Cloud and swordsmanship

[MasterMoogle]

Is it just me, or is Cloud really bad at using a sword? His fight against Sephiroth was damn embarrassing. Who taught him how to use a sword?

 

[Lestat]

Have you played any of the games?

 

[MasterMoogle]

Have you played any of the games?

Yes.

You're probably trying to make a point about how these are fantasy games, and actual displays of skill that make sense in the real world do not apply in Final Fantasy games in general, but I was only speaking in relative terms. Relative to Sephiroth that is.

Real world examples of good swordmanship aren't necessarily relevant to this conversation. If Sephiroth is the example for good swordsmanship that all other swordfighters in the ff7 universe ought to be compared to, then by that metric Cloud sucks.

 

[oty]

Did you play the original? Because that's what he was talking about (I think)

Spoiler: spoilers for OG

Cloud is meant to suck. He isnt a SOLDIER, never learned how to be one.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Did you play the original? Because that's what he was talking about (I think)

Spoiler: spoilers for OG

Cloud is meant to suck. He isnt a SOLDIER, never learned how to be one.

I know that, but I was never sure to what extent he inherited his skills from Zack. I'm also curious whether they'll incorporate that into Remake sequels(assuming Zack returns) and show how much more technically skilled Zack is, or whether he'll just fight exactly like Cloud.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Heh... this is brought up in the CC Word Guide. About how for someone who never had much sword training, Cloud managed to keep using large swords very well out of nowhere. Particularly how he just picks up the Buster Sword with no training what-so-ever and managed to surprise Sephiroth of all people with it! And all of that was before he ever was messed with by Hojo.

Cloud’s Skill with Greatswords

As a regular member of the Shinra Army, Cloud’s standard armament in this game is an automatic rifle, but as demonstrated in Scene 08-19 where he impaled Sephiroth with the Buster Sword he is adept at wielding greatswords. He appears to have had some grounding in using swords, and there is also a scene in “BC” where he fights back against an elite AVALANCHE unit with a large sword.

It's far more likely that Sephiroth being there is really messing with his head, as Cloud is shown to be very good with a greatsword in the entire rest of the game. No one ever acts like he's bad with them... quite the opposite.

 

[Lestat]

It's explained in the OG
It's explained in before crisis in more depth.
It's explained in cc just for more emphasis.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Heh... this is brought up in the CC Word Guide. About how for someone who never had much sword training, Cloud managed to keep using large swords very well out of nowhere. Particularly how he just picks up the Buster Sword with no training what-so-ever and managed to surprise Sephiroth of all people with it! And all of that was before he ever was messed with by Hojo.

His surprise attack on Sephiroth took no skill at all. That doesn't count.

It's far more likely that Sephiroth being there is really messing with his head, as Cloud is shown to be very good with a greatsword in the entire rest of the game. No one ever acts like he's bad with them... quite the opposite.

As for the final scene from the Remake, he looked like he was giving it his all. I doubt his mental state was affecting his performance.

I think it's more likely that all Cloud's opponents were crap compared to Sephiroth, and only when we got to see Cloud face off against Sephiroth did the gap in their skill truly show. It's hard to judge skill without knowing what the best look like with a sword.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I think it's important to remember that there are more than two levels of skill a swordsman can have. It's not just skilled and unskilled. It's entirely possible for swordsman one to be a skilled fighter, but still be nowhere near as skilled as swordsman two. That's what we're seeing with Cloud and Sephiroth at the end. Cloud is good, he knows what he's doing. Sephiroth just happens to have more experience, speed, and power.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think this is a matter of referencing the original game or Cloud not being a genuine SOLDIER.

Sephiroth is simply that much better than Cloud and everyone else.

The new confrontation Cloud had with Sephiroth technically happens to the equivalent of the beginning of disc 1 in the OG. It is meant to showcase the sheer gap of skill and power that exists between Cloud and Sephiroth. Remember, Cloud only has limit break skills up to Braver, Cross-slash, Blade Beam and Climhazzard. Cloud's not even at half his full power and growth.

