Crisis Core -FFVII- Reunion General Discussion

[cold_spirit]

@ForceStealer, @Shademp

My headcanon is that the Modeoheim extra mission takes place on the green peninsula in the northern continent. Perhaps the town is along the snowy coast across the bay. Afterall, in Crisis Core, Modeoheim overlooks a large body of water.

(Just trying to make it work, I do ultimately think it's a mistake)

Oh look, a Modeoheim mission! How nice. Maybe this will mean a mission in a new area. One that is snowy.

DAMN YOU CRISIS CORE!!!​

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

And to the surprise of absolutely nobody, I am grossly unprepared for the walking can of whoop-ass known as Minerva.

 

[ForceStealer]

@ForceStealer, @Shademp

My headcanon is that the Modeoheim extra mission takes place on the green peninsula in the northern continent. Perhaps the town is along the snowy coast across the bay. Afterall, in Crisis Core, Modeoheim overlooks a large body of water.

(Just trying to make it work, I do ultimately think it's a mistake)

View attachment 13269

I will not give Crisis Core credit for it, but I very much respect your conclusion

 

[Jimmy XH]

I've just completed my first playthrough (ever) and will undoubtedly be back for more. It took me ~15 hours as I wanted to increase the replayability factor in my own head and not do everything at once.

I don't need to repeat what has been said about the story. It's goofy, we know it is, and it misses the mark in several parts but it still serves nicely as a pretext to the world we know and love. I'm a little confused with the timing of it ahead of Rebirth given what "should" happen, but perhaps it's deliberate and will tie into how Rebirth may or may not play out. I did feel myself going at the end though, even though I've seen it a thousand times.

The game is extremely fun to play. It has a combination of out-of-the-box simplicity which allows you beat the game fairly easily, but there is more than enough depth there to explore and keep you coming back. The way the battle system is linked to Remake is a terrific touch, but it retains its own sense of identity as well. There's so much I didn't do first time around, so I'll definitely be looking to get into the finer elements in future playthroughs.

The missions do get tiresome, but I guess it's this game's way of allowing you to go and grind, same as you might have done in the Mythril Mines, or Junon or wherever. Since the story is linear, it gives you the freedom to go and do something else for a bit, even if the repetitive menu-ing can get a bit nauseating.

The game looks great too. It's nice to get a sneak peak at some of the environments we're going to be seeing in Rebirth, as well as some of the summons, enemies, etc. Small things like fighting a Headhunter or a Slaps, enemies you'd almost forgotten, were quite exciting!

Where we miss the mark slightly is the VA and the writing. The story is weird, but the way it's told doesn't do it any favours and as such the voice acting doesn't have much to work with at all. Genesis' cryptic nonsense detracts from some scenes. In many cases it's a problem with what the characters are saying, not how they're saying it. On the other hand, The Turks shine for me. I really liked Cissnei and giving some depth and emotion to Tseng was strong. Overall you might argue that the script and delivery could have done with some sharpening, in much the same way as the graphics were.

Overall though I liked it. I really, really liked it. That'll keep me going nicely until they decide to give us some Rebirth news.

 

[Clement Rage]

Done. Level 35, 24%missions. Interestingly, the 6 star missions are mostly where it gets too tough for me at this point, at fairly handily getting through the endgame.

The timing of this release implies that we will get more CC lore in remake part 2. Interesting.

This is a very good game. The bossfights are well designed, characters have tailored combat styles reflecting their personalities, from Genesis' annoying attacks to Angeal's solid strength to Sephiroth' relatively simple but hitting really hard. And of course Hollander, who knows he has no chance against a first and therefore throws out as many cheap tricks as possible. Magic is a bit overpowered, but I imagine that gets fixed if you play hard mode.

The music is still superb (I'm listening to the final dungeon music right now.) Voice acting hit and miss, I miss the old Hojo and Sephiroth, Cissnei sounds basically the same as her old voice. Some of the updated lines don't work too well. You'll destroy us all v you'll destroy this place' is an interesting switch, neither line quite works, something like 'you've gone too far' might be more appropriate.

