Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
A claim like that deserves to be dismissed with the same amount of speed that was expressed in cobbling together such a vacuous statement.

A claim with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence. What behavior is "incel?" No evidence or analysis even is posited, it's merely automatically assumed.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Oh, the evidence supplied is that Vincent blames Hojo for Lucrecia's actions, which shows a lack of respect for her own ability to make choices, which is in turn misogynistic.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Who's the head of the Jenova Project?

Who's idea was it to use Sephiroth as a sample?

Who's the one left debilitated and sick from the experimentation?

Really not seeing the logic here. Hojo is responsible. Vincent's not showing a lack of respect, he's emotionally invested and concerned for Lucrecia because of his feelings for her. That's not misogynistic behavior, do they even know what the word means?

If Vincent were more removed and impartial he would be less sympathetic to Lucrecia because of what she did, but he clearly is not. Why would he pretend he wasn't when his primary motivation is her protection and the welfare of the child?

The argument is incoherent as it's claim. Misogyny means caring about a woman. Right.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
I think all the info we are given about that in canon is unreliable because it is from Vincent's POV, and a lot is open to interpretation. Personally, I quite like "problematic" interpretations of Vincent, as opposed to "nice guys finish last" "poor schmuck" Vincent.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
Oh, the evidence supplied is that Vincent blames Hojo for Lucrecia's actions, which shows a lack of respect for her own ability to make choices, which is in turn misogynistic.

I'm a big fan of bodily autonomy and will go absolutely feral over people attempting to control the personal choices of others. However, there are a couple pretty major things going on here that make it different from if she were getting, say, an abortion, or even a boob job.

1) It's unethical as all fuck. She is not just experimenting on herself, but also on her unconsenting child. We're not talking about an embryo that is going to be used for a study and subsequently destroyed early in development. We're talking about an embryo that she and Hojo have every intention of allowing to grow into a full autonomous human being. It's not just about her anymore. If you believe Vincent is the father and knows it, his reaction is even more justified.

2) It's possible that he saw it as a deliberately self-destructive decision on her part. Not just a choice about her body, but an act of intentional self-harm. I'm not sure about the case of OG Lucrecia, but this interpretation would be very consistent with what we see from DoC Lucrecia IMO. He doesn't just see her making a personal choice he doesn't approve of; what he sees is her putting herself in harm's way out of a sense of self-loathing and Hojo fully recognizing this and still enabling her. It's like if he walked in on her playing Russian roulette and Hojo was showing her how to rotate the cylinder; technically, her choice, but one where intervention is entirely justified, and one where Hojo's role is absolutely unacceptable.
 
Last edited:

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
Yeah I think there can absolutely be nuance here. Vincent isn't completely pure and perfect in his intentions and actions but he isn't a complete "misogynist incel" or whatever either. It's complicated, much like real life, which I'd hope is part of why this bit of the story really grabs people.

Mobius sums up Vincent's justifications above and they're very reasonable. But he is also insisting that he gets a say in the actions and decisions of a woman who is either his ex or someone he has unrequited feelings for that were not acted upon, and there's a lot of complicated things to unpack there.

Is it likely that he sat down with himself, sorted through whether his concerns stemmed from the very real ethical issues going on, or were more to do with his jealousy, and then acted on them? No, it seems likely the whole thing was a big mess of angry feelings, some of which are noble and altruistic and some of which are less so.

Which is realistic! You can absolutely see how from Lu's pov, her ex lover and/or bodyguard is suddenly inserting himself into her career and life choices, and (I forget the exact details of what we see in DoC so might be wrong here but) basically goes over her head to confront her partner about it when he doesn't get the answer he wanted from her.

No one in this situation is perfect. Vincent isn't an angel who did nothing wrong, he's not a pure misogynistic monster, but his actions can be interpreted as being informed by a level of misogyny that's pretty typical, as well as very justified arguments about Lu and Seph's wellbeing. Which is a lot more realistic to these kinds of situations in real life (although yeah I accept real life probably has fewer aliens involved)!

EDIT: Also because I saw this originated on Discord I just wasted like an hour reading through the last 2 days of discussion on there as procrastination from having to pack (we're moving). Unsure if this is a good thing or not.
 
Last edited:

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Yes. It does.

