Cloud's memories Jenova and Tifa

[Excite]

SPOILER: IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME OR HAVE NO IDEA WHAT FVII IS ABOUT THEN DON'T READ THIS!

Hello,

I read in an article that when Cloud met Tifa for the first time in years, he was still under the influence of mako poisoning, but when he saw Tifa, his Jenova cells due to Jenova being able to mimick she (Jenova) built his memories up from Tifa's memories and Clouds memories and thus creating a new personality for Cloud. Does this mean that it was Jenova who controlled/created the Cloud we know from the game and that his personality weren't really him? Or does it mean something else?

Would Cloud have been able to recover without the Jenova cells? What really happens when someone is MP? Are you not able to recover without Jenova cells?

 

[Zealkin]

Through disk one and disk two, Cloud was not completely himself no. As for the other questions I'm not quite sure, I'm sure other people here are more knowledgeable about Cloud's state of mind/body than I am, there have been discussions about it.

 

[Excite]

Is it his personality or is it the memories who change? I mean is it Jenova who controlls him until Mideel or is he himself but with mixed up memories of the past? Can a normal human recover from MP with time?

Why didn't Tifa get MP when she fell down in the lifestream with Cloud? Do Clouds Jenova cells ever go away?

Btw, Is there any threads on how Cloud manage to throw Sepiroth down the mako reactor? Would he have survived the stab without Jenova?

 

[Zealkin]

It's both, he fabircated his own personality with what he thought a soldier was and should be and combined it with the stories Zack told him. When he met Tifa at the train station he copied the memories she had of them, but he wasn't complete, she fixes him up in the lifestream though. Here"s his ultimania profile if you haven't seen it already, it sheds some light on it.
http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/

Hm about the stab, it's hard to say, in bc it looks like sephiroth hit a vital, so he might not have survived without the experimentation. And i have no idea how he managed that honestly, it kind of reminded me of shounen manga, that if you remember what you're fighting for and believe in yourself you can do crazy shit, but i don't know.

You can check this part of the forum to see if other threads answered your question I guess? http://thelifestream.net/forums/for...1&pp=25&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

 

[Celes Chere]

Here's some useful quotes for you from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona

Compilation Check

The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”

At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident”). Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion.

What Cloud Inherited from Zack

Under the effect of Jenova’s cells, Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona

His personality changed, but his memories were simply hidden away. Once he gets mako poisoned (AGAIN) in Mideel he's completely lost. If we go by what Maiden says, Aerith is the one that protects Tifa from getting mako poisoned. I don't believe Cloud could have regained his true self without Tifa's help. He's subconscious mind was locked away and Tifa went through each piece and put them back together again. His memories are still there, they just aren't functioning.

 

[Ite]

Is it his personality or is it the memories who change?

That's one of the more fascinating questions of FFVII, and one of its core themes. The game doesn't give you the answer, it asks you to answer it for yourself. Who are we when our past changes? What parts of us are latent, dormant, and intrinsic to us, and what is just made up of what we think we are?

Why didn't Tifa get MP when she fell down in the lifestream with Cloud?

This I have no idea about. I assume it is because Tifa had already been exposed to so much mako throughout her life, in the caves of Mount Nibel, the Whirlwind Maze, etc. but again, the game doesn't offer any answers.

Do Clouds Jenova cells ever go away?

The compilation seems to imply that no, they're in there for good, which is why Sephiroth is able to come back potentially forever.

 

[Lord Noctis]

The compilation seems to imply that no, they're in there for good, which is why Sephiroth is able to come back potentially forever.

Not quite true. The end of AC/C in addition to DOC strongly imply that Cloud lost his J-Cells at the same time he was cured f Geostigma, although the strength he got from said cells remains.

 

[Excite]

Here's some useful quotes for you from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:






His personality changed, but his memories were simply hidden away. Once he gets mako poisoned (AGAIN) in Mideel he's completely lost. If we go by what Maiden says, Aerith is the one that protects Tifa from getting mako poisoned. I don't believe Cloud could have regained his true self without Tifa's help. He's subconscious mind was locked away and Tifa went through each piece and put them back together again. His memories are still there, they just aren't functioning.

