Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know you speak in jest, but again, being pressured isn't the same thing as being manipulated. Manipulation is at its most effective when you don't even realise it's happening.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The tragedy sorta falls apart if Lucrecia was actually just an unwilling victim and all fault rests with Hojo and some mind games.

No one is advocating for that situation, though.

I suspect we simpy define manipulative differently. To me, the essence of manipulativeness is dishonesty, e.g. someone who pretends to be your friend to get an invitation to your island wedding, or a student who gives you expensive gifts because they 'just love your class', without saying upfront that what they really want are better grades. You're being maneuvered by someone who is concealing their true goal from you. Teenagers are often very manipulative because they don't have much real power.

A parent who says you you can't have any pudding until you've eaten your veggies, a prison guard who tells you he'll let you see your family if you spy on your cell-mate, a prosecutor who offers a plea deal in return for information... These people are not being manipulative. They're telling you what the deal is. Hojo is always completely honest about what he wants and what you have to do to gain concessions from him, and to me, that's not manipulative. Manipulation is a psychological game, and Hojo doesn't play those kinds of games, because he doesn't understand human psychology. Plus, he has all the power. He doesn't need to be manipulative.

PS Indeed, so bad is he at manipulation, he thinks that showing Aerith the bloody corpses of her friends and saying "Now talk!" is the way to go.

Would you generally disagree that trying to persuade someone they would be "coming to [their] senses" by choosing to give their feelings, energy, time, etc. to a romantic relationship in which they aren't loved and their wellbeing is of no concern (in direct contrast to the offering of a relationship where the opposite is true) -- especially for the purposes of acquiring something other than the actual relationship -- is plainly manipulative?

As @Makoeyes987 pointed out,

Just because Hojo's a demon in one facet of life doesn't automatically confirm he's manifesting those behaviors everywhere else. Especially in something as sensitive and significant as a relationship with a woman character who ends up pregnant with his child.

-- so does anyone really think Hojo would have managed "something as sensitive and significant as a relationship with a woman who ends up pregnant with his child" under circumstances where he's completely honest about his intentions and (lack of) feelings towards her?

She runs into his arms in a less-than-clinical fashion after all. There's a pretense of affection and romance here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

-- so does anyone really think Hojo would have managed "something as sensitive and significant as a relationship with a woman who ends up pregnant with his child" under circumstances where he's completely honest about his intentions and (lack of) feelings towards her?

She runs into his arms in a less-than-clinical fashion after all. There's a pretense of affection and romance here.

If I were to try to read the portrayal of his character, I would see it as Hojo not so much manipulating or creating a false pretense of affection and romance, but his entire perspective and relation to the concepts are warped by his very personality.

Remember, Hojo does love Sephiroth. He feels a fondness and attachment to his son, however it manifests in a very bizarre and twisted way. He takes pride in Sephiroth's accomplishments and power. Yet he also is aware of how Sephiroth feels about him and is content watching from afar. He takes a simultaneous clinical and parental interest in him. And ultimately tries to "help" him. Hell, he even masks his identity and portrays himself as an obsessed fangirl to run his fanclub. All to be close to him.

To me, whatever actual emotions and feelings Hojo has for others are warped to their very core. I could certainly see that being the case with Lucrecia's relationship, just like it was for Sephiroth's.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If I were to try to read the portrayal of his character, I would see it as Hojo not so much manipulating or creating a false pretense of affection and romance ...

The woman ran into his arms, not into his lab to kiss his bench sheets.

To me, whatever actual emotions and feelings Hojo has for others are warped to their very core. I could certainly see that being the case with Lucrecia's relationship,

More than one Ultimania is explicit that Hojo saw her as a lab instrument, though. And perhaps he is fond of his flasks and tweezers. However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that even as fooked in the head as she was, Lucrecia would not have been flattered by that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think to Lucrecia, a scientist who was obsessed with furthering her theories and research, she (mistakenly) saw a kindred spirit in Hojo. She also saw someone who was insecure, and in her own way wanted to protect him, maybe even help him. However she completely misjudged how maladjusted he was.