Best NPC line delivery is 'Why does Hojo insist on bringing lab monsters with him on vacation?' Whoever that was really put in the incredulity and frustration.

Most likely I can't be bothered doing all the missions, I'll take a shot at 1000 soldiers because I like the idea of it.

Still not quite sure what's up with the ending. Genesis fuses with the summon materia to heal himself, and it works. If... 'You knew... from the beginning?' why didn't he do it sooner?

Theory: I suppose if he thought S cells were a safer bet he wouldn't go for it until out of options. So he...tried to make himself into a Weapon in order to be healed, in the knowledge that Zack would break him out, so he would cheat the planet of his services while swiping the healing.

So the Planet heals Genesis, then Zack smashes the Summon Materia and lets him out. Then he attacks his saviour because he's a dick. Okay?

Then he actually sincerely offers his services to the Goddess, and... what? What's going on?

 

[Tetsujin]

What's going on?

To ponder the mystery is in itself a gift...

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The general thing with Genesis at the ending has MOSTLY to do with the underlying biological themes with the subjects of Project Gillain:

Genesis not healing normally and needing blood transfusions exclusively from Angeal to stabilize his injuries are added help to establish those details fairly early on. Angeal is the naturalborn of Project G whereas Genesis was another child who was artificially modified with Gillian's genes. It's only once Gillian kills herself that both Angeal & Genesis start to suffer directly from degradation that never repairs – because their maternal figure's traits were passed directly on to the host. That's why Angeal Copies can spread to other organisms, but also why Sephiroth is stable – because the S Cells don't have the capability to diffuse.

That's why there are parental themes that get applied to all the main cast's alliance under Shinra & SOLDIER. Those get most overtly reinforced by Lazard's desertion, especially with his own strained biological ties as President Shinra's bastard child, and those themes are most overtly telegraphed when his e-mails specifically are sent during the events of the story.

Given that Genesis had Gillian's genes mapped onto him during the fetal stage, so he's always been looking for an alternative surrogate solution to his issue, which is what caused him to become dependent upon Hollander and desert Shinra before anyone else. Angeal follows because those same moral and ideological rifts are ones that he feels strongly about. That's what brings Zack into the center of everything as Sephiroth doesn't know how to handle all of that, and even he is contemplating abandoning Shinra to join with his friends. Thus when Zack confront's Genesis – he Dyne's himself stating that if the Planet wants him dead, he'll take the whole world down with him.

Angeal recognizes that his own self-loathing of the nature of his existence is something that he can't overcome, so he places Zack in the position of necessarily bringing that to an end, thus he passes that ideological weight on to him in the form of the Buster Sword (the inheritance of that familly as a sort of living legacy of maintaining honor despite the position in which one is subjected to).

While the pure S Cells are one option that's initially a solution that Genesis pursues, that goes to pieces when Sephiroth just goes the opposite path which decapitates Jenova and takes all of that power into himself rather than ever allowing it to diffuse into anyone else. That's why ONLY pure S Cells could be utilized for Genesis, and ones that are modified upon bonding to another host become useless.

Thus, Genesis' ultimate solution is finally found in Banora, where the Dumbapples exist – plants that bear fruit outside of any natural cycle due to the force of the Planet that exists below represented by the Goddess & the Tree's Fruit below that he consumes. This results in, "My salvation, and your eternal slumber" where Gensis is creating an interdependent bond between himself and the Planet as its guardian. He'll act as its guardian, so long as it prevents him from dying – which is done because he promised to destroy the world if it was going to let him die.

That's why when his degradation is cured, the final scene shows both him & Minerva (as "the Goddess" is a maternal manifestation of the Planet's protector) both diffusing into the same current of Lifestream. That relationship exchanges essentially forces Minerva away into "eternal slumber" in order to pass that strength to Genesis – hence his monstrous Summon-like physical transformation as soon as he links himself to the source of that power below Banora.