I know what scene they're referring to. It's not during a flashback of the Jenova Project.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LNK

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
That tweet is about as accurate as any other game summary in a tweet. Technically true, but not really.

Vincent does everything he can to respect Lucrecia's choices and independence. When she marries someone else, he says 'if she's happy, then I don't mind'. He asks if she's sure about going ahead with the the project, and when she says yes, he accepts that and doesn't interfere. He's frankly more respectful of his love interest's autonomy than most of the other characters.

It may be one of those things with FF7 where the character is not what you would expect them to be, like rebellious teen Yuffie is assumed to be a modernising liberal when she's actually a traditionalist conservative. You would expect Vincent to have an old fashioned sense of ethics because he's been in a coffin for 30 years, but he is single strictest character in the games with regard to respecting his crush's autonomy.

He is explicitly not 'insisting he gets a say' and it couldn't be any clearer that this is the case. He asks if she is sure to make sure it is her decision and not forced upon her, and when he's clear that is is, he backs down, because if it is her decision, it's not his place to interfere.

This straight up could not be more wrong.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
To be clear, are you are responding to the claim that Vincent is a gaslighting misogynistic incel, and not the tweet about Hojo saying Vincent is obsessed with him?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But he is also insisting that he gets a say in the actions and decisions of a woman who is either his ex or someone he has unrequited feelings for that were not acted upon, and there's a lot of complicated things to unpack there.


Just want to clarify that that's not technically true. It's not so much a say, as it is a validation of her intent.
During their confrontation, Vincent explicitly makes it a point to see if she's okay with it, because he's apparently shocked that she would make that decision in the first place. He's under the mistaken belief that she's been coerced or manipulated into it. When she confirms that it's her choice, Vincent backed down immediately. This wasn't even about him having a "say" (although one could argue his concern comes from that given he does have feelings for her), he literally operates from the position of worrying that she's not the one deciding.

When she confirms she is "sure," he lets her go.

What's irrational is Vincent's guilt. And even then, that doesn't come from a place of misogyny or even chauvinism. Vincent feels responsible for her suffering because he couldn't save her from the harm she inflicted on herself. And that's how love works. When someone's loved one is hurt, lost or killed and they were present for it, even if they know, logically, they acted properly given the circumstances, that person can't help but feel responsible because of the outcome. "If only I could've..." Is the most common refrain from those saddled by regret and guilt. And that's exactly the "sin" Vincent carries. He regrets the past. Not specifically because he did something wrong, but because he couldn't change it for the better, even when it was out of his control. Especially given that she saved his life.

In the end, Vincent didn't know that the entire project could go wrong like it did, and he did the right thing in the first place. He's extremely naive and sensitive. And he wishes he did something in order to stop her from the path she willingly chose, and so he saddles himself with guilt unnecessarily.

Just like Cloud.
 
Last edited:

Redfang

Rookie Adventurer
She didn’t look Vincent through most of the confrontation. Not until she’s shouting her justification at him. To me her whole body language seemed to say she was anything but sure. What would she have said if Hojo hadn’t been in the room? In my observations people comfortable with their choices project confidence not something more like shame.

Just my two yen, though. ;)
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf

Just want to clarify that that's not technically true. It's not so much a say, as it is a validation of her intent.
During their confrontation, Vincent explicitly makes it a point to see if she's okay with it, because he's apparently shocked that she would make that decision in the first place. He's under the mistaken belief that she's been coerced or manipulated into it. When she confirms that it's her choice, Vincent backed down immediately. This wasn't even about him having a "say" (although one could argue his concern comes from that given he does have feelings for her), he literally operates from the position of worrying that she's not the one deciding.

When she confirms she is "sure," he lets her go.

What's irrational is Vincent's guilt. And even then, that doesn't come from a place of misogyny or even chauvinism. Vincent feels responsible for her suffering because he couldn't save her from the harm she inflicted on herself. And that's how love works. When someone's loved one is hurt, lost or killed and they were present for it, even if they know, logically, they acted properly given the circumstances, that person can't help but feel responsible because of the outcome. "If only I could've..." Is the most common refrain from those saddled by regret and guilt. And that's exactly the "sin" Vincent carries. He regrets the past. Not specifically because he did something wrong, but because he couldn't change it for the better, even when it was out of his control. Especially given that she saved his life.