That's what Vincent took from their relationship, at least in the OG. So I can believe that Lucrecia did feel something for Hojo. There was some chemistry there before she realized what a true mad scientist he was. I don't think Hojo needed to mess with her mind to draw that initial attraction of her's.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But he did need to present something false for her to believe that he cared about her or would offer the nurturing most people expect from a romantic relationship. There's simply no way he presented himself as he truly is while attempting to court her, especially with a guy who genuinely adored her being the competition.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm saying that it's possible Hojo did care for her, but in a warped twisted way that became completely unhealthy for Lucrecia, upon closer inspection. Like, Hojo's way of "caring" about a woman who he shared interests with, would be something someone would find completely unacceptable. Sorta like the way he cared about his son Sephiroth. Especially when she became pregnant and was directly part of the experiment. The lines became blurred. I wouldn't be surprised if Hojo's lethal attack on Vincent was born from jealousy given Vincent's interest in his wife. And his snide commentary and mental abuse towards Lucrecia's attempts to save Vincent was him lashing out in jealousy too.

And maybe Lucrecia didn't want someone nurturing and adoring towards her. Especially if it came from the guy who was the son of the scientist she accidentally killed.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My headcanon, since we have no definitive evidence for this one way or the other, is that he did genuinely love her, in his way (which was not everyone's way). My headcanon is that after quite a lonely existence, he believed that in Lucrecia he had found his soulmate.

Would you generally disagree that trying to persuade someone they would be "coming to [their] senses" by choosing to give their feelings, energy, time, etc. to a romantic relationship in which they aren't loved and their wellbeing is of no concern (in direct contrast to the offering of a relationship where the opposite is true) -- especially for the purposes of acquiring something other than the actual relationship -- is plainly manipulative?

No, absolutely the opposite, and I'll tell you why.
1) As I said, we have no reason to suppose Hojo didn't love her. As Mako pointed out, he isn't incapable of love. It may not be a form of love that most of us would be satisfied with, but we're not Lucrecia. So if he told he her loved her, he wasn't lying.
2) She ran into his arms, and he welcomed that and gave her a huge hug
3) The mere fact that he would phrase it as "you've come to your senses" shows that he values logic over emotion and believes she does too. And there's no reason to suppose he was wrong about that.
4) They were partners, equals. They agreed together that they would do this experiment. We have no reason to think she was tricked or manipulated into agreeing to use their baby as a guinea pig. From his point of view, she betrayed him.
5) Sad to say, she didn't love Vincent. Sure, he was cute, but he was also not a sharpest knife in the drawer and in no way her intellectual match. Being doggedly, silently worshipped is not very exciting for a woman like Lucrecia. Hojo could offer her stimulating conversation and his respect for her intellect was something worth having.

So, Lucrecia, which will you choose? Will you be ruled by your hormones and choose the dumb Turk beefcake for whom you feel a misplaced sense of guilty responsibility? Or will you come to your senses and dedicate yourself to the great work that will change the course of humanity, with Hojo by your side?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

And maybe Lucrecia didn't want someone nurturing and adoring towards her. Especially if it came from the guy who was the son of the scientist she accidentally killed.

My understanding is that she *did*... and felt *guilty* for wanting/feeling that. Like... Lucrecia is the one bringing the wine and the picnic basket with her to their date with Vincent, not Vincent. That is... really weird if she doesn't have feelings for him.

Lurecia's constant feeling is guilt... and how it really effects her view on what is going on. To the point she is keeping herself from things she *likes* and is almost torturing herself. Everything in DoC that I can find about her makes it seem that Lucrecia felt guilty that she was falling in love with Vincent when she sees herself as the reason his father died. So she runs away from a possitive relationship because she thinks she *shouldn't* have a good relationship; she doesn't deserve it because of what she did in the past.

Then she feels guilty for being the reason Hojo experiments on Vincent... then she feels guity for wrecking her child's life... then she feels guilty for not being able to fix Vincent... and for Hojo *complimenting* her for going back to her days of experimenting... the very thing that killed Grimore and started her on her spiral of guilt in the first place. So Lucrecia does the one thing she can still do at that point and *not* hurt anyone in the process. She *leaves* everything behind to effectivly lock herself up and keep herself from wrecking any more relationships. At least from her perspective.

