Deepground questions

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#51
Well in the book it's notated for year 0007. No specific date is given but it mentions happening around that specific event.

And really, given the time frame of when FFVII happens, it really falls under late December. Early January if one pushes it but I think the final battle against Sephiroth is only listed as having happened during that specific month. January of 0008, I mean.

I remember what you mean now though, because yes, a bunch of those events on the timeline don't have actual "date" dates. Just approximations and they are ordered in the chronological/continuity of their sequence. Only a few specified key events get hard dates.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#53
What book are you referring to?
Oh, the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

That one had a lot of stuff in it, and the timeline it featured basically runs down the key moments of the Compilation. And of course there are the personal timelines that existed for the main character profiles, so yeah.

The Compilation timeline has a few moments with hard specific dates and then just ones that are just placed on it sequentially.

..Which I guess makes sense because you can't exactly pinpoint when exactly something happens because you know, it's a game :mon:

But FFVII proper takes place after 12/9th all the way to the last third of January. A whirlwind of a month and a half :mon:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#55
But that book's timeline doesn't note the Deepground rebellion at all. :monster:

It only mentions that the way out of Deepground was blocked during Meteorfall.
Huh? Are you sure? It's been awhile but I'm pretty positive that was the one that gave us the timeline events of stuff for the Compilation and it mentioned the whole thing about Restrictors. What made it jump out was them mentioning being 4 and stuff.

Wait... I remember, the Crisis Core Ultimania had a timeline too, didn't it? We used both books in making that timeline.

EDIT: Because I was really curious, I looked through past emails and stuff regarding it wow... It made me remember that there was the timeline from the FFVII Ultimania Omega, the Crisis Core Ultimania, the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and also the FFVII 10th Anniversary Revised Ultimania... Which apparently changed shit.

And this timeline is old, like created/worked on all the way back from the AC.net days... Like... What the fuck... Just... Man, what a nostalgia bomb.

Wow.

I now remember how confusing the timeline is because they of how they changed shit around with each subsequent book....

The comments on the timeline article illustrate how some of the event placements are inconsistent too.
 
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#56
How is Midgar itself supplied with food? They can't grow anything near it because Mako drains fertility, the gates are sealed, and the only farm in the world deals in high end racing birds. How about the Gold Saucer, built in the middle of an impassable, desolate desert accessible by cable car based in the middle of a burnt out ruin? It's way too late to ask these questions now.

He should be able to if he doesn't leave them in there for long. Yuffie was taken into Nero's darkness for a moment and survived since Vincent was able to pull her out.
Completely incapacitated though, and only moved a very short distance.

Edit: Oh, and there's this:

This strikes me as a particularly noteworthy observation. If Shin-Ra wanted to close the door on Deepground, it doesn't make sense to keep sending people down there.

They could have flooded the place or filled it with poisonous gas or ... just anything that wasn't adding more troops.
Flooding or poisoning somewhere that big is anything but easy. As I understood it, DG was a millstone around Shinra's neck that got out of control. Control of them is shaky, if you stop feeding them, then they might decide they have nothing to lose and take as many Shinra staff as possible with them, likely a lot.

If DG's existence is revealed, all the human experiments that Shinra works extremely hard to keep secrets come to light and you potentially face rebellion at the exact time when Shinra is massively focused on maintaining control and public relations, which is the reason for Tifa's public execution. They offer nothing against WEAPONs that the Shinra military doesn't already possess.
 
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Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#57
How is Midgar itself supplied with food? They can't grow anything near it because Mako drains fertility, the gates are sealed, and the only farm in the world deals in high end racing birds. How about the Gold Saucer, built in the middle of an impassable, desolate desert accessible by cable car based in the middle of a burnt out ruin? It's way too late to ask these questions now.
I wouldn't aquate not seeing many flowers under the plate to nothing grows, period. And just seeing the one gate to the slums and the one farm is just conserving details for gameplay purposes.


Flooding or poisoning somewhere that big is anything but easy. As I understood it, DG was a millstone around Shinra's neck that got out of control. Control of them is shaky, if you stop feeding them, then they might decide they have nothing to lose and take as many Shinra staff as possible with them, likely a lot.

If DG's existence is revealed, all the human experiments that Shinra works extremely hard to keep secrets come to light and you potentially face rebellion at the exact time when Shinra is massively focused on maintaining control and public relations, which is the reason for Tifa's public execution. They offer nothing against WEAPONs that the Shinra military doesn't already possess.
They weren't just feeding them. They were clearly being outfitted with top of the line equipment right up until the fall of Shin-RA. And i don't understand the "they offer nothing" idea. A armada of gunships, an army of superpowered warriors, tens of thousands of guns. How is there no use for that in a war where anything other then success in the field result in certain death for everyone on the planet. We see the defense Junon could put up against Sapphire, we see the force Shinra could put to field against Zack, a rogue SOLDIER First Class, we see the force Deepground could put to field in the final battle at Midgar. Deepground is portrayed as bigger, better and more advanced then the Shinra military, that's clear.
 
#58
It's fairly thoroughly set out that Mako reactors drain the life out of land. Yes, they're excluded for gameplay purposes, but DG's supplies could be too. Every Mako reactor is in the middle of a wasteland for a reason. Playing the game first, I assumed they were being sustained by Mako somehow.

DG are pretty under equipped, actually. No materia, no grenades, very few autonomous robots.

They have guns. Shinra has guns. They have helicopters. Shinra has helicopters. Shinra also has a bunch of other stuff.

DG has Guard Hounds. Shinra has Guard Hounds...plus a bunch of upgraded versions.they have Red Saucers, Shinra has Red Saucers... plus a bunch of upgraded versions. DG doesn't field Scorpion Guards, Airbusters, Carry Armours, H2SO4s, Behemoths (other than Azul). Shinra already has superpowered warriors in SOLDIER, the Tsviets are more powerful but not in any way that makes a difference against WEAPONs and are much more unreliable. DG doesn't field Motor Balls or Cromwells or Grunts or Moth Slashers. They fire the same bullets that Shinra gear already has. Shinra waged an intercontinental war, they have no shortage of guns.

The entire Junon garrison shooting at Sapphire did nothing to it, adding more guns to that makes no difference. Shinra focuses on the one thing that works, which is Sister Ray.

What we see in the OG is limited, because they didn't have the tech to show it, but I'm willing to bet it will be expanded in the remake. As a rule, everything got bigger as Square gained the ability to show it.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#59
It's fairly thoroughly set out that Mako reactors drain the life out of land. Yes, they're excluded for gameplay purposes, but DG's supplies could be too. Every Mako reactor is in the middle of a wasteland for a reason. Playing the game first, I assumed they were being sustained by Mako somehow.
They're not finished draining the life out of the planet though.

