ForceStealer
Double Growth
How did you leave out the Jessie chapter in that list 
SPOILERS Characterisation of Midgar in the Remake
- Thread starter LicoriceAllsorts
- Start date
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
FUCKHow did you leave out the Jessie chapter in that list
EDIT: There, now nobody will ever know I failed my waifu.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
That was like my favorite thing about it. Seeing a sleepy residential neighborhood up on the plate. I liked how "surburban" it looked. All the more illusion for the benefit of Midgar's inhabitants.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
The extra sunlight is a direct result of the Plate being 6x higher than it was in the OG. The height of a swimming pool vs. three football fields. Assuming the world map correlates to earth’s hemispheres, the slums would get direct sunlight pretty much all day every day, except for midday during spring and summer, where they would get diffused sunlight.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the slum looneymoon was talking about — if the buildings (most just over 50m tall) had escarpments between them, you wouldn’t see the sun ever.
The trade-off, of course, is that the underside of the plate looks SO EPIC way up there.
I wasn’t thrilled with the designer clothing and perfectly coiffed hair on all the NPCs — particularly the kids. Looking that good takes time and money. It‘s what you get when a rich Italian mogul is your character designer I guess. Loved the overheard dialogue though, the NPC writing was on point throughout the game.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the slum looneymoon was talking about — if the buildings (most just over 50m tall) had escarpments between them, you wouldn’t see the sun ever.
The trade-off, of course, is that the underside of the plate looks SO EPIC way up there.
I wasn’t thrilled with the designer clothing and perfectly coiffed hair on all the NPCs — particularly the kids. Looking that good takes time and money. It‘s what you get when a rich Italian mogul is your character designer I guess. Loved the overheard dialogue though, the NPC writing was on point throughout the game.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
That first view when you walk out of the apartment in the morning in Chapter 3 took my breath away.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Ite, I was a bit confused by your post. Are you saying the brightness of the slums in the Remake is realistic given Midgar's new height, or not?
If the slums get direct daylight practically all day long, why would they need the sunlamps on the underplate? Tifa is really concerned that by turning off the lamps - in the middle of the day - they will plunge the Sector 4 slum into darkness. And why would the loading screens explicitly tell us the slums are "dark"? I think the developers were just a little ambivalent about the impression they wanted to give us.
Shotgun granny really bothers me. How can she have killed lots of Wutai people during the war? She's old - older than Marle. How long ago was this war? According to the timeline on this site, the war broke out in 1991/1992, about 8 years before Crisis Core begins, and maybe 15 years before FFVII begins. Are we to believe that Shinra had fifty-year-old women fighting on the front line in this war? I guess it's not impossible, since they had child soldiers, but it's really unlikely. And I don't think the game writers meant us to believe that Wutai attacked/invaded Midgar and that she was fighting with the Home Guard.
Her story has to be more complicated than that. Maybe she was posted to Wutai, or some other farflung place, because of her own or her husband's work with Shinra? Or even her child's? Maybe she had to pick up a shotgun to defend her family and home - like the British in India, or during MauMau in Kenya?
If the slums get direct daylight practically all day long, why would they need the sunlamps on the underplate? Tifa is really concerned that by turning off the lamps - in the middle of the day - they will plunge the Sector 4 slum into darkness. And why would the loading screens explicitly tell us the slums are "dark"? I think the developers were just a little ambivalent about the impression they wanted to give us.
Shotgun granny really bothers me. How can she have killed lots of Wutai people during the war? She's old - older than Marle. How long ago was this war? According to the timeline on this site, the war broke out in 1991/1992, about 8 years before Crisis Core begins, and maybe 15 years before FFVII begins. Are we to believe that Shinra had fifty-year-old women fighting on the front line in this war? I guess it's not impossible, since they had child soldiers, but it's really unlikely. And I don't think the game writers meant us to believe that Wutai attacked/invaded Midgar and that she was fighting with the Home Guard.
Her story has to be more complicated than that. Maybe she was posted to Wutai, or some other farflung place, because of her own or her husband's work with Shinra? Or even her child's? Maybe she had to pick up a shotgun to defend her family and home - like the British in India, or during MauMau in Kenya?
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Yeah I didn't gather she was necessarily part of the military, just that she had shot Wutai troops before. As you say, probably while living somewhere other than Midgar.
Or she's just crazy, I guess, but I'm more inclined to agree with your suppositions.
And yes I believe Ite was saying that it's realistic that the slums are brighter because the Plate is so much higher. I don't know if they'd actually adhere to Earthly hemispheres and seasons though, it still might just be that you can see the sun in early morning and late evening but in mid day it's obscured all year round.
As for the sun lamps, I got the impression she was referring to the fact that they'd be off during the soon approaching night. I don't think it was the middle of the day anymore by the time you got to that section.
Or she's just crazy, I guess, but I'm more inclined to agree with your suppositions.