In the end, Vincent didn't know that the entire project could go wrong like it did, and he did the right thing in the first place. He's extremely naive and sensitive. And he wishes he did something in order to stop her from the path she willingly chose, and so he saddles himself with guilt unnecessarily.

Just like Cloud.

Yeah, to be fair despite playing it before og vii, I'm probably remembering wrong exactly how that scene goes down. I'd remembered it as him confronting Hojo and getting shot, but forgotten he went to Lu first.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I feel like I'm missing something, because I'm unable to see where Vincent does any misogynistic/gaslighting/incel stuff. Then again, I haven't played Dirge, so maybe the issue arises from that game? Judging by the OG, I don't think I can see anything damning, hmm.
 

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki
If you ask me, Hojo exhibits some serious narcissistic tendencies. He ticks the boxes. And narcissists are always narcissists, in EVERY aspect of their lives, because they lack empathy and compassion (they may fake it, though), and don't actually love and care for anyone. They're also excellent manipulators and know which buttons to push to get their way. It's likely that he knew about Lucrecia's pain points and weaknesses, and exploited those to his advantage, and may possibly have love-bombed her, with some future-faking (false promises of a wonderful future together that they never actually intend - similar to what romance scammers do to milk their victims for money), and isolated her from people who care about her. Vincent being one of them. We don't know anything about Lucrecia's past - what her childhood was like, if she even has any living family and relatives, or friends outside of work. Could be that Grimoire was her only true friend - and by extension, Vincent. If Hojo knew this, then he would have been working on isolating her from Vincent.

The reality of abusive relationships is that, because there are deep wounds in the target of abuse, they easily get addicted to the drama and turbulence of the abusive relationship, and there is a strong sexual magnetism also. A healthy, happy individual says "fuck no, I'm out" as soon as they recognize that someone is toxic, and isn't attracted to or interested in drama. But people who are hurt, insecure in themselves, are vulnerable to manipulators and abusers. And the tragedy of it all is that it's addictive like a drug, and EXTREMELY hard to let go of, because you're always hoping that they will revert back to the loving person you first got to know, and that it will all work out. You may even feel like it's meant to be you and the other person. The target of abuse doesn't even recognize that they are being abused, because they are in a so-called FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

Narcissists can be tremendously charming and appear loving, but once they feel that they've "got" their victim (with marriage, pregnancy, living situation, the victim being financially dependent on the abuser etc), the mask slips and they show their true colors. They go from loving to cold, cruel and sadistic. The victim ends up thinking that it's their fault, and the narcissist will BLAME THEM for "changing". They'll gaslight the victim with "you made me do that", and make them believe that it isn't the narc, but the victim that's the bad person who deserves that kind of treatment. The sad truth is, though, that they were always a sadist, and that loving person they appeared to be never existed; it was all an act to get their victim to fall in love with them. Or work under them, invest in their business or whatever.

They will actively work on getting their victim dependent on them in some way, and will act jealous and might even throw a tantrum if their partner succeeds or outshines them in some way - they will blow it way out of proportion and won't let it go. (I want to remind you that a healthy, loving partner is PROUD of your accomplishments, happy for your wins and celebrates them with you.) Furthermore, they will either try to downplay your accomplishments, or take credit for them as if they were the ones who achieved them, not you.

I can definitely see this being the case with Lucrecia and Hojo. He likely showed her a side that he knew would get her to choose him, and once she got pregnant, he showed her who he truly is. A grandiose narcissist who feels no empathy, care and love towards anyone, and it was all a game to him.

I've been in an abusive relationship with a narcissist for many years, so I speak from firsthand experience. He essentially convinced me that he was the only one who really cared about me, even though he actively worked on tearing me down. He was jealous of my accomplishments, threw a fit whenever he wouldn't get his way, he would sulk for hours and sometimes even kept me up at night and made it all about him and I felt so confused by that behavior, and I ended up apologizing for "hurting" him, just to appease him. If I wanted time for myself, with friends, or just didn't want to spend all of my free time with him, he threw a fit and guilt tripped me into doing what he wanted. He would even say things like that "I should count myself lucky that he chose me and loves me, because I'm so hard to love that if he didn't, then no one would". He said it like he was doing me a favor. All of this at a time when I was already emotionally and mentally unstable; suffering with depression and suicidal tendencies at the time, and he pushed me to the edge of suicide. And when I was close to going through with it, he physically stopped me from doing it - which he took credit for later, and made himself out to be a hero and a savior.

