Cloud and Angst

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Cloud gets a lot of flack for being mopey and depressed in AC. Why exactly is that? He has some pretty legitimate reasons for it. When you think about it, the guy has been through a lot of traumatic stuff -he gives his all trying to protect things, and repeatedly has to watch them be utterly demolished. Given his placement, he seems to have tried to protect his Mom from Sephiroth, and utterly fails. One by one, the things he cares about are destroyed in front of him. He's helpless to protect Zack, Aeris, his village, or his Mom. Spent five years as a labrat (under Hojo), and his attempt to save the world almost ends up destroying it. He almost kills Aeris with his own hands, tries to take in an orphan, and then discovers that he has to watch that orphan die of a terminal disease. Then he finds out he himself is dying. Any one of those events would break a lot of people. So why the hate?
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Because half that stuff didn't have to happen - they engineered it that way because they think the audience related to angsty shitrag cloud better. (theres a quote from someone saying as much) The frustration at that writing descision is channeled through cloud.

I don't think anyone was expecting Cloud to be 100% fine, but I think they overdid it with the angsty stuff. Like, did Cloud learn nothing in the OG? When he finds his true self with Tifa's help and then the next thing he can't even fucking talk to her about anything - how did it get that bad?

I dunno, off at a tangent but I was thinking the other day about how I've never really seen a truly realistic depiction of depression - not as I experience it myself - because nobody would really empathise/like/understand that character. You'd just think 'why is this stupid mopey cunt being a stupid mopey cunt? The answers are obvious!' I think that when I watch stuff, and I know what it's like to be depressed, but it doesn't really make for a good/engaging story.

So I dunno I guess Cloud is pretty close to what real depression is like, he knows what he has to do but he can't fucking do it.

But like, unless you're really into Ken Loach films or something, it's not what you really want in a sci-fi/fantasy story.

I mean, Luke Skywalker has plenty to be fucking depressed about too. His dad is fucking dead, his aunt and uncle were murdered, the girl he was trying to get off with turned out to be his sister Yoda and Obi Wan died too. He has a stupid haircut.

Now I don't even know if he's going to be involved in these new SW films, but it would suck balls if the plot revolved around him being miserable as fuck and acting in an unheroic manner wouldn't it?

/rambling
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I guess it's a bit like the backlash Korra got in the second season of LoK because of some writing decisions due to nick only greenlighting another season at the last minute.

What I don't get is why so many people clung to it like he's always been that way.
 

Airling

Ninja-Fairy-Jedi-Princess
I'm fine with him being mopey and sad. I'm sad Zack died too.

What I am frustrated about is that he just foffs without saying anything, leaving Tifa with the kids, and leave them all worried about him.
 

Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
While I think he has some good reasons, half of those reasons were present in the end of the game and he wasn't acting angsty at all. I think it all boils down to what was cool at the time. The broken hero is much easier to love and want to understand than a super cool and confident badass. I mean when you first start the original game your met with this cocky douchbag that thinks he knows everything but you eventually find out that's not him at all and you learn with the character through the depression and angst and back through the other side as a relatively mentally there individual.. Which is fine if it remains a solo game but adding a sequel and he needed to be knocked back a peg or to to watch him grow again.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I dunno, off at a tangent but I was thinking the other day about how I've never really seen a truly realistic depiction of depression - not as I experience it myself - because nobody would really empathise/like/understand that character. You'd just think 'why is this stupid mopey cunt being a stupid mopey cunt? The answers are obvious!' I think that when I watch stuff, and I know what it's like to be depressed, but it doesn't really make for a good/engaging story.

So I dunno I guess Cloud is pretty close to what real depression is like, he knows what he has to do but he can't fucking do it.


What a...fronthanded insult? Is that the opposite of a backhanded compliment? haha
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
So he's just taking the fall for people pissed at the writers? I mean, he's not perfect, but I think the lack of confidence is fairly understandable.
 

Wolfhart

embraces her dreams
AKA
Monik XIII
I believe his depression has something to do with Geostigma too... Isn't it one of the symptoms?
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
It's unclear whether Geostigma causes depression in its victims or is more likely to hit people who already have it.

As for Cloud taking the fall for bad writing, that's a pretty common occurrence, like what I usually see from the Sonic fandom when complaining about characters, as well as my previous example.
 

Lex

Administrator
I'm one of those people who tends to take media for what it is, maybe experience it a couple of times and then start to form an opinion.

