Character Directions Post-DoC

[Octo]

I dunno, I think Cid understood in the OG how Aeriths power was limited and until Seph was defeated she couldn't do anything, so I don't think he'd blame her for not healing Geostigma soon enough.

 

[Tennyo]

Chaos returned to the planet with Omega at the end of DoC though. The large mako sphere that was seen in the atmosphere was the Omega Weapon's mako construct returning to the planet as Chaos ordered It to with himself.

Vincent is no longer the vessel for Chaos, so no one would come hunting him. That being said, I doubt Cloud would ever actually kill Vincent if the red gunslinger was actively trying to destroy the world as the Chaos Weapon. I'd reckon Cloud would just find him, beat him up until he reverted to normal, and take him to a secluded area to talk about being a puppet of someone's will and how it can break your mind, destory all that you love and is a huge disparity to who you are. You know, stuff Cloud is an expert at.

The point was never that Vincent will become Chaos, it's that he did once and people have an irrational fear that it will happen again.

I can't see Chaos returning to the planet being a factor. People could still be scared.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

that's what i meant

 

[wayfarer]

first post in a long long time, but I liked this topic a lot I love "what ifs."

Firstly, a lot of people were talking about Tifa at the beginning of this thread and I figured I'd belatedly chime in. My friends just lent me Duodecim and whilst playing I had a bit of an epiphany about her character. She NEVER was a warrior. Martial arts was her hobby. She entered the fray because of Cloud and Barrett, specifically because of a motherly concern for Cloud. Cloud and Vincent are really the only characters compelled to fight, and that's because they are two very very lost men. Barrett's an activist. Yuffie's a thief. And everyone else just got in a little bit over their heads and that's what transformed Tifa into a makeshift bad ass, because she had to if she wanted to stay alive. Yeah, she's a housewife now. Whatever, it's what her character needs. It was her motivation in the first place.

I've also come to the conclusion that Cloud has always been a sulking doucher, and his liveliness and such all stemmed from Zack. From what little I saw of him in DoC, he seems (thankfully) a little more confident and comfortable with himself than he was in AC and what I've seen in the Dissidia games. Not like he's saved for the world a couple times or anything.

Barrett, Yuffie, Cid, Nanaki and such are all pretty static characters.

As far as villains go-- if it's gonna top off the series bringing Sephiroth back is kinda a prerequisite. I know we're all very tired of him and they shouldn't have wasted him on AC but hear me out. Instead of the same Sephiroth ressurection scheme, I enjoy the idea of Genesis playing Sephiroth, leading him on, letting his intentions remain completely in the dark until it's too late. Genesis always seemed like a real schemer to me anyway, so I'm seeing the whole conflict of the next game as one giant con to get Sephiroth to do exactly what he wants and unleash something that not even Sephiroth can stop. Pulling another deus ex machina like they did with meteor in the original would be noticably double dipping so maybe Cloud will have to die or something. :/ My thought anyway.

 

[Unlucky]

As far as villains go-- if it's gonna top off the series bringing Sephiroth back is kinda a prerequisite. I know we're all very tired of him and they shouldn't have wasted him on AC but hear me out. Instead of the same Sephiroth ressurection scheme, I enjoy the idea of Genesis playing Sephiroth, leading him on, letting his intentions remain completely in the dark until it's too late. Genesis always seemed like a real schemer to me anyway, so I'm seeing the whole conflict of the next game as one giant con to get Sephiroth to do exactly what he wants and unleash something that not even Sephiroth can stop. Pulling another deus ex machina like they did with meteor in the original would be noticably double dipping so maybe Cloud will have to die or something. :/ My thought anyway.

nooooo000OOOO

I'd love to hear you elaborate your idea, but as much as possible I prefer any other villain except Sephiroth in the next title. It's really getting old fast and would just cheapen his character imo. And as far as Genesis is concerned, him playing a part in Cloud's 'supposed death' as you proposed will most likely establish him as one of the most suck-ass video game characters ever.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

if there is the need to 'revive' sephiroth (that isn't completly a bad think imo) surely it should be a invisible fear in the folks.
i mean, like i-think-tennyo says, there isn't a real need of make him reborn, but it's a realistic idea the fear that somethings like the meteor crisis can happen again.
like after the WWI, a lot of people aren't really sure about the future, everybody fear the possible that what happened can recur.
imo.