That's the sort of psychological games they play, and it poisons your mind. After that relationship ended, I felt numb. I didn't know who I was. I didn't even know what I liked or disliked, because I was so numb and empty, I couldn't feel anything. I couldn't feel joy or gratitude or satisfaction. I couldn't appreciate things. I didn't even trust myself. I felt like I was dead inside. I had to literally start my life over from zero, rediscovering who I truly am, and it took me a decade of actively working on healing myself to get to a good place. That's what an abuser can do to you. I wanted to share this as a survivor to put things into perspective a little bit regarding abuse. Hope that sheds some light on things.

Edit: One last thing. When a narcissist feels they're losing control of their target, they will likely feel narcissistic injury, and try to exact revenge to feel like they've won or got the upper hand. This is usually when they murder their victim or go after someone they care about, usually their kids or current romantic partner. Hojo shooting Vincent, I would argue could be the result of narcissistic injury.

(Post was edited for more context)
 
Last edited:

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki
I feel like I'm missing something, because I'm unable to see where Vincent does any misogynistic/gaslighting/incel stuff. Then again, I haven't played Dirge, so maybe the issue arises from that game? Judging by the OG, I don't think I can see anything damning, hmm.

You're not missing anything. He didn't do any of that stuff. Anyone who says he did is projecting or misremembering. They apparently don't remember that he says "If she's happy, then I don't mind". That's real love; when you want someone to be happy, whether or not that's with you. It's a very mature, grounded mindset to have. Being heartbroken, sad and regretful after being rejected are very valid feelings, and certainly don't make someone toxic or an incel. Vincent let her go and didn't pursue her further after she expressed her wishes.

I think that people attribute the incel stuff to him because he was, well, let's be honest (and I mean this in a loving way)...a doormat. But being a doormat and lacking cojones/a spine has nothing to do with how you view or treat the opposite sex. It just means that for whatever reason, you're not secure enough in yourself to do what's right, or you're confused about what "right" is. It's not meant to be judgment on my part, just an observation.
 
Last edited:

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki

Just want to clarify that that's not technically true. It's not so much a say, as it is a validation of her intent.
During their confrontation, Vincent explicitly makes it a point to see if she's okay with it, because he's apparently shocked that she would make that decision in the first place. He's under the mistaken belief that she's been coerced or manipulated into it. When she confirms that it's her choice, Vincent backed down immediately. This wasn't even about him having a "say" (although one could argue his concern comes from that given he does have feelings for her), he literally operates from the position of worrying that she's not the one deciding.

When she confirms she is "sure," he lets her go.

What's irrational is Vincent's guilt. And even then, that doesn't come from a place of misogyny or even chauvinism. Vincent feels responsible for her suffering because he couldn't save her from the harm she inflicted on herself. And that's how love works. When someone's loved one is hurt, lost or killed and they were present for it, even if they know, logically, they acted properly given the circumstances, that person can't help but feel responsible because of the outcome. "If only I could've..." Is the most common refrain from those saddled by regret and guilt. And that's exactly the "sin" Vincent carries. He regrets the past. Not specifically because he did something wrong, but because he couldn't change it for the better, even when it was out of his control. Especially given that she saved his life.

In the end, Vincent didn't know that the entire project could go wrong like it did, and he did the right thing in the first place. He's extremely naive and sensitive. And he wishes he did something in order to stop her from the path she willingly chose, and so he saddles himself with guilt unnecessarily.

Just like Cloud.


Wow. That's very well said. Slow clap.
I wish I could like this post multiple times or give you a cookie, or something. Perfectly put!
Here, I give you this badge of appreciation:

:success:
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
He's not a doormat, he's being ethical. As her bodyguard, he is to a large degree in a position of power over Lucrecia, because as part of that job, he has the ability to do things like control where she goes and who she has contact with.