So with that in mind, Cloud being angsty didn't actually bother me until I realised that he was portrayed that way for what I deem to be cheap reasons. Maybe I'm slow, but it took me a lot of reading other perspectives and interviews with the writers and realising how out of touch SE are to actually come to that conclusion, and I'm the same with most media. I don't really realise how I feel about something until a good chunk of time after I've experienced it.

I actually don't think he deserves the crap he gets from fandoms tbh. In FFVII he's a cool character that's a bit of an asshole and then I really started to bond with him when you realise he's always been the insecure loner kid who in a strange way found some false confidence. I've got a lot of respect for the character. This makes Advent Children all the more annoying, because that guy just isn't there. I understand his depression, and I understand why he was so sombre. But he pushes the boundary of y so serious. Literally living on the hilltop of seriousville. To be fair I think the rest of the characters were actually quite close to their VII incarnations in retrospect, but that's just not the Cloud I bonded with. And that's my problem with it.

Having said that, I think this is the first time I've ever publicly complained about his character before. The only reason I don't spend time talking about how much I like him is because there's a barrage of hatred against him because of his angst in AC (from vii fans) and because he's a popular character (from "vi is the best shut up" fans).
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
And the funny thing is that if fanfiction is to be believed a lot of the fandom likes to portray him like he was in AC even if the story is set after it, which is absurd. If I don't like a character's portrayal I usually get mad at the writers for not doing it right rather than at the characters.
 
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Since AC was my first introduction to FFVII, it's hard for me to imagine how fans of the OG must have felt when they saw what Square did to him in the film. I don't like his face in AC, tbh, but then I don't like Reno's either; they're both too pretty, and so is Vincent really. I don't have a problem with Cloud being depressed in FFVII; it makes a lot of sense and I think is true to the experience that many real life vets have. Even without the geostigma, nothing in his life was ever going to have the passion and excitement and camaraderie of his days travelling the Planet in pursuit of Sephiroth. It wouldn't be at all surprising if he felt aimless and rootless and began to wonder what the point of his life was now. He's never even really had a proper chance to mourn the death of his mother or all the other people he knew who died in Nibelheim.

IIRC geostigma finds it easier to get a foothold in people who are depressed and kills those who lapse into despair or give up on life, which I guess is why it hadn't killed Rufus by the time AC opened.

For my money, the big difference between "real Cloud" in the OG and AC Cloud is that real Cloud was not quite so parsimonious with his speech - but if he really is supposed to be depressed in AC, he may find it takes an incredible effort just to hold a few minutes of a normal conversation.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I think a lot of the backlash could have been avoided if AC began with a concrete, on-screen reason for Cloud to lose confidence in himself. Something as simple as losing a fight and someone he cares about getting hurt. It was poor storytelling to start AC off with him being depressed out of the blue, when the entire resolution to FF7 was built around him resolving his confidence issues. It's hard to swallow "I can't protect my loved ones" when the last time we saw Cloud he was leaping across crumbling rocks to save Tifa without breaking a sweat. And it felt like all that character development was just thrown in the trash to justify another once-and-for-all battle with Sephiroth.

As for the angst, that didn't bother me so much as running out on his family. That is what ruined Cloud for me. Maybe ACC did a better job of justifying it (can't remember anymore).
 

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
This issue really gets to me, so I'll try to explain it as concisely as I can. The general opinion of other fandoms, people with only limited knowledge of the game, or those with exposure to only the expanded franchise, is that Cloud naturally suffers from depression and is just your typical moody and brooding closed-off individual. A dime a dozen amongst the zeitgeist explosion of teen angst constructs over the years, and which Squall himself brilliantly capitalises on. But this couldn't be farther from the truth, and I place the blame fully on S-E for this large misperception and misrepresentation of what is a great and complex character.

That construct is not the Cloud from VII that I experienced. It is just one side of the character, and yet, S-E seem determined to have Cloud trapped forever in full-on moody 'teen angst' mode. It is easy to see why people have such a misplaced view of the character. Just take a look at any of his appearances post VII in games like Kingdom Hearts and Tactics - all based on this angsty 'I've got to find her and make amends' tagline. Newer appearances aren't any better either, with his thoughts in Theatrhythm remaining locked forever in this stasis of failing Aeris. Again, this is not the Cloud from VII that I experienced.

I don't think anyone was expecting Cloud to be 100% fine, but I think they overdid it with the angsty stuff. Like, did Cloud learn nothing in the OG? When he finds his true self with Tifa's help and then the next thing he can't even fucking talk to her about anything - how did it get that bad?