Like... no one saying Lucrecia didn't mess up. Her entire character arc is that she *knows* she messed up... and continued to mess up while trying to find some way to deal with the fact that she had messed up in the past. Which caused her to wreck even more people's lives in the process that she feels paralyzingly guilty over.

I'm saying that it's possible Hojo did care for her, but in a warped twisted way that became completely unhealthy for Lucrecia, upon closer inspection.

As I said, we have no reason to suppose Hojo didn't love her. As Mako pointed out, he isn't incapable of love. It may not be a form of love that most of us would be satisfied with, but we're not Lucrecia. So if he told he her loved her, he wasn't lying.

Abusers tell people they love them *all* the time. Just because someone *says* it's love doesn't mean it is. Hojo loves Jenova and Sephiroth. He does everything he can to give them what he thinks they want. He also (almost) completely wrecks an entire Planet's population in the process...

After a while... well... if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's a duck... even when it keeps saying it's a chicken. What Hojo's motives were/could be justified as from his own pont of view doesn't really matter; his actions say everything and his actions are that of a text-book emotional manipulator on more than one occasion. And that's not even tackling how he doesn't even seem to view most people as *people*...

Like... I have a really hard time seeing people say Hojo has a concept of love (even a twisted one) when he doesn't even think of Cloud and Zack as *people*... I highly doubt that's how he saw Sephiroth or Lucrecia. They're more his science toys he's playing with in a sandbox to prove his pet theories right than anything else... And people who view other people as toys... at some point you have to call them what they are.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, in the end it all comes down to how one interprets the characters, and the way they're currently written, they can be intepreteted in a variety of ways. Everyone's preferred interpretation is the one most meaningful to them. Ultimately, what this all boils down to is whether we think Hojo was lying to Lucrecia, and whether we think she agreed to the experiment not because she was an ambitious scientist dedicated to her career, but because she wanted to please him. I prefer to headcanon her as the former.

The Remake may yet give us a definitive version, just as it's come down pretty definitively on one side of the LTD.

Anyway I'll just add this
1. A woman can have feelings for more than one person. Lucrecia can be tempted by the chocolate-box and flowers romance with Vincent (though I don't think it could hold her interest very long) while simultaneously being attracted to Hojo and a life full of purpose and meaning. Having feelings for someone isn't the same as loving them.
2. Hojo thinks of Cloud and Zack as people. We know this, because he speaks to Cloud in the OG and the Remake like one human being to another. He simply doesn't see any reason why people can't also be specimens.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm going to stick with the Ultimania comments that Hojo just saw Lucrecia as a lab instrument and sample material. That's literally what they say.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Once again, canon takes potentially interesting, complex characters and reduces them to tropes. Though as time goes on and their canon contradicts itself more and more, we feel at ever more liberty to pick and choose.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Though as time goes on and their canon contradicts itself more and more, we feel at ever more liberty to pick and choose.

Oh, one hundred and fifty percent.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm going to stick with the Ultimania comments that Hojo just saw Lucrecia as a lab instrument and sample material. That's literally what they say.

That's not really new nor mutually exclusive to Hojo having feelings for her. He still carries emotions, urges, etc. But Hojo's method of interacting with people is warped. Him seeing even Lucrecia as a potential sample speaks to the fundamentally warped and deranged state of mind Hojo views people, including himself. All of life is an experiment to him. He sees things no other way. That's even stated as part of his character.

Once again, canon takes potentially interesting, complex characters and reduces them to tropes. Though as time goes on and their canon contradicts itself more and more, we feel at ever more liberty to pick and choose.

To be honest that's not really new or a retcon towards his personality whatsoever. He literally says this out loud.

Hojo
Ha, ha, ha...
I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project.
When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova...
HA, HA, HA!!

Cloud
I can't believe you're the one who did this...
The illusionary crime against Sephiroth...

Hojo
Heee, hee, hee, hee! No you're wrong!
It's my desire as a scientist! Heee, hee, hee, hee!

The fact is, Hojo views everyone through the lens of a mad scientist. However, that does not preclude him from having emotions or feelings. He demonstrates that quite explicitly throughout the story.