DG are pretty under equipped, actually. No materia, no grenades, very few autonomous robots.
They do have materia and many autonomous robots. We see this.

They have guns. Shinra has guns. They have helicopters. Shinra has helicopters. Shinra also has a bunch of other stuff.

DG has Guard Hounds. Shinra has Guard Hounds...plus a bunch of upgraded versions.they have Red Saucers, Shinra has Red Saucers... plus a bunch of upgraded versions. DG doesn't field Scorpion Guards, Airbusters, Carry Armours, H2SO4s, Behemoths (other than Azul).
Deepgrounds robots are shown to attack at a larger range then any of those robots have ever done. All those things you mentioned have only ever failed at being anti-personnel weapons. Vincent has actually needed to take the sky, send in a fleet of airships, or hop on a turret to deal with Deepground's mechanised units.

Shinra already has superpowered warriors in SOLDIER, the Tsviets are more powerful but not in any way that makes a difference against WEAPONs and are much more unreliable.
First of all, if that were true, the Weapons would have just won against AVALANCHE. Secondly, every person in Deepground is a superpower SOLDIER, not just a Tsviets. It is a superpowered army that needs it own city and it's own Mako Reactor to support. No, that is not something Shinra is ever even suggested to have anywhere else.

The entire Junon garrison shooting at Sapphire did nothing to it, adding more guns to that makes no difference. Shinra focuses on the one thing that works, which is Sister Ray.

What we see in the OG is limited, because they didn't have the tech to show it, but I'm willing to bet it will be expanded in the remake. As a rule, everything got bigger as Square gained the ability to show it.
Crisis Core's CGI cutscenes don't lack capacity to show impressive stuff. But in it, Shinra's best weapons against it's enemies were SOLDIER First Classes, a bunch of garden variety footsoldiers and Weiss and Nero, whom they were willing to field.

Deepground kidnapped 1200 people in Junon in a single day and depopulated the entire city of Edge. And circa Dirge of Cerberus, Deepground is already considerably smaller, having been doing nothing but killing their own men for three years straight with no influx of new personel. Remake will surely portray Shinra as bigger in the Remake, but I don't actually think they'll be able to match Dirge of Cerberus' utterly bonkers scale.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#60
Secondly, every person in Deepground is a superpower SOLDIER, not just a Tsviets.
Actually, that's not really true. DG Grunts aren't equivalent to SOLDER. They're grunt units. However, they're superior than a standard Shinra Grunt due to the fact they've been trained hard, empowered with mako suits, and have superior machinery. But I wouldn't go so far to say that DG grunts are equivalent to SOLDIER. DG have their own SOLDIER units, after all.

Furthermore, if you look at the guns DG soldiers use, they're actually old fashioned assault rifles based on modified Lee Enfield rifles. Compared to other weapons utilized by other characters, or the WRO, those rifles are hella old-school. Their sub-machine guns are just AK-47s.

If anything... That leads me to think that while they have high level machines and robotics, they weren't getting an endless supply of weapons and had to make due with what they had.

Argento is the one who made the weapons for each of the Tsviets, too. So, maybe Shinra wasn't just sending them a steady supply of weaponry?


Crisis Core's CGI cutscenes don't lack capacity to show impressive stuff. But in it, Shinra's best weapons against it's enemies were SOLDIER First Classes, a bunch of garden variety footsoldiers and Weiss and Nero, whom they were willing to field.
Well, let's not write off too many Shinra's capabilities. They do have autonomous mecha units, like the Guard Scorpion, Air Buster, Motor Ball, Heli-Gunner, etc. I mean, I wouldn't say they're complete trash next to Deepground. A DG Black Widow isn't that far above the other mechanized weaponry Shinra was making out in the open.

Granted, you're right. DG is shown to have highly specialized and advanced weaponry but I wouldn't say Shinra is just working with muskets and cannons either, lol.

Deepground kidnapped 1200 people in Junon in a single day and depopulated the entire city of Edge.
Not exactly, the entire city of Edge wasn't depopulated. 500 people were taken. However Cloud and Tifa evacuated a number of citizens once DG started attacking.

I mean, in the end, Seventh Heaven is back running and people are back living there. I don't think that'd be possible if everybody in the city got slaughtered lol

I want to say something that I never noticed or fully comprehended due to the game's art files being close to unreadable.

The city that Deepground inhabits? Those buildings and architecture?

Those are remnants of old Midgar. The previous town(s) that were eventually lost and forgotten with time. Apparently DG inhabits some old, forgotten portions of Midgar that have been built over.

I have no idea why the game wouldn't do more to emphasize that or work with such an interesting revelation, but then I remember it's a PS2 game that was pretty quickly hashed together. Which is a shame.
 
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Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#61
Actually, that's not really true. DG Grunts aren't equivalent to SOLDER. They're grunt units. However, they're superior than a standard Shinra Grunt due to the fact they've been trained hard, empowered with mako suits, and have superior machinery. But I wouldn't go so far to say that DG grunts are equivalent to SOLDIER. DG have their own SOLDIER units, after all.
Deepground SOLDIERS are SOLDIERS whether they use guns or swords. They do not have non SOLDIER combatants.

Furthermore, if you look at the guns DG soldiers use, they're actually old fashioned assault rifles based on modified Lee Enfield rifles. Compared to other weapons utilized by other characters, or the WRO, those rifles are hella old-school. Their sub-machine guns are just AK-47s.

If anything... That leads me to think that while they have high level machines and robotics, they weren't getting an endless supply of weapons and had to make due with what they had.

Argento is the one who made the weapons for each of the Tsviets, too. So, maybe Shinra wasn't just sending them a steady supply of weaponry?
I don't see how that would be possible. Every Deepgrounf SOLDIER NEEDS a mako suit to function at all. Argento ain't making those themselves. Shinra had to be churning those out by the tens of thousands to outfit Deepground. And those suits, each and every one of them, look a hell of lot more advanced then what the normal SOLDIERs and Shinra MPs are slumming it with.

Well, let's not write off too many Shinra's capabilities. They do have autonomous mecha units, like the Guard Scorpion, Air Buster, Motor Ball, Heli-Gunner, etc. I mean, I wouldn't say they're complete trash next to Deepground. A DG Black Widow isn't that far above the other mechanized weaponry Shinra was making out in the open.

Granted, you're right. DG is shown to have highly specialized and advanced weaponry but I wouldn't say Shinra is just working with muskets and cannons either, lol.
They got them, but with the way the President talks about Airbuster, or Scarlet and Heidegger talk about the Proud Clod or how Rufus talks about the Highwind, it's clear these are singular units. Deepground gets the humongous spiderbots that fire missles that strike targets a mile away mass produced. Shinra could've really used that cira FFVII.

