Civil War II? [Marvel]

[Roger]

So wait like

Spoiler

did they kill off two different Hulks in this series? They for sure Bruce Banner but is She-Hulk really dead as well?

Spoiler

Hulk's dead, Jen's in a coma.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I don't think it's a morals thing, I feel it's a control thing. Tony prefers to be the smartest and wealthiest guy in the room, the prospect of having Ulyssus' visions be the first and last word on what threats the superhero community should respond to and how and when isn't something he can stomach.

Additionally, the only two hero casualties have been

Spoiler

people he was close to, which is putting even more firmly him in a place where he's very emotionally driven to try to understand how Ulysses' power works because he wants to feel that they died for a reason that he believes in and that was inevitable, and not one that he doesn't trust to do the job right and would mean that they died for nothing.

Still not digging this. Still don't think Tony is acting at all like Tony Stark. Would he want to understand how this works? Absolutely. Would he be saying it's not something they should use, much less consider using? Not the slightest chance.

That's a Captain America-type position to take no action on something on the basis of a hope that the writing on the wall is wrong. Tony has always been the pragmatic one who doesn't believe in moral absolutes. Tony's ethics are utilitarian -- he doesn't believe in anything being morally right for its own sake, or that humanity is meant to serve morals. Morals are meant to serve the needs of humanity.

Remember, this is one of the guys who built the bombs to save Earth-616 from the Incursions -- by blowing up other Earths.

Again, this is all VERY different because it's something having a strongly negative impact on him PERSONALLY that is pushing that agenda. Taking the moral high ground for the greater good is something he'd very much be doing if it weren't for the circumstances fucking with him so hard.

Spoiler

He kidnapped Ulysses while he was pretty heavily intoxicated after Rhodey's death.

Also, blowing up other Earths is something that's very "ends justify the means" because it's something that he can do from a distance, it's not Rhodey and Banner being dead in front of him.

X

 

[Roger]

Also, Tony only ever built the bombs, he was not one of the guys that was able to go through with it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He didn't build them for them to not get used.

So wait like

Spoiler

did they kill off two different Hulks in this series? They for sure Bruce Banner but is She-Hulk really dead as well?

Spoiler

Hulk's dead, Jen's in a coma.

Which is a great example of.how poorly this series is being written. Issue #1 explicitly showed

Spoiler

Jen die. They left it to a damn recap blurb in issue #3 to say "Wait, no, she's in a coma!"

And there's also the serious oversight in that no one even considered whether Bruce should be told his cousin is dead (or "in a coma," whichever it is). I get that the Avengers, et. al. may decide against mentioning it because they're already worried about him Hulk-ing out -- but for there to not even be a conversation about it? Lame as hell.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Which is a great example of how poorly this series is being written. Issue #1 explicitly showed

Spoiler

Jen die. They left it to a damn recap blurb in issue #3 to say "Wait, no, she's in a coma!"

And there's also the serious oversight in that no one even considered whether Bruce should be told his cousin is dead (or "in a coma," whichever it is). I get that the Avengers, et. al. may decide against mentioning it because they're already worried about him Hulk-ing out -- but for there to not even be a conversation about it? Lame as hell.

Spoiler: Well...

1) It ended with her flatlining and medical people rushing in to resuscitate her. There wasn't anything that showed her explicitly die.

2) Well, I'd hold off on that judgement, since that would be MUCH more likely to be covered in Totally Awesome Hulk #9 since they just wrapped up a story arc with Amadeus, Bruce, Jen, & everyone meeting up and discussing Banner's non-Hulk condition, and issue #9 is the Civil War II tie-in.
- He's in a hidden lab that he was pretty sure no one was supposed to know about (whose secrecy is covered in T.A.H. #8)

X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Spoiler: That may be so, but ...

The narrative language of someone flatlining while a bunch of medical personnel shout and fuss over them, and the "camera" focuses on another character's pained expression is "This character is dead." Especially when -- in the case of a comic -- you have the next whole issue go by with no mention of anything different, and when the character with the aforementioned pained expression says in that next issue "We've all lost people today."

Sorry to be bringing down the tone of the thread. I just think this is badly written.

Is there anything specific about the story you want to discuss on which I might be able to wax more constructive?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I just like the conflict in and of itself and specifically how it's pushing the three to leave and start the Champions group. It's less the two sides that I like in this more than the conversation and how it's making bigger impacts and affecting the newer heroes.