 

[wayfarer]

What I'm saying is Sephiroth's been in every compilation title excluding DoC and that if you guys expect his absence I think that's really unrealistic. And seriously if they're going to end the compilation that's a pretty big deal. His presence is kind of almost required. Now what I'm suggesting is: don't make it a Sephiroth-fest, I'm suggesting to change the formula and dynamic they've established and give us something fresh.

But I also had another epiphany which is: Weiss is going to be part of this too somehow. What does Genesis need him for? Is he dead? Is he actually sentient because Hojo's been there for a long time? Does Genesis know that Hojo was inside him?

 

[Shademp]

I am thinking about creating a separate "Post-DoC" thread, one that is not strictly limited to character directions, but that involves ideas/wishes/speculation on any story or gameplay element (the latter is something I really think this community as a whole should experiment more with in their minds).
Should I do this and if so what should I call the thread? Should it be merged with this thread or should I just have this one re-named? I'm having a REALLY hard time making up my mind here


On topic, I'm going to try summarize what we know about Denzel so far and what this might say about his future in the Compilation.

The Setup So Far​

(Note: I did not fully re-read Case of Denzel or Case of Tifa for this, so I may be missing some important insights here into Denzel's character as a small child, which may not be clear when watching the OVA.)

I see Denzel as a guy who wants to support and help people; he rubs the back of the kid dying from Geostigma, he holds Ruvie's hand and at the early age of 10 he volunteers to join the WRO army. He is also afraid of being a burden, as he blames himself for Cloud leaving in Advent Children. Unfortunately I can think of no more examples to prove that Denzel is someone who cares deeply about helping others. But we know at least of his desire to be strong.

"You know..." Johnny stopped and said, "You can fight whenever you feel like. There's no need to join WRO. What are you so concerned about?"
"Cloud he..."
"What about him?"
"Long ago when he was in the military, he was strong. I too want to be strong."
"Times... Have changed you know."
"In what way?"
"Well, those who can soothe someone's pain are popular in these times are more popular than those who yield weapons."
"It's not like they/I want to be popular, though." Denzel coldly said to Johnny as remembered everyone who gave him encouragement. All those men, women, adults and children who had supported him greatly.

Recall the added scene in ACC where Denzel smashes a waterpost using a pipe, causing water to blast out at the Shadow Creeper which is then knocked off its feet. I see this bit as visualizing his desire to be a strong fighter, plus his spinning-the-pipe move before hitting the waterpost also makes him come off as a mini-version of Cloud.

Speaking of Cloud, we already know that he looks up to this spiky-haired blonde.
Recall the interview from the April Issue of Dengeki PS3:

- “In Nojima’s interview, he said he thinks that since Denzel idolizes Cloud, there’s going to be a period where he doesn’t pay any attention to girls.

We also have this passage from Case of Tifa. TLS Source

While cleaning up in the galley, Tifa looked up towards the center table. There sat the president of Strife Delivery Service—Cloud—and his two assistants, Marlene and Denzel. Denzel suffered from Geostigma, but on the days when he didn’t have a fever or any pain, he would hang around with Cloud. Cloud spent half of each day outside. So once he was home, it was Denzel’s precious time to spend with his hero. Yes, Cloud was a hero to Denzel. Saving Denzel while he was fighting with death as the symptoms of Geostigma erupted again, riding around on a bike… everything Denzel had been yearning for. Denzel wanted to ask everything about Cloud’s past. He would ask Tifa questions about Cloud until he returned home. Once, Tifa half jokingly said to Denzel that she was the one cooking their meals every day. Denzel also said in a grown up manner that he cleaned the house and the bar every day too.

We then have the scene after the credits in ACC, where Cloud takes Denzel to Zack's grave. From the dialogue, we can assume that Denzel is now told more of Cloud's and Zack's respective stories.

Denzel: "Is this somebody's grave?"
Cloud: "No. This is where a hero...began his journey."

Case of Tifa also tells us that Denzel listens first and foremost to Cloud.

It was true, and he done a very thorough job of cleaning. When she asked him if it was his passed away mother who taught him how to clean, he answered no. The following day, Tifa asked Cloud who taught Denzel how to clean. Denzel had revealed it to Cloud. And Tifa was a little hurt.

She was troubled at why Denzel shared that with Cloud yet didn’t share it with her. One day, she tried asking a customer that was about the same age as Denzel about it. His answer was that boys were just like that. So there really wasn’t any problem. They were just a normal family.
...
They were descriptions that would make you ask, “is that all?” but the children seemed satisfied. Soon, Tifa wanted to talk too. When she added in more detail, Denzel would ask Cloud if it was true. It annoyed Tifa a little, but she also thought it was all right. That’s probably what normal families were like.

