SPOILERS Defending a Chapter 18 theory

[cold_spirit]

I was going to post this in the Chapter 18 spoilers thread, but I'm afraid it'll get buried rather quickly (everyone is currently freaking out over the Sector 7 plate lol).

Here I will try my hand at debunking the AU theory. First and foremost, let's define exactly what Whispers are. It's established that the Lifestream's flow (i.e. the cycle of life and death) is fixed from a planet's birth to its death. Those who try to alter that flow are disrupted by Whispers.

Red XIII: "Whispers. Perhaps best described as arbiters of fate. They are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course and ensure they do not."

Tifa: "Like capital D... 'Destiny'?"

Red XIII: "The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion."

Tifa: "And you're saying that that flow is somehow... fixed?"

Red XIII: "Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself."

I want to emphasize that Whispers come from an individual planet's flow of Lifestream. Not from a hypothetical planet in an alternative universe. Thus, the Whispers the party encounter are a sort of defense mechanism from their planet.

When the party first hears the Whispers howl, Zack's last stand is shown. It's a one-to-one recreation of the scene as it appears in Crisis Core, except now we see Whispers are among the Shinra troops. Given the previous definition from Red XIII, the Whispers are present because Zack is dangerously close to defying fate. The scene ends, and Aerith affirms that what they heard were the painful howls of the planet. Specifically, of those who returned to the planet. Again, she's talking about their planet, not some hypothetical planet in an alternative universe.

Aerith: "What you heard just now were the voices of the planet. Those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain."

The party proceeds to defeat Whisper Harbinger. They are literally destroying the concept of fate itself. And, again, the Whispers they've fought so far are from their planet. They did not defeat the Whisper Harbinger from a hypothetical planet in an alternate universe. However, defeating fate has consequences throughout time. Zack is shown having seemingly survived Shinra's assault. As Aerith claimed earlier, changing fate will change the building blocks of who they are.

Aerith: "I'm asking you help me. I know that, together, we can do this. But if we do... We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed... if we win... we'll be changing ourselves... I guess... maybe, that's why I hesitated."

In this new sequence of events, I speculate that Zack was somehow separated from Cloud, leaving only the Buster Sword with him. We will find out more in part 2.

So why is Stamp a different breed? I believe that destroying fate has consequences beyond what we've been shown so far. The change of breed is a nod to that. As stated in the loading screen bio for Stamp, he was "originally used as propaganda material during wartime." I think a change to Stamp implies a change to the Wutai War. This is pure speculation, but I think the party will find that the Wutai War is still raging on in the world they've returned to. Sorry to throw that out of the blue, but Yoshinori Kitase did state that they've left hints throughout the game as to where part 2 will go. I speculate that the subliminal mentions of the Wutai War are one of those hints.

So why isn't Barret dead? Why isn't the fall of the Sector 7 plate reversed? To be honest, I don't think Square thought very hard about the internal logic of everything. The ending is contrived as a means to bring Zack, adored by fans, into that lucrative Remake spotlight for part 2. In short, it's convenient.

As a side note, I don't think the party is dealing with a time-traveling, post-AC Sephiroth in the remake, which I've also seen theorized. I think the much more sensible reason Sephiroth is so clairvoyant is because he traveled the Lifestream, which has now been established as containing its own history. Sephiroth absorbed this knowledge and became aware of a threat that might even require the assistance of Cloud to overcome. But we won't know what that threat is until a future part.

Sephiroth: "Our world will become a part of it... one day. But I... will not end. Nor will I have you end."

Cloud: "This is...?"

Sephiroth: "The edge of creation. Cloud, lend me your strength. Let us defy destiny... together."

I feel a lot better getting all this off my mind! I'm sure some will disagree with what I've outlined here, but thanks for reading!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here I will try my hand at debunking the AU theory.

I'm confused. It sounds like pretty much your whole post is in support of the timeline being changed?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You know, the lifestream used to be spirit energy: the force that animated inorganic matter, made it organic, gave it life. Just like the material atoms of living creatures bodies returned to the soil when they died, their spirit energy was recycled into the planet and used to animate new organic entities. For something new to be born, something old had to die.

Now it's the river of fate?

 

[cold_spirit]

I'm confused. It sounds like pretty much your whole post is in support of the timeline being changed?

I'm arguing that the timeline has changed, yes. The way I've been interpreting discussion on the AU is that a sizable amount believe what we've see in the ending (Zack surviving, most notably) is in a separate universe from what's happening in the remake.