X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Fair enough. I suppose it's fulfilling that function well enough in that it's giving the younger heroes cause to say "Fuck this shit. Seacrest out, bitches."

That being said, it feels wildly uninspired in that 1) major crossover events with superheroes fighting superheroes are way too played out at this point; 2) Bendis-written crossover events are way too played out at this point (seriously, dude has had his impact; time to shuffle the deck here); and 3) it almost immediately abandons the most interesting question it does pose by giving

Spoiler

Clint a get-out-of-jail-free card on the ethical quandary of executing Banner.

If Bruce asked Clint to do it (how convenient!), it kills any reason for me as the reader to wonder if he did the right thing. For Bruce to have made the call himself, it's less a difficult decision Clint unilaterally made in the heat of the moment and more a "fulfilling Dumbledore's wishes" kind of thing.

EDIT: And on a related note, links illustrating why I can't fucking stand Hawkeye in the comics:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/04/23/abandoned-love-so-is-hawkeye-a-killer-or-what/ (this article really should have also mentioned "Avengers" #502, part of the "Avengers Disassembled" storyline written by Bendis, wherein Hawkeye went to his death while deliberately killing an entire battleship full of Kree soldiers)
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/10-times-hawkeye-ironically-said-superheroes-shouldnt-kill

The Marvel Cinematic Universe's Clint Barton is fucking awesome, but the guy in the 616 is a hypocritical piece of shit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The previews pages released from Marvel today/yesterday for "The Totally Awesome Hulk" #9 (being released next week) totally spoiled the verdict of the trial. The outcome wasn't a surprise in the least, but you have to wonder what somebody was thinking given that they took care with the previews pages for "Civil War II" #4 not to reveal the verdict early.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This story is getting harder to swallow even as this issue (#4) was better than the previous three.

It's nice to see Tony

Spoiler

sharing what he's discovered (even if he's reformed the freakin' Illuminati), but frankly, it's impossible to swallow that he wouldn't want to continue utilizing Ulysses as a potentially useful resource considering that Ulysses's power is basically the sort of thing Tony, Hank McCoy, Reed Richards and T'Challa have always done with their intellects. Especially Tony. He's a self-described futurist who makes predictions, and responds to those predictions accordingly.

That was his whole schtick in the first Superhero Civil War.

Of course, they're having Carol behave stupidly here just to keep some sort of conflict in play. For fuck's sake, she's got teenage Jean Grey on her side since the Extraordinary X-Men are working with her. They asked Jean to read Ulysses's mind -- but not that of the suspected Hydra agent? What the flippin' hell.

They wouldn't even need to detain her! Just have Jean scan her as she's walking away from that bank she works in.

This is some major Plot-Induced Stupidity, made worse by the fact that it doesn't gel with the utilization of resources that was shown prior to this point.

Speaking of stuff shown prior to this point, why are the All-New X-Men even with Tony's side? We've not seen them involved with this mess in any tie-ins the way we've seen Storm and Magneto's teams.

I will say the closest thing to logical going on here is that Storm's team (and Kitty Pryde's team) are with Carol. Not only was Carol essentially a member of the X-Men with these same folks (Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Kitty and Wolverine) during her Binary days, but we actually got to see them working together recently in the X-Men "Civil War II" tie-in. And of course Carol has been a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Still, though, any X-Men favoring the detainment of anyone on the basis of "what they might do" is out of character since that's kind of been the sort of persecution they've always fought against themselves. And since that sort of nonsense was at the heart of the whole conflict in "AvX" not so long ago.

Anyway, this story is annoying because the only reason it can even exist is because the "captains" of both sides can't react to anything (during this storyline anyway) unless it's with an overreaction.

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler: Amadeus Cho callin' Carol out

Hot damn son

But I suppose he would be hard to take out...

 

[Roger]

It's nice to see Tony

Spoiler

sharing what he's discovered (even if he's reformed the freakin' Illuminati), but frankly, it's impossible to swallow that he wouldn't want to continue utilizing Ulysses as a potentially useful resource considering that Ulysses's power is basically the sort of thing Tony, Hank McCoy, Reed Richards and T'Challa have always done with their intellects. Especially Tony. He's a self-described futurist who makes predictions, and responds to those predictions accordingly.

