Do we know how old Elena is?

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#26
Completely forgot about this. So, let's take a look:

古代種の末裔であるエアリスを監視し、機会を見計らって社への協力を要請することが、長い間、シォンの日常業務になっていた。時に、部下たちが粗暴なやり方で圧力かけることもあったが、神羅カンパニーとしては異例の、穏やかな作戦だった。かつてエアリスの実母を暴力的に支配しようとして、結果的に失ってしまったことへの反省が作戦の根本にあった。

From that, I got:

----
Observing a descendant of the Ancients while insisting that the company allow him to choose opportunities at his own discretion had been Tseng's everyday affairs for a long time. Although his subordinates occasionally added some pressure by rougher avenues, this was still a gentle tactic exceptional for the Shin-Ra Company. The cause for this strategy was that he reflected on how he/they had once lost Aerith's mother as a result of controlling her with violence.
----

It's not entirely clear to me whether it's saying Tseng himself was involved with the prior strategy. I don't think it's being deliberately vague about it either. Nojima either didn't think about whether it was unclear or didn't consider that anyone would wonder about it.

Personally, I think you could go either way with it. I do think Tseng was most likely already with the company at the time, though.

Aerith was still little when the Turks began approaching her at her house (not much time is implied to have passed after Ifalna's death; the most the Ultimania says is "They receive many visits from the Turks after that"/その後幾度もタークスの訪問を受け), and I can't imagine a fresh recruit to the Turks being given this all-important assignment, much less the discretion to decide to go about it in a way considered unique to the organization. Had it been the executives who decided a more gentle approach was needed, I could maybe see it then, but Tseng himself was the one who argued for gentle tactics when the company would have preferred she just be taken against her will.

Back to the other matter, though, whether Tseng was directly involved before the escape, again, I can see it going either way. Tseng blunders and then revises his methods for dealing with Aerith after losing Ifalna. That makes sense. On the other hand, it's equally believable -- perhaps more so -- that someone else was previously in charge of bringing Ifalna and Aerith in, and was then "relieved of duty" after fucking up so bad. That would jibe with Aerith not realizing that Tseng worked for Shin-Ra until after the escape, when she thanked him for keeping watch over her and he decided to be honest about who he is.

Whatever the case on Tseng's involvement or lack thereof regarding Ifalna's death, I still think it's only reasonable to conclude he was already with the company at the time and was at least ten years older than Aerith (and, thus, about 15 years older than Elena at the time of the original game). I still think 17 might be a conservative estimate, but who the hell knows with the wacky world of FFVII.
 
Last edited:
AKA
The Engineer
#28
^^Given how old the SOLDIER program is (not), I could actually see that becoming a problem as there's very little to no data about the long term affects of how mako and Jenvoa affect that body. I could see slower aging (or rather delay of tissue degradation) being at least one side effect.
 
#30
Does anyone know when the destruction of Kalm happened?

I assumed it takes place shortly after Tseng's mission with Veld that nearly gets him killed, and Tseng is described as a rookie at that point? Then again, I'm not sure how long after it took place or when it happened.

The wiki timeline says it's 1997, but the wiki timeline also describes the event as "Kalm is firebombed by Shinra to eliminate the company leak. The order is given by Veld, who was unhindered by Kalm being his hometown and that his wife and daughter, Felicia, are there." Which is incorrect because Before Crisis clarifies that it was an accidental bombing. Veld gave coordinates that were outside of Kalm, but the message was garbled. (he still blames himself, but this is a key difference).

If Tseng's rookie mission and Kalm were in 1997, and we're assuming Tseng is at least 10 years old than Aerith, then Tseng would have been considered a rookie at 22?

Although possibly he's a rookie at field missions, perhaps up until then his primary job was just guarding Aerith and bodyguard duty for the executives - other Turk work outside counter terrorism field operations,- honestly, it seems strange that Veld would go on that mission himself since he's directer and presumably has subordinate teams he could send, Reno, Rude, and Cissnei are likely Turks at this point since the latter two are seniors at the start of BC and Cissnei has been with the Turks forever. Katana is also mentioned as having been a Turk for awhile, and there were the two Turks killed by Genesis. If BC is any indication, the Turks historically operate as a large department, so it seems likely that even prior to the majority of the BC Turks joining Veld would have had plenty subordinates. So why did he go on that mission himself?

