Difference Between Cloud and Other SOLDIERs

[hleV]

Is there a physical difference? Is Cloud supposed to be stronger than other SOLDIERs, or he just is (you know, just like everyone from the main cast randomly being 10-100 times stronger than humans)?

What kind of experiment did Hojo do with Cloud (and Zack)? Supposedly they were injected Jenova's (or Sephiroth's?) cells and showered in Mako, which should be close to what normal SOLDIER candidates go through. However, considering that the experiment was made with Zack as well, albeit unsuccessfully, suggests that it was different. How exactly this experiment differs from the process of making SOLDIERs? Is it because it's Sephiroth's cells that were injected, as opposed to Jenova's (whatever difference that would make)?

 

[Telcontar]

Is there a physical difference? Is Cloud supposed to be stronger than other SOLDIERs, or he just is (you know, just like everyone from the main cast randomly being 10-100 times stronger than humans)?

No. He just has nice hair.

What kind of experiment did Hojo do with Cloud (and Zack)?

Injected S Cells in them with the usual: Mako, sugar, spice and everything nice.

which should be close to what normal SOLDIER candidates go through.

How exactly this experiment differs from the process of making SOLDIERs?

Not really.

SOLDIER = Mako only.

-

You should play Crisis Core if you haven't.

 

[ForceStealer]

Not really.

SOLDIER = Mako only.

This part isn't true, actually. All SOLDIERs are showered in Mako and injected with Jenova cells. It's why part of the requirement for being a SOLDIER is a strong sense of self - and the reason Cloud was rejected.
Hojo's experiment was to perform the SOLDIER treatment on people who were NOT fit to be SOLDIERs. i.e. the civilians of Nibelheim who were even better for the experiment as their world had been destroyed around them and they would be especially weak-willed for Jenova to dominate their minds.

I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.

I'm not sure why Hojo thought performing the experiment on Zack was worth it considering he had already undergone the treatment. But maybe he figured a second dosage after Sephiroth betrayed and bested him would break him.

 

[Telcontar]

Huh. Makes sense. I was wrong. My bad.

 

[hleV]

You should play Crisis Core if you haven't.

Well, the question occured AFTER I finished Crisis Core, so...

So apparently Cloud pretty much explained it in FF7. Though I still wonder what's the difference between injecting Jenova and Sephiroth's cells.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's a common misconception that Cloud's line 'I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER' meant that he'd be just as strong as he would be without the SOLDIER treatment. It just means that physically, he was a prime candidate for it (but not mentally). While we don't know how strong Cloud would be without the SOLDIER treatment (he was a pretty fucking strong dude before), he does owe much of his abilities to it; it's his 'origin' story for his powers, so to speak.

So it is a mix; Cloud is strong because of his SOLDIER treatments, and partially, because he just is.

 

[ForceStealer]

Right. I have no doubt that Cloud is stronger for the treatments. But it never seems to have been implied that Cloud was unable to make SOLDIER because of a lack of physical strength, but mental strength.

I think what he means by that line is that the reason he looks and performs so much like a member of SOLDIER is because the Sephiroth Copy Project is the exact same procedure as one undergoes for SOLDIER. He's responding to Barret who says that his false identity is "Pretty damn strong for an 'lusion, I'd say." Because Cloud didn't just believe himself to be an ex-SOLDIER, no one ever questioned it because he looks the part. Glowing eyes, wielding a huge sword, proficient with magic, etc.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Yeah, Cloud is easily the physically strongest character in the game(except maybe Sephiroth, it's debatable), and definitely one of the physically strongest FF characters in general. His natural strength plus the boosts from Mako and S-cells make him extraordinarily strong, not to mention the hell of a workout he must be getting from lugging around huge swords all the time. His in-game strength stat even reflects this.

 

[Ite]

My thinking was that the experiment with Zack and Cloud was Hojo was removing the J-Cells (or S-Cells?) from Zack and implanting them in Cloud. That explains how Zack was so easily killed by a couple of mooks, and explains where Hojo got the cells after Sephiroth and Jenova had peaced out.

It might also explain why Jenova chose to use Zack's memories to control Cloud. If her cells are like symbiotes, they would be her memories too.

