I don't really get the physics of the movie. Cloud isn't killed by a sword in the chest, but a bullet does the trick? The same in FVII where Cloud stabs Sephiroth and he's killed? Cloud fell 300 metres or something and he didn't die? Aerith got a sword to the stomach and died immidiately? How can Aerith revive Cloud? Shouldn't she be able to revive herself also if so?
Cloud's memories Jenova and Tifa
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Considering all the punishment he endured fighting Sephiroth, eventually yes. A bullet did nearly kill him. It didn't though. He survived.
Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the back with the Buster Sword and it didn't kill Sephiroth, it wounded him gravely. What killed him was getting knocked into a wall and falling into a mako pit in a Reactor and losing his legs.
Aerith couldn't survive an impalement through her back and stomach because she's nowhere near as strong as Cloud or Sephiroth. She's never been infused with Mako or Jenova cells, or trained her body. That's a wound that's fatal for average people.
Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the back with the Buster Sword and it didn't kill Sephiroth, it wounded him gravely. What killed him was getting knocked into a wall and falling into a mako pit in a Reactor and losing his legs.
Aerith couldn't survive an impalement through her back and stomach because she's nowhere near as strong as Cloud or Sephiroth. She's never been infused with Mako or Jenova cells, or trained her body. That's a wound that's fatal for average people.
Lost his legs? I've never heard of that
.Did Cloud die when he was shot and was resurrected or did he just pass on to the other side for a few seconds?
How could he kill Sephiroth without making it into SOLDIER? He could withstand being speared by a sword and all?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Sephiroth's original body in the Northern Crater had no legs. That's why Safer Sephiroth..has no legs.
Cloud didn't die, he just was gravely injured.
And as I said earlier, Cloud didn't make it into SOLDIER because he didn't have the mental strength to endure the Mako Infusion. It wasn't about physical strength, but mental strength.
Cloud didn't die, he just was gravely injured.
And as I said earlier, Cloud didn't make it into SOLDIER because he didn't have the mental strength to endure the Mako Infusion. It wasn't about physical strength, but mental strength.
Edley
Pray for Sound
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- Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
Is this actually stated somewhere? Or just based on the OG crystal image?
I'm willing to run with legless Sephy, but part of me thought it was just lazy CG back in 1997.
Agreed that Cloud survived the battle with Sephiroth as well as Yazoo's gunshot. (Fuck that name...) The explosion could have killed him had Aerith and Zack not intervened.
I forgot the explosion. Well did that kill him? How did they intervene? And how can they intervene and have never done anything in the past? Seems so wierd if they can contact everyone but doesn't
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
....No, the explosion didn't kill him either. They intervened when they spoke to him while he was on the brink of death. When Cloud called Aerith "mother" and she said Cloud was too big to adopt, while Zack said "Tough luck friend, it's not your time yet." He then found his way back to the Church, in the pool.
@Isaac Dian
Yes it is. Sephiroth's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.
Based on in-game evidence and the fact that he had to repair/regenerate his body, clearly the parts he were missing were from the waist down. He suffered massive injuries and the entire point of the Reunion in FFVII is to not just acquire the Black Materia, but also to use Jenova to regenerate his mutilated body.
@Isaac Dian
Yes it is. Sephiroth's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.
Trivia 1 - Sephiroth All Over the Place said:
Based on in-game evidence and the fact that he had to repair/regenerate his body, clearly the parts he were missing were from the waist down. He suffered massive injuries and the entire point of the Reunion in FFVII is to not just acquire the Black Materia, but also to use Jenova to regenerate his mutilated body.
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Thank you! I'm kind of rusty when it comes to the facts. I played it when I was young and with limited english skills at the time.
Demona
Dominique Destine
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- Sizheng
Phoenix-downing this thread because I am confused/curious.
From what I understood of the Cloud/Tifa/Zack memory arc/explanation in the game, I gathered that Cloud's insecurity and shame, as well as confusion post-Mako-poisoning, created his persona at the beginning of the game. I don't believe Tifa's personal memories had anything to do with forming Cloud's persona, because they're used as a control, or an identifier, to let Cloud know he existed prior to Nibelheim. The way I saw it, Tifa doubted her own memories because Cloud doubted his, not particularly because her memories were used to create nouveau-Cloud. More like, Cloud's memories of Tifa were used to do so. Zack, on the other hand, Jenova would have access to.
I don't interpret Cloud as being too mentally weak to withstand Mako infusion; I interpret that he is stronger than the others, and therefore not compatible with Shinra's desire to create physically Elite and yet mentally weak and easily controlled individuals. Jenova would surely reject them on that basis alone. Did Hojo's experimentation take place within Shinra parameters?