That's why the Crisis Core Complete Guide refers to S & G as the Two Taboos – Genesis essentially holds the fate of the Planet hostage unless it keeps him alive, "If the Planet desires my destruction, it goes with me." whereas Sephiroth wants to wipe it out completely and start over regardless of how the Planet views him. "Whether your words are lies created to deceive me or the truth I've sought my whole life, it matters not. You will rot." Both of them CLAIM to care about the Planet but explicitly in regards to their ability to force it to accommodate their own needs. This is why those are The Two Taboos as they're ultimately just a threat to it.

Lastly, this is why – despite both S & G being opposites – Aerith is functionally in opposition to BOTH of them as the last of the Cetra in FFVII, which gets further reinforced in the ending of Remake with Sephiroth wanting to un-write the entirety of the past and create a totally different series of events. That's why "The Gift of the Goddess" in the LOVELESS analysis in the mails in Crisis Core provide implications that suggest the functions of both the White & Black Materia, but the path Genesis finds is a third option based upon his own interpretation of those ideas.

The final act of LOVELESS being lost and all of the "pondering the mystery itself being the gift" is all just along the lines of how the ending of FFVII itself is largely subject to interpretation in HOW exactly it reaches its conclusion of a peaceful and verdant world being restored. It's a big bit of existential ideological pondering (which is also a rather significant portion of the type of stuff I've been writing and researching about when I've been up to doing that).


X

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

My headcanon is that the Modeoheim extra mission takes place on the green peninsula in the northern continent. Perhaps the town is along the snowy coast across the bay. Afterall, in Crisis Core, Modeoheim overlooks a large body of water.

(Just trying to make it work, I do ultimately think it's a mistake)

Well, the OG mostly takes place in December/January. Not that seasons are ever acknowledged in the game.
Maybe it was just Summer?

 

[Clement Rage]

Welcome back, X. True to form, I'm going to disagree.

I don't know... Minerva doesn't show up until well after Genesis is healed and just after he's been already thoroughly defeated, he reaches out to her, and then she vanishes. That looks like rejection, not a gift, and Genesis isn't the one in the position of power, he's just been thoroughly stomped and can barely stand, and long after he has already assumed his WEAPON form and been forced out of it. His strength is already gone by that point, and as soon as she's gone he's not even able to stand. That's not 'I have stolen your power and forced you into to slumber, because he never got to take her hand and has no power. He's already lost his superpowers, he's basically helpless.

The Weapons mostly have materia or gems as part of the design, including Chaos.

The closest similar scene is maybe Cloud in Advent children, where he thinks he's dead and Aeris refuses because he's not done yet.

When Genesis returns healed, Zack says 'you mean... you knew, from the beginning?

Best I've got is this: After S cells are no longer an option, Genesis tries to make himself into a Weapon. People can embody Weapons if they have sufficient physical strength, as shown by Chaos, Omega, and Zirconiade. The difficulty is in keeping you mind in doing so. Vincent and Weiss need the protomateria to control themselves.

Zack shows up and is non hostile. Genesis is also more welcoming than usual. "You're late" implication is that he is expected and... welcome would be too strong, but Zack has a role to play in this.

He starts to transform, and Zack tries to talk to him to help him keep his mind, but fails.

Angeal does something similar in his bossfight, he intentionally loses control of himself by making himself so that he can fight Zack without holding back, as a bonus destroying all of Hollander's samples, and reverts to his human form on defeat.

So the bossfight happens, and Zack destroys the materia, knocking Genesis out of his Weapon Form. But he is healed, so Zack is like 'wait... this was your plan? You knew I'd break you out and halt the process, so you could cheat the planet out of its healing. Wow, that is annoying.' The giant red summon materia is gone because Zack destroyed it.

There doesn't seem to be any reason for healed Genesis to attack Zack, other than being a dick. Angeal had a reason, at least.

Then he's defeated again, and that is when Minerva shows up, in his weakness, not his power. He reaches out, and she doesn't take his hand or get absorbed into him, she closes her eyes and disappears, and the camera pulls out from Genesis looking weirdly sad and giving the impression of falling. Looks like a rejection.