Compare to the fight Cloud had with Sephiroth in AC. While Sephiroth was still in control, Cloud put up way more of a skillful fight and not simply a child trying to playfight an adult. The fact is, Cloud is not even close to the full level of power we've seen him demonstrate before. This Cloud is at the beginning of his journey and hasn't even come close to realizing his full strength.

It should be noted however that this level of power Cloud demonstrates here is already at least the same as Zack's, a skilled 1st Class. Cloud isn't weak, Sephiroth is just that superior.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I don't think this is a matter of referencing the original game or Cloud not being a genuine SOLDIER.

Sephiroth is simply that much better than Cloud and everyone else.

The new confrontation Cloud had with Sephiroth technically happens to the equivalent of the beginning of disc 1 in the OG. It is meant to showcase the sheer gap of skill and power that exists between Cloud and Sephiroth. Remember, Cloud only has limit break skills up to Braver, Cross-slash, Blade Beam and Climhazzard. Cloud's not even at half his full power and growth.

Compare to the fight Cloud had with Sephiroth in AC. While Sephiroth was still in control, Cloud put up way more of a skillful fight and not simply a child trying to playfight an adult. The fact is, Cloud is not even close to the full level of power we've seen him demonstrate before. This Cloud is at the beginning of his journey and hasn't even come close to realizing his full strength.

It should be noted however that this level of power Cloud demonstrates here is already at least the same as Zack's, a skilled 1st Class. Cloud isn't weak, Sephiroth is just that superior.

Zack beat both Genesis and Angeal. I don't think this Cloud could compete with CC Zack. Cloud from AC probably could fight CC Zack and probably win, but not the one in the Remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud's moves and actions are at least on the same level of prowess Zack's done before. I'd argue higher given what we see. Between his limits like Ascension, the building cutting, his motorcycle fighting, his easy decimation of 3rd Classes and his easily apparent superhuman skills....

From another perspective, Cloud's at the beginning of his journey and already demonstrating this level of skill... This is why he's able to beat Sephiroth when Seph drops his guard. And not just try and fail.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Cloud's moves and actions are at least on the same level of prowess Zack's done before. I'd argue higher given what we see. Between his limits like Ascension, the building cutting, his motorcycle fighting, his easy decimation of 3rd Classes and his easily apparent superhuman skills....

From another perspective, Cloud's at the beginning of his journey and already demonstrating this level of skill... This is why he's able to beat Sephiroth when Seph drops his guard. And not just try and fail.

- Ascension is probably a weaker version of the Octaslash. A limit Zack had already mastered in CC.

- You're ignoring the fact that Roche(3rd class) also has many of those abilities, meaning many of those feats are nothing special. This means that Zack probably could do all those things by the time he was 15(he died when he was 23). You're not honestly suggesting that despite beating both Genesis and Angeal, Zack wasn't as good as Roche? And keep in mind, Cloud STRUGGLED against Roche.

- The reason Cloud was able to get the jump on Sephiroth in the Mt.Nibel reactor was because Zack equipped "Pre-emptive Materia" onto his buster sword, which gave Cloud the first strike. As ridiculous as that sounds, that's the canon reason.

 

[1stclassasshole]

Spoiler: (speculative ending spoilers)

There are theories being thrown around about the remake Sephiroth being the post-AC Sephiroth and for a fair few reasons, so consider that next time you watch Cloud try to proto-omnislash that bitch near the end

 

[Makoeyes987]

- Ascension is probably a weaker version of the Octaslash. A limit Zack had already mastered in CC.

Are we looking at the same Ascension? Octoslash is 8 sword slashes on a single target that ends in a final downward vertical slash.

Ascension is a 8 sword strikes that can hit a single or group of targets which ends with a violent impalement on a target, that then concludes with Cloud soaring several meters into the air, bisecting the target or at least violently slashing them in 2.

Those are only comparable in number of hits. Not technique. That move isn't equivalent to Octoslash which is a single target move that focuses only on cutting.

Sephiroth's version, the original version, is far more brutal.

- You're ignoring the fact that Roche(3rd class) also has many of those abilities, meaning many of those feats are nothing special. This means that Zack probably could do all those things by the time he was 15(he died when he was 23). You're not honestly suggesting that despite beating both Genesis and Angeal, Zack wasn't as good as Roche? And keep in mind, Cloud STRUGGLED against Roche.