From what I understood of the Cloud/Tifa/Zack memory arc/explanation in the game, I gathered that Cloud's insecurity and shame, as well as confusion post-Mako-poisoning, created his persona at the beginning of the game. I don't believe Tifa's personal memories had anything to do with forming Cloud's persona, because they're used as a control, or an identifier, to let Cloud know he existed prior to Nibelheim. The way I saw it, Tifa doubted her own memories because Cloud doubted his, not particularly because her memories were used to create nouveau-Cloud. More like, Cloud's memories of Tifa were used to do so. Zack, on the other hand, Jenova would have access to.
I don't interpret Cloud as being too mentally weak to withstand Mako infusion; I interpret that he is stronger than the others, and therefore not compatible with Shinra's desire to create physically Elite and yet mentally weak and easily controlled individuals. Jenova would surely reject them on that basis alone. Did Hojo's experimentation take place within Shinra parameters?
Roger
He/him
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- Minato
Tifa wasn't in doubt about her memories cause they were missing no, but the fact remains is that of Cloud's past he remembers meeting with Tifa and being a cool guy that gets into fight (as Tifa has always sees him) but not any of what he actually was like. And he didn't have access to Zack's memories. In the original game, Zack was bullet in the brains dead by the time Cloud got moving.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
@Sizheng
Jenova is way more powerful then you're giving her credit for. It's canon that she can copy people's memories. Cloud may have his own ideas of what she should copy, but the fact that the copying happens at all says someone else is behind the wheel. And yes, Jenova does copy memories off of Tifa, otherwise Cloud would have no memories of the promise scene. Tifa isn't doubting her memories; she's wondering why Cloud has different ones then she does and is having problems calling him out on it.
Also, your line
Jenova is way more powerful then you're giving her credit for. It's canon that she can copy people's memories. Cloud may have his own ideas of what she should copy, but the fact that the copying happens at all says someone else is behind the wheel. And yes, Jenova does copy memories off of Tifa, otherwise Cloud would have no memories of the promise scene. Tifa isn't doubting her memories; she's wondering why Cloud has different ones then she does and is having problems calling him out on it.
Also, your line
goes against canon. The reason why some people can mentally withstand mako better then others is because they have enough willpower to not loose the sense of who they are to all the minds in the Lifestream. Cloud, when he first tries out for SOLDIER, is too mentally weak.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
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- Ite
Are you implying that Tifa remembered kid!Cloud as a cool dude who got into a fight..?
Honest question, sorry.
Cloud's memories are constructs created by Jenoviroth to supersede his rejection of the process that turned the rest of Nibelheim into black-cloaks. They couldn't make him mindless (or Zack busted them out before the process was complete) so instead they just played with the memories that were already there.
Cloud continues to reject them and be a vegetable until he meets Tifa in Midgar, at which point he has someone to confirm his "identity" there was no magical thought-transplant that occurred between Tifa and Cloud -- only the J-cells taking advantage of their relationship.
Sephiroth speaks in half-truths. He's like Ondore. Don't believe his lies. Hojo too. Disbelieving the manipulative text of a villain is not "going against canon" especially when the game makes a point of telling you that they are lying manipulative villains, and contradicts them several times.
Honest question, sorry.
Cloud's memories are constructs created by Jenoviroth to supersede his rejection of the process that turned the rest of Nibelheim into black-cloaks. They couldn't make him mindless (or Zack busted them out before the process was complete) so instead they just played with the memories that were already there.
Cloud continues to reject them and be a vegetable until he meets Tifa in Midgar, at which point he has someone to confirm his "identity" there was no magical thought-transplant that occurred between Tifa and Cloud -- only the J-cells taking advantage of their relationship.
Sephiroth speaks in half-truths. He's like Ondore. Don't believe his lies. Hojo too. Disbelieving the manipulative text of a villain is not "going against canon" especially when the game makes a point of telling you that they are lying manipulative villains, and contradicts them several times.
Roger
He/him
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- Minato
Yeah, Tifa is saying when Cloud is clashing with Barret that he was always like this. Cloud doesn't disagree with this. What was actually going on back at Nibelheim (her going up the mountain, falling from the bridge, getting into a coma, it being blamed on Cloud but her closest friends knew better and kept their silence), went on behind her back. She didn't know what the reason was behind the beef between Cloud and the others and just thought Cloud was the type to get into fights. After she finds Cloud again, he actually becomes that kind of person. At least with Barret. As we know he mellows out of his tough guy act within an hour or two of us getting to play with him.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
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- Ite
To me there is a difference between cool dude and scrappy whiny kid. "You would get into fights at the drop of a hat" doesn't imply that he won any.
