Clean it up

[Lifebond]

Theoretical / Theological Epilogue:
( Open for Comments )

Time. You and I are there now. Life is experience, time is the surf board we ride the different wave lengths. We have faith and magic. They are conflicting in certain situations, creating confusion in the fabric's of our reality.

To be at the end of your time is to soon to be dead. Non existent in the physical form, yet still maintaining life as we clearly see with Aerith and Zack.

If one speaks more than one language. They might know that the infrastructure of languages, in comparison to other's, seem's relatively backwards. Backwards...a very important theme one can use to analyze the society in FF7.

When I ask myself what it means...the word LIFE. I look at both sides of our societal words to find the clues.

( this can be used for the world of FF7 as well )

If one analyzes an object. One knows there is a + and -

+ Light - Dark

Here are my 2 words, my theme I will keep in my fan fiction story.

Light ( love )
or
Dark ( fear )

Light ( future )
or ( now )
Dark ( past )

In the present now, the future and past meet. If one were to analyze this as a map to the several dimensions of reality ( we live in the 'time' dimension ) it paint's a picture.

Magic and faith coming together yet?

Light ( **love )
or
Dark ( **lived )

( **examine these words backwards )

Because what will happen if one chose to get rid of the letters. ( nyuk nyuk nyuk )

If you cast away LOVE then the word EVOLVE can not exist.

And Lived...yes there's the fallen one, Jenova!! Hiding in the shadows.

In regards to Aerith and Zack.

They met the end of their time, yet they still exist. Are they a figment of imagination for our heroes? Or perhaps a controlled projection of the master manipulator?

Can Cloud pierce the darkness, to find out what lies beyond the edge of time?

 

[GiinJoww]

Uhm... I'm not exactly sure of what you're talking about, but given the defining of words I'd just like to point out something to you. All fantasy is saturated with Aryanism, the belief that white/light is positive, good, harmless, enlightened, desirable and that black/dark is negative, bad, destructive, inferior, undesirable.

This is an erroneous doctrine that has influenced many cultures across the world, and for many centuries, which is the reason it's so widespread and "natural" to many cultures. You didn't even think twice about the nature of dark and light because it's second nature to you. Their existing definitions and connotations were sufficient enough for you, but they are not fact, or based off of facts, and are extremely harmful.

The reason I've written this post is to encourage you not to continue with this fantasy/writing trend. To you, to your readers, to society, and to humankind as a whole. I am not saying that you are racist, but this kind of writing is a tactic used in the systematic oppression, psychological warfare, and institutionalized racism against people with dark skin or who identify with the cultures of dark skinned people. I am not saying that you intentionally meant to cause harm, but if you do use Aryanism in your works you will be contributing to the oppressive forces even if you do not wish to be a part of it.

Please, do not use Aryanism in your fanfiction!

 

[Octo]

^I don't think that it's Aryanism or racism or anything like that.

I think its perfectly natural for people to fear the darkness and find comfort in the light - in the dark you can't see hazards, enemies etc. Doesn't matter what culture you are from.

Sure, if you create a character who is black/dark and is automatically portrayed as an evil character - that is where you have problems.

I think you've overreacted GiinJoww.

 

[Fangu]

The reason I've written this post is to encourage you not to continue with this fantasy/writing trend. To you, to your readers, to society, and to humankind as a whole.

Go back to Tumblr. I'm sure that's where you came from.

 

[Octo]

tad harsh there Fangs

 

[Fangu]

Come on, that post is utterly ridiculous. True Tumblerite fanaticism in the works

BUT FINE: Dark/light has fuck all to do with the United States fucked up racial issues. It's rooted in daylight/sun (giving life, necessary for survival) and night time/cold (which one must shelter from). Spend a week somewhere without a house/ electricity and you'll understand right away those olden tales of creatures in the dark.