Not exactly, the entire city of Edge wasn't depopulated. 500 people were taken. However Cloud and Tifa evacuated a number of citizens once DG started attacking.

I mean, in the end, Seventh Heaven is back running and people are back living there. I don't think that'd be possible if everybody in the city got slaughtered lol
Well, Johnny opened his bar for two customers, Tifa and Cloud might be doing better with 20 customers, but Edge is huuuge.

I want to say something that I never noticed or fully comprehended due to the game's art files being close to unreadable.

The city that Deepground inhabits? Those buildings and architecture?

Those are remnants of old Midgar. The previous town(s) that were eventually lost and forgotten with time. Apparently DG inhabits some old, forgotten portions of Midgar that have been built over.

I have no idea why the game wouldn't do more to emphasize that or work with such an interesting revelation, but then I remember it's a PS2 game that was pretty quickly hashed together. Which is a shame.
The Deepground city is underground. Like, waaaay underground. The slums are on solid ground. There's no implication there are structures beneath it. And not emphasize a relevation is par for the course with DoC. The WRO has no idea what their airships are powered by, what civilisation built them, ectera. they just exist, suddenly.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#62
Noooo.. Deepground Soldiers are not.. "SOLDIERs." They really aren't, and technically the title shouldn't be capitalized. It's been romanized as "Soldier" officially.

They are not the results of Hojo and Project S's experiments, which is technically what SOLDIERs are. They are born of other experiments. Using mako and creating mako addiction which requires mako suits. That's why they're called Deepground Soldiers. Those are not the same as SOLDIER. They're the Deepground variety.

The ones that are of SOLDIER, are the ones that use swords, wear the SOLDIER uniform, and literally call themselves SOLDIER. The ones with guns, are called DG soldiers. Above them are the DG snipers, then DG Heavy Armed Soldiers, SOLDIERs, the Heavy Armed Soldiers B and then Commanders. The small fry with guns are literally at the bottom of the totem pole, that's where you start in multiplayer mode and you definitely aren't SOLDIER level. They aren't "normal" but they aren't a SOLDIER by a long shot.

And yes, some of the DG weapons are old fashioned, to the point that if they had new weapons, why would they be using them?

DeepgroundSoldiers.jpg


Look at them. The DG Soldiers are using Lee Enfield rifles that are bolt action and magazine fed, while the WRO are using Sig 552 assault rifles, modern and metallic. The higher ranking DG Soldiers (like heavy armed soldiers) may use modern, high tech weapons but the lowest ranks? The soldier grunts who are the largest in number? They're relegated old weapons that have been retrofitted.

And I don't know how you're sure Argento isn't the one making their weapons or supplies or anything at all. We literally have no clue whatsoever how she works or what she does. For all we know, the automation capabilities of DG are what allows them to self sustain other supplies. If she's able to create every Tsviet's weapon, from gunblade katanas, to mechanical wing-arms, to an anti-tank material gun... I don't see how you can say with certainty she's not the one behind manufacturing anything. We don't know. What we do know is that she's the only one attributed to making anything at all.

They got them, but with the way the President talks about Airbuster, or Scarlet and Heidegger talk about the Proud Clod or how Rufus talks about the Highwind, it's clear these are singular units. Deepground gets the humongous spiderbots that fire missles that strike targets a mile away mass produced. Shinra could've really used that cira FFVII.
But that's not true. Their robots are definitely not singular units and they do have units like those in FFVII. The Proud Clad is unique because it was just built. But there have been numerous copies of their robots seen over time. We've seen other Guard Scorpions in Crisis Core all over the world. They were used in Modeoheim, Midgar and Junon against Genesis.

Shinra has Grand Panzer Tanks they let loose en masse. They're used against Genesis, and then by Genesis as well. Grand Panzer Tanks are also used in FFVII as enemies in Midgar to stop Cloud. Moth and Hell Slashers are used all over Midgar and elsewhere as security robots, including the Shinra Building. The Helligunner and Hundred-Gunner are in Crisis Core too as robot troops that are sent to fight Genesis and against Zack. And then there are like the billion different variants of "sweepers." The small ones, big ones, and fully armed ones with missile launchers. There's also Eagle Gunners, Wolfmeisters, and Guardians that they use. And I'm certain there's more.

The Black Widow robots used by Deepground are roughly the same in power and size as a Guard Scorpion. And Guard Scorpions utilize long range missiles too. The only difference is that they're is a whole bunch of them 3 years post FFVII and the WRO is outmatched since Shinra's technology is gone. I don't think you can just say that Shinra is somehow technologically deficient in regards to robotic weaponry. They're not one-offs, and they were used. The only problem is that Shinra was in crisis and not able to use them properly.

And even if they sent those units to the Northern Crater, you really think that'd make a difference? They'd just go haywire and either stop functioning or go berserk and kill people.

The Deepground city is underground. Like, waaaay underground. The slums are on solid ground. There's no implication there are structures beneath it. And not emphasize a relevation is par for the course with DoC. The WRO has no idea what their airships are powered by, what civilisation built them, ectera. they just exist, suddenly.
Are you forgetting all of the literal old Kalm-like buildings and broken city structures that are found within Deepground when Vincent infiltrates the place?

Yes, it's way underground. And way underground, there was a city. An old city that apparently was buried and forgotten that predates Deepground.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#63
Noooo.. Deepground Soldiers are not.. "SOLDIERs." They really aren't, and technically the title shouldn't be capitalized. It's been romanized as "Soldier" officially.

They are not the results of Hojo and Project S's experiments, which is technically what SOLDIERs are. They are born of other experiments. Using mako and creating mako addiction which requires mako suits. That's why they're called Deepground Soldiers. Those are not the same as SOLDIER. They're the Deepground variety.

The ones that are of SOLDIER, are the ones that use swords, wear the SOLDIER uniform, and literally call themselves SOLDIER. The ones with guns, are called DG soldiers. Above them are the DG snipers, then DG Heavy Armed Soldiers, SOLDIERs, the Heavy Armed Soldiers B and then Commanders. The small fry with guns are literally at the bottom of the totem pole, that's where you start in multiplayer mode and you definitely aren't SOLDIER level. They aren't "normal" but they aren't a SOLDIER by a long shot.

And yes, some of the DG weapons are old fashioned, to the point that if they had new weapons, why would they be using them?
SOLDIER predates Hojo and Project S. Deepground started as a hospital for injured SOLDIERs. It then off shot as an attempts to make a better breed of SOLDIER. You may feel the rank and file of Deepground fell short of that goal if you wish but Shinra Mako-enhanced soldiers are still what is referred to as SOLDIER in the dub. Vincent is familiar with SOLDIERs, even though he got put in that coffin back when Sephiroth was still an experiment meant to lead Shinra to the Promised Land.