What version of Roche is this? Cause he sure didn't appear in the Remake. Roche demonstrated nothing close to those actions or abilities. He was a weaker Loz in terms of motorbike fighting skills and Cloud summarily bodied him.

Then in one-to-one combat, he was summarily defeated as well. There is zero evidence Roche is capable of anything like Cloud.

And that is a huge assumption based on zero actual evidence regarding Zack being able to fight like that. That never happened. He knows how to drive one but that's it.

- The reason Cloud was able to get the jump on Sephiroth in the Mt.Nibel reactor was because Zack equipped "Pre-emptive Materia" onto his buster sword, which gave Cloud the first strike. As ridiculous as that sounds, that's the canon reason.

.... Where did you hear that? Thats a joke. I literally have heard that joke before from other people on Discord but never from someone using that point seriously. We have zero evidence that the Pre-emptive materia had anything to do with it. There's never been any canon confirmation or evidence that was it's purpose or use at all.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Are we looking at the same Ascension? Octoslash is 8 sword slashes on a single target that ends in a final downward vertical slash.

Ascension is a 8 sword strikes that can hit a single or group of targets which ends with a violent impalement on a target, that then concludes with Cloud soaring several meters into the air, bisecting the target or at least violently slashing them in 2.

Those are only comparable in number of hits. Not technique. That move isn't equivalent to Octoslash which is a single target move that focuses only on cutting.

Sephiroth's version, the original version, is far more brutal.

This is pedantic. What exactly is stopping Zack from using Ascension? And if Ascension is so good, why isn't Sephiroth using it?

What version of Roche is this? Cause he sure didn't appear in the Remake. Roche demonstrated nothing close to those actions or abilities. He was a weaker Loz in terms of motorbike fighting skills and Cloud summarily bodied him.

Then in one-to-one combat, he was summarily defeated as well. There is zero evidence Roche is capable of anything like Cloud.

And that is a huge assumption based on zero actual evidence regarding Zack being able to fight like that. That never happened. He knows how to drive one but that's it.

Dude, this argument is ridiculous. Zack trained under and beat Angeal and Genesis. End of story. Just because we haven't seen Zack do certain things doesn't mean he was never capable of it.

Meanwhile, Cloud was STRUGGLING against Roche. At a certain point you just have to accept that you're wrong.

.... Where did you hear that? Thats a joke. I literally have heard that joke before from other people on Discord but never from someone using that point seriously. We have zero evidence that the Pre-emptive materia had anything to do with it. There's never been any canon confirmation or evidence that was it's purpose or use at all.

It's called canon. You clearly don't understand cinematography. There was no other reason to even mention the materia.

 

[LNK]

This is pedantic. What exactly is stopping Zack from using Ascension? And if Ascension is so good, why isn't Sephiroth using it?



Dude, this argument is ridiculous. Zack trained under and beat Angeal and Genesis. End of story. Just because we haven't seen Zack do certain things doesn't mean he was never capable of it.

Meanwhile, Cloud was STRUGGLING against Roche. At a certain point you just have to accept that you're wrong.



It's called canon. You clearly don't understand cinematography. There was no other reason to even mention the materia.

I agree with you that Cloud isn't as good as Zack yet. But where did you get the info that Cloud used preemptive materia to kill Sephiroth?

 

[MasterMoogle]

I agree with you that Cloud isn't as good as Zack yet. But where did you get the info that Cloud used preemptive materia to kill Sephiroth?

Zack mentions it before the Nibelheim event in the OG, during a flashback. There are some conversations about it: http://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/72756488

 

[Odysseus]

No he doesn't, that's clearly just a theory that poster is positing. All Zack ever mentions is getting "New materia," he never says what they are.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is pedantic. What exactly is stopping Zack from using Ascension? And if Ascension is so good, why isn't Sephiroth using it?

..What's to stop him?

That's not Zack's skill. You can't just arbitrarily attribute another character's actions/abilities to another

That's not pedantic, it's simply the reality that exists in their differentiation. Ascension is Cloud's limit break and we're witnessing it and it's difference. And Sephiroth has his own ability, Octoslash, so why would he need to copy anyone else's abilities in the first place? Furthermore, Seph's Octoslash is far more lethal and brutal than Zack's variant just by the nature of Sephiroth being Sephiroth.