So... best I've got is that Genesis thought he was hijacking the planet to heal himself, but Minerva shows up in his defeat to show him that he had never defeated her, she wasn't forced to heal him, it was a genuine gift. His plan worked because she allowed it to, not because he had power over her. You can't force someone to give you a gift, if you do, it's not a gift.

With the healing and because he's thinking more clearly now, Genesis realises he never had the power, but was given mercy anyway. He is sufficiently touched to sincerely want to help for the first time, but Minerva disappears, not appointing him one of her official weapons. So Gen is left behind, in the knowledge that his plans were worthless from the beginning but that he was healed because the planet chose to, not because it was forced to. Accordingly, he has a change of heart and starts actually wanting to help the planet because it's the right thing to do, not because he was hoping for healing from it anymore

There's a lot of guesswork and jumping to conclusions in that, but it's pretty needlessly cryptic as is, supports a lot of interpretations.

Anecdote I forgot previously. I went into the Behemoth King fight without a build capable of dealing with his regen, so I was about to try the hard way of waiting for her to run out of MP and slowly whittling her down, just to see how long I could last. Then Odin showed up in the DMW and cut her in half.

 

[roku]

Yeah behemoth king was kicking my ass until I got the Odin dmw. I assumed it would be immune to instant death but nope.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@Clement Rage Always fun to back-and-forth on these things with ya! I don't actually disagree with you, I think. Also, high five on the mention of the WEAPONS.

The balance Genesis accepts with the Gift of the Goddess is one where "My salvation & your eternal slumber" is a two-way street. When Genesis gets bested by Zack, he essentially goes to sleep and he doesn't really even stir at any point during Deepground's rebellion. It's only AFTER the defeat of Omega Weapon (which is once again acting as an ultimate protector of the Planet) that Genesis eventually awakens with the dead/unconscious Weiss in his arms.

This means that even while Hojo is manipulating the Planet's self-defense mechanisms, or assumedly while Sephiroth is similarly triggering the Weapons to defend him at the North Crater, Genesis is still inactive as he's the other side of that coin. As such I think that the inherent interdependent relationship he is striving for to alleviate his core vulnerability exists as soon as he establishes that connection, hence why his body is no longer suffering from degradation as soon as he's knocked out of his gigantic final boss form, and continues to not experience that degradation during his period of rest within Deepground.

It is interesting that in CCR, his eyes no longer glow as he's absorbing power and catalyzing that transformation though, as that reminded me a lot of how we see the eyes of Sapphire Weapon flash when it's ascending up from North Crater in the original game. The entities that are active throughout the story are all WEAPONS under the control of the Planet itself whilst Genesis remains asleep, and he wakes up as soon as all of those mechanisms are exhausted, so he does still seem to have an interlinked relationship there.

That same life-force interlinked relationship to Jenova is what ultimately allows the SOLDIER with her cells like Sephiroth or even the experiments like Cloud to utilize her powers. What makes Genesis' connection significantly different is that he's forming a link to the Planet itself where he passively depends upon it to keep him alive in what's essentially a hostage symbiotic connection. By comparison, Sephiroth forcibly just absorbs the raw energy from the Lifestream as a resource in more of a parasitic relationship.

Both Genesis & Sephiroth view those links as a means to an end for themselves, whereas Aerith's perspective is more altruistic and a genuinely mutualistic link that preserves the Planet and the memories of all of those who are a part of it. They're ultimately reflections of the same types of relationships that get explored with Shinra's exploitation of the Planet and the concept of what a Promised Land offers.



X

 

[Odysseus]

I haven't properly scanlated any of it because I'm lacking good scans of the Crisis Core books, but here's our rendering of a passage that covers that scene:

 

[Fangu]

I'm not supposed to play games due to healthz but I bought this and started playing it and absolutely zero shits are given that I'm not supposed to be playing games. Life's too short and I'm enjoying this far too much
Carry on.