Look at them. The DG Soldiers are using Lee Enfield rifles that are bolt action and magazine fed, while the WRO are using Sig 552 assault rifles, modern and metallic. The higher ranking DG Soldiers (like heavy armed soldiers) may use modern, high tech weapons but the lowest ranks? The soldier grunts who are the largest in number? They're relegated old weapons that have been retrofitted.

And I don't know how you're sure Argento isn't the one making their weapons or supplies or anything at all. We literally have no clue whatsoever how she works or what she does. For all we know, the automation capabilities of DG are what allows them to self sustain other supplies. If she's able to create every Tsviet's weapon, from gunblade katanas, to mechanical wing-arms, to an anti-tank material gun... I don't see how you can say with certainty she's not the one behind manufacturing anything. We don't know. What we do know is that she's the only one attributed to making anything at all.
I'm looking, I don't want you are expecting me to see.



You grade this below the submachine gun and plain stick given to the rank and file Shinra MPs?

But that's not true. Their robots are definitely not singular units and they do have units like those in FFVII. The Proud Clad is unique because it was just built. But there have been numerous copies of their robots seen over time. We've seen other Guard Scorpions in Crisis Core all over the world. They were used in Modeoheim, Midgar and Junon against Genesis.

Shinra has Grand Panzer Tanks they let loose en masse. They're used against Genesis, and then by Genesis as well. Grand Panzer Tanks are also used in FFVII as enemies in Midgar to stop Cloud. Moth and Hell Slashers are used all over Midgar and elsewhere as security robots, including the Shinra Building. The Helligunner and Hundred-Gunner are in Crisis Core too as robot troops that are sent to fight Genesis and against Zack. And then there are like the billion different variants of "sweepers." The small ones, big ones, and fully armed ones with missile launchers. There's also Eagle Gunners, Wolfmeisters, and Guardians that they use. And I'm certain there's more.

The Black Widow robots used by Deepground are roughly the same in power and size as a Guard Scorpion. And Guard Scorpions utilize long range missiles too. The only difference is that they're is a whole bunch of them 3 years post FFVII and the WRO is outmatched since Shinra's technology is gone. I don't think you can just say that Shinra is somehow technologically deficient in regards to robotic weaponry. They're not one-offs, and they were used. The only problem is that Shinra was in crisis and not able to use them properly.

And even if they sent those units to the Northern Crater, you really think that'd make a difference? They'd just go haywire and either stop functioning or go berserk and kill people.
There's a difference between not using them properly and Rufus having to visit Rocket Town to personally steal a hobby craft to chase Sephiroth on. Or use the (unarmed) Highwind to go to the Northern Crater personally with less then half a dozen guards without any superpowers at all.

And yes. I think it would make a difference. Yuffie, with all the Materia at her disposal, is unable to fight the Tsviets head on. Cait Sith, is unable to fight Deepground head on. Cid feels his skills are better put to use behind the wheel of an aircraft rather then fight Deepground head on. Cloud would've probably taken down Rosso if their fight had lasted longer, but as it stands they were tied even. I do not view Barret, Tifa and Red XIII as so inheritly different from the the likes of Yuffie and Cid. Vincent eventually takes them down, but he has set backs and even needs to retreat before Behemoth Azul at times in Dirge of Cerberus. And Vincent did it with bullets and guns, implying that it does matter if the person whose finger is on the trigger is superpowered or not. These were the people that took down the Weapons and engaged Sephiroth and Jenova. I do actually think that Deepground could've played that role instead if Heidegger and Scarlet hadn't decided they'd definitely rather die then use a single resource from Deepground.



Are you forgetting all of the literal old Kalm-like buildings and broken city structures that are found within Deepground when Vincent infiltrates the place?

Yes, it's way underground. And way underground, there was a city. An old city that apparently was buried and forgotten that predates Deepground.
I'm not forgetting anything. It looking old doesn't make it canon as predating Midgar. Maybe this is just Argento's preferred asthetic since she's the only one attributed with making anything. As fas we know, canonically Midgar IS the name of city with the plate. There was no pre-plate Midgar. And Deepground started small with a single hospital and Mako Reactor in the caverns underneath Midgar, so it is described in the article you wrote. They didn't just not see those buildings were there back then.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#64
SOLDIER predates Hojo and Project S. Deepground started as a hospital for injured SOLDIERs. It then off shot as an attempts to make a better breed of SOLDIER. You may feel the rank and file of Deepground fell short of that goal if you wish but Shinra Mako-enhanced soldiers are still what is referred to as SOLDIER in the dub. Vincent is familiar with SOLDIERs, even though he got put in that coffin back when Sephiroth was still an experiment meant to lead Shinra to the Promised Land.
Yes, you're right it does predate it. But in the present of FFVII and beyond, SOLDIER is defined by that procedure which is not what DG uses. And if you look on the english materials and game, they do just call them all "Deepground Soldiers." The "SOLDIER" term is kept for either the type of warrior of the same name, or the DG variant that exists. Those are SOLDIERs, not every member of Deepground.

You grade this below the submachine gun and plain stick given to the rank and file Shinra MPs?
It wasn't about grading an MPs gun above a DG soldier's, it was pointing out that the weapons used by DG soldiers are retrofitted. They are upgraded Lee Enfield Rifles. They're wood and metal. As you see, a Shinra MPs gun is fully modern and not a retrofitted upgrade of an older gun. The point was that apparently, DG soldiers had to utilize older weapons to work.

There's a difference between not using them properly and Rufus having to visit Rocket Town to personally steal a hobby craft to chase Sephiroth on. Or use the (unarmed) Highwind to go to the Northern Crater personally with less then half a dozen guards without any superpowers at all.
Shinra had at least two working Gelnika aircrafts with bombing capabilities in Junon as well, you know. Yet, Rufus chose to ignore them. You see the plane the first time you visit Junon, chillin' on the airport. So yeah.

Rufus had several means to fly to the Northern Crater. But he wanted the Highwind. Why? That's his choice. Maybe he doesn't like military aircraft, but just because he wanted the Tiny Bronco doesn't mean it was the only option, or last resort. There clearly were aircraft Shinra had at their disposal.

In fact, by Reno's own admission, The Sunken Gelnika was on a mission to the Northern Crater but was shot down by a Weapon. Presumably, Emerald Weapon. It was filled with monsters and weapons to fight Sephiroth, and low and behold. You see what happened to it.

Rufus went to the Northern Crater on the Highwind because he didn't think he needed anything else.