So we have Denzel, the one who...
- Wants to be strong so he will be better able to help both himself and others.
- Looks up to Cloud as a hero and wants to learn more about- and from him.

Post-DoC Denzel​

Denzel already saw Cloud as a hero, even if only on a personal level. When Cloud no doubt ends up talking about "legacies" and "heroes", Denzel will absorb all this info like a sponge and make it part of his own dreams and values in life.
He will want to become a hero himself, but it's something that he usually keeps to himself. If he says anything, it is that he wants to help people and give them strength.

Cloud did not predict though that tempting Denzel's mind with stories about epic showdowns and "heroes" would form a small rift between them. After being denied by Reeve to join the WRO, Denzel asks Cloud to train him in the art of sword wielding. Cloud will deny Denzel this and respond with things like:
- You don't need swords to fight. If you're worried about monsters, there are monster hunters for that sort of thing.
- The time of fighting is over. Even if another crisis happens, there are many others who can do the fighting.
- Why don't you ask Tifa to teach you some self-defense?

The two first responses are more a result from Cloud's increasing paternal attachment to Denzel. He wants Denzel to live a peaceful life and to not get into trouble that might get him killed.
The third response aggrevates Denzel. He takes it as a defeat since all that matters to him is learning from his hero, Cloud. Denzel drops the subjects and out of pride does not ask Tifa for martial arts lessons.

Fast-forward to seven years after DoC. Denzel is now 16 and old enough to join the WRO army. In the world of FFVII he is no longer legally a child.
At the very start of the game, right after the initial conflicts and threats set the story in motion, Denzel reveals to Cloud, Tifa & Marlene that he is joining the WRO, saying that this is the best way he might help during these troubled times.

Cue emotional family scene. This is a scene where I simply do not dare to even brainstorm dialogue. After living under the same roof for about 8 years, I think that Denzel and Cloud will have developed an odd mix between a teacher-student and father-son relationship. There are a ton of tropes and tired, cliché dialogue that one could easily fall to use here.
Example: "I am old enough and you are not my father."
The challenge is to not make Denzel into a whiny teenager and to not make the game focus on family drama too much. Also, do we want the story to avoid the words "father" and "son" like the plague in the context of Cloud & Denzel, since this may feel like out of place drama in an FFVII narrative?


I can at least envision the following scene Cloud, Tifa and Reeve are in the same room.
Cloud: "Reeve...won't you stop Denzel?"
Reeve: "Denzel is becoming his own man. He has to make his own choices in life. Who am I to stop him?"
Cloud: "Tifa?"
Tifa: "If he does not listen to you Cloud, there is nobody else on the Planet he will listen to."

(For extra family drama we would have Tifa says "You know he never listens to me", but again we probably want to tone this down.)

At this point I see Denzel both as an NPC you can visit in the WRO HQ at times, plus you may encounter him in a few spots around the world after he has been sent there on missions. He is present but not a playable character. I feel Denzel is the type of character whom it would feel very forced to have as one of the main fighters to help save the world in FFVII:EC, same with Marlene. But they still need to be involved and the setup with Denzel's character in the Compilation needs to have its resolution.

I see the player temporarily taking control over Denzel when our main heroes are in a pinch and Denzel feels he has to do something. He is on Lv1 with low stats and encountering monsters is a dangerous business that even if you survive it will not grant him EXP. The point is to simply survive the journey and get to the end in time to rescue Cloud & Team.


Miscellaneous Arcs

1)
Like Kazushige Nojima said in the interview, there will indeed be a time when he does not care about girls. I think this could extend even from DoC to EC.
Suggestion: Talk to the Moogle Girl in Edge to get the following dialogue.
"I hugged Denzel before he left but he was very cold about it. He has been growing more and more distant from his friends for a long while. Sometimes, I don't think he understands how much I...how much we care for him."
Cheesy as f*ck, I know. But what do you expect, I'm not a writer

2)
What would happen if Denzel learned that Reno is the one who pushed the button that caused the Sector 7 pillar to explode and make the plate fall?
Would he
A) not hold a grudge to Reno in particular and just let it pass because he knows that if it was not Reno then anybody else from Shinra would have pushed that button.
B) see Reno as "the guy who murdered my parents" and then see red

Spoiler

(haha, yes Reno has red hair ok moving on)

if he met Reno in person?
C) none of the above?