Dude, this argument is ridiculous. Zack trained under and beat Angeal and Genesis. End of story. Just because we haven't seen Zack do certain things doesn't mean he was never capable of it.

Zack beating Angeal and Genesis means what exactly? Angeal wanted to be killed and he was beaten as a monster, Angeal Penance. You're making a false equivalence of SOLDIER skill, out of a monster fight. Zack fought his former mentor while he was in the throes of despair and metamorphosed into a centaur-like thing. Genesis was beaten as a Lifestream imbued mutated monster and then summarily beaten upon leaving that form cured but exhausted. This wasn't an exam of SOLDIER fitnesss, it was a battle between a SOLDIER 1st Class and ironically, monsters.

Meanwhile, Cloud was STRUGGLING against Roche. At a certain point you just have to accept that you're wrong.

Again, what version of the Remake are you playing here? Cloud at no point struggled against Roche. Roche's bike attacks were summarily beaten back with ease to the point Cloud was able to leap off his bike, let Jessie steer, leap onto Roche's bike, disabled his engine, leapt BACK to his own bike, and proceed with his mission without breaking a sweat. All while defending 3 people. Roche was embarrassed and humbled, hence why he wanted "a second dance."

He then summarily lost in one-on-one combat, on the ground with Cloud looking none the worst for wear, and Roche having to bow out due to his defeat. Cloud even asks him if he was satisfied since he was still ready to go. There was no "struggle" unless you mean the struggle for Cloud to not crack a smile at his antics or something.

It's called canon. You clearly don't understand cinematography. There was no other reason to even mention the materia.

... That's not canon, that's literally the opposite actually. That's your own subjective interpretation of a gameplay mechanic seen once only in the vague recollections of a character with a fabricated memory. Nothing at all within the story or commentary ever mentions that materia as having any part or purpose in Cloud's sneaking upon Sephiroth. It could easily have just been a fabrication of Cloud's fautly/fantastical memory. Zack certainly didn't have just 1 materia equipped when he was a SOLDIER back then. He had an arsenal. Furthermore, as seen in plenty of other instances, pre-emptive materia is not necessary to.. sneak up on someone or stab them. People can sneak up on others without the need for materia.

In no telling of the Nibelheim Incident is Pre-emptive materia ever mentioned or acknowledged as the reason for Cloud getting the drop on Sephiroth.

 

[MasterMoogle]

No he doesn't, that's clearly just a theory that poster is positing. All Zack ever mentions is getting "New materia," he never says what they are.

Wrong. Play the game. You're accusing several people of hallucinating that detail?

Why do you take issue with the fact that Cloud wasn't sneaky enough to be able to almost finish off Sephiroth without materia?

 

[Odysseus]

Right. Stop making things up. Here's the actual script straight from the game file that I have:

Sephiroth
“Settle down.”

{CLOUD}
“They gave me some new Materia.”
{NEW PAGE}
“I can't wait to use it.”

Sephiroth
“…Just like a kid.”

And that's the end of the discussion on materia. Why don't you try playing the game some time?

 

[null]

I had to look this up. There's a few boss fights where preemptive actually does work. Including Jenova fucking Birth (what a jobber).

Anyway, Sephiroth is wanking around in a Jesus Christ pose when Cloud stabs him. Why would Cloud need materia for that?

Also just re-watched the CC version and Seph is completely focused on Jenova. Did the materia make him do that?

 

[LNK]

Fast forward to 2 min. @Odysseus is right

 

[MasterMoogle]

..What's to stop him?
That's not Zack's skill. You can't just arbitrarily attribute another character's actions/abilities to another

You didn't understand the question. You're making the argument that the difference between them is skill and ability. I'm asking what's to stop Zack from using Ascension? It's a hypothetical question.

And you're ignoring the fact that Zack's special ability is to copy the abilities of others. Play Crisis Core, and you'll see Zack using Aerith's Healing Wind.

Anyways, your argument makes more sense as a criticism of his creativity. Not his skill.