And yes. I think it would make a difference. Yuffie, with all the Materia at her disposal, is unable to fight the Tsviets head on. Cait Sith, is unable to fight Deepground head on. Cid feels his skills are better put to use behind the wheel of an aircraft rather then fight Deepground head on. Cloud would've probably taken down Rosso if their fight had lasted longer, but as it stands they were tied even. I do not view Barret, Tifa and Red XIII as so inheritly different from the the likes of Yuffie and Cid. Vincent eventually takes them down, but he has set backs and even needs to retreat before Behemoth Azul at times in Dirge of Cerberus. And Vincent did it with bullets and guns, implying that it does matter if the person whose finger is on the trigger is superpowered or not. These were the people that took down the Weapons and engaged Sephiroth and Jenova. I do actually think that Deepground could've played that role instead if Heidegger and Scarlet hadn't decided they'd definitely rather die then use a single resource from Deepground.
I mean, you can think that, but Sephiroth is the strongest SOLDIER and beyond the Tsviets, and that's not even a debate. Nothing in their abilities or arsenal would be a problem to him whatsoever.

The thing DG had over the heroes in DC were sheer numbers, weaponry and extremely dangerous abilities held by their leaders that were lethal on contact. Nero the Sable's darkness ability "removes" any living creature and kills it, save for things with an affinity to darkness. Weiss was Omega, period. Yes, the main characters wouldn't just be able to solo them at all. But.

Rosso by your own admission could be beaten by Cloud on his own. Hell, Vincent manages it. Her unique skill is her durability and raw power, but that's not something Cloud hasn't shown. Or Vincent.

Azul as a Behemoth is dangerous because he's a big monster with shield materia that prevents him from being harmed, but once it's broken? Vincent beats him solo, and easily destroys him with Chaos. Azul is only dangerous to normal people. Hell, he's a behemoth. Behemoth are fought and taken down by the heroes all through Midgar and the Northern Crater. SOLDIERs (like Zack) spar and beat them solo. A Behemoth is not the highest threat to actually powerful warriors. Azul's powers are not the height of the Tsviet's by a long shot.

I'm not forgetting anything. It looking old doesn't make it canon as predating Midgar. Maybe this is just Argento's preferred asthetic since she's the only one attributed with making anything. As fas we know, canonically Midgar IS the name of city with the plate. There was no pre-plate Midgar. And Deepground started small with a single hospital and Mako Reactor in the caverns underneath Midgar, so it is described in the article you wrote. They didn't just not see those buildings were there back then.
So, then why would they show it? It's not a "preferred aesthetic" to anyone because it's shown to clearly predate the modern facilities of DG and Shinra that are within the area. Why would Deepground purposefully construct broken architecture and dilapidated buildings? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. The setting presented those ruins of a city for a reason, and the most logical conclusion is, those are the ruins of a city that even predated what DG put there. It clearly may have been something to use for another game, but it was certainly not created by DG like some fake OOPart.
 
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Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#65
Yes, you're right it does predate it. But in the present of FFVII and beyond, SOLDIER is defined by that procedure which is not what DG uses. And if you look on the english materials and game, they do just call them all "Deepground Soldiers." The "SOLDIER" term is kept for either the type of warrior of the same name, or the DG variant that exists. Those are SOLDIERs, not every member of Deepground.
Deepground gets its recruits from the SOLDIER program to begin with. There are others who are born in Deepground itself, but we are not told that Deepground neglected to start using the new SOLDIER method for their SOLDIER army in addition to everything else they do.

The only one who definitely does not bear Jenova cells is Weiss, who is singled out as the one pure vessel either in Deepground. But Weiss is still treated as a SOLDIER, wears SOLDIER gear out in the field and is the most powerful warrior in Deepground, at least until Genesis gets there. So I don't see how this is a useful distinction.

It wasn't about grading an MPs gun above a DG soldier's, it was pointing out that the weapons used by DG soldiers are retrofitted. They are upgraded Lee Enfield Rifles. They're wood and metal. As you see, a Shinra MPs gun is fully modern and not a retrofitted upgrade of an older gun. The point was that apparently, DG soldiers had to utilize older weapons to work.
A Shinra GUn is also wood and metal. And don't get those snazzy mako bits on it. Their sticks are definitely wood, an older weapon technology then even the Lee Enfield, if I have my history straight.

Shinra had at least two working Gelnika aircrafts with bombing capabilities in Junon as well, you know. Yet, Rufus chose to ignore them. You see the plane the first time you visit Junon, chillin' on the airport. So yeah.

Rufus had several means to fly to the Northern Crater. But he wanted the Highwind. Why? That's his choice. Maybe he doesn't like military aircraft, but just because he wanted the Tiny Bronco doesn't mean it was the only option, or last resort. There clearly were aircraft Shinra had at their disposal.

In fact, by Reno's own admission, The Sunken Gelnika was on a mission to the Northern Crater but was shot down by a Weapon. Presumably, Emerald Weapon. It was filled with monsters and weapons to fight Sephiroth, and low and behold. You see what happened to it.

Rufus went to the Northern Crater on the Highwind because he didn't think he needed anything else.
Rufus does ask about the Gelnika but gets a bit of a non answer. I don't think they were operational at the time but in any case Rufus was clearly horrendous, obviously wrong. And after they escaped near death and the intrument of their doom appeared in the sky they should've gotten serious but they didn't. Yeah, the Sunken Gelnika was a step in the right direction. DG is the equivalent of that operation times a thousand. At least!

I mean, you can think that, but Sephiroth is the strongest SOLDIER and beyond the Tsviets, and that's not even a debate. Nothing in their abilities or arsenal would be a problem to him whatsoever.

The thing DG had over the heroes in DC were sheer numbers, weaponry and extremely dangerous abilities held by their leaders that were lethal on contact. Nero the Sable's darkness ability "removes" any living creature and kills it, save for things with an affinity to darkness. Weiss was Omega, period. Yes, the main characters wouldn't just be able to solo them at all. But.

Rosso by your own admission could be beaten by Cloud on his own. Hell, Vincent manages it. Her unique skill is her durability and raw power, but that's not something Cloud hasn't shown. Or Vincent.

Azul as a Behemoth is dangerous because he's a big monster with shield materia that prevents him from being harmed, but once it's broken? Vincent beats him solo, and easily destroys him with Chaos. Azul is only dangerous to normal people. Hell, he's a behemoth. Behemoth are fought and taken down by the heroes all through Midgar and the Northern Crater. SOLDIERs (like Zack) spar and beat them solo. A Behemoth is not the highest threat to actually powerful warriors. Azul's powers are not the height of the Tsviet's by a long shot.
Sephiroth is beyond AVALANCHE and everything else Shinra has as well. AVALANCHE just decided to give it their best shot because it seemed better then just letting end of all life save Sephiroth's happen without even trying to put a real fight. Scarlet and Heidegger decided that actually, it is better to just let end of all life save Sephiroth's happen rather then trying to put a real fight. So even though they had the resources to send everything that could've possibly be contain in that Gelnika a hundred times over, they judged the situation not that important.