Haha, uh oh, is this all a big misunderstanding on my part? Well, I think I wrote down a nice overview regardless.

 

[Makoeyes987]

>States they will debunk split timeline theory.

>Proceeds to vigorously defend split timeline theory.

I'm sorry, I just thought that was hilarious.

But to seriously address a point.

So why isn't Barret dead? Why isn't the fall of the Sector 7 plate reversed? To be honest, I don't think Square thought very hard about the internal logic of everything. The ending is contrived as a means to bring Zack, adored by fans, into that lucrative Remake spotlight for part 2. In short, it's convenient.

This is an inconsistency one cannot just ignore and brush aside like that. If all of the previous hints were intentional lead up to the delineation and presentation of an alternate timeline, then why would they suddenly go to sleep and just throw their hands up in the air? You can't assume complete intentionality and course direction but then say they just sorta forgot half way through when it stops adding up.

I know people wanna rag on the writers and say they're just throwing whatever sticks, but if you're going to try to thread a needle of intentionality like that, you have to go all the way with it.

Zack being present in the ending could be simple reflection of the past, with the chips a red herring Easter egg meant to reference his role as a puppy in his own game.

Or it could be a marker of an AU. And if it is an AU, I think it's more than likely separated from the main story. However at this point, we don't really know.

 

[cold_spirit]

I request that my thread title be changed from "My attempt at debunking a Chapter 18 theory" to "Defending a Chapter 18 theory" lol

I guess between the original's timeline, the remake's timeline, and the hypothetical post-ending remake timeline, I got a bit mixed up. Honestly, I'm still confused!

 

[oty]

You know, the lifestream used to be spirit energy: the force that animated inorganic matter, made it organic, gave it life. Just like the material atoms of living creatures bodies returned to the soil when they died, their spirit energy was recycled into the planet and used to animate new organic entities. For something new to be born, something old had to die.

Now it's the river of fate?

It's kinda like....both tbh. Characters still speak about the Lifestream as the flow of life too. And I'm expecting Bugenhagen to continue that trait. I guess the Whispers part kinda overshadowed the more traditional part of the Lifestream in this game.

 

[cold_spirit]

This is an inconsistency one cannot just ignore and brush aside like that. If all of the previous hints were intentional lead up to the delineation and presentation of an alternate timeline, then why would they suddenly go to sleep and just throw their hands up in the air? You can't assume complete intentionality and course direction but then say they just sorta forgot half way through when it stops adding up.

Considering the remake's inconsistency with the destruction of the Sector 7 plate, I feel pretty confident saying there are some things Square just sorta forgot half way through.

Jokes aside, I'll give you my personal speculation: It is possible to defy fate in the remake's universe. The party is able to do it in the ending. Zack may have came the closest before them. With the defeat of Whisper Harbinger in the Singularity, a door is opened. Well, more like explodes, as seen with Zack getting blown off his feet. His will alone, much like the party's, has the power to defy fate. That is why fate changed for him.

It sounds abstract, but is thematically consistent with the remake's ending. Your will determines your fate. The tone and placement of the Zack scenes imply to me that he survived.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If Zack lives, then dying was not his fate.
If Zack dies, then living was not his fate.
It's nonsensical to speak of defying fate. If it can be defied, it's not fate.
Fate by definition is the destined outcome. Not the likely or probable outcome.
Have you learnt nothing from the Greek myths?
This will all end in tears.

 

[Roger]

If Zack lives, then dying was not his fate.
If Zack dies, then living was not his fate.
It's nonsensical to speak of defying fate. If it can be defied, it's not fate.
Fate by definition is the destined outcome. Not the likely or probable outcome.
Have you learnt nothing from the Greek myths?
This will all end in tears.

Barret DID die, he was resurrected, because the guardians of fate ordained it not to be his time to die. Now the guardians of fate are gone, who can't course correct stuff like this anymore.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Whatever happens to them is still their fate. So, clearly it was Barret's fate to be stabbed to death by Sephiroth and then resurrected by the Whispers.

 

[oty]

That's not the way the game treats fate. Sephiroth is actively above the will of the Planet and therefore it begs for a correction.

Yeah, if we talk about a even more broad aspect of fate, then yeah everything is destined. The game doesnt seem to deal with that. Fate is the will of the Planet and it can be overruled.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Then they should call it the will of the planet and not fate. It's just confusing otherwise.