But I'm not getting into a goddamn Tumblr style argument. Let's just speed things up and save us the time; label me a racist and get over with it. There, I'm a racist. You know nothing about my family, nor my indigenous background, but there. Done.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

The fuck am I even reading in here?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I have no idea, but I'm terribly close to locking this thread already.

 

[GiinJoww]

Woah. I don't know how this jumped to what it is now.

Octo
I understand your point and I agree with it to an extent, but on the subject as a whole I'm going to have to agree to disagree. c; I'm not saying that your points have absolutely no merit, because they certainly do, I'm just saying I disagree because the subject is deeper than that. There's a long history with certain words and concepts in America and in fantasy. I might have overreacted, and I say might because I can see how I overreacted and I can see how I didn't overreact, so I'll just take better care in the future.

Fangu
Uhm... are you okay? xD I hope you were able to calm down a bit. Far from it, I'm not here to argue. I'm not a Tumblerite either. c: As with Octo I am going to agree to disagree with you on the subject for reasons already stated. Neither am I the type of person to label anyone with such a term unless they clearly, expressly, and truly are racist. As you said, I know nothing about you to make such a claim. That would be bigoted and immature of me to do so. I tried to make it clear in my original post that it is not any person or persons that I am talking about but trends and concepts in fantasy.

Pyro
I know what I was talking about, but I don't know what the original post is talking about.

 

[GiinJoww]

Stupid submit button.

Shademp
My apologies, I didn't mean to cause a scene. It wasn't my intent.

 

[Geostigma]

Damn it!

I didnt check my privileges before reading this thread =/

 

[Lex]

In my eyes what you did was turn something that wasn't remotely about race into something about race. I can't actually believe a person would have the reaction you had to the OP.

Worth noting is that most of the people who have posted in response to you are not American, so you might want to consider that non-Americans might just be completely incapable of seeing this the same way you do. I've had this discussion somewhere before but racism/ race discussions go very differently in different cultures, so you need to bear that in mind. Tbh I also find the post ridiculous, but I hope that doesn't offend you. It is what it is and I don't mean to offend by saying so.

That said, there are Americans here who find it equally as batshit as me, Octo and Fangu do so take from that what you will.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I'm all American here, but what I got from the opening post (what I understood of it anyway) is vaguely defined, generic-sounding fantasy tropes.

 

[Ghost X]

Easy way to solve this argument: Giinjoww, citations please .

 

[GiinJoww]

Lex
No, the OP itself was not about race. That is certain. As The Twilight Mexican said in the post below it's the generic fantasy tropes that I was talking about, the etymology of the words themselves, and their historical relationship.

I understand that you find my reaction confusing. I also wasn't aware that the forum was not just based in the US, so I do understand that someone coming from another country wouldn't at all be able to identify with what what I said. Likewise, I can and can't see how you say that the OP had nothing to do about race. Far from it, you have not offended me. No one in this thread has and I'm glad that you all have taken the time to respond to me. I'm not above fault and given how this matter has played out I think there's something that I can learn from this.

It's true that there will be Americans who can't understand what I posted, but when it comes to certain things a lot of Americans either haven't looked into a matter themselves or write the matter off because it's too bothersome or just doesn't make sense in their point of view. A lot, not all Americans, though. That has been my greater experience when talking to Americans about certain matters in depth. Or when I try to explain so they know how I arrived at a certain thought or conclusion at the very least. Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people.

Ghost X
If you're asking me to explain my point of view I can do that, yes, with references to explain how I arrived at my conclusion.

 

[Masamune]

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's true that there will be Americans who can't understand what I posted, but when it comes to certain things a lot of Americans either haven't looked into a matter themselves or write the matter off because it's too bothersome or just doesn't make sense in their point of view. A lot, not all Americans, though. That has been my greater experience when talking to Americans about certain matters in depth. Or when I try to explain so they know how I arrived at a certain thought or conclusion at the very least. Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people.