So, then why would they show it? It's not a "preferred aesthetic" to anyone because it's shown to clearly predate the modern facilities of DG and Shinra that are within the area. Why would Deepground purposefully construct broken architecture and dilapidated buildings? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. The setting presented those ruins of a city for a reason, and the most logical conclusion is, those are the ruins of a city that even predated what DG put there. It clearly may have been something to use for another game, but it was certainly not created by DG like some fake OOPart.
Mako Reactor 0 itself is a much older model


It could've only possibly been created after President Shinra created the first Mako Reactor, and has been in use the entire time since then. Yet it looks dilapidated and in disrepair. That the buildings they build over the past 40 years that aren't nearly as important as the Mako Reactors are in worse repair doesn't require whole nother subterranean civilisation to be explained in my eyes.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#66
Yes, you're right it does predate it. But in the present of FFVII and beyond, SOLDIER is defined by that procedure which is not what DG uses. And if you look on the english materials and game, they do just call them all "Deepground Soldiers." The "SOLDIER" term is kept for either the type of warrior of the same name, or the DG variant that exists. Those are SOLDIERs, not every member of Deepground.
This is a non-topic. They're all referred to with "ソルジャー" rather than "兵士" in Japanese.

Mako said:
It wasn't about grading an MPs gun above a DG soldier's, it was pointing out that the weapons used by DG soldiers are retrofitted. They are upgraded Lee Enfield Rifles. They're wood and metal. As you see, a Shinra MPs gun is fully modern and not a retrofitted upgrade of an older gun.
But the MPs's guns are wood and metal too. How does this not just imply a preferred art design aesthetic?

Mako said:
Azul's powers are not the height of the Tsviet's by a long shot.
Well, obviously. Rosso, Nero and Weiss were ranked as the most dangerous.

Mako said:
So, then why would they show it? It's not a "preferred aesthetic" to anyone because it's shown to clearly predate the modern facilities of DG and Shinra that are within the area. Why would Deepground purposefully construct broken architecture and dilapidated buildings? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. The setting presented those ruins of a city for a reason, and the most logical conclusion is, those are the ruins of a city that even predated what DG put there. It clearly may have been something to use for another game, but it was certainly not created by DG like some fake OOPart.
No, the most logical conclusion is that Deepground themselves turned many of their own buildings into ruins while killing each other out of boredom during the 2+ plus years they were no longer restrained yet were still trapped.

Buildings more towards the outskirts of the city look fine. The majority of the city, in fact, looks fine. It's only as you get closer to Mako Reactor 0 -- where most of the fighting probably occurred -- that everything begins to look like crap.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#67
Deepground gets its recruits from the SOLDIER program to begin with. There are others who are born in Deepground itself, but we are not told that Deepground neglected to start using the new SOLDIER method for their SOLDIER army in addition to everything else they do.

The only one who definitely does not bear Jenova cells is Weiss, who is singled out as the one pure vessel either in Deepground. But Weiss is still treated as a SOLDIER, wears SOLDIER gear out in the field and is the most powerful warrior in Deepground, at least until Genesis gets there. So I don't see how this is a useful distinction.
Youre right Deepground would have individuals who were part of SOLDIER amongst their ranks, but considering how the location of Jenova is top secret and no one in the Science Division save Hojo and presumably Gast were it even was, I just don't see that many scientists having access to it. Also I imagine Hojo was extremely territorial; I doubt he would allow sny other scientist to use Jenova in their own experiments. That's *his* baby.

And I'd say it's unlikely Nero has Jenova cells too, considering hos experimental origin. Same for Rosso. Maybe Azul got the SOLDIER treatment before being tossed into DG, it's unclear.

The only reason I distinguish the two is cause they come from different games and serve different purposes. I suppose functionally they're the same but they originate from two different programs and have widely differing goals.

A Shinra GUn is also wood and metal. And don't get those snazzy mako bits on it. Their sticks are definitely wood, an older weapon technology then even the Lee Enfield, if I have my history straight
Well yes they are but I think you can see how the MP models has a consistent modern aesthetic versus the juxtaposition of futuristic tech on WW2 era rifles. It's just an interesting observation on the weapon design that might allude to a supply issue. Full on future tech is for the high ranks while retrofitted tech is for the lower ranks.


Scarlet and Heidegger decided that actually, it is better to just let end of all life save Sephiroth's happen rather then trying to put a real fight. So even though they had the resources to send everything that could've possibly be contain in that Gelnika a hundred times over, they judged the situation not that important.
I mean, in their defense, a lot was going on. Shinra was busy trying to stop Meteor in space. They didn't come to the realization of stopping Sephiroth head on until much later when everything started to collapse. Cloud and the others had the benefit of knowing from the start that everything began and ended with Sephiroth.

Yeah, the Sunken Gelnika was a step in the right direction. DG is the equivalent of that operation times a thousand. At least!
I mean, in the end I doubt it would make much difference, lol. No one but the heroes were gonna make it through the crater and fight Sephiroth but Cloud and the others. Sephiroth would have no reason to bother with them.

This is a non-topic. They're all referred to with "ソルジャー" rather than "兵士" in Japanese.
Oh, well that's good to know. But interesting DG isn't capitalized here or anything. I thought that meant something.

No, the most logical conclusion is that Deepground themselves turned many of their own buildings into ruins while killing each other out of boredom during the 2+ plus years they were no longer restrained yet were still trapped.

Buildings more towards the outskirts of the city look fine. The majority of the city, in fact, looks fine. It's only as you get closer to Mako Reactor 0 -- where most of the fighting probably occurred -- that everything begins to look like crap.
... That does make sense. :mon:

I stand corrected. I never thought of that but it's been years and it's not like we got to see the Multiplayer mode gameplay or anything lol. But yeah. Good point.
 
#68
They do have materia and many autonomous robots. We see this.
Shelke carries one, and Azul has a Barrier (which he apparently can't recast himself.) That's it.

They have autonomous robots, but nowhere near the variety that bog standard Shinra has. They're all the same Black Widow with but few exceptions, with nothing like the range or durability of Shinra's high end gear.


Deepgrounds robots are shown to attack at a larger range then any of those robots have ever done. All those things you mentioned have only ever failed at being anti-personnel weapons. Vincent has actually needed to take the sky, send in a fleet of airships, or hop on a turret to deal with Deepground's mechanised units..
He can and does take them on fine. He needs the fleet of airships because they're going to war, to crush them wholesale. AVALANCHE does raids, they don't try to defeat the entirety of the Shinra army head on. The single shot we get of DGs mechs en masse is of them being flattened by that airstrike. The mechs that engage Vince don't particularly have a long range.