 

[Clement Rage]

Hope you're okay, Fangu. Enjoy the game and/or not playing as you deem appropriate.

There is a lot of unknowns in all this. I imagine they will get answered in new instalments. It's not very clear how Genesis can menace the planet, or why the planet should care about him.

Something weird is happening with Genesis that we don't know about. Big question is, what actual use is Genesis to the Planet, as a WEAPON he's not great. 'Fulfill his role as a SOLDIER' okay , but what's that?

Sephiroth triggered the Weapons on purpose? I thought that was the planet going 'oh crap, someone has cast meteor. Weapons! Assemble!'

Weapons: Sorry, boss, there's a giant magical barrier in the way.

Planet: Fine, go stomp on those reactors that are poking me.

...I miss TTM and Lic.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

Finally...finally...FINALLY! After a couple of days worth of research, I finally found a suitable build to beat Minerva with.



And this time, I succeeded...despite not getting my HP to 99999. I did have to use 3 Phoenix Downs though.

I also went into the fight fully stocked with Somas, Ethers, and all 3 levels of Potions.

 

[Strangelove]

when i get this eventually, maybe i will finally beat minerva

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I thought that either Divine Rule Broken or SOLDIER of Legend would be the last Trophy standing between myself and a Platinum. It turns out THAT distinction actually belongs to Good Match for Aerith, as you can see from where I'm at in the game when I finally got Platinum.

 

[Lulcielid]

PlayStation Store: December 2022’s top downloads

Who came up tops for the last downloads chart of the year?

blog.playstation.com

CCReunion was the #10 most downloaded PS5 game (US/EU) on the PS Store of Dec'22.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

A joke that popped into my head a while back that I finally remembered to actually make:
(Twitter's back to cropping images disastrously, so some of the edit is missing, but at least the punchline is visible in embedded preview)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1613678622740463616

X

 

[cold_spirit]

After 48 hours, I finally completed my all trophies, all treasure chests, all side content playthrough of CCR, entirely on Hard mode.

Below is my build for Minerva. Note the use of Hammer Punch instead of Costly Punch. This is intentional. In Reunion, Costly Punch consumes 10x more HP to use (1.5625% -> 15.625%). This can be pretty lethal to oneself. Minerva's attacks are manageable if you block them, but the HP loss of repeated Costly Punches is another story. In fact, that was giving me more issues.

Enter Hammer Punch in combination with Genji Helm. With Genji Helm, you no longer expend AP, meaning Hammer Punch always does max damage at no cost. No need to invest in ATK or MAG. As for healing, I found that Smart Consumer is much more effective than Curaga or Full Cure. With a mastered Smart Consumer, a single potion cures 90k HP. That's better than Curaga at max MAG with dualcast. The other Genji equipment is all essential as well, as is having max HP, VIT, and SPR.

I know utilizing SP master and Gil Toss is technically the quickest way, but that requires so much prep work farming SP and gil before every fight. I wanted a strategy that is ready and reliable, which I believe I found here. My battle with Minerva took 1 hour and I can hop on and complete it at any time. Perfect for farming 99 Phoenix Downs to make other powerful materia builds (I'm too stubborn to lower the difficulty to Normal).

Some observations I had during the fight: Minerva's power gauge for Judgement Arrow is easier to bring down to 0% as the fight goes on. In the beginning, doing 99999 repeatedly with Hammer Punch, I could only reduce the power gauge to 75%. However, towards the end of the fight, I could easily bring it down to 0% with the same DPS.

Additionally, on Hard mode, Minerva will only cast Judgement Arrow at certain times. She'll cast it after you break through 70mil HP, 60mil HP, 50mil HP, and so on. So stay close when the times comes and you can immediately reduce the power gauge.

Minerva will begin to cast Ultima about halfway through the battle. The first casting does 11111, the second 22222, and so on until 99999. Fortunately, you can dodge roll through this. I would throw a Phoenix Down on myself during Minerva's cast time just in case I messed up the timing.