Did he have some ounce of himself left or was it completely Jenova who controlled him? I mean do Cloud have some bits of his personality left and is able to free himself from Jenova or is the Cloud that we know really just controlled by Jenova from the way he talks and the way he thinks 100%? In the forgotten city he is able to withstand the power of Jenova and not killing Aeris, this must mean that he is in fact able to ignore or at least resist and thus having a own personality and self?

I always thought that he was himself and that the flashes and voices he hear were Jenova, but instead it's the opposite?

In game you don't really notice a difference in him except from him opening up, and a wierd thing is that if he were "created" from his and Zacks memories, why were he such a cold-hearted guy? Zack were the complete opposite of that.

How does one really get rid of MP? In Cloud's case it was Jenova the first time and Tifa the second, but what would've happened if they didn't fall down in the lifestream or Cloud didn't have the cells in him?

The compilation seems to imply that no, they're in there for good, which is why Sephiroth is able to come back potentially forever.

Well Sepiroth is in fact in the Case of Lifestream saying that as long as Cloud lives he will be able to come back, does this mean despite Midnight Rider saying that the cells go away that they in fact are permanent?

How come the cells are still there in the end of FVII but in Mideel he found himself again? I mean shouldn't Jenova influence on him still be there?

I still think it's wierd how Cloud was able to throw Sepiroth in the Mako Reactor even if he was caught be suprise, he had a sword in him but was able to kill the most powerful living being at that time? Maybe he could have made it in to Soldier if he belived in himself?

 

[Octo]

In game you don't really notice a difference in him except from him opening up, and a wierd thing is that if he were "created" from his and Zacks memories, why were he such a cold-hearted guy? Zack were the complete opposite of that.

I think it wasn't just Zack that Cloud took influence from, I think there were elements of Sephiroth too. Even in the OG its clear that Zack is a nice 'good guy' kind of soldier. So I think it was some sort of composite of Clouds 'ideal' self, the guy that 15 year old Cloud wanted to be while he was busy puking up in the back of trucks.

I could be wrong though

 

[Celes Chere]

Obviously he still had pieces of himself left. He was able to act on his own, sometimes it got the best of him like when he held his sword to Aerith. Then he stopped and said "What are you making me do"
And also Cloud has his true self speak to him throughout the game in his head so, yeah. Cloud is still himself but he's acting out a fake persona which I'm guessing makes him a lot more vulernable to Jenova's control sometimes.

Cloud wasn't completely morphed into Zack. He took some of Zack's mannerisms and took his memories and some of his phrases and charm. But it's not like he became Zack or anything like that. Zack is just a large portion of it.

 

[Excite]

Still think it's confusing, how much was Cloud and how much was Jenova? Was the only reason he joined Avalanche because of Jenova's cell pushing him towards Sepiroth or did he make a consious decision? When people say he were controlled by Jenova I'm reading it as if he was completely made up by Jenova and everything was an act and thus 'fake'. Isn't Jenova more or less latent in his cells and not active?

Another thing that's wierd is that you die if you get pierced by a sword but not if you fall several hundred metres down through a church roof ^^

How come Sepiroth weren't able to get out of the lifestream when he jumped down? Cloud was able to.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud's persona was based off of Tifa's memories, Cloud's perception of how he wanted to be, and Zack's recollection of events. Those three elements created a false, composite persona and history that the Jenova cells used as a base to create a psyche for Cloud to use. Cloud was originally a Mako Poisoned puppet, who more than likely would've become a Sephiroth Copy had Tifa's memories, Zack's memories, and the sliver of Cloud's self consciousness not been latched onto to create a workable illusion for Cloud to get back up onto.

Cloud was "Cloud" in the sense that he could work off of this false identity and be a functioning human being, but the whole element of chasing Sephiroth was....his intent, but also constructed by the Jenova cell persona as a means of having him "choose" to get closer to Sephiroth so that Reunion could take place. Cloud was making the decision, but he never knew he was on the end of Sephiroth's strings from the get go.

Sephiroth didn't make it out of the Lifestream due to the massive injuries he suffered being impaled from behind by the Buster Sword and then flung into the wall and then into the hot, concentrated Mako Energy of the reactor. Cloud got out of the Lifestream thanks to Tifa's help and not being gravely injured while he fell into it.