In FFVII he's a cool character that's a bit of an asshole and then I really started to bond with him when you realise he's always been the insecure loner kid who in a strange way found some false confidence. I've got a lot of respect for the character. This makes Advent Children all the more annoying, because that guy just isn't there. I understand his depression, and I understand why he was so sombre. But he pushes the boundary of why so serious. Literally living on the hilltop of seriousville.

Octo and Lex sum it up pretty perfectly here. The entire scenario just feels completely (and overly) engineered, and it makes it all the more sadder as I personally feel that Cloud resonated with me most fully as a character because he had so much depth and scope. And yet, it's like they have ignored Cloud's entire character arc and development. After all the issues that he personally faced, Cloud found himself - his true self - and broke the cycle of confusion, depression and uncertainty. It was a brilliant and crucial moment in the game (and an important statement on life itself), and yet, this has just been swept constantly under the carpet since then to trap him back into 'brood / angst mode'.

He might pretend to be the stoic, hard as nails super soldier, but in the end, he's really just the guy that says ... "All right everyone ... let's mosey."

I love this quote that I just had to grab from another board, it sums up Cloud's true nature quickly and precisely. That is the Cloud that I know and experienced. S-E might have him forever 'searching' for Aeris (that is what I was always call her damn it! :P ) and to atone for his supposed sins, but I'll be forever searching and waiting for the real Cloud that I experienced.



This is something that is definitely high up one of my many list of things to do - to either write or make a video piece of why Cloud just isn't a one note angst fest.
 

Airling

Ninja-Fairy-Jedi-Princess
Just take a look at any of his appearances post VII in games like Kingdom Hearts and Tactics - all based on this angsty 'I've got to find her and make amends' tagline. Newer appearances aren't any better either, with his thoughts in Theatrhythm remaining locked forever in this stasis of failing Aeris. Again, this is not the Cloud from VII that I experienced.
Yeah see, that gets to me. I can perfectly understand his sadness and lack of get-up-and-go in AC. Edge had been built, life was going back to normal, and he finally had time to think the events over. To realise Aeris had died, his mom had died, Zack had died, all of them while he was there was there and could technically have done something to save them. But he couldn't. And then he found out he was dying too, thus failing his bro, so eh.

But everywhere else? Really?
 

futurestoryteller

Lv. 25 Adventurer
"Damn! Again! Stop sayin' it like a wimp! Can't you say 'Move out!' or somethin'?" This is the line I think of whenever people talk about him like an angsty teenager. Not the actual "Let's mosey" part, that other people focus on. Because Cid really chastises him for being a bit of a dork. You can tell Barret he looks like a Bear wearing a marshmallow and Cloud loves to be cocky in his first mission. He's a pretty well rounded character. In fact, the reason FF7 is so enduring is because they are ALL very well rounded carefully written characters. Cloud had identity issues, which lead to a lot of confusion about himself along with... other influences, he had a lot of doubt. But again, they all expressed degrees of doubt. Just because he wasn't a typical leader doesn't make him cold.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
But this couldn't be farther from the truth, and I place the blame fully on S-E for this large misperception and misrepresentation of what is a great and complex character.

I find it strange when people say that the source material misrepresents the character. A source material cannot misrepresent the character. Fanart, fanficiton, etc., can. But the source material can't. They are canon. They are Cloud. That's like saying Cloud misrepresents himself (which I suppose you could try saying, but then again...).

As for the whole whinging thing, yeah, I think most people (like myself), would have swallowed another angsty Cloud if they'd done more to support it in the story of AC. I don't like Cloud's character, never did (I didn't recover from his initial asshole-ish-ness, no matter how plausible), but I thought they did a decent job of exploring the depth of his character in OG. AC was just fucking fanservice. Delicious fanservice, but fanservice all the same.
 

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
I find it strange when people say that the source material misrepresents the character. A source material cannot misrepresent the character. Fanart, fanficiton, etc., can. But the source material can't. They are canon. They are Cloud. That's like saying Cloud misrepresents himself (which I suppose you could try saying, but then again...).

I'm not sure that I completely understand your point here. I never said that the source material (i.e the original game) misrepresented the character, or that Cloud never was depressed. I'm stating that S-E have taken only one side of that source material, one trait that Cloud experienced in his life, and ran away with that in everything since. That's not Cloud, that's just one aspect of his persona which has misrepresented him as a whole.

And subsequent material following on from the source material, whether it's canon or not, can misrepresent a character, so yeah, I'm not sure I understood your meaning here.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I don't find Cloud's depression in AC to be unreasonable or a regression of his character. I agree that it's tiresome in Kingdom Hearts and in Dissidia 012 due to what the creators have said regarding the "Cloud that the fans want." But taking the Compilation's portrayal of Cloud in a vacuum, it doesn't bother me.