But if you haven't learned not to listen to me by now it's your own fault for getting confused! *boioioing*

 

[Roger]

I'm pretty sure the average SOLDIER's Mako treatment is not anywhere near as extensive as the one Cloud and Zack endured for 4 years of convinement BTW.

 

[hleV]

The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me.

Does anybody understand what Sephiroth's strong will have to do with the explanation for Cloud's strength and messed up memories? I don't think it's about Sephiroth having been able to influence him (to give the Black Materia, etc.) because that's not what's being talked about there

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm quite sure that is what Cloud's referring to.

 

[leftcoastkid]

You know I have often wondered why there seems to be a lack of explanation for why Cloud is special, and he definitely is special. In CC Zack mentions how Cloud is better than your average Shinra Infantryman and displays good skills with the sword, and even though he was catching Sephiroth by surprise it took something special to enable Cloud to throw him off the platform with a sword impaling him.

It makes sense for him to be special after the mako/s-cell treatment as he inherits similar enhancements to Sephiroth after the experiments, but there still seemed to be something about him before. Maybe it was Sephiroth's strength of will that made Cloud so strong because before Cloud had the conviction, but not the sense of self that was required to retain your personality after the SOLDIER treatment, but mix his conviction with Sephiroth's strength of will and abilities and you get something special?

....Was that too all over the place?

 

[leftcoastkid]

You know I have often wondered why there seems to be a lack of explanation for why Cloud is special, and he definitely is special. In CC Zack mentions how Cloud is better than your average Shinra Infantryman and displays good skills with the sword, and even though he was catching Sephiroth by surprise it took something special to enable Cloud to throw him off the platform with a sword impaling him.

It makes sense for him to be special after the mako/s-cell treatment as he inherits similar enhancements to Sephiroth after the experiments, but there still seemed to be something about him before. Maybe it was Sephiroth's strength of will that made Cloud so strong because before Cloud had the conviction, but not the sense of self that was required to retain your personality after the SOLDIER treatment, but mix his conviction with Sephiroth's strength of will and abilities and you get something special?

....Was that too all over the place?

 

[Roger]

You know I have often wondered why there seems to be a lack of explanation for why Cloud is special, and he definitely is special. In CC Zack mentions how Cloud is better than your average Shinra Infantryman and displays good skills with the sword, and even though he was catching Sephiroth by surprise it took something special to enable Cloud to throw him off the platform with a sword impaling him.

It makes sense for him to be special after the mako/s-cell treatment as he inherits similar enhancements to Sephiroth after the experiments, but there still seemed to be something about him before. Maybe it was Sephiroth's strength of will that made Cloud so strong because before Cloud had the conviction, but not the sense of self that was required to retain your personality after the SOLDIER treatment, but mix his conviction with Sephiroth's strength of will and abilities and you get something special?

....Was that too all over the place?

Why would there need to be an explanarion? Do we doubt that Tifa, Barret, Cid and Yuffie are better then the average infantryman? Cause none of them got Mako enhacements. Cid doesn't have any suggestion of the slightest military background at all.

 

[leftcoastkid]

I guess thats fair, there doesn't need to be one. To me it just seems odd in Cloud's case since he is the only one that takes on Sephiroth one-on-one and wins (multiple times) and since Sephiroth is special even among others that have been enhanced (Project G, other SOLDIER members) and how special Sephiroth is gets talked about to death it seems natural there would be a reason Cloud is similarly special, but I took your commnet, Minato, to mean its a videogame and thats how videogames go, the people involved are special and thats why there is a game about them, enough said, and that's a fair point.

 

[hleV]

Why would there need to be an explanarion? Do we doubt that Tifa, Barret, Cid and Yuffie are better then the average infantryman? Cause none of them got Mako enhacements. Cid doesn't have any suggestion of the slightest military background at all.

Going by that kind of logic, "nothing needs to be explained because it's a fantasy world", which renders any kind of in-universe logic discussions pointless. There indeed needs to be an explanation for why Cloud, who's seemingly undergone enhancements similar to other SOLDIERs', appears to be special.
Regarding the party members' strength, it's obvious that in FFVII humans have way more potential. And I don't think we know enough about Cid to make an good estimation of how well he's supposed to perform on the field of battle.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Some people are just better at certain things than others? Talent is its own explaination.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's more than fair to say that Cloud is emphasized as "different," but I wouldn't say he's necessarily special. "Special" implies to me that he does things others couldn't.