I actually like the idea that Kalm took place in 1997 in terms of Elfe's storyline because I like reading her character as a mirror of Cloud. Her home town is destroyed by fire with Shinra to blame, she's taken and experimented on, four years later she's a super soldier fighting for AVALANCHE. (It was five years for Cloud, but my main point is I like a shorter timeline between when Felecia is taken by Shinra and when Elfe shows up, rather than decades, because it keeps a closer parallel to Cloud).

If Elfe is 12 in 1997 she's still young enough to be excited to see her workaholic father and spend time with him when she gets the chance, and having Elfe be 16 in 2001 isn't too ridiculous given how young heroes can be in this world.

I also like keeping 1997 significant in the timeline.

That said, it seems like it would make more sense in Tseng's storyline for his failed mission in Costa to have been when he was younger.

If this happened in 1990 when Tseng was 15, and Elfe was say 7 or 8 at the time, she's be around 18 or 19 in 2001 which also works. She could be in her 20s and it would work.

Her timeline has her taken by Hojo as a child and experimented on in Nibelheim. At some point he declares her a failure and order the body destroyed. (So i assume she flatlined, and maybe Zirconiade regenerated her/brought her back to life afterwards - because you'd think Hojo wouldn't have dumped her body if she was still alive/wouldn't have let her go at all if he'd realized the experiment sort of worked). Fuhito rescues her and takes her to Cosmo Canyon. She becomes a powerful warrior (so possibly there's time to train unless her superpowers somehow give her sudden weapons proficiency and combat skills - but I personally assume even super soldiers would have to train even with the physical edge granted by their abilities).

When the original leader of AVALANCHE dies he appoints her the new leader. So she must have been there long enough to endear herself to them, as well as the other AVALANCHE members since they're willing to accept this and follow her. Then sometime after that she meets and recruits Shears.

So this suggests a decent time gap between when she's taken and when she is first seen in BC. Although it's possible she was only in Hojo's custody a few months. I assume the only thing that kept her from dying of her injuries sustained at Kalm was Hojo implanting Zirconiade inside of her. So the experiment could have begun, and "failed" shortly after Hojo got her. In that case, the 1997 - 2001 time frame might have been long enough for everything to take place?

((does anyone have any info on when the Kalm incident took place? The FFVII timeline on the wiki only sources the Lifestream's timeline, but the Kalm incident isn't even on the Lifestream's timeline. So I'm not sure where the wiki is getting this. Which is not to say it can't be true, like the wiki timeline lists Rufus's birth year as 1982, but the Lifestream only says [ Approx. 25~30 years before FFVII ] but we know from Episode Shinra that he is 25 during FFVII so that would put it at 1982, so in some instances the Wiki time is more accurate, but here, I see no sources))

Whatever the case on Tseng's involvement or lack thereof regarding Ifalna's death, I still think it's only reasonable to conclude he was already with the company at the time and was at least ten years older than Aerith (and, thus, about 15 years older than Elena at the time of the original game). I still think 17 might be a conservative estimate, but who the hell knows with the wacky world of FFVII.
Thanks for the analysis!

My head canon was that Tseng is 10 years older than Aerith, 14 years older than Elena.

If Tseng is 25 in 2000 (Crisis Core, BC) that's old enough that he could believably be second in command of the Turks, be older compared to Zack, but still look young.

If he was 17 when Aerith fled Shinra, he could have easily been an active Turk for years, certainly old enough to form an opinion on what happened.

Had it been the executives who decided a more gentle approach was needed, I could maybe see it then, but Tseng himself was the one who argued for gentle tactics when the company would have preferred she just be taken against her will.
If Tseng had started active duty at 14, that's three years to prove himself. I think Tseng gained Veld's trust early on, enough for Veld to ask and respect his opinions by that point.