Spoiler

Yeah, Tony's stance doesn't make much sense anymoere given how disappointingly mundane the nature of Ulysses' powers now are.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Really, the mechanic behind it sounds the same as

Spoiler

Amadeus Cho's ability (the "natural ability to identify the variables and quantum possibilities in any situation"), only Ulysses lacks Amadeus's control over and understanding of it. Obviously Amadeus doesn't have the whole projected/experienced vision thing to go with it -- but, again, what we're talking about isn't that fundamentally different.

EDIT: Basically, if Ulysses were to just learn to control his power, he'd be Amadeus with a flashlight and finger puppets.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It does come off more and more as a contrived conflict, but I am still enjoying the ways that it's letting the newer generation shine in their books.




X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I will grant that the backdrop of the whole thing has been good for Amadeus's character.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because no one you demanded it: This craptastic miniseries is getting an additional issue.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Man, for all the ways that this series is painfully floundering in its main event, the impact that it's having on the new generation of heroes has been fucking amazing, heart-rending, and fantastically executed.

All-New Wolverine, Totally Awesome Hulk, Spider-Man, even Guardians of the Galaxy have had their tie-ins to the event and they're amazing, and they FEEL big in all the ways the main series itself hasn't really managed to. Hell, even the X-Men event was somewhat decent.

Overall, this's only solidified how excited I am for Champions and to actually feel like it's the new generation's opportunity to really step up after the literal and figurative mess of CWII.




X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Probably because it mostly involves the new kids, but Civil War II #6 was all-in-all a damn solid issue, and very much the best of the whole thing so far.




X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just read issue #7. Copy-paste my usual gripes about this event here, though I also have to throw in that this issue felt oddly short.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, I just read "Captain Marvel" #10 (the final "Civil War II" tie-in issue), and I don't even know what's going on with this anymore. Carol has acted just as insane in the various tie-ins to this event as she has in the core mini-series -- but here we see her getting past the few doubts she has left about how she's been acting, and it's framed like it's a good thing.

She's also shown deciding that she's going to be worthy of all the respect she gets from regular people, but from issue #1 of "Ultimates 2," we know this whole "predictive justice" thing is about to blow up in her face (probably because of what she did at the end of issue #7 of the core mini-series), and that she's going to be eating some serious crow pretty soon.

So, for hardcore Carol fans following her closely, this period of her publication history can pretty much be summarized as "you see her go down and up, and down and up, and down and up -- and down."

 

[JechtShotMK9]

So, for hardcore Carol fans following her closely, this period of her publication history can pretty much be summarized as "you see her go down and up, and down and up, and down and up -- and down."

That honestly sounds like the character's history in general.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That it does.

It's just happening a lot in a four-to-five-month period.

 

[Tennyo]

So, I just read "Captain Marvel" #10 (the final "Civil War II" tie-in issue), and I don't even know what's going on with this anymore. Carol has acted just as insane in the various tie-ins to this event as she has in the core mini-series -- but here we see her getting past the few doubts she has left about how she's been acting, and it's framed like it's a good thing.

She's also shown deciding that she's going to be worthy of all the respect she gets from regular people, but from issue #1 of "Ultimates 2," we know this whole "predictive justice" thing is about to blow up in her face (probably because of what she did at the end of issue #7 of the core mini-series), and that she's going to be eating some serious crow pretty soon.

So, for hardcore Carol fans following her closely, this period of her publication history can pretty much be summarized as "you see her go down and up, and down and up, and down and up -- and down."

This whole debacle has me all

Like for serious Marvel don't fuck up Carol

 

[JechtShotMK9]

So, I just read "Captain Marvel" #10 (the final "Civil War II" tie-in issue), and I don't even know what's going on with this anymore. Carol has acted just as insane in the various tie-ins to this event as she has in the core mini-series -- but here we see her getting past the few doubts she has left about how she's been acting, and it's framed like it's a good thing.

She's also shown deciding that she's going to be worthy of all the respect she gets from regular people, but from issue #1 of "Ultimates 2," we know this whole "predictive justice" thing is about to blow up in her face (probably because of what she did at the end of issue #7 of the core mini-series), and that she's going to be eating some serious crow pretty soon.

So, for hardcore Carol fans following her closely, this period of her publication history can pretty much be summarized as "you see her go down and up, and down and up, and down and up -- and down."

This whole debacle has me all

Like for serious Marvel don't fuck up Carol

Don't worry, nothing could ever be worse than her "raped and brainwashed by her future alien son" phase.

 

[Tennyo]

Noooooooooo

I had forgotten that that happened

Please no make it go away.