And yes I believe Ite was saying that it's realistic that the slums are brighter because the Plate is so much higher. I don't know if they'd actually adhere to Earthly hemispheres and seasons though, it still might just be that you can see the sun in early morning and late evening but in mid day it's obscured all year round.
As for the sun lamps, I got the impression she was referring to the fact that they'd be off during the soon approaching night. I don't think it was the middle of the day anymore by the time you got to that section.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
I am saying that it makes sense.
Oh yeah... woops to them! I should probably be pissed at the inconsistency, but next to the Whispers, I don't have the energy to be mad at those kinds of worldbuillding fuckups.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
No, she's definitely not worried about them being off in the day, but nighttime.
When you're in that dungeon, it is dusk:
The sun lamps keep the slums livably lit at night:
When you're in that dungeon, it is dusk:
The sun lamps keep the slums livably lit at night:
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
If the people of upper Midgar - or we ourselves - don't need huge sunlamps shining on us all night, why would the slum-dwellers?
Also, night is very far away when Avalanche turn off the sunlamps. They set off from Seventh Heaven in the blue light of dawn. After they turn off the lamps, they have time to make their way to the reactor, plant the bomb, run through the reactor facility fighting numerous battles and disarming Airbuster, raid the store room, confront Pres. Shinra, and fight Airbuster. Then Cloud falls into Aerith's church, it's full daylight, and he has time to fight Reno, escort Aerith home the long way, go on numerous quests, pick flowers, and fight Rude, all before dusk.
The developers wanted to fill the slums with light so we could see them, which is fair enough. But they didn't surrender the OG notion that the slums are, in reality, dark and depressing. I think they wanted us to assume that all that apparent daylight came from the sunlamps.
Edited to add: you're suggesting it took them a full day to get to the Sector 4 underplate, and a full night make their way from the sunlamps to the reactor?
Also, night is very far away when Avalanche turn off the sunlamps. They set off from Seventh Heaven in the blue light of dawn. After they turn off the lamps, they have time to make their way to the reactor, plant the bomb, run through the reactor facility fighting numerous battles and disarming Airbuster, raid the store room, confront Pres. Shinra, and fight Airbuster. Then Cloud falls into Aerith's church, it's full daylight, and he has time to fight Reno, escort Aerith home the long way, go on numerous quests, pick flowers, and fight Rude, all before dusk.
The developers wanted to fill the slums with light so we could see them, which is fair enough. But they didn't surrender the OG notion that the slums are, in reality, dark and depressing. I think they wanted us to assume that all that apparent daylight came from the sunlamps.
Edited to add: you're suggesting it took them a full day to get to the Sector 4 underplate, and a full night make their way from the sunlamps to the reactor?
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Nope, reaching the reactor takes all day. The fight with Airbuster is at night. Cloud is waking up in Aerith's church the next morning.
We, and the people of the plate, have the stars and a moon. People have often pointed out how video game nighttimes are far brighter than ACTUAL nighttime (in games like Skyrim or Zelda). The slums at night without overhead lights would be SUPER dark.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Yes, that's wierd, Ody. I'd forgotten it was night when they fought Airbuster. Cloud must have been falling a really long time. Either that, or it was almost dawn.... But why was Aerith in the church at that time? How long was he lying there unconscious?
Having gigantic sunlamps on the underside of your plate to light up the slums at night seems pretty pointless to me. What's wrong with streetlights like the topsiders have? We seem to have gone from a situation where the slums are always in darkness to a situation where they're aways in light - glaring artificial light, all night. Using light to disrupt people's natural sleep patterns is a known torture method. I wonder if that's what's going on here?
Having gigantic sunlamps on the underside of your plate to light up the slums at night seems pretty pointless to me. What's wrong with streetlights like the topsiders have? We seem to have gone from a situation where the slums are always in darkness to a situation where they're aways in light - glaring artificial light, all night. Using light to disrupt people's natural sleep patterns is a known torture method. I wonder if that's what's going on here?
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Why wouldn't she be at the church near dawn? And I would guess he didn't wake IMMEDIATELY upon landing. Maybe an hour?
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
She could be there at any time, I suppose; she does what she likes. Seems kind of dangerous to be wandering alone in the dark, but she's made it clear she's done it before.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I mean, the sunlamps are obviously on during the night portions of the game, just look up. That's how much light they make.
And who would lay the infrastructure for streetlamps in the slums?
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Why pay for a million street lamps when six giant lamps will do?
There are vast expanses of uninhabited wastes with zero lights, and we know things like the chocobo carriages still travel at night, so they need to be able to navigate.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Local slum enterpreneurs would do it.