 

[Fangu]

What I'm really enjoying about the gameplay is that although planning, technique and skill is rewarded, there's also an element of pure luck. I reached the physical shield dino thingy and thought it'd take forever (unless I replanned) and then bam, Zantetsuken. The element of hope the DMW gives is so fresh. As someone who played all of the mainline yakuza games the beat'em up style is a lot of fun, but combined with the RPG element it's such... a perfect blend.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

That reminds me that about the only thing that I wish CCR would have allowed was to modify the item layout/order. The only things that I ever use are Potions & Phoenix Downs, with MAYBE the occasional X-Potion. Especially since Aerial Drain functions as a dodge & HP Restore, I genuinely don't think I used healing spells at any point during my entire playthough.

I didn't know about Hammer Punch not basing its damage off of a stat, and that's pretty handy. I invested in Magical Punch since there are a couple items that allow for 0MP cost, which makes that appealing for the same reason. I also boosted my MAG since my primary layout has Hell Blizzaga equipped along with Status Strike, and I'd swap that out for Dualcast and sometimes a stronger spell when status effects don't apply. Especially since I never really put anything in to healing materia, MAG always seemed like a very worthwhile investment.

Costly Punch definitely feels like a step down compared to the alternatives.

I'm still just gradually meandering my way through NG+ Hard Mode, but one thing I definitely miss earlier on is having the Buster Sword. I have to give the game props for making the combat evolution into something that I actually REALLY have a desire to get back to by progressing through the story again. (It also makes doing the Minerva battle in Chapter 4 feel like a whole different kettle of fish to doing it later on).


X

 

[Mirepoix]

Thought I'd register here to organize some of my thoughts, as this forum seems more conducive to nuanced discussion than Reddit.

I just finished playing CCR, not having revisited this title since it was initially released. My memory of it wasn't especially positive, so I was curious to see how I'd feel this time around (especially as someone who wasn't particularly impressed with FF7R). I was pleasantly surprised to find a game that, though sort of cheap and monotonous in places, captured more of the je ne sais quoi of the FF7 universe than anything else I've seen rolled out from Square over the course of their nostalgic cash-in over the last decade or so.

I think there's a lot to learn about game design, narrative structure and world-building from CCR and it's something from which FF7R could have taken a few cues. In particular, the pacing of CCR made something blatantly stand out for me: I don't need to spend 40 hours in Midgar. Aside from Wall Market, the muted tones of the city (industrial greys above the plate, dusty browns in the slums) create a dreary (intentional, no doubt) palette that, for me, becomes really boring and claustrophobic when stretched out over the course of an entire game. CCR does a nice job of alleviating some of this with its mission-based aesthetic diversions, i.e. how nice it is to suddenly find yourself in a rural landscape beside the fondly-remembered chocobo farm.

Towards the end, I was feeling as though Square almost could have rolled CCR and FF7R into one game. Trim the fat from both (meaningless padded-out fetch quests, overlong expository scenes, etc.) and weave one epic introductory tale where the narrative perspective is passed between a few different protagonists whose fates intertwine in ways that seem much more interesting when places in a coherent, unified context.

I remember when I was a kid, I used to scoff at my friends who couldn't get into RPGs. They'd ask where the action was, why I'd want to play a game that was like reading a book, etc. Now as an adult, I'm finding myself doubling back and sort of agreeing with their perspective in some ways. It goes without saying that many of the story beats in CCR are just plain stupid, which is frustrating because there's actually a pretty good chunk of supplementary lore that properly contextualizes and sets-up the Big Show. It's just weighed down with corny theatrics, bad characters / character design, clunky dialogue...you know, the usual JRPG routine. It's a moot complaint, but I always wish they'd do a bit more showing and a little less telling.

A little scattered, just sort of writing this down as it comes to me. Might add some more later.

 

[MoLe_BlAdE]

Just sitting here AFK waiting for my final Genesis DMW moment to pop like

 

[Makoeyes987]

In both the original CC and CC-R.. my last DMW scene was a Cloud one.

For some reason, it's always trying to get that last Cloud DMW scene near the end, lol...