This one is truly difficult. When Reeve admits to Denzel that Shinra caused the fall of Sector 7, Reeve does not even try to defend himself and bring up the fact that he spoke against the President's decision. The OVA shows Denzel being upset by having his eyes shake, while Xcomp's translation of the written version says "Denzel shook his head". I am confused as to Denzel's feelings here, but he clearly does not feel justified enough to attack Reeve in any way. =/

Whether it is in Denzel's character or not, I think it would serve a purpose for the story as a whole to have Denzel find out the entire truth and then end up holding Reno at gun point. Not only will Denzel have to face the inner turmoil of both wanting to be a respectable hero, but also wanting to avenge all those who died in Sector 7.
If Cloud is present during about-to-kill-Reno scene, Denzel would be justified to say the following:

Denzel: "When you went after Sephiroth it was to settle the score. That's what you said! Saving the Planet just happened to be part of it. How is this any different?!"
Cloud: "Denzel---!"
Reno: "Sorry to interrupt your family moment, but are you going to kill me or not?"

I may not be good at understanding characters, whether they be fictional or real, but I definitely do not see Reno begging for his life or even acting nervous in a situation like this.

There is also potential here to resolve any character arc for Reno, as he has to face the consequences of his past actions.



3)

"No," Reeve began to say, "The truth is... WRO no longer lets children in."
"You see!"
"Then why didn't you let me know from the start?" Denzel blurted out.
"Well, I just decided that now. While I was listening to your story. There are things that only children can do. That's what I want you to do."
"...What do you mean?"
"Draw out the power in adults."
Denzel waited for him to continue but Reeve stood up like he was finished.

Ok this is mostly a question to the people of this forum. How is Denzel supposed to draw out the power in adults? Hold motivational speeches to the troops?
Is there a way this setup can be used, even if only for stories that take place inbetween DoC and EC?

 

[wayfarer]

I'm not sure I could ever take Denzel seriously as a player character, even though I think that's where Square's definitely headed. I like the idea about Denzel holding a grudge against Reno. That's smart. Although i got the feeling that Case of Denzel and Advent Children were all about him sort of accepting his depressing roots and moving on, although obviously the kid has a right to hold a grudge.

I'm kind of upset the Geostigma issue's resolved because it was one of the more intriguing concepts and ethical dilemmas the compilation put forward. Even though the planet was saved and Sephiroth and Shinra were defeated, the planet still punished everyone on it and it was a serious fucking problem. Seriously they should've just stuck with Deepground and Geostigma and used that for FFVII-2, rather than drawing everything out in an assault of prosaic installments. All the ideas the compilation has presented have been very promising and intriguing: the Genesis/Angeal/Sephiroth trio and their history, Deepground, Geostigma; all of them were either executed poorly or were presented with too many convoluted appendages and became too complex and strange for its own good. Some of the plot points were just ridiculous and not believable versus the OG which felt so authentic and earthy and powerful.

I guess the reason all the compilation titles fell flat was because they never fell into the same groove as the original. Just the presentation and everything it just doesn't match or hardly ever even feel like it's the same universe. I understand the importance of updating and modernizing the franchise, but does anyone else know what I'm talking about???

 

[Shademp]

ADDITIONAL:

- Say that Rufus takes over the WRO while Denzel is still working for the organization. Instead of resigning in protest, Denzel could take this chance to thwart Shinra's plans from the inside.
Reno: "Rude, I thought you said this helicopter had a full tank!"
Rude: "......Somebody has siphoned the gas."

This particular example does not make sense due to Shinra obviously having a ton of vehicles of great variety available at this point, but my point is that this is one method for Denzel to still be a useful character in the background without being forced on the player.


- Remember FFIX, when you control Cid to save the playable characters from Kuja's slow death trap? I really like this moment. You have to be patient when sneaking up on the Hedgehog Pie to get the key, then solve the weight puzzle to get to the switch all while being stressed by the timer of doom. The game lets this side-character shine, but still making it an interactive aspect and not just a cutscene

Spoiler

(INTERACTIVITY IN A VIDEO GAME HOW ABOUT THAT SHIT )

This is what I envision for Denzel's hero/useful-character moment. You have about half an hour before Genesis' trap kills Cloud/Tifa/"Other", and will need both quick reflexes and pull the right switches to get to the end. Whether or not you can actually engage in battles here you should still have the option to enter the menu and check Denzel's battle stats. Having his own battle stats would add to his character, plus it might spur some game-mods where people force Denzel into your party and then unlock how his level progression works.
In these mods they then discover that Denzel is like an Onion Knight from FFIII; at higher levels he becomes greatly overpowered.