First of all, if that were true, the Weapons would have just won against AVALANCHE. Secondly, every person in Deepground is a superpower SOLDIER, not just a Tsviets. It is a superpowered army that needs it own city and it's own Mako Reactor to support. No, that is not something Shinra is ever even suggested to have anywhere else.
They did. AVALANCHE does little to stop any WEAPONs, it takes Sister Ray to do them significant damage. Until the endgame, by which point the player is cheating using gameplay glitches, foreknowledge, and custom tailored unique anti Weapon Materia.

The rank and file DG soldiers are firing the same guns as anyone else (possibly worse ones, as Mako points out.) Reeve and Shalua can take them on fine, they're not that special. They're more durable, but not enough to be decisive.

Crisis Core's CGI cutscenes don't lack capacity to show impressive stuff. But in it, Shinra's best weapons against it's enemies were SOLDIER First Classes, a bunch of garden variety footsoldiers and Weiss and Nero, whom they were willing to field.
We're very carefully kept away from the full on war scale battles, and in CC, we see a much wider and more dangerous range of robots than DG can field. Weiss and Nero are deployed in specific circumstances where no one is likely to see them. And they fail their mission.

Deepground kidnapped 1200 people in Junon in a single day and depopulated the entire city of Edge.
Junon is likely Nero's work, he has an established ability to disappear people without people standing beside them noticing. Some of the Edge natives escaped, hence the WRO getting word of it being 'under attack.' Nero and Rosso are also active in Edge (shown in a cutscene), and were personally engaging the WRO squad sent there.

And those suits, each and every one of them, look a hell of lot more advanced then what the normal SOLDIERs and Shinra MPs are slumming it with.
How about the Senior Grunt or Mighty Grunt Armour the Shinra Army's officers wear? Shinra's Guard Scorpion seems more advanced than the Black Widows are by itself. Airbuster and Proudclad are unique because they're new prototypes (even so Dio has one too and we see a second Guard Scorpion (as well as many other models) in CC. Shinra's Death Machines. Moth Slashers etc, are not in particularly short supply. Everything DG has (flying mines, Guard Hounds, Sweepers, Red Saucers) Shinra has too, as well as upgraded versions.

Per Shalua, 500 people is the total population of Edge. It's huge, but virtually empty.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#69
Shelke carries one, and Azul has a Barrier (which he apparently can't recast himself.) That's it.

That's not even close to true. Materia is shown and used by almost all other DG soldiers that are in the multiplayer mode. They get to use assigned magic materia.

In the main storyline DG elites carry shield materia that block bullets too. So no, they definitely do have materia. I mean, why wouldn't they?

They did. AVALANCHE does little to stop any WEAPONs, it takes Sister Ray to do them significant damage. Until the endgame, by which point the player is cheating using gameplay glitches, foreknowledge, and custom tailored unique anti Weapon Materia.
The Sister Ray only kills Sapphire and Diamond Weapon. Ultima, Ruby, and Emerald are terminated by Cloud and his crew.

And I dunno why you say "gameplay glitches" and "foreknowlege" as if it's hard to fathom or accept they can lose. The Weapons are like glorified kaiju. They're big, dangerous to normal people, but they can and do get killed in battle. The Diamond Weapon is the only one who legit can't be harmed because he's got diamond-like armor.

Why else do you think Cloud and the others beat up Bahamut Tremor for free?

The rank and file DG soldiers are firing the same guns as anyone else (possibly worse ones, as Mako points out.) Reeve and Shalua can take them on fine, they're not that special. They're more durable, but not enough to be decisive
Right, but to be fair, it's like you said. "Rank and file." DG soldiers of trooper rank are minimal threat. But go up the ranks to Commanders, Heavy Arms, or Elites and they're dangerous.

Those are the ones that aren't just the equivalent of Star Wars stormtroopers.

Per Shalua, 500 people is the total population of Edge. It's huge, but virtually empty.
No no no. That's not true at all. There's way more than 500 people total in Edge's population. For one, Shalua never said the whole population of Edge got captured. She said 500 are missing, which was after Edge was evacuated. The rest are presumed relocated or something else. But no. Edge was built zn inhabited by refugees from Midgar around the remains of Sectors 3 and 4.

There is definitely more than 500 people combined, between. The populations of Sectors 3 and 4 and the entire refugees of Midgar. That makes zero sense to assume.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#70
The way Shalua words it did kind of suggest there were only 500 people in total living there. Doesn't make any sense, of course, so maybe it was just worded awkwardly.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#71
They have autonomous robots, but nowhere near the variety that bog standard Shinra has. They're all the same Black Widow with but few exceptions, with nothing like the range or durability of Shinra's high end gear.

He can and does take them on fine. He needs the fleet of airships because they're going to war, to crush them wholesale. AVALANCHE does raids, they don't try to defeat the entirety of the Shinra army head on. The single shot we get of DGs mechs en masse is of them being flattened by that airstrike. The mechs that engage Vince don't particularly have a long range.

We're very carefully kept away from the full on war scale battles, and in CC, we see a much wider and more dangerous range of robots than DG can field.
When? Where do these mechs show more range and dangerous then Deepground.


The entire area of Midgar, the largest city of the world blanketed in gun and missile fire in this battle. If this is what Diamond Weapon or Zack faced on their approach to Midgar, I'd say Shinra was doing their best job defending itself. That is not what happened. What they got by comparison was a light breezy stroll

The rank and file DG soldiers are firing the same guns as anyone else (possibly worse ones, as Mako points out.) Reeve and Shalua can take them on fine, they're not that special. They're more durable, but not enough to be decisive.
So does Vincent. He uses a handgun in FFVII. Barret uses a rifle, others use blade weapons or fists or claws. It's by weapons such as these that Ruby, Emerald and Omega Weapon were destroyed.


Weiss and Nero are deployed in specific circumstances where no one is likely to see them. And they fail their mission.
Their mission was to retrieve Genesis. They succeeded. Didn't have to put any of the work in though. If they knew all they needed was a helicopter and a guy to carry Genresis in their arms, I'm sre they would not have bothered with Weiss and Nero. But because they thought a dangerous SOLDIER First Class bent on destroying Shinra was on the lose, they proteted their interests by dispatching their most powerful and capable warriors left to eliminate the threat. Which is good. More of this please.