 

[Excite]

Cloud's persona was based off of Tifa's memories, Cloud's perception of how he wanted to be, and Zack's recollection of events. Those three elements created a false, composite persona and history that the Jenova cells used as a base to create a psyche for Cloud to use. Cloud was originally a Mako Poisoned puppet, who more than likely would've become a Sephiroth Copy had Tifa's memories, Zack's memories, and the sliver of Cloud's self consciousness not been latched onto to create a workable illusion for Cloud to get back up onto.

Cloud was "Cloud" in the sense that he could work off of this false identity and be a functioning human being, but the whole element of chasing Sephiroth was....his intent, but also constructed by the Jenova cell persona as a means of having him "choose" to get closer to Sephiroth so that Reunion could take place. Cloud was making the decision, but he never knew he was on the end of Sephiroth's strings from the get go.

Sephiroth didn't make it out of the Lifestream due to the massive injuries he suffered being impaled from behind by the Buster Sword and then flung into the wall and then into the hot, concentrated Mako Energy of the reactor. Cloud got out of the Lifestream thanks to Tifa's help and not being gravely injured while he fell into it.

In the game isn't the only one impaled Cloud, and Sepiroth is unharmed? Pretty strange that he managed to take him on if that's so, then he should have been able to get into SOLDIER.

So without Tifa he probably would've been like the caped men? Can one get rid of mako poisoning with medical help in a hospital or similar?

Did he get rid of the Jenova Cells in the end of AC?

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you remember, Cloud stabbed Sephiroth from behind while he admired Jenova in its cylindrical container and was impaled. Cloud didn't make it into SOLDIER because he was too mentally weak to stand up to the Mako Infusion.

And yes, without Tifa, he probably would've been a Sephiroth Copy. And if you remember FFVII, the doctor in Mideel states that Mako Poisoning only can be cured on one's own. Ther person just has to...wake up from it.

Cloud's Jenova cells are gone, thanks to the Geostigma being cured by Aerith.

 

[Excite]

If you remember, Cloud stabbed Sephiroth from behind while he admired Jenova in its cylindrical container and was impaled. Cloud didn't make it into SOLDIER because he was too mentally weak to stand up to the Mako Infusion.

And yes, without Tifa, he probably would've been a Sephiroth Copy. And if you remember FFVII, the doctor in Mideel states that Mako Poisoning only can be cured on one's own. Ther person just has to...wake up from it.

Cloud's Jenova cells are gone, thanks to the Geostigma being cured by Aerith.

Thank you for clearing things up for me.

 

[Shademp]

Cloud's Jenova cells are gone, thanks to the Geostigma being cured by Aerith.

I can see the reasoning behind this, but I won't feel 100% confident that all of his Jenova cells are gone unless I can find an official quote that states this. Is this mentioned anywhere in the Reunion Files?
*would check myself now but I'm off to work*

 

[Edley]

Kinda piggy-backing on this, at what point did Sephiroth lose his humanity? Being born a fusion of human and jenova cells he wasn't ever 100% human, but after he gets crystallized in TLS is there anything human left of him?

 

[Lord Noctis]

Kinda piggy-backing on this, at what point did Sephiroth lose his humanity? Being born a fusion of human and jenova cells he wasn't ever 100% human, but after he gets crystallized in TLS is their anything human left of him?

The body he has by the end of FFVII is more or less his original body having been reconstructed, so there were still human elements to it.

By AC/C however he is comprised entirely of Jenova Cells and Negative Lifestream, so any human aspect of himself s gone.

Not that it really matters since he largely stopped identifying himself as a human during/after Nibelheim.

 

[Excite]

The body he has by the end of FFVII is more or less his original body having been reconstructed, so there were still human elements to it.

By AC/C however he is comprised entirely of Jenova Cells and Negative Lifestream, so any human aspect of himself s gone.

Not that it really matters since he largely stopped identifying himself as a human during/after Nibelheim.

His concious is human I think and that's what's left of him in the lifestream. About the whole Jenova cell thing, he does state in the Case of Lifestream that until Cloud dies he can comeback if I'm not mistaken.