Whatever Lucrecia thought she saw in him, she clearly underestimated just how far Hojo would go to satisfy his scientific curiosity.

Abusers tell people they love them *all* the time. Just because someone *says* it's love doesn't mean it is. Hojo loves Jenova and Sephiroth. He does everything he can to give them what he thinks they want. He also (almost) completely wrecks an entire Planet's population in the process...

After a while... well... if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's a duck... even when it keeps saying it's a chicken. What Hojo's motives were/could be justified as from his own pont of view doesn't really matter; his actions say everything and his actions are that of a text-book emotional manipulator on more than one occasion. And that's not even tackling how he doesn't even seem to view most people as *people*...

Oh I'm not justifying it. You are 100% correct in that assessment of his personality. Anyone who would get close to Hojo would be subject to his deranged and dangerous expression of "love" that could easily result in one finding themselves in a specimen tank or whatever bizarre scheme he cooks up.

I'm just speaking from his own perspective and character. He's evil, but even evil characters feel love. They just don't feel or express it like most others do

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's not really new nor mutually exclusive to Hojo having feelings for her.

It kinda is, though, when presented with phrasing like "To Hojo, she was nothing more than a specimen to bear his son" or when his regard for her as a lab instrument is presented in contrast to Vincent's feelings, and as the incitement for Vincent's anger on the mako cannon.

Anyhow, I think I'm done with this topic. I may split all this off into its own thread so as to get its stranglehold off the main subject here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, that statement which summarizes the confrontation on the Mako Cannon states what Lucrecia ended up becoming to him thank to the Jenova Project. It's a stark contrast to Vincent's true, genuine feelings of love, yes.

But that doesn't speak to Hojo's feelings before they made that inhuman decision to use their own child as an experiment. I don't think Hojo planned ahead of time to seduce Lucrecia, get her pregnant, experiment on said pregnancy, and then have her give birth to a superpowered alien hybrid. LOL like that would be extremely unlikely.

 

[Ite]

Thank you to whoever split this thread <3

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Hojo thinks of Cloud and Zack as people. We know this, because he speaks to Cloud in the OG and the Remake like one human being to another. He simply doesn't see any reason why people can't also be specimens.

Um... where does this happen in the OG and/or Remake? I'd really like to know.

However, that does not preclude him from having emotions or feelings. He demonstrates that quite explicitly throughout the story.

Same with this. If someone could show me somewhere in the OG or Compilation where Hojo interacts with a person *as a person* that he respects/loves, I'd love to know where it is.

Cause I can find a lot more places where the opposite happens... especially with Cloud, Aerith and Red XIII in particular....

President Shinra
Hojo. How's the girl?

Hojo
As a specimen, she is inferior to her mother. I'm still in the process of comparing her to her mother, Ifalna, but for now the difference is 18%.

President Shinra
How long will the research take?

Hojo
Probably 120 years. It's probably impossible to finish in our lifetime. Or in the lifetime of the specimen too, for that matter.
That's why we're thinking of breeding her. Then we could create one that could withstand our research for a long time.

Cloud
Aeris!

Hojo
Aeris? Oh, is that her name? What do you want?

Cloud
We're taking Aeris back.

Hojo
Outsiders......

Barret
Shoulda noticed it earlier, you...

Hojo
There's so many frivolous things in this world.
Are you going to kill me? I don't think you should.
The equipment here is extremely delicate. Without me, who could operate it? Hmm?

Cloud
Ugh.

Hojo
That's right. I recommend you think things out logically before you make any rash moves.
Now, bring in the Specimen.

Aeris
Cloud, help!

Cloud
What do you think you're doin'?

Hojo
Lending a helping hand to an endangered species... Both of them are on the brink of extinction...
If I don't help, all these animals will disappear.

Tifa
...animal? That's terrible! Aeris is a human being!

Barret
You're gonna pay!

Cloud
Barret! Can't you do anything?

Barret
Awright!! Step back!

Hojo
Stop!!
Wh... what are you do-- Oh! My precious specimens...

Hojo
Hmm! I believe we're both after the same goal.

Cloud
You mean Sephiroth?