Are we supposed to believe that Shinra cares for the welfare of the slum dwellers? They have those sunlamps for some less altruistic reason, make no doubt. Perhaps because they can then threaten to turn them off at a moment's notice? But the thing is, people down in the slums have electricity, they have torches, they have lights, they have community action groups and neighbourhood watches; they have everything they need to take the matter of lighting into their own hands. I don't know if you have ever lived in a place where the electricity was regularly turned off and sometimes stayed off for days, but I have. The people of the slums would not passively leave themselves in Shinra's power (literally). They'd take steps to lighten their own world.
A couple of things that happened quite often when we lived in Africa:
- I don't know the technical electrician term, but people would illegally splice into our power line and steal our electricity, so we'd be paying for 3, 4 times what we ourselves consumed. We'd have to hire an electrician to find the splice and disconnect it, but more would always be made.
- we often had power cuts because people were stealing the copper wiring to re-sell - not from our house, but from power lines or even sub-stations. Did they often die in the course of their thievery? Yes.
Are we supposed to believe that Shinra cares for the welfare of the slum dwellers? They have those sunlamps for some less altruistic reason, make no doubt. Perhaps because they can then threaten to turn them off at a moment's notice? But the thing is, people down in the slums have electricity, they have torches, they have lights, they have community action groups and neighbourhood watches; they have everything they need to take the matter of lighting into their own hands. I don't know if you have ever lived in a place where the electricity was regularly turned off and sometimes stayed off for days, but I have. The people of the slums would not passively leave themselves in Shinra's power (literally). They'd take steps to lighten their own world.
A couple of things that happened quite often when we lived in Africa:
- I don't know the technical electrician term, but people would illegally splice into our power line and steal our electricity, so we'd be paying for 3, 4 times what we ourselves consumed. We'd have to hire an electrician to find the splice and disconnect it, but more would always be made.
- we often had power cuts because people were stealing the copper wiring to re-sell - not from our house, but from power lines or even sub-stations. Did they often die in the course of their thievery? Yes.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Perhaps that's precisely what Shinra is trying to avoid. As Odysseus said, it's a pretty cursory thing to just stick some big lamps up (hell the plate already had the WAY BIGGER flood lamps for no real reason) then to try and setup an actual network of street lights. And its also clear they only route JUST enough power to keep them on and don't bother keeping the places up. The sun lamps aren't THAT bright. Just enough to avoid anarchy that could actually cause Shinra problems.
And the slum dwellers do light their abodes and towns, but there's all that space in between that people nonetheless have to travel. And there are monsters to worry about.
And the slum dwellers do light their abodes and towns, but there's all that space in between that people nonetheless have to travel. And there are monsters to worry about.
Last edited:
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I just think that originally Midgar was conceived of as being much darker - shrouded in perpetual twilight the way it is in the OG, where the world map literally grows darker as you approach it. The huge sunlamps on the overplate made sense in that design. Then in the Remake the designers decided to let a lot more light into the city, to enable us to see it in all its glory - but they didn't want to get rid of those iconic huge lamps, and indeed couldn't; Midgar wouldn't be Midgar without them. We're just rationalising things after the fact.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
But how is Aerith's church bathed in sunlight in the original if Midgar is in perpetual night? If the pollution is so thick you can't see the sun, how can you see Meteor and the moon so clearly when the team parachutes in?
The world map darkens to reflect the pollution, but it doesn't become NIGHTTIME. Junon is also always portrayed at dusk because it's thematic and looks nice, but the city isn't ACTUALLY in persistent dusk
The world map darkens to reflect the pollution, but it doesn't become NIGHTTIME. Junon is also always portrayed at dusk because it's thematic and looks nice, but the city isn't ACTUALLY in persistent dusk
Last edited:
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Even in the original, there are plenty of examples of sunlight in midgar:
We just don't usually have the advantage of pointing the camera up.
For the fact we keep talking about how bright Midgar now is, only 6 chapters (3,5,6,8,14,15) out of 18 take plays during daytime, two of which are at dusk and one of which takes place mostly inside train tunnels.
We just don't usually have the advantage of pointing the camera up.
For the fact we keep talking about how bright Midgar now is, only 6 chapters (3,5,6,8,14,15) out of 18 take plays during daytime, two of which are at dusk and one of which takes place mostly inside train tunnels.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Well, isn't Aerith's house an anomaly in a number of ways?
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
Midgar would only be always covered in dusk if there was some kind of perpetual pollution or something like it to block out the sun, since the plate isnt really a dome to block out the light from pretty much everywhere except the top.
And since the Church is illuminated, there is no such pollution. Midgar in the OG is a clear example of the developers forsaking consistency for more of a cool visual and thematic effect, rule of cool, so I wouldnt be surprised. Indeed it was cool, so it worked.
And since the Church is illuminated, there is no such pollution. Midgar in the OG is a clear example of the developers forsaking consistency for more of a cool visual and thematic effect, rule of cool, so I wouldnt be surprised. Indeed it was cool, so it worked.