- When Denzel gets to have his hero moment near the game's ending, I think he should be using a sword (the one and only time he does so). Perhaps stabbing Genesis from behind, similar to what Cloud did to Sephiroth? It should not be the Buster Sword in use here, due to how this sword is already symbolically overused in the Compilation. I don't think there is danger in mildly mimicking how Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in Nibelheim, as I think Denzel should have a handful of mini-Cloud moments.
Also, I would cheer greatly if Denzel stabbed Genesis. Especially if Genesis was in the middle of some dramatic speech. We get to see Genesis hurt and thusly Denzel becomes more likable. Win-win.

Spoiler: Interactive Element

Ripping off Cid's moment in FFIX, you might have to tap the button to sneak up on Genesis and time it so you only move when Genesis is talking. This will then increase the satisfaction when you finally get to press the action button and SILENCE THAT MOTHERF*CKER with a sword in his back. Press the button at the wrong time and Genesis will turn around and kill Denzel, GAME OVER.

 

[Octo]

I am thinking about creating a separate "Post-DoC" thread, one that is not strictly limited to character directions, but that involves ideas/wishes/speculation on any story or gameplay element (the latter is something I really think this community as a whole should experiment more with in their minds).
Should I do this and if so what should I call the thread? Should it be merged with this thread or should I just have this one re-named? I'm having a REALLY hard time making up my mind here

Personally I just think we should rename this thread Character and Plot Directions post DOC or something.

I think you're pretty spot on about how Denzel's character would develop in relation to idolising Cloud, and how Cloud and Tifa wouldn't really want him following in Cloud's footsteps. They just want peace now.

What would happen if Denzel learned that Reno is the one who pushed the button that caused the Sector 7 pillar to explode and make the plate fall?
Would he
A) not hold a grudge to Reno in particular and just let it pass because he knows that if it was not Reno then anybody else from Shinra would have pushed that button.
B) see Reno as "the guy who murdered my parents" and then see red

Spoiler

(haha, yes Reno has red hair ok moving on)

if he met Reno in person?
C) none of the above?

This one is truly difficult. When Reeve admits to Denzel that Shinra caused the fall of Sector 7, Reeve does not even try to defend himself and bring up the fact that he spoke against the President's decision. The OVA shows Denzel being upset by having his eyes shake, while Xcomp's translation of the written version says "Denzel shook his head". I am confused as to Denzel's feelings here, but he clearly does not feel justified enough to attack Reeve in any way. =/

Whether it is in Denzel's character or not, I think it would serve a purpose for the story as a whole to have Denzel find out the entire truth and then end up holding Reno at gun point. Not only will Denzel have to face the inner turmoil of both wanting to be a respectable hero, but also wanting to avenge all those who died in Sector 7.
If Cloud is present during about-to-kill-Reno scene, Denzel would be justified to say the following:

Denzel: "When you went after Sephiroth it was to settle the score. That's what you said! Saving the Planet just happened to be part of it. How is this any different?!"
Cloud: "Denzel---!"
Reno: "Sorry to interrupt your family moment, but are you going to kill me or not?"

I may not be good at understanding characters, whether they be fictional or real, but I definitely do not see Reno begging for his life or even acting nervous in a situation like this.

There is also potential here to resolve any character arc for Reno, as he has to face the consequences of his past actions.

I dunno, I would like to see Reno (and the other Turks) reaction to all this. How they live with what they did. However, given Denzels reaction to Reeves confession....it seems clear that Denzel understands that what Shinra did was down to Pres Shinra's orders. So really is Reno anymore culpable than any other Shinra employee? Reeve voiced a concern about it but didn't persist or make any serious attempt to stop it. If Reno hadn't pushed that button it would have been someone else.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it would be a bit of a step backwards for Denzel to pursue a vendetta against Reno alone, I think he should just come to terms with it in his own way. Especially as the flipside of the coin is the innocent people killed by Avalanche. The only sensible resolution would be to draw a line under all that and start afresh. So I think A would be the most likely scenario.

Ok this is mostly a question to the people of this forum. How is Denzel supposed to draw out the power in adults? Hold motivational speeches to the troops?
Is there a way this setup can be used, even if only for stories that take place inbetween DoC and EC?

I think what Reeve meant was that children, and not just Denzel draw out the power in adults because it's an adults instinct to protect children. If children become soldiers, they loose their innocence. Thats what I think anyway.