On the Way to a Smile (especially the Case of Tifa and some of Denzel) essentially got rid of any doubts I had about Cloud's characterization. That story clearly displays Cloud's descent from End-of-game-Cloud to Depressed-Cloud. He starts out smiling at and with Tifa and Barret. Quietly correcting Barret's boisterous orders to the construction workers (a scene that exudes the character humor I love in FF7). Acting as a father/elder brother for both Marlene and Denzel with involvement, not detachment. It isn't until the combination of Elmyra's continuous orders of flowers to Aerith's grave, his inability to find a cure for Denzel, and finally, his own contraction of the disease that he backslides. It's a gradual progression and provides, as Octo alluded to, a lot more justification than I'm usually told that sufferers of depression have.

Remember that those comments about the Cloud that the fans want were made by Kitase and Nomura and such. Nojima writes the movie and the stories, and I think the story is more than competently told my him. Whether Kitase et. al. told Nojima to make Cloud depressed and Nojima is skilled enough to make it work, or Nojima just wrote what he wrote and Kitase et. al. are saying those things in a response to what he wrote is irrelevant and doesn't speak to the quality of the work.

The movie should have done a better job of showing this progression, and not made OTWTS required reading, yes (and ACC made an attempt, I think). It's unfortunate that the way he is in AC/C have now dominated the public perception of him as a Squall-type character when he is not. And it's also perfectly fine if you simply would have preferred to have confident/put-together Cloud in the movie. But how people suggest that it undoes Cloud's development in VII is strange to me. Especially considering, again, how easy it is to backslide into depression (I'm told, never having suffered from it) WITHOUT contracting an incurable, terminal disease as thanks for saving the world.

I've said before that if they make a post-DoC sequel and Cloud's depressed again, then I will call bullshits. But Cloud seemed perfectly fine in his small role in DC, complete with cocky sarcastic banter with Vincent, he was also perfectly pleasant in Crisis Core outside the moments that he was already established as being depressed, aforementioned scenes in OTWTAS, and even moments like his smirk while kicking Kadaj's ass. Cloud's characterization makes sense in the Compilation, and it's not AC's fault that Kitase and friends made dumb comments.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
I'm not sure that I completely understand your point here. I never said that the source material (i.e the original game) misrepresented the character, or that Cloud never was depressed. I'm stating that S-E have taken only one side of that source material, one trait that Cloud experienced in his life, and ran away with that in everything since. That's not Cloud, that's just one aspect of his persona which has misrepresented him as a whole.

And subsequent material following on from the source material, whether it's canon or not, can misrepresent a character, so yeah, I'm not sure I understood your meaning here.

A writer cannot misinterpret their own writing. That's like saying a person misinterprets their own opinion. They can make a character into something you don't believe they are, but in the end, they are that character, because they are the ones who created them. Anything the creator makes is canon, and canon is the definition of said character. You, and others, may not like what they did with Cloud's character (and I agree, it's fucked up), but they did not misrepresent him, simply because they can't.

I might complain how some characters are portrayed by their authors, but I don't claim to understand the character better than the creator. Like it or not, whatever SE brings out on Cloud IS Cloud.
 

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
A writer cannot misinterpret their own writing. That's like saying a person misinterprets their own opinion. They can make a character into something you don't believe they are, but in the end, they are that character, because they are the ones who created them. Anything the creator makes is canon, and canon is the definition of said character. You, and others, may not like what they did with Cloud's character (and I agree, it's fucked up), but they did not misrepresent him, simply because they can't.

I might complain how some characters are portrayed by their authors, but I don't claim to understand the character better than the creator. Like it or not, whatever SE brings out on Cloud IS Cloud.

I could not disagree with these statements more. When a writer returns to a subject matter years later, they can definitely misinterpret their original vision and intentions on what they have constructed. This is a situation that gets even more murkier when you have a team or a company behind that, further diluting that original vision.

Is it still canon? Of course it is. We are not - at all - debating the canonicity of AC Cloud, or his various other guises. We are debating that 'angst Cloud' is not the forefront persona of the character as he was originally depicted, regardless of what the company has attempted to imply after the original game.

It is like Reeves suddenly having this mystical ability to move objects with his mind. Is it canon? Well, yes, since it comes from an official source, but it is also a big misrepresentation of the original character, his story, and events witnessed in the original game.
 
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