That's not pedantic, it's simply the reality that exists in their differentiation. Ascension is Cloud's limit break an we're witnessing it and it's difference. And Sephiroth has his own ability, Octoslash, so why would he need to copy anyone else's abilities in the first place? Furthermore, Seph's Octoslash is far more lethal and brutal than Zack's variant just by the nature of Sephiroth being Sephiroth.

You created an arbitrary metric to measure limit breaks just so you could make Zack's look worse. If you're gonna use such broken logic, based purely on perceptual preference, then I could easily counter with the assertion that Barret's Catastrophe is better than Cloud's Ascension because a giant laser is more powerful than a bunch of chicken scratches from an oversized sword.

These games already use their own metric for measuring the strength of an ability. It's called DAMAGE.

Zack beating Angeal and Genesis means what? Angeal wanted to be beaten and he was beaten as a monster, Angeal Penance. You're making a false equivalence of SOLDIER skill out of a monster fight. Zack fought his former mentor while he was in the throes of despair and metamorphosed into a centaur-like thing. Genesis was beaten as a Lifestream imbued mutated monster and then summarily beaten upon leaving that form cured but exhausted. This wasn't a test, it was a battle between a SOLDIER and ironically, monsters.

Zack fought Genesis multiple times, and beat him multiple times, both as a monster and as a person.

Again, what version of the Remake are you playing here? Cloud at no point struggled against Roche. Roche's bike attacks were summarily beaten back with ease to the point Cloud was able to leap off his bike, let Jessie steer, leap onto Roche's bike, disabled his engine, leapt BACK to his own bike, and proceed with his mission without breaking a sweat. All while defending 3 people. Roche was embarrassed and humbled, hence why he wanted "a second dance."

So you one-shotted Roche? Did you beat him in ten sword swings? Did you beat him in twenty? Did you beat him without suffering any damage?

Would Sephiroth one-shot him? Beat him without taking damage?

Without a visual representation of skill, such as a cutscene, the best metric we can use for determining skill during a boss fight is by comparing how much damage you do versus how much damage you take.

He then summarily lost in one-on-one combat, on the ground with Cloud looking none the worst for wear, and Roche having to bow out due to his defeat. Cloud even asks him if he was satisfied since he was still ready to go. There was no "struggle" unless you mean the struggle for Cloud to not crack a smile at his antics or something.

Again, this visual metric you're using only works in a cutscene. How much damage did you take during that fight?

... That's not canon, that's literally the opposite actually. That's your own subjective interpretation. Nothing at all within the story or commentary ever mentions that materia as having any part or purpose in Cloud's sneaking upon Sephiroth. It could easily have just been a fabrication of Cloud's fautly/fantastical memory. Zack certainly didn't have just 1 materia equipped when he was a SOLDIER back then. He had an arsenal.

Oh stop:

It's a basic rule of storytelling. And guess what, sometimes good storytelling doesn't hold your hand and tell you anything.

Furthermore, as seen in plenty of other instances, pre-emptive materia is not necessary to.. sneak up on someone or stab them. People can sneak up on others without the need for materia.

So then why'd you mention it if it required no skill at all to sneak up on Sephiroth and backstab him?

Fast forward to 2 min. @Odysseus is right

Wrong. Check the materia menu.

Right. Stop making things up. Here's the actual script straight from the game file that I have:

Sephiroth
“Settle down.”

{CLOUD}
“They gave me some new Materia.”
{NEW PAGE}
“I can't wait to use it.”

Sephiroth
“…Just like a kid.”

And that's the end of the discussion on materia. Why don't you try playing the game some time?

Did you check the materia menu during that flashback?

I had to look this up. There's a few boss fights where preemptive actually does work. Including Jenova fucking Birth (what a jobber).

Anyway, Sephiroth is wanking around in a Jesus Christ pose when Cloud stabs him. Why would Cloud need materia for that?

Also just re-watched the CC version and Seph is completely focused on Jenova. Did the materia make him do that?

Agreed, however:

From another perspective, Cloud's at the beginning of his journey and already demonstrating this level of skill... This is why he's able to beat Sephiroth when Seph drops his guard. And not just try and fail.