Btw, is it the 'complete' Sephiroth that Cloud fights in AC or is it just a weakened version? Did Cloud die in the end but was resurrected?

I've come across the fight that Cloud and Sephiroth had in FVII was a mental one? How did that happen? How could they have a mental fight? What happened to Sephiroth?

I know I'm asking things that doesn't really fit in here but I can't resist. How come the reunion could take place without Cloud's cell merging with Sephiroth?

 

[Lord Noctis]

His concious is human I think and that's what's left of him in the lifestream. About the whole Jenova cell thing, he does state in the Case of Lifestream that until Cloud dies he can comeback if I'm not mistaken.

Btw, is it the 'complete' Sephiroth that Cloud fights in AC or is it just a weakened version? Did Cloud die in the end but was resurrected?

I've come across the fight that Cloud and Sephiroth had in FVII was a mental one? How did that happen? How could they have a mental fight? What happened to Sephiroth?

I know I'm asking things that doesn't really fit in here but I can't resist. How come the reunion could take place without Cloud's cell merging with Sephiroth?

No, by FFVII Sephiroth's cnciousness has transcended human limits due to absorbing all the knowledge of the lifestream in addition to effectively merging with Jenova, which is how he survived.

The Sephiroth Cloud fights in AC/C is the strongest form Sephiroth has ever taken according to Word of God. He is comprised entirely of J-cells and negative lifestream, and has an entire negative lifestream at his control. He has more or less achieved his goals from the first game, just not on as large or as grand a scale.

The fight between Cloud and Sephiroth in FFVII is mental, and is largely possible because of the link that exists between them due to Jenova's Cells.

The reunion could occur without Cloud's cells merging with Sephiroth's probably because Sephiroth didn't wnat Cloud's cells. He wanted to degrade CLoud, to make Cloud feel like nothing. He refused to asign any purpose beyond that of a puppet to CLoud. Besides that the amount of cells present in CLoud probably wasn't large enough to make any real difference.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can see the reasoning behind this, but I won't feel 100% confident that all of his Jenova cells are gone unless I can find an official quote that states this. Is this mentioned anywhere in the Reunion Files?
*would check myself now but I'm off to work*

No, not this. Don't...please.

Geostigma is caused by the Jenova cells in a person's body becoming malignant and the body overworking its immune system trying to destroy them. Here, read the definition of it from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Geostigma

「 AC 」

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.

Aerith's rain cured Geostigma, meaning..it destroyed the Jenova cells that were causing the body to overtax itself in attempting to purge out the cells.

Those who didn't get cured by Aerith's rain still carry Jenova cells, but due to Sephiroth being destroyed, they no longer suffer the ill effects of Geostigma. Meaning they're just carriers. The Negative Lifestream is gone.

 

[Shademp]

Then the body becomes overworked because of an overflow of Jenova cells, mixed with Sephiroth's will. One would not need to remove all the cells in order to cure a victim of Geostigma.
Cloud is also a special case due to being a 'Sephiroth Copy'; his body is intimately tied with Jenova cells in a way that Geostigma victims probably aren't. For this reason, I see the possibility that Aerith's rain did not seep into every molecule of Cloud's body and purge him from all remnants of Hojo's experiments.

Again, I see your reasoning. But it seems odd then that no official source would state clearly that "Cloud is cured of Geostigma and thusly purged of all Jenova cells forever, ending his legacy as a Sephiroth Copy", since that would be kind of important.

I'm sorry if this upsets you Mako, but I will stay on the "undecided" camp here until I find the official statement I am looking for.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then the body becomes overworked because of an overflow of Jenova cells, mixed with Sephiroth's will. One would not need to remove all the cells in order to cure a victim of Geostigma.
Cloud is also a special case due to being a 'Sephiroth Copy'; his body is intimately tied with Jenova cells in a way that Geostigma victims probably aren't. For this reason, I see the possibility that Aerith's rain did not seep into every molecule of Cloud's body and purge him from all remnants of Hojo's experiments.

How do you "cure a will?" Sephiroth's will is his personal desire from his mind. He willed the Jenova cells to become destructive, and harm people. Just like he "willed" the headless Jenova body in the Shinra Building to wake up, kill people, and escape. Sephiroth willed the Jenova cells to become harmful, thereby killing victims via Geostigma and powering up his Negative Lifestream.