Oh, I know exactly where you're coming from (I grew up in a Politically Correct area of the US where Whites were the minority) and it's up to it's ears in Political Correctness Gone Mad. The reason why everyone is wondering what you're talking about is because there wasn't anything about race in the OP until you brought it up. Generally speaking, most people don't go looking for racial interpretations of works unless race is specifically brought up in the work itself. It's kinda hard to see things in a work when they simply aren't there in the first place.

And yeah, this forum is based in Europe. It makes for some great cultural comparisons.

 

[Ghost X]

Yes, I am saying references to support your argument would be good, but first I want to be clear with what you're actually arguing.

If you're simply saying that it is bad to associate light with goodness and darkness with evil because of its effects on non-white folk, despite these concepts not having origins in racism, okay, no citations needed, and good luck with that. It is a similar argument to saying people shouldn't write bad BDSM fiction because people might use it as a manual and hurt themselves, and that sexual and violent video games shouldn't be made due to an extreme minority of already-disturbed individuals citing them as a source of inspiration for their criminal behaviour. As with the whole issue of people being unable to separate fantasy from reality, the solution is actually not to ban such material, but rather to educate the uninformed, and to have a better-funded mental health system .

However, if you're saying these concepts do have origins in racism, then that is where I require citations, because that flies in the face of my understandings of reality . Non-white cultures, before they even encountered white cultures, made these light and dark associations all by themselves. With that said, rather than it being about race, in a lot of cultures there's a recognition of the life-giving properties of the sun and the dangers of night.

And yeah, there are members from around the world here. Not just the USA and Europe . It is a good thing, having different perspectives, and putting your ideas up for scrutiny. It helps shatter echo chambers, corrects flawed theories of knowledge, and leads us all on a path to Reason (). No one should really be shouting you down for what you said, unless you use ad hominems and start trolling .

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I encourage a discussion of the topic, absolutely. I do think it's unlikely that there is a legitimate origin for the light-dark/good-evil dichotomy to be found in racism (perhaps an association has been made by dickheads at times somewhere down the line; that wouldn't surprise me), but I really don't think the concept itself comes out of racist leanings.

I'm open to being educated otherwise, however.

 

[Octo]

@Ghost. I love you.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah, I encourage a discussion of the topic, absolutely. I do think it's unlikely that there is a legitimate origin for the light-dark/good-evil dichotomy to be found in racism (perhaps an association has been made by dickheads at times somewhere down the line; that wouldn't surprise me), but I really don't think the concept itself comes out of racist leanings.

I'm open to being educated otherwise, however.

It's much older than racism and exists in cultures that doesn't really have a concept of racism. Also, the dichotomy between light and dark is not so strictly good/evil as is being implied. For example, in Graeco-Roman culture there were many chthonic cults which associated darkness with the underworld, and also with germination and fertility, eg. The Eleusinian cult of Demeter and Persephone. Many ressurrection cults (the cult of Cybele; Mithras, Christianity) require the protagonist to spend a period of time "dead" underground before returning to the light; their time underground in the darkness enables them to achieve their true identity., In other words, there can be no enlightenment without that creative darkness. It's like ying/yang.

Done.

 

[Skan]

I won't pretend to be well-versed at all in "racism," but even in Graeco-Roman culture, you have quite a bit of Otherness, no? Which seems to me to be the root of racism (in addition to other -isms).

But further adding to Lic's post, you can go back even farther than Classical times (and outside of the west): the Netherworld in Sumerian sources is described as a place of darkness, gloom, and dust, where the dead are dressed in feathers -- I really wish I knew wtf that was about -- in contrast to the world above, which is filled with sunlight.

(There's a whole interesting mythology surrounding the sun and the Netherworld, actually. The Mesopotamian sun-god is also a god of the Netherworld. While he travels across the sky during the day, come night-time, he dips down below the horizon into the Netherworld, where he becomes dim, covered by the earth. While he's in the Netherworld, he functions as a god of judgment, passing judgment on the dead with the help of a few other gods... when day approaches, he rises from the eastern horizon and is fanned back to blazing glory by a wind and brings forth the future -- i.e the new day -- which is thought to incubate in the Netherworld.