ADDITIONAL:

- Say that Rufus takes over the WRO while Denzel is still working for the organization. Instead of resigning in protest, Denzel could take this chance to thwart Shinra's plans from the inside.
Reno: "Rude, I thought you said this helicopter had a full tank!"
Rude: "......Somebody has siphoned the gas."

This particular example does not make sense due to Shinra obviously having a ton of vehicles of great variety available at this point, but my point is that this is one method for Denzel to still be a useful character in the background without being forced on the player.

I could see this happening, like how I outlined above. If Denzel has come to terms with how both sides did terrible things, then Shinra assuming control of the WRO would be unacceptable to him - if Shinra were up to their old tricks again.

 

[Unlucky]

I agree with Octo on some points, but overall your idea of Denzel's arc is good, Shademp. I particularly like that there's an obvious tension in the family though that really needs to be toned down and not dragged around too much. Like you I also see Tifa getting somewhat jealous and hurt with Denzel's relationship with Cloud; it's already brewing in CoT. And the idea of the player being able to control Denzel for a short part with the goal of simply surviving and not leveling-up sounds exciting.

Spoiler: Interactive Element

Ripping off Cid's moment in FFIX, you might have to tap the button to sneak up on Genesis and time it so you only move when Genesis is talking. This will then increase the satisfaction when you finally get to press the action button and SILENCE THAT MOTHERF*CKER with a sword in his back. Press the button at the wrong time and Genesis will turn around and kill Denzel, GAME OVER.

Yes.

 

[Shademp]

Suggestion:
Reno happens to overhear that Denzel's parents got killed when the Sector 7 plate fell. In this moment we see a flashback to when he activated the self-destruct trigger, then cutting back to the present where Reno's expression mirrors that he reacts to this but we are not entirely sure what his emotional response is.
The flashback would both be there for dramatic effect and to let newcomers get a good idea of what has happened and what is going on. I think that FFVII:EC should be accessible even to a new audience, unlike with other Compilation titles where those not already versed in the mythos often end up confused and/or disoriented.

Later on, Denzel is in trouble and Reno goes out of his way to protect the kid and he gets wounded in the process.
Denzel: "...Why?"
Reno: "Let's just say I have a few debts to repay. Now get out of here and let the pros handle this!"

Assuming Cloud never told Denzel the whole story about the fall of Sector 7, Denzel may still be able to piece this puzzle together as he overheard from Arkham (at the beginning of Case of Denzel) that "the Turks finished planting the explosives".
I think Denzel's character would receive some cred if we saw a brief inner monologue after Reno saved him.
Denzel: "The Turks...they were the ones ordered to destroy the pillar. Did he...?"

This way, Reno gets a spotlight and we see that Denzel isn't just some dumb kid. The issue needs not be brought up again after this, as we assume that Denzel reacts from this the same way as when he spoke to Reeve at Johonny's Heaven.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Suggestion:
Later on, Denzel is in trouble and Reno goes out of his way to protect the kid and he gets wounded in the process.
Denzel: "...Why?"
Reno: "Let's just say I have a few debts to repay. Now get out of here and let the pros handle this!"

Reno's response makes me think of Black Widow's conversation with Loki - only in her case, she was winding Loki up. I can't actually imagine Reno delivering these lines with a straight face, however much he may be motivated by guilt (which is debatable). I can, however, imagine him turning in an Oscar-winning performance as a repentant ex-bad-guy pleading for his life, if he thought the performance might actually succeed in getting him off the hook. It would be quite funny, in a Turk-worthy way (rather than a comic relief way) to see Reno turning on the waterworks in front of Cloud and Denzel, who are just too heroic not to let him go free - and then Reno giving us a wink as he saunters away, having weasled his way out of trouble once again. He is, after all, the master of the victorious retreat.

Aside from those minor details, I actually love the idea of building up Denzel's character and seeing him grow into his own man - someone who admires Cloud, but is not Cloud's copy, or his "living legacy" either.

 

[Shademp]

"What a nightmare, huh? The world was nearly obliterated and we were the obliterators. Seriously though, how are we ever supposed to atone for that? Too bad the director is not around, ya know?"

How do you all (especially those of you who are deeply invested in the Turks) interpret this line from ACC and how would you use it for closure in FFVII:EC?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Come on, man, seriously? You're holding me accountable? In the first place, whaddaya want me to do? You got some suggestion for how I can 'atone', buddy? 'Cause if you think I'm just gonna lay down in my cold puddle of guilt and die you got another think coming. Like one more death's gonna fix anything. Anyway, I was just following orders, same as everybody else. Yeah, hindsight's twenty-twenty. Meteor, Sephiroth, AVALANCHE being right all along.... None of us saw that shit coming, except maybe Hojo. But they wouldn't let me kill him."