In that instance, Tifa is referring to memories that are unadulterated, that was actually Cloud getting into those fights -- Tifa did not need to 'implant' those memories magically into him. In fact, Tifa never has to do that, because her memories of a boy named Cloud are memories of Actual Cloud.
In that instance, Tifa is referring to memories that are unadulterated, that was actually Cloud getting into those fights -- Tifa did not need to 'implant' those memories magically into him. In fact, Tifa never has to do that, because her memories of a boy named Cloud are memories of Actual Cloud.
Roger
He/him
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- Minato
True, but there is the small point that based on this memories Tifa fell in love with Cloud. Hence the assumption that they made her see Cloud in positive light.
Demona
Dominique Destine
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- Sizheng
At the risk of this turning into any variant of CloTi or LTD, looking at the story from a holistic perspective and giving less attention to dialogue as gospel (people lie and manipulate, after all), I honestly don't believe Tifa fell in love with Cloud owing those memories. It honestly makes no sense that Tifa, who didn't seem to pay much attention to him prior to the promise, fell for him back then.
As far as memories and such tell, Tifa seldom spent much time with Cloud, and paid less attention to him than her little posse. It probably wasn't until she found him at the station and AVALANCHE hired him that she started to see more of him while puzzling things out, or starting to realise that something was wrong.
And the "You were always like this" comment is a bit of a throwaway. It's the sort of inanity people throw at ten-year reunions. I think I feel that way because in my experience, it's said by people who want to imply they want to know more about what went on than they did. Of course all of this is open to interpretation and people are saying some pretty cool things.
Also, the game itself makes the accumulation of love points or whatever happen throughout the story. I like to think that if anything, the close quarters of camaraderie and disillusionment invoked whatever feelings that lot ended up having for one another. [/cowardly fence sitting statement]
As far as memories and such tell, Tifa seldom spent much time with Cloud, and paid less attention to him than her little posse. It probably wasn't until she found him at the station and AVALANCHE hired him that she started to see more of him while puzzling things out, or starting to realise that something was wrong.
And the "You were always like this" comment is a bit of a throwaway. It's the sort of inanity people throw at ten-year reunions. I think I feel that way because in my experience, it's said by people who want to imply they want to know more about what went on than they did. Of course all of this is open to interpretation and people are saying some pretty cool things.
Also, the game itself makes the accumulation of love points or whatever happen throughout the story. I like to think that if anything, the close quarters of camaraderie and disillusionment invoked whatever feelings that lot ended up having for one another. [/cowardly fence sitting statement]
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
....You'd then have to explain for what gain or purpose would Tifa lie or be disingenuous, especially during a crucial moment such as piecing together Cloud's fractured consciousness. You've now tacked on a label of superficiality and dishonesty that I honestly don't see fitting Tifa's characterization, let alone it offering anything of value or substance. If anything, it kinda demeans her. What does that give the story?
If Tifa is lying and manipulating, please explain why and how that'd be in character.
If Tifa is lying and manipulating, please explain why and how that'd be in character.
Celes Chere
Banned
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- Noctis
Tbh, I agree with Mako. Tifa cared about Cloud genuinely in the past, she remembered the promise, she actually cared enough to go through newspapers looking for information about him - that was all while she was a kid. As a teenager, we see that Tifa refers to him as 'blonde knight' and how she's waiting for him. In the past, Tifa went through a lot. Her Mother died, she went into a coma for how many weeks? I can imagine she can't remember every single detail. If she didn't care about Cloud or know what he was like she wouldn't have met him at the well in the first place, and she definitely wouldn't have focused a good portion of her attention on a guy that she 'barely' knew.
In the 10th anniversary ulti, it states that right away Tifa notices that Cloud is acting strange/differently. She suspects it right from the start. It's also stated she is the only woman that understands him more than anyone. Also, when it comes to her jumbled memories, she doesn't speak to Cloud about them because she's unsure of them and because she doesn't want to upset Cloud. It's stated she does this for his well being.
Cloud and Tifa were friends. Maybe they weren't as close as they thought, but they were still friends. They still made a promise and they still genuinely cared for one another. So yes I think their childhood crush carried on into their adult years, and I do think Tifa has a very clear understanding of how Cloud is.
In the 10th anniversary ulti, it states that right away Tifa notices that Cloud is acting strange/differently. She suspects it right from the start. It's also stated she is the only woman that understands him more than anyone. Also, when it comes to her jumbled memories, she doesn't speak to Cloud about them because she's unsure of them and because she doesn't want to upset Cloud. It's stated she does this for his well being.
Cloud and Tifa were friends. Maybe they weren't as close as they thought, but they were still friends. They still made a promise and they still genuinely cared for one another. So yes I think their childhood crush carried on into their adult years, and I do think Tifa has a very clear understanding of how Cloud is.