How about the Senior Grunt or Mighty Grunt Armour the Shinra Army's officers wear? Shinra's Guard Scorpion seems more advanced than the Black Widows are by itself. Airbuster and Proudclad are unique because they're new prototypes (even so Dio has one too and we see a second Guard Scorpion (as well as many other models) in CC. Shinra's Death Machines. Moth Slashers etc, are not in particularly short supply. Everything DG has (flying mines, Guard Hounds, Sweepers, Red Saucers) Shinra has too, as well as upgraded versions.
What about them? Again, we never see these mechs do anything that suggests their carnage can't be contained in the room of a building, which most of them are. Not relevant in a fight against the Weapons.. Guard Scorpion in the Remake Trailer comes pretty close admittedly. Rufus was trying to fight the Weapons while Tifa was in a coma, Barret tells us this. I never interpreted this as actually just waiting for it to appear in front of sister ray's gun barrel for a week. A guy that can use Darkness to just disappear a Weapons head of it shoulders might have been worth a try for instance.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
#72
That's not even close to true. Materia is shown and used by almost all other DG soldiers that are in the multiplayer mode. They get to use assigned magic materia.
They just... choose not to use it at all in Dirge? Are those shields of the elites Materia or some kind of device? Anti bullet shields are pretty useless against Weapon and Sephiroth.

Right, but to be fair, it's like you said. "Rank and file." DG soldiers of trooper rank are minimal threat. But go up the ranks to Commanders, Heavy Arms, or Elites and they're dangerous.

Those are the ones that aren't just the equivalent of Star Wars stormtroopers.
Yes, but offensively they're all still just firing guns,

No no no. That's not true at all. There's way more than 500 people total in Edge's population. For one, Shalua never said the whole population of Edge got captured. She said 500 are missing, which was after Edge was evacuated. The rest are presumed relocated or something else. But no. Edge was built zn inhabited by refugees from Midgar around the remains of Sectors 3 and 4.
I could assume that Edge is a ghost town, as any refugees with the ability to go elsewhere did, especially after Bahamut flattened the place. Reeve never mentions any evacuation, and Shalua says 'where are the 500 people that are supposed to be living here?' not 'that were left behind.' or anything similar.

So does Vincent. He uses a handgun in FFVII. Barret uses a rifle, others use blade weapons or fists or claws. It's by weapons such as these that Ruby, Emerald and Omega Weapon were destroyed.
They were destroyed with things like Knights of the Round, Underwater Materia, Mime, and crazy unique limit breaks. I've never heard of anyone defeating Emerald or Ruby with Physical attacks only. You could do that with Ultima, but you need an airship for that, of which AVALANCHE have the only one.

In your clip, the Black Widows don't actually do very much. The anti air fire is done by the rocketeers, not the Widows, and they fire machine guns at undefined targets.

Translating RPG mechanics into shooter mechanics is tricky, but Vincent fights several Widows over the game, none of which do any great damage to the rooms they're fighting in. The one he fights at range in front of the WRO is limited to a slow easily dodged missile attack. He casually takes two at once at one point.

I read Barret's dialogue as 'Sapphire has repeatedly attacked Junon'. Shinra's strategy is fire Sister Ray, and use 'regular firepower in the meantime' ie. they don't expect it to work, it's just a stopgap until they can fire Sister Ray again, and that's with fixed artillery guns in play as well.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#73
Again, Yuffie has the bulk of Materia from FFVII and her Limit Breaks in Dirge of Cerberus, we see the effectiveness against Deepground this translates too, it's nothing to write home about.
 
#74
Eh, she takes on Rosso and escapes, even while having to haul unconscious Vincent along. By itself that's impressive. She's able to penetrate to the core of Deepground and sneak into the reactor. Yuffie likely can't take Rosso, but I'd give her a fair shot against Shelke and Azul.

She falls victim to 'sorry, this is a one player game' induced injuries a bit, and is otherwise incapacitated by Nero's Darkness, which seems basically unbeatable unless you're immune to it.

Junon does get lit up with everything Shinra has against Sapphire. It doesn't appear to do much.

Re superpowers and guns, the superpowers matter in relation to speed and tracking. Vincent can hit Weiss and Rosso when they're on the move, the average shooter can't do that. He can dodge Rosso shooting at him in Edge. Azul is durable, hitting him with gunfire isn't the problem, it's doing any damage when you do. At which point Vincent switches to materia in order to do him real damage, he can't do anything with guns. Rosso and Weiss are durable enough that you have to hit them a lot of times, like Zack, which isn't easy to achieve. It takes someone like Vincent to do that consistently.

Weapon is an Azul type target, where the problem isn't hitting a fast target, it's doing enough damage to hurt it. Sapphire takes everything Junon has, including one shot from Sister Ray and fixed, mounted guns, without slowing down. Rosso and Weiss hit extremely hard, but I doubt hard enough to topple a Weapon, especially one specifically immune to physical attacks. Bahamut takes a lot of hits from the gang before he goes down in AC, and he's just a summon, I'd expect the Weapons to be a lot tougher.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#75
Eh, she takes on Rosso and escapes, even while having to haul unconscious Vincent along. By itself that's impressive. She's able to penetrate to the core of Deepground and sneak into the reactor. Yuffie likely can't take Rosso, but I'd give her a fair shot against Shelke and Azul.

She falls victim to 'sorry, this is a one player game' induced injuries a bit, and is otherwise incapacitated by Nero's Darkness, which seems basically unbeatable unless you're immune to it.

Junon does get lit up with everything Shinra has against Sapphire. It doesn't appear to do much.

Re superpowers and guns, the superpowers matter in relation to speed and tracking. Vincent can hit Weiss and Rosso when they're on the move, the average shooter can't do that. He can dodge Rosso shooting at him in Edge. Azul is durable, hitting him with gunfire isn't the problem, it's doing any damage when you do. At which point Vincent switches to materia in order to do him real damage, he can't do anything with guns. Rosso and Weiss are durable enough that you have to hit them a lot of times, like Zack, which isn't easy to achieve. It takes someone like Vincent to do that consistently.

Weapon is an Azul type target, where the problem isn't hitting a fast target, it's doing enough damage to hurt it. Sapphire takes everything Junon has, including one shot from Sister Ray and fixed, mounted guns, without slowing down. Rosso and Weiss hit extremely hard, but I doubt hard enough to topple a Weapon, especially one specifically immune to physical attacks. Bahamut takes a lot of hits from the gang before he goes down in AC, and he's just a summon, I'd expect the Weapons to be a lot tougher.
Yuffie doesn't show anything suggesting she had Azul covered. Like you said, she gets to Deepground. nevertheless everyone says Vincent will have to be the one to take on the Tsviets, including Yuffie and her small mountain of Materia. So why is the likes of her a better fit against the Weapons and the assasult on the Northern Cave then anyone and everyone in Deepground either individually or combined?
 
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