I think Tseng and Rude acknowledge their share of the guilt because they rate their own intelligence highly and feel they ought to have seen the truth. For Rufus, a public acknowledge of responsbility and committment to atoning for Shinra's wrongs is politically convenient, but I think privately he blames his father. Elena wasn't involved long enough to have much in the way of personal guilt; she is defensive because of her emotional attachment to her fellow Turks. I think Reno would feel that raking over the past and allocating blame is basically a waste of time. He's been a pro for so long that he no longer carries grudges or bears resentments; everything is "just business", and he probsbly can't fully understand how essential something like a truth and reconciliation committee would be to help ordinary people find closure and move on.

That was totally my headcanon! But honestly, how sorry does he seem in AC? "Hey Cloud, think about it. We could rebuild Shinra!"
Rufus, later, "Reno, don't you get it? We have to at least pretend to feel remorse."

 

[Shademp]

"Come on, man, seriously? You're holding me accountable? In the first place, whaddaya want me to do? You got some suggestion for how I can 'atone', buddy? 'Cause if you think I'm just gonna lay down in my cold puddle of guilt and die you got another think coming. Like one more death's gonna fix anything. Anyway, I was just following orders, same as everybody else. Yeah, hindsight's twenty-twenty. Meteor, Sephiroth, AVALANCHE being right all along.... None of us saw that shit coming, except maybe Hojo. But they wouldn't let me kill him."

I can see monologues like this being especially useful for the beginning of the game, when newcomers to the franchise need to be familiarized with the events from past titles.

Though this makes me reconsider... Would Denzel really be so calm if he knew what Reno did in Sector 7 and then heard him say "I was just following orders"? Reeve at least acted with humility.
Not saying Denzel would go batshit, but if he learned that Reno truly has no remorse then Denzel would certainly throw an angry glare at him.

Spoiler: Pointless off-topic rant

...Damn it, now nothing makes sense to me anymore. I keep thinking about the fact that one push of a button by Reno caused the deaths of thousands. Then both in OG and in Advent Children, AVALANCHE stands around him without even hinting at a grudge. How can they even be around this guy? Sure, he was just following orders but what does that matter? Ugh, I made the mistake of trying to make FFVII too relatable. Been thinking about this for too many hours now.
For a long time I've been thinking about Reno as a fairly ok guy but now I'm just disgusted by him. The idea of him having no remorse even after OG just makes it more difficult for me to appreciate him, due to the contrast with how I've viewed him thus far. Ok I srsly need a break. S|
If anyone wants to take this up with me please do so via private message or else the "character interpretation" aspect will overshadow the intended "character directions" purpose of the thread.

That was totally my headcanon! But honestly, how sorry does he seem in AC? "Hey Cloud, think about it. We could rebuild Shinra!"

I always interpreted this as Reno not being serious enough and associating Shinra with job opportunities, not remembering that to Cloud Shinra = Evil.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You need to not listen to me, Shadey. Like I said, that was just my headcanon. I didn't mean to make it so convincing. FWIW, the Reno of my imagination (and it IS only my imagination) does feel remorse, but he would never talk about it, except maybe to Rude, because talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words; also, the more people talk about stuff, the less likely they are to get anything done about it, in his opinion. And maybe he sees what he did as truly unforgiveable - so what can you do? Trying to earn forgiveness for the unforgiveable is also a waste of time, so - You just get on with stuff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Spoiler: Pointless off-topic rant

...Damn it, now nothing makes sense to me anymore. I keep thinking about the fact that one push of a button by Reno caused the deaths of thousands. Then both in OG and in Advent Children, AVALANCHE stands around him without even hinting at a grudge. How can they even be around this guy? Sure, he was just following orders but what does that matter? Ugh, I made the mistake of trying to make FFVII too relatable. Been thinking about this for too many hours now.
For a long time I've been thinking about Reno as a fairly ok guy but now I'm just disgusted by him. The idea of him having no remorse even after OG just makes it more difficult for me to appreciate him, due to the contrast with how I've viewed him thus far. Ok I srsly need a break. S|

Spoiler: Pointless off-topic rant

Just to comment...you do realize Cloud and the others have whooped his ass on several occasions and have already settled the score they had to deal with, in regards to Shinra and their Turks. How much more would there need to be done? After all that fighting, anger and finally uniting on a much larger threat that would've ended their world, there comes a point where holding a grudge, and hate just simply becomes too exhausting, useless and unhealthy. That's what was shown in Case of Tifa, Barret, and even in Case of Shinra. There comes a point where you let go and move on. Hating him or whatever wouldn't do shit.