Of course, my own head canon has Tseng essentially taken in and groomed by Veld to one day be a Turk. I have introduced to Aerith when she was a baby, as part of Veld's plan to raise Tseng like a guard dog, bonded to the things he has to guard.
 
#31
My only issue with Elfe being a child when Kalm was destroyed is that Veld recognises her voice almost instantly when they finally encounter each other at Corel, and there is no way he would have been able to do this if she'd been a child when they last met. People's voices change in pitch and timbre quite a lot through puberty, and although girls voices don't break as dramatically as boys, they do change enough to make instantaneous recognition pretty much impossible.

In my headcanon she's the same age as Tseng or possibly a bit older, and she and Shears are both in their mid-thirties by the end of BC, with Shears maybe being even older.
 
#32
Headcanons can set ages at whatever serves your story best, and you're allowed to have whatever headcanon you want. However, I tend to approach things deductively from canon.

Canon seems to indicate that she's younger than Tseng because following the Costa Del Sol mission Veld sees Felecia and she's still a child. Small enough for Veld to pick her up and swing her around. This seems to indicate that Tseng would be 5 - 10 years older than Elfe.

Though if the Kalm incident didn't immediately follow the Costa Del Sol mission, then it might have happened when Elfe was older. I like the idea of her being 16 when Kalm is destroyed and 20 in 2001 (just because I want more Cloud parallels). That would make her old enough for Veld to recognize her voice.

Although I think part of it might be "I'd know my child anywhere" sort of storyline where parents recognize their children through the magic of parent/child bonds being just that strong. Or possibly she sounds a lot like her mother and Veld deduces given her age that she must be his daughter. But - yeah, you have a point there about the voice recognition thing...

If someone could please find something to clarify when the Kalm incident happened relative to Costa Del Sol or anything else on the time line, I'd be so happy. (does this information even exist?)
 
#33
That "I'd known my child anywhere" thing doesn't happen in real life. Sometimes I have to look really hard to figure out which boy is mine on the soccer field. It helps when I know which number he's wearing, of course. Also, I once heard my ex-husband's voice on the TV (this was while we were still married) and said to the person beside me, "Who is that? His voice sounds familiar."

But yes, basically she can be whatever age you need her to be. I think SE keeps these things vague on purpose.
 
#34
It doesn't make it any less annoying if you're someone like me who likes a clear timeline. What I like about BC is how most of it gives us nice exact dates for events.

From the sound of it Veld being able to recognize her by just her voice strains believability no matter how old she was when when he lost her. Now that I think about it, I've had my best friend not recognize me at first while at a con because I was in a cosplay he hadn't seen before, we don't really know people by their voices.

Although in my case I'm better at recognizing voices than faces because all but face blind. Unless I've seen someone quite frequently I won't recognize them at all. (I hope I never witness anything important, I wouldn't be able describe anyone). I've learned to be good at voices, I can tell accents and tend to know people by their voice. So maybe knowing a loved one by their voice might be possible for some.

Veld's also a spy, so he might have trained himself to be good at remembering and picking up voices. A skill in the area, combined with maybe spending years watching and re-watching old home movies of his family made him obsessively familiar with her voice? (her voice probably haunts his dreams, considering the circumstances, and he might also strain never to forget how she sounds, terrified that she'll fade from his memories and he'll lose what little he kept of her in his heart and mind).

The scene we get is of course a bit vague. We get from Elfe's point of view and her memories are fragmented from trauma. She remembers Kalm's destruction, and remembers spending time with her father as a little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEPRgJp4KNg

It's possible she's remembering an earlier memory of him that took place long before Kalm's destruction that took place years later.

In regards to her age compared to Tseng, Veld wanted to take time to see his daughter after being injured in Costa Del Sol, but I guess she could be any age at that point and he'd still want to see his family, but for some reason I assumed she was still a child at that point.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#35
The Kalm incident is implied to have happened right after Tseng's Special Episode. In that same conversation where he and Veld talk about the older man spending some time with his daughter, they mention that the informant/traitor from that scenario is hiding out near Kalm and Veld says he's going to take charge of the operation to deal with them and then have time with his family after.