Consider how terrifying Vincent could be if he wasn't so ethical. He's a professional killer who is assigned to follow her around and protect her from other people. Even if he wasn't intending to, it would be very easy to be abusive by accident, because of the amount of control he necessarily has over her. Vincent knows that, and so he is being extra extra careful not to overstep her boundaries. If he has misgivings about Hojo, he would likely put it down to 'I'm still in love with Lucrecia, It's natural that I would not like anyone else she was in a relationship with'.

The thing is, in every other situation, Vincent's attitude is the correct one. Unfortunately in the situation he's actually in, he's dealing with Hojo.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Vincent is the worst Turk in history. Bullied and shot down by a scientist. He was a marshmallow, a shy idealist, a lonely Tim Burton protagonist. This is why he's great, mind you, but as a Turk he seems a bit out of place.

Vincent: I think --
Hojo: Shut up you nerd!
Vincent: *Walks away, head down, tears forming in eyes*
 

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki
He's not a doormat, he's being ethical. As her bodyguard, he is to a large degree in a position of power over Lucrecia, because as part of that job, he has the ability to do things like control where she goes and who she has contact with.

Consider how terrifying Vincent could be if he wasn't so ethical. He's a professional killer who is assigned to follow her around and protect her from other people. Even if he wasn't intending to, it would be very easy to be abusive by accident, because of the amount of control he necessarily has over her. Vincent knows that, and so he is being extra extra careful not to overstep her boundaries. If he has misgivings about Hojo, he would likely put it down to 'I'm still in love with Lucrecia, It's natural that I would not like anyone else she was in a relationship with'.

The thing is, in every other situation, Vincent's attitude is the correct one. Unfortunately in the situation he's actually in, he's dealing with Hojo.

He was ethical, yes. And you make good points, I'll give you that. But he was a doormat. It's not judgment, I'm simply calling a spade a spade. If someone in my life would have had a similar experience in their past, I wouldn't blame them, and would remind them that it wasn't their fault. Hindsight is always 20/20, and he didn't know then what he knows now.

I don't think there's much he could have done in the situation, anyway. I see no outcome in which he could have won. Let's say he managed to somehow convince Lucrecia to run away with him and ditch Shinra. We all know how well that turned out for Gast, Ifalna, and Zack. So, Vincent's hands were tied, no matter how we spin it. Which is why I personally don't think that he did anything wrong. But he was still a doormat to Hojo, and to Shinra Inc in general. Turks are basically like Shinra's lapdogs; they are professional assassins, yes. But they all serve a master, which automatically makes them order-followers, and obedient to a hierarchy above them that can, quite frankly, do whatever they want with them. (The thing about order-followers is that they are generally disposable, because like Tseng so bluntly put it: if they didn't do the job, then someone else would.) They probably believed in the Shinra propaganda of doing great things for humanity, of being the beacon of civilization and progress, so everything they do is justified and for the greater good. And Vincent was probably one of those who believed in all of that. Until Lucrecia, Hojo and Jenova. That might have been the first time he started to question Shinra's actions, and the first time he started to doubt his work. Vincent in his Turk days might have been good at his job, but he acted like a naïve idealist (which isn't in itself a negative thing).
 
Last edited:

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
Vincent is the worst Turk in history. Bullied and shot down by a scientist.

I've always tried to make sense of how on earth Vincent, a professional, let Hojo, an entire nerd, get the jump on him. The only way I've ever been able to make sense of it is by concluding that he absolutely never expected Hojo to be armed, let alone actually willing to shoot him. Hojo 30 years ago was not necessarily the clearly-insane Hojo of today. He may have been a giant prick, but I imagine him back then as being much cagier. He's not in charge yet, so he can't just stampede around doing as he pleases with a bottomless budget; he needs to play his cards closer to the chest. So I like to think that Vincent's fatal error was misreading the situation and underestimating of how crazy Hojo really was.

As far as getting bullied goes, it wasn't his job to stand up for his own dignity. His job was to protect the project and the personnel involved. Anyone who has worked security or done body guard work can tell you that being treated horribly by your employers/clients often comes with the territory (my brother has worked security, and he has stories.) Stoically taking abuse from self-important assholes is part of the job. And I don't imagine being a Turk is exactly a position you can rage quit.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
Let's say he managed to somehow convince Lucrecia to run away with him and ditch Shinra.

I don't know if any of you have seen Hanna, but the back story of that movie/show is basically if this exact scenario happened.
 
Top Bottom