I'm really not on board with the implicit suggestion that the planet is self-aware. Remember all the arguments we used to have about whether Jenova was conscious and self-aware, or simply a creature of instinct? I liked to think that the Planet generated Weapons in the same way that a mopani tree will generate chemicals to make itself taste bad when it's being chewed by an elephant.

And remember all those arguments about whether Sephiroth's will or Jenova's will was in control? And now we have a third will thrown into the mix, the will of the Planet, plus the wills of every individual in Avalanche and Rufus Shinra's will....

 

[Theozilla]

Something I’ve wondered is if the term that Japanese uses for “fate” has the same philosophical implications as it does in Western philosophy? Like maybe the concept/term that is used in Japanese isn’t viewed as rigidly in Japanese/East Asian culture, as it is in Western society?

 

[Claymore]

I always assumed the Planet had a will and was self-aware. I thought that was the entire purpose of Aerith's communion with the Planet in order to unleash Holy. And that the Weapons weren't released as just a knee-jerk reaction because it only happened once Sephiroth had the Black Materia.

Well that's my interpretation anyway.

 

[Wol]

Then they should call it the will of the planet and not fate. It's just confusing otherwise.

I'm really not on board with the implicit suggestion that the planet is self-aware. Remember all the arguments we used to have about whether Jenova was conscious and self-aware, or simply a creature of instinct? I liked to think that the Planet generated Weapons in the same way that a mopani tree will generate chemicals to make itself taste bad when it's being chewed by an elephant.

And remember all those arguments about whether Sephiroth's will or Jenova's will was in control? And now we have a third will thrown into the mix, the will of the Planet, plus the wills of every individual in Avalanche and Rufus Shinra's will....

Considering the Lifestream is an amalgamation of memories and will, I think it has intelligence... its the conscience of the planet.

 

[Theozilla]

Something I’ve wondered is if the term that Japanese uses for “fate” has the same philosophical implications as it does in Western philosophy? Like maybe the concept/term that is used in Japanese isn’t viewed as rigidly in Japanese/East Asian culture, as it is in Western society?

Does anyone who played with Japanese audio remember if they were using unmei, inochi, or sadame more in the Remake?
I do wonder if how the concepts are discussed in Japanese to a Japanese audience are significantly different in regards to philosophical context than they do for Western audiences in English or other Romance languages?

 

[Dark and Divine]

Sephiroth uses "Unmei" @ 22:51

And Aerith too @ 27:56

 

[Shademp]

In every piece of Japanese media I've devoured that uses the word "fate", the word has always been used as poetical nonsense fluff that is never even attempted to be scrutinized with logic and rigor. Admittedly, most non-Japanese media that try to talk about determinism usually fall flat and into contradictions too, if only because of a lack of discipline from the writers.

 

[Theozilla]

In every piece of Japanese media I've devoured that uses the word "fate", the word has always been used as poetical nonsense fluff that is never even attempted to be scrutinized with logic and rigor. Admittedly, most non-Japanese media that try to talk about determinism usually fall flat and into contradictions too, if only because of a lack of discipline from the writers.

Yeah, a lot of Japanese media I feel like uses the term(s) that we translate as fate, in the context of like societal roles/duties/intentions or like "plans" of deities that are specifically being either challenged or followed through by the narrative/characters, it's rarely ever used in the same way Western metaphysic/philosophy uses it in philosophical academia.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If it helps at all, 運命/unmei is the same word used in regard to FFXIII and FFXV a lot.

 

[argent_angel]

After everything Aerith said at the end of the game I got the impression that anything could happen beyond that point and that even the characters themselves could potentially change. Its hard to really conclude what Aerith meant by it all. How much could they change and in what ways? As far as timelines and alternate universe is concerned I don't know for sure if that is the route they are or could be going. I'm assuming that a year from now we'll probably look back at all this with a lot more understanding and reanalyzing our first impressions.

 

[Knights of the Round]

If Sephiroth’s not a time traveler, then how does he have a black wing already? He doesn’t have that before Advent Children, which takes place after the OG. Does he?

It could just be a stylistic change, but then you’re leaving it subject for ridicule amongst a community of fans that have been dissecting your work down to the microbe for 23 years. Not likely.

 

[Theozilla]

Considering that they gave Genesis and Angeal wings in Crisis Core, I am pretty sure it’s just a stylistic change. I really doubt people like Nomura and Nojima care much about “ridicule from fans”.

 

[Dark and Divine]

And considering that we see black feathers being synonimous with Sephiroth since pratically the beginning of the Remake, it didn't surprised that much that he already sported the wing.

Though it will be interesting to see what they will do with Safer Sephiroth.