Hojo
Did you see him?
I see...... Ha! Ha!

Cloud
What is it?

Hojo
Nothing. I just remembered a certain hypothesis......
Haven't you ever had the feeling something is calling you?
Or that you had to visit some place?......

Cloud
I'll go anywhere Sephiroth is at!
To beat him and put an end to all this!

Hojo
I see...... This could be interesting.
Were you in SOLDIER? .......Heh heh heh! Would you like to be my guinea pig?

Hojo
Ha, ha, ha... this is perfect!!!
It means that my experiment was a complete success.
What number were you? Huh? Where is your tattoo?

Cloud
Professor Hojo... I don't have a number.
You didn't give me one because you said I was a failed experiment.

Hojo
What the--? You mean only a failure made it here?

Cloud
Professor... please give me a number. Please, Professor...

Hojo
Shut up, miserable failure...

Rufus
Who... was that?

Hojo
...He's a Sephiroth-clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago.
Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life.
...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven.
You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion.
I have been waiting for the Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have begun to return.
I thought the clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored.
But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building.
But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones himself.
I wondered where the clones were going, but I was never able to figure it out.
The one thing that I did know was that Sephiroth was at their final destination.

Hojo
Did you see it!! It's Sephiroth! So he IS here!
This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will!
They won't be diffused into the Lifestream,
but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......

Cloud
Hojo! Stop right there!!

Hojo
Oh... the failure.

Cloud
At least remember my name! It's Cloud!

Hojo
Every time I see you, I...
It pains me that I had so little scientific sense...
I evaluated you as a failed project.
But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone.
Heh, heh, heh...... I'm even beginning to hate myself.

Cloud
None of that matters... just stop this nonsense!

Hojo (pausing)
...nonsense?
Oh, this?
Ha, ha, ha...
Sephiroth seems to be counting on the energy.
So I'm going to lend him a hand.

Cloud
Why!? Why do that!?

Hojo
Quit asking me why, you moron.
Hmm... actually, you might be cut out to be a scientist.
Energy level is at...... 83%. It's taking too long.
My son is in need of power and help. ...That's the only reason.

Cloud
...your son?

Hojo
Ha, ha, ha... Although he doesn't know.
Ha, ha, ha... HA, HA, HA...!!
What will Sephiroth think when he finds out I'm his father?
Always looking down on me like that.
HA, HA, HA...!!

Cloud
Sephiroth is your son!?

Vincent
......!

Hojo
Ha, ha, ha...
I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project.
When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova...
HA, HA, HA!!

Vincent
You......!

Cloud
I can't believe you're the one who did this...
The illusionary crime against Sephiroth...

Hojo
Heee, hee, hee, hee! No you're wrong!
It's my desire as a scientist! Heee, hee, hee, hee!

Vincent
......
I was...... wrong. The one that should have slept was...
...You, Hojo!

Hojo
I... was defeated by my desire to become a scientist.
I lost the last time as well.
I've injected Jenova's cells into my own body!
Heee, hee, hee!
Here are......
Heee, hee, hee!
...my results!!

Like... That's all the times Hojo interacts with Cloud and Co. in the OG. And... pretty much the only reason he cares about Cloud is because of Cloud's value as a data point that proves his Reunion Theory. Same way the only reason he cares about Aerith is as a data point for the Cetra. Hojo doesn't interact with them because they're people. He interacts with them because that's how he can gain information about if his theory is right or not. Everything about Hojo (by his own admition!) has to do with how it can further his obession with proving his theories right.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You can be a monster and still feel emotions.

I'm not saying he feels or expresses emotions in a healthy, normal way. But emotions are emotions. As I said before, he feels something akin to fatherly love and pride in Sephiroth. He also feels stung at the fact Sephiroth looks down at him as well.

And him cyberstalking his own son so he can get close to him via a fanclub is pretty insane. But that's Hojo and his warped expression of interest and attachment to his son.