Not that it helps us pin down when the incident occurred any better relative to FFVII, but we can conclude that it was pretty much immediately after the Special Episode.
 
#36
Do they? I thought they did, but rewatching the episode and they didn't mention the leak was in Kalm.

Veld says he doesn't mind being injured because after he's out of the hospital he's taking a vacation.

Tseng asks about Veld saving him, and Veld explains why he saved him. Tseng reflects on why he loves Veld so much.

Tseng tells him to take time to rest. Veld says he can't because he heard the leak is in hiding. Tseng offers to go back to HQ to look into it. Veld tells him No, I can't stay here, I need to go see my daughter.

It's a bit confusing honestly, Veld doesn't have time to rest because he has to take care of the leak, but he also wants to go see his daughter. Maybe the scene is to show how Veld is constantly torn between his duties to Shinra and making time for his family.

I'm not sure if there's enough to conclude the leak was in Kalm. (Though I do like the irony of Veld putting off seeing his family until after finishing dealing with the leak and never getting to see his family again. Also the fact that he saved Tseng might have allowed the leak to get away, and so maybe he hadn't saved Tseng his family never would have died)

Of course, I've only seen this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8tm52KmOY

Does someone have a link to the script? Does the Japanese make more sense?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#37
I'm going to check the Japanese later. In the translation video I watched, Veld explicitly says that the leak is near Kalm and that he intends to deal with it himself because his family is there.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#39
Yeah, he definitely says the informant is near Kalm. Here's the English video I watched:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isfW4nAibc

Veld: "It seems that the traitor is hiding out near Kalm."
Tseng: "You should let that wait until you come back."
Veld: "No. I'll command the operation. Kalm is where my precious family lives."

Original Japanese:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5915970

Veld: 例の内通者がカームの近くに潜伏しているしいな
Tseng: 主任が戻るまでに残りの者で終わらせます
Veld: いや俺が担当したい
カームには大事な家族がいるからな…

Veld: "It seems the aforementioned traitor is hiding out in the vicinity of Kalm."
Tseng: "Others will have taken care of that by the time you return, Director."
Veld: "No, I would like to take charge. My precious family is in Kalm ..."

I think we can safely say that the bombing of Kalm happened right after. We just don't know when both events happened.
 
#41
Awesome, it's nice to find a clearer translation.

Also, Before Crisis is freaking heart breaking. Seriously, the tragic irony there, poor Veld. I mean, I knew this story all ready, but just watching it again with the better translation, it's a good story. Say what you will about the plot holes in BC, the plot twists are amazing.

All right, so looking at this, does the dialogue indicate that Elfe was a little girl when it happened?

Tseng tells Veld to play with his daughter, which seems to indicate she was the age shown in her memory of Veld (small enough to pick up/excited to play with her dad). Also the fact Elfe calls him Daddy when she recognizes him is very child-like, which could evidence her being a little girl the last time she saw him.

Of course, none of this helps us figure out when it happened or how old Tseng would have been at the time. And it makes the Veld recognizing Elfe's voice thing more of a plot hole because if she was a kid her voice would have presumably changed...
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#42
Maybe, despite her appearance, role and badassery, she still has the voice of a little girl. :awesome:

I have known adult women with really mousey voices, so you never know. :monster:
 
#44
I always pegged Veld as the Bryan Mills type of Dad, he cares a lot, but treats his family as more fragile than they are and his daughter as younger than she is, because he doesn't get to see her much, so he's not up to speed on what she's like at any given moment. The fact that he's not around much might also contribute to her being glad to see him.

On voice recognition... it depends. If what happened is weighing heavily on his mind, the last time he saw her could be burned into his memory.

Although possibly he's a rookie at field missions, perhaps up until then his primary job was just guarding Aerith and bodyguard duty for the executives
You don't give the inexperienced guy bodyguard duty of your chiefs of staff.

I prefer an older Elfe, it seems like she has too much to do to get done in three/four years.
 