As you said yourself, Zerg, the fiction makes it clear that humans in that world have more potential than humans in our world. Anyone is capable of a Limit Break there. Talent, as Mog mentioned, explains the difference that is there. Some people, like Cloud, just access that potential more readily.

 

[Roger]

Going by that kind of logic, "nothing needs to be explained because it's a fantasy world", which renders any kind of in-universe logic discussions pointless. There indeed needs to be an explanation for why Cloud, who's seemingly undergone enhancements similar to other SOLDIERs', appears to be special.

I'm not saying nothing needs explaining. I'm just questioning why FFVII would need to explain what we are willing to accept out of hand in any other videogame. Rarely is the main character justified to be outright more powerful and more special then the villain, They overcome the odds.

Regarding the party members' strength, it's obvious that in FFVII humans have way more potential. And I don't think we know enough about Cid to make an good estimation of how well he's supposed to perform on the field of battle.

Shinra infantrymen are FFVII humans too. Why can't they jump thousands of meters into the sky? They're the ones that were travelling and fighting battles before Cloud picked them up. We definitely know enough about Cid to say he wasn't.

 

[Clement Rage]

Being stabbed did enough damage for him to hit his limit break?

In universe, they don't have a turn based combat system. Real combat doesn't work like an RPG, where a level 50 character can't possibly be defeated by a level one character unless they're throwing the fight.

Also, the second two Sephiroth fights involved powerups courtesy of Aeris and Holy. In AC, Cloud gets his ass kicked hard, it takes intervention from dead friends on three separate occasions for him to win.

 

[leftcoastkid]

Also, the second two Sephiroth fights involved powerups courtesy of Aeris and Holy. In AC, Cloud gets his ass kicked hard, it takes intervention from dead friends on three separate occasions for him to win.

That is a good point that I didn't think of at first. Cloud did get help, but even so does much better than Zack or even Genesis did which is surprising. Also a solid point that not everyone can jump dozens of feet in the air in a single bound, maybe its because they have had so much exposure to Mako through their adventures in FFVII? That's a pretty lame guess though.

I think one aspect of the combat that makes it hard to reconcile these questions is the fact that the combat seems to be very different in the video games opposed to the live action animations. The result is the same, but in the game you can take on Sephiroth with Cloud and two others, in AC it takes all of them, including Cloud, to take out the Bahamut summon. Just saying it seems that in the games gameplay is taken more into consideration than cannon when it comes to relative strength of party members (as it should) so it is not exactly one-to-one with the live action installments.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Shinra infantrymen are FFVII humans too. Why can't they jump thousands of meters into the sky?

Simple; the average human in FFVII's world is more or less the average human in the real world. It's just that in the fictional FFVII universe, the power ceiling is much higher; humans can, if they're so inclined, 'jump thousands of meters into the sky', if they're strong enough/genetically enhanced/magical powers/etc.

 

[hleV]

Shinra infantrymen are FFVII humans too. Why can't they jump thousands of meters into the sky? They're the ones that were travelling and fighting battles before Cloud picked them up. We definitely know enough about Cid to say he wasn't.

Considering 14-year-olds with no training can join Shinra's army, it's not so far-fetched to say that Shinra infantrymen are not supposed to perform at least remotely on par with the humans from Cloud's party. Tifa was trained, Barret is a huge muscular man with a machine gun arm, Yufi is a ninja who's done her "ninja things" for years, and Cid, well, all we know is that he's using a spear and is pretty brave. Who even knows if he was as strong back during the events of FFVII as he's portrayed to be in AC.

Again, humans appear to have way bigger potential in FFVII than IRL, but that potential has to be reached.

 

[leftcoastkid]

I do like the potential theory. Also, in the game equipping materia changes your stats, which makes sense because it is a form of naturally refined Mako that you are putting into your body (as portrayed in AC) so maybe "the party" having so much exposure to materia over the course of FFVII (and Mako in general as I pointed out in an earlier post) helps them reach and possibly even increase their potential over normal humans?