I dunno if I'd say Hojo viewed Cloud and Zack as people though, lol. It might be safe to say that to Hojo... "People" are no different than "samples," no matter who they are. Even himself. Because life is in and of itself an "experiment."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Obsidian - I think the difference between us is that for you it's either/or: if Hojo is treating someone like a scientific experiment, he cannot see them as a person. For me, though, it's both: he knows that Cloud, Zack, Aerith etc. are people, but he doesn't see why they shouldn't also be specimens. They're his specimens in the same way that a coach's athletes are his players. He converses with them, reasons with them, and sometimes even explains things to them. You don't do that with a petrie dish.

I mean, that statement which summarizes the confrontation on the Mako Cannon states what Lucrecia ended up becoming to him thank to the Jenova Project. It's a stark contrast to Vincent's true, genuine feelings of love, yes.

But that doesn't speak to Hojo's feelings before they made that inhuman decision to use their own child as an experiment. I don't think Hojo planned ahead of time to seduce Lucrecia, get her pregnant, experiment on said pregnancy, and then have her give birth to a superpowered alien hybrid. LOL like that would be extremely unlikely.

I agree with Mako.

When it comes to the nitty-gritty, there are two main ways this could have gone down. Hojo could have devised the S-SOLDIER experiment all by himself, then when he met Lucrecia, identified her as a suitable womb in which to grow his specimen, and set about tricking her into love and marriage so that he could use her.
Or
He and Lucrecia could have found themselves working on the Jenova project together, could have found themselves engaged in long involved conversations about why Gast's approach was wrong, thus growing closer and closer and developing the idea for the project together until one of them - maybe Hojo, maybe Lucrecia - suggested using themselves and their own baby as the experiment. You're probably aware that a long history exists of scientists experimenting on themselves. In the beginning they were equal partners, equally onboard, equally enthusiastic... Then Lucrecia slowly began doubting herself and changing her mind. And turning away from Hojo back towards Vincent.

Ha, ha, ha...
I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project.
When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova...
HA, HA, HA!!

Vincent
You......!

Cloud
I can't believe you're the one who did this...
The illusionary crime against Sephiroth...

Hojo
Heee, hee, hee, hee! No you're wrong!
It's my desire as a scientist! Heee, hee, hee, hee!

Vincent
......
I was...... wrong. The one that should have slept was...
...You, Hojo!

The English in this passage is so incoherent, there's no way of clearly determining what it means. Vincent sounds like this is the first time he's heard that Hojo experimented on Lucrecia and injected Jenova into Sephiroth. And Hojo clearly did not "give" Lucrecia to the project, as if she were a box of text tubes he'd ordered. She was an active participant, of her own free will. The fact that he talks about her like this now, some thirty years later, is no proof of what he felt for her at the time. Have you ever seen how I talk about my ex-husband? Yet once upon a time I would have died for him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When it comes to the nitty-gritty, there are two main ways this could have gone down

There's a third -- in my mind -- more simple possibility, where it began as your second suggestion, then turned into your first. Hojo has to know the specimen stands a better chance of being a healthy result with a cooperative, even eager petrie dish/mother. Makes the most sense that it remain the one who was in mind when the idea was conceived, and who presumably will still be working on the project anyway.

 

[Roundhouse]

The Remake may yet give us a definitive version, just as it's come down pretty definitively on one side of the LTD.

Now hold on just a minute there!

 

[ForceStealer]

^That did seem a dangerous line, I hoped it would pass unnoticed

But yes, I agree with Lic and Mako. Lucrecia was not some hapless fool that was somehow swooned by Hojo. Honestly, the idea that Hojo could swoon anyone is far less believable to me than him loving someone.
As Rufus observed, he's dull. I can much more easily see that another ambitious, vainglorious scientist could be attracted to his mind than he could woo some doe-eyed chick. There is the matter of his 'attendants' in Costa del Sol, but I figured that was a money thing

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't know what it is about this particular subject that seems to invite tilted descriptions and men made of straw ...

 

[ForceStealer]

I mean part of it is a held "tongue" for pages of discussion and then tonight I'm drinking

But also there was obviously hyperbole at play. My point is that I think Hojo and Lucrecia had a real relationship, however corrupted by ambition. And I don't love the view that "Well how could she NOT have liked Vincent? He's just so DREAMY." Unrequited love makes him more interesting than the object of his affection just being dumb.