Yeah, Reno said he was following orders, but even now. He clearly acknowledged in ACC, that the ones responsible for bringing the world to the brink was Shinra and what they did. He does feel remorse and realize what they and Shinra did was wrong. So why do you think they're trying to do the opposite. I think you're kinda misinterpreting what Reno thinks. Yeah, he was following orders and that's what he calls it. But he knows that it sucks and would rather make things right than not give a fuck. He's just a Turk through and through. It's all he knows.

I always interpreted this as Reno not being serious enough and associating Shinra with job opportunities, not remembering that to Cloud Shinra = Evil.

I don't think Cloud or the others find Shinra to be evil anymore. That's over with. They've moved on from that. Hell, Shinra's fucking done.

 

[wayfarer]

Just to comment...you do realize Cloud and the others have whooped his ass on several occasions and have already settled the score they had to deal with, in regards to Shinra and their Turks. How much more would there need to be done? After all that fighting, anger and finally uniting on a much larger threat that would've ended their world, there comes a point where holding a grudge, and hate just simply becomes too exhausting, useless and unhealthy. That's what was shown in Case of Tifa, Barret, and even in Case of Shinra. There comes a point where you let go and move on. Hating him or whatever wouldn't do shit.

I think it's pretty clear that no one really likes them. Tifa did the whole "yeah I remember you" thing in AC, but can anyone blame her? Reno's pretty charming But Cloud wasn't pleased to see anyone from Shinra in Advent Children and only after proving their willingness to help him did he tolerate them. In addition, they are COMPLETELY absent from Dirge-- maybe because no one wants them around??

Anyway I had a couple ideas: firstly, if we're really going full force on this Denzel thing and that he's going to make his journey into herodom, I was thinking it would be cool to see him at the start of the game, accidentally set off a chain of events that leads to one of the story's central conflicts. Maybe he isn't entirely responsible, but regardless he feels the guilt and that becomes a sort of sobering, coming-of-age moment.

Also, since I know a good amount of people want it including myself, even though this may very well undermine my first statement I think Reno and Rude should be added as player characters. I honestly don't think Shinra will play a villain role in the next game, they've gone too far in the compilation titles to suddenly devolve and become conniving villains again. Naaaah. Reno and Rude as player characters. Fans want it. It'd be really funny. It would be really fun.

 

[Edley]

Agree with Mako, at the very least we know Tifa's gotten over it. Rufus order put her in a gas chamber and she's giggling at his subordinate Reno on the phone. Their war is over (for now).

I do have a personal head canon where no one ever told Cloud about the whole gas chamber incident. Years later he's sitting at the dinner table and Tifa casually mentions it in conversation. Cloud looks up at her and asks to be excused. He calmly stands up and gets the keys to his motorcycle and drives down to Shinra HQ and walks past the Turks with a smile. He enters Rufus' office and without a word picks him up out of his chair and effortlessly tosses him against a bookshelf. Cloud picks him up and says "Gas Chamber. Asshole." and goes home to finish his dinner.

 

[Unlucky]

Also, since I know a good amount of people want it including myself, even though this may very well undermine my first statement I think Reno and Rude should be added as player characters. I honestly don't think Shinra will play a villain role in the next game, they've gone too far in the compilation titles to suddenly devolve and become conniving villains again. Naaaah. Reno and Rude as player characters. Fans want it. It'd be really funny. It would be really fun.

YES. Reno and Rude must be featured either within the story in a side-mission, or in a mini-game, in which you take down enemies Tenchu style. Better if it's all stealth, and if you bust your cover, you're fucked. Mission ends.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I do have a personal head canon where no one ever told Cloud about the whole gas chamber incident. Years later he's sitting at the dinner table and Tifa casually mentions it in conversation. Cloud looks up at her and asks to be excused. He calmly stands up and gets the keys to his motorcycle and drives down to Shinra HQ and walks past the Turks with a smile. He enters Rufus' office and without a word picks him up out of his chair and effortlessly tosses him against a bookshelf. Cloud picks him up and says "Gas Chamber. Asshole." and goes home to finish his dinner.

I have a personal head canon where I would pay damn good money to see this scene.