If interested, some articles: Steinkeller's "Of Stars and Men," Heimpel's "The Sun at Night and the Doors of Heaven," and maybe Wood's "At the Edge of the World: Cosmological Conceptions of the Eastern Horizon.")

Anyways, of more immediate interest: the most basic color distinction you'll find in early cultures is that between bright and dark. (The next color to receive a name is often "red," for obvious reasons. For a summary of relevant literature: Deutcher's "Through the Language Glass.") While I understand the desire to not always revert back to more naturalistic explanations, I think it's absolutely right in this case. Bright connotes visibility, the knowable, while darkness connotes invisibility, the unknowable, and therefore fear.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, the Greeks coined the word xenophobia, but fear of the "other" (and at the same time, a fascination with "the other") is pretty universal, I think. If one were to call that racism, one would be broadening the definition of racism so much as to make it useless in talking about 21st century societies.

As far as I know, Greek xenophobia wasn't based on skin-colour but on the language you spoke; strangers were "barbarians" because they didn't speak proper Greek; they spoke in a "baa-baa" language. Alexnader the Great was considered to be only sem-civilised by the citizens of the Greek city-states because his mother tongue was, I believe, Macedonian. The Greeks also had a lot of respect for the Egyptians as a culture older than their own. As for the Romans, skin-colour was no bar to citizenship or to any post in the Empire. It just wasn't an issue. Certain ethnic groups, such as the Jews, were known for being trouble-makers, but the Romans were not racist on principle. Once they got the idea into their heads that anybody could be a citizen of Rome, they didn't make ethnic distinctions.

 

[Cabaret]

Leaving the privilege checking aside, I assume from the thread title you wanted feedback on your epilogue?

I was following it well until you started going on about the meaning of life, I think your ideas are not well expressed in a context that is easy to digest to the reader. You go from rather nice prose to bullet points. I think it would be cooler to express your ideas about love, light, fear and darkness in a metaphor, like you did referring to the map (Eg we all have a choice to walk cowering in the shade or to stride in the open sunlight... or something). Then it would flow better for the reader IMO.

As for all the other bullshit, internets eh?

Theoretical / Theological Epilogue:
( Open for Comments )

Time. You and I are there now. Life is experience, time is the surf board we ride the different wave lengths. We have faith and magic. They are conflicting in certain situations, creating confusion in the fabric's of our reality.

To be at the end of your time is to soon to be dead. Non existent in the physical form, yet still maintaining life as we clearly see with Aerith and Zack.

If one speaks more than one language. They might know that the infrastructure of languages, in comparison to other's, seem's relatively backwards. Backwards...a very important theme one can use to analyze the society in FF7.

When I ask myself what it means...the word LIFE. I look at both sides of our societal words to find the clues.

( this can be used for the world of FF7 as well )

If one analyzes an object. One knows there is a + and -

+ Light - Dark

Here are my 2 words, my theme I will keep in my fan fiction story.

Light ( love )
or
Dark ( fear )

Light ( future )
or ( now )
Dark ( past )

In the present now, the future and past meet. If one were to analyze this as a map to the several dimensions of reality ( we live in the 'time' dimension ) it paint's a picture.

Magic and faith coming together yet?

Light ( **love )
or
Dark ( **lived )

( **examine these words backwards )

Because what will happen if one chose to get rid of the letters. ( nyuk nyuk nyuk )

If you cast away LOVE then the word EVOLVE can not exist.

And Lived...yes there's the fallen one, Jenova!! Hiding in the shadows.

In regards to Aerith and Zack.

They met the end of their time, yet they still exist. Are they a figment of imagination for our heroes? Or perhaps a controlled projection of the master manipulator?

Can Cloud pierce the darkness, to find out what lies beyond the edge of time?