#45
I'll lay my cards on the table - I prefer an older Elfe because I am older myself, and I get tired of the young ones hogging all the action. In my mind's eye Elfe is a woman past the first flush of youth, possibly prematurely aged by the summons that's been sucking on her spirit energy; she takes after her father physically; she's tall, robust, like a pioneer woman, and plain rather than beautiful. And she is the love of Shears' life. I'm really tired of the convention that only beautiful young girls are worthy of being loved or interesting enough to have stories written about them. Real life doesn't work that way. Shears loves her because she's a charismatic powerhouse. She's awesome.
 
#46
You don't give the inexperienced guy bodyguard duty of your chiefs of staff.

I prefer an older Elfe, it seems like she has too much to do to get done in three/four years.
Yes, I think this story makes a lot more sense if it takes place in the the late 80s/early 90s.(Tseng around 14 or 15 and then Elfe has years to have her whole backstory with AVALANCHE take place).

Where did people get the 1997 date? Does Episode of Tseng have a date? I know a lot of BC has specific dates.

@Licorice

I LOVE YOU. - please write books

I completely agree with all your points. We need more women heroes, women not girls. There are plenty of male protagonists that are older and not as attractive, but women are always young and beautiful. We need more Molly Grue types, and others, older, different, strong and valuable in ways that have nothing to do with looks.

I also love the fact that there are so many ways to interpret a character, and that the fact they've left so much blank lets us fill in and create unique stories.
My Elfe is so different.

My Elfe is somewhat broken, very damaged, she wakes up screaming and trashing sometimes because she's terrified of waking up and being unable to move. (at one point her heart stopped, but she was continuous and aware, trapped in her own body). Sometimes she has nightmares she can't remember, and when she's tries to remember her past it's just a blank, and she hates not knowing who she was or who her family is..

I have her very attached to Fuhito because he saved her and gave her a home. I seem him manipulating her, getting her to agree to his methods because they have to fight fire with fire, Shinra has super soldiers, they need to create their own fighters. It's not something Elfe would have supported on her own, but she trusts him.

She's a capable leader in her own right. She's a powerful fighter, and she cares about her men. AVALANCHE is her family. Her purpose is her identity. She knows what she's fighting for and it's enough, so she's not weak, but she has her faults and struggles.

Then with Shears he admires her strength, she basically single handedly beat all his men, but she's also protective of her. He sees her like a little sister. He wants to take care of her, in part because he knows she puts everyone else first, her men, the mission, she doesn't take care of herself. I also sort of like keeping the relationship ambiguous, he loves her, but I'm not sure if I want it to be obvious romantic love. Then I have her be somewhat infatuated with Fuhito. (Although I also toy with shipping Rufus/Fuhito)
 

Roger

Triple Slash Enthusiast
AKA
Minato
#47
Yes, I think this story makes a lot more sense if it takes place in the the late 80s/early 90s.(Tseng around 14 or 15 and then Elfe has years to have her whole backstory with AVALANCHE take place).
Cissnei was remarked to be exceptionally young for a Turk in Crisis Core and indeed admitted she was the youngest ever, she couldn't have been any less then 15 at the time. I'd say Tseng didn't become one until 16-17.
 
#48
Where does it say that about Cissnei? Not doubting you. I've heard she's the youngest ever to join the Turks, but I don't remember where that came up in the game. I'd assumed because she says she was raised by Shinra that she might have been a Turk while still a child, as young as 10, and by Crisis Core she'd been doing it awhile (in Before Crisis it's mentioned she'd been a Turk longer than the player Turk who joined in 2000).
 
#50
I completely agree with all your points. We need more women heroes, women not girls. There are plenty of male protagonists that are older and not as attractive, but women are always young and beautiful. We need more Molly Grue types, and others, older, different, strong and valuable in ways that have nothing to do with looks.
I'm really tired of the convention that only beautiful young girls are worthy of being loved or interesting enough to have stories written about them. Real life doesn't work that way. Shears loves her because she's a charismatic powerhouse. She's awesome.
Are there any particular writers (fanfic or otherwise) that you feel write those kind of stories, then?
 
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