talk to.

there's quite a bit of depth to her and we do get those moments if you pay attention, unfortunately everyone's so hung up on what ratio she cares about cloud & zack that they completely ignore them

 

[Starling]

Well actually, the first thing we learn about Aerith is that she sells flowers for 1 gil in sector 8. The conversation in the church, while a bit flirty, seems like a pretty normal conversation between 2 people getting to know each-other, given the situation. I mostly brought up the kidnapping as a reason for Aerith to want Cloud to stick around longer, along with how he reminded her of Zack. The mentions of her love-life at that point serve to hint at that, as well as how Aerith is still trying to deal with his disappearance. Cutting back on things like that would lead to the loss of little hints and character development I'd rather not part with.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

What I got out of Aerith being flirty is "I must be really hot since all the girls I meet seem to be hitting on me. Jesse likes me. Tifa and I had a childhood thing, pretty girl from random church likes me..." Then by the time we get to Gold Saucer it's clear that pretty much every girl Cloud meets and is friends with wants to date him (and also Barret, Barret wants to date him but clearly has issues expressing his feelings - awkward date).

So my conclusion was more the game was trying to tell me Cloud is very hot and everyone likes him - which I didn't get because I thought he was kind of a jerk.

 

[Cat on Mars]

her being overly optimistic and covering up her insecurities by being loud is part of who she is. i dont want that toned down, because then compilation aeris is exactly what we get. i don't want that. i want rude, blunt, overly friendly aeris who isn't socially aware enough to realize not everybody wants to hop to a gold saucer party after something traumatic happened. the same aeris who brushes off nearly being beat to death by cloud and doesn't talk about it afterwards because that's how she's learned to deal with things when she has no one to talk to.

I never said I wanted her personality to be toned down. But... is her love life and dates the only way to show her personality? Obviously not, as your Golden Saucer reference implies. That's why I think the romantic stuff isn't needed that badly in the remake. *shrugs* But I'm sure they won't change that anyway, don't worry guys.

And I think we're going somewhat off-topic.

So my conclusion was more the game was trying to tell me Cloud is very hot and everyone likes him - which I didn't get because I thought he was kind of a jerk.

Yeah, I always found weird how no one (except Barret, maybe) seemed to notice Cloud's asshattery.

 

[Roger]

Tifa had her reasons to still want to be around Cloud. He's already a lot friendlier to Aerith, let alone by the time he runs into the rest of the crew. Marlene's afriad of him, Barret fights with him plenty. It's just the three AVALANCHE members that are a bit oblivious.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Aerith's love life is a crucial piece of the puzzle that is Cloud's identity, which is why the script flags it early on as something that's important for us to pay attention to. I came into the game knowing this, so it's hard for me to judge whether the dialogue is weak at that point, but I think perhaps they could have made it clearer to the player that Cloud eerily reminds her of someone she used to be very close to, someone who mysteriously disappeared, and since Cloud is obviously a SOLDIER, she thinks he may be able to tell her something about what happened to Zack. Hence her clumsy hints and attempts to pump him for information. I don't think Elmyra is afraid of Aerith falling for Cloud so much as she is afraid, maybe, of Zack returning or of Aerith getting sucked back into that world, dangerously close to Shinra.

I'd like to see them make her more flirty with everybody generally, so she's no so obviously hitting on Cloud. If you remember, she's pretty good at charming just about everyone she meets into doing her bidding.

 

[Lex]

^I always enjoyed that about her character. It's something I particularly noticed yesterday when I played the game for a bit, when you leave her outside to go into the Honey Bee Inn and she's given Johnny a flower and 1 gil and charged the other two dudes 300 and 500 gil, and told one of them she wouldn't go out with him for 1,000,000 Gil. She knows how to take care of herself and the Johnny thing shows that she's a particularly good judge of character, since Johnny seems to be partly ashamed to be there and too scared to actually go in.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith's love life

Sweet lord, it's started.

 

[Lex]

DON'T SAY IT

 

[Cat on Mars]

Aerith's love life is a crucial piece of the puzzle that is Cloud's identity, which is why the script flags it early on as something that's important for us to pay attention to.

I get your point and agree... because now I know the whole story. At that point in my first playthrough the situation didn't make any sense for me. Retroactive foreshadowing has its limitations.

I'd like to see them make her more flirty with everybody generally, so she's no so obviously hitting on Cloud.

That's exactly what I'd like to see, too.

And now I think of it... we know Aeris is a very direct person. And she sure can charm anyone and has a way with Cloud. So... why is she so clumsy at fishing for information? Am I missing something here?
It'd be cool the remake explored in some depth these matters, so we won't spend other 20 years hunting for hints.