If Aerith's cure was only a matter of removing Sephiroth's will, how was Cloud cured of Geostigma before he confronted a fully revived Sephiroth in AC? He specifically states "Your Geostigma's gone... That's too bad." If the Jenova cells were still part of Cloud's body and somehow "removed of his will", he could easily just will those cells with his mind/spirit to become malignant again, thereby reinfecting Cloud with Geostigma. If destroying the will that made the Jenova cells dangerous was the only way to stop Geostigma, it would only have been cured with the defeat/death of Sephiroth. But as shown by Aerith curing Cloud BEFORE his confrontation with Sephiroth, it's clearly cured by removing the biological element completely. Not to mention that S-E states that the real main issue behind its biological cause is the Jenova cells themselves. If you don't have Jenova in you, you can't get Geostigma.

Cloud was injected with Jenova Cells as a Sephiroth Copy but he isn't like Sephiroth, where he literally HAS Jenova DNA mixed into his actual genetic makeup. He was born completely human and had alien cellular matter introduced into his body via injection. By magical means, that foreign substance has been purged by his body.

Again, I see your reasoning. But it seems odd then that no official source would state clearly that "Cloud is cured of Geostigma and thusly purged of all Jenova cells forever, ending his legacy as a Sephiroth Copy", since that would be kind of important.

I just gave you an official source. It said that Geostigma is basically caused by Jenova cells harming the body, and in AC we learn that the reasons the Jenova cells are somehow malignant now, is thanks to Sephiroth's evil will working from the Lifestream.

We see in AC Aerith cures Geostigma. And then in DC we see that those who suffered from Geostigma and were not in Edge, still carry the cells but aren't dying or sick from it anymore. Because...Sephiroth is no longer around.

I don't know why every piece of plot or fact has to be parsed in a guidebook or something, when by just simple observation or connection, the answer is just obvious. There's no ambiguity or confusion about how Geostigma is cured. Aerith's holy water purged the foreign and evil substance from the people of Edge suffering from Geostigma. It's cured.

I'm sorry if this upsets you Mako, but I will stay on the "undecided" camp here until I find the official statement I am looking for.

Then you're gonna stay undecided forever because no such statement exists or will ever exist. Certain obvious elements are just not going to be stated. You're not going to find an official statement that says "Bugenhagen died and Red XIII didn't tell everyone because he found the pain too hard to bear at that time." Or "Marlene sensed Aerith's presence during the ending of FFVII due to Aerith having a special bond with children." It's just...kinda obviously shown/stated.

 

[Excite]

In the Case of Lifestream Sephiroth tells us he can come back as long as Cloud is alive, though this was before his final fight with Cloud. Any thoughts? Is he really dead now or is his will still alive? What happened to the cells of Jenova after AC?

 

[Shademp]

If Aerith's cure was only a matter of removing Sephiroth's will, how was Cloud cured of Geostigma before he confronted a fully revived Sephiroth in AC? He specifically states "Your Geostigma's gone... That's too bad." If the Jenova cells were still part of Cloud's body and somehow "removed of his will", he could easily just will those cells with his mind/spirit to become malignant again, thereby reinfecting Cloud with Geostigma.

Unless of course he is free from such influences at that point, as the Jenova cells still remaining are not many/strong enough to reawaken the Geostigma.
This is of course merely speculation and I agree that most likely you are correct.

Then you're gonna stay undecided forever because no such statement exists or will ever exist. Certain obvious elements are just not going to be stated. You're not going to find an official statement that says "Bugenhagen died and Red XIII didn't tell everyone because he found the pain too hard to bear at that time." Or "Marlene sensed Aerith's presence during the ending of FFVII due to Aerith having a special bond with children." It's just...kinda obviously shown/stated.

May so be it. With 99% likelihood you are correct, yes. But I still can't shake that last percentage of uncertainty as Nojima could still easily write it so the cells Hojo injected in him are more deeply embedded in his body (in a way that it is not in normal Geostigma victims) and that they alone are not enough to cause Geostigma. So until I find that official statement, I'm going to remain 1% uncertain.