Environmental Message

[Dangerous Toast]

Diverging off topic, Terrorism is to those who suffer from it. Whether they deserve it or not is another matter entirely. I would like to see Shinra continue to perceive AVALANCHE as terrorists, with the population divided between seeing them as freedom fighters/terrorists.

What I would really like to see is how in particular Barrett resolves his inner turmoil over what AVALANCHE represents and how far he was prepared to go to achieve its aims. We saw a little of this in the OG but its definitely an area of the plot that deserves further investigation. Maybe a little conflict/hearing things that shake his convictions with Aerith and her ability to make contact with the deceased.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Terrorist organizations usually use Mafia-style tactics to fund operations, and yet we don't see AVALANCHE do anything like that. Which makes sense, since they are ecoterrorists. Their means and goals aren't the same as other terrorist groups. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism

To be fair, Force, FFVII was made before 9/11 and 7/7 and a number of similar attacks. Terrorism is a lot more sensitive a topic in the West than it was when the game was originally made, and I can easily see a game where the heroes are responsible for terrorism being more controversial now than it was eighteen years ago.

Maybe from a USA-centric perspective. In 1997, domestic terrorism was alive and well in many places in the West such as the UK

Spoiler

e.g IRA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Docklands_bombing

and Spain

Spoiler

e.g ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Vallecas_bombing
Full list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks

. You may find interesting that Tokyo subway sarin attack happened in 1995 and that didn't stop them from making FFVII anyway...

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

.

 

[Ⓐaron]

While it's certainly true that there was terrorism before 9/11, I don't think an attack in which two people perished, an attack in which six people perished, and an attack in which twelve people perished are at all comparable to an attack in which over three thousand people perished. They are literally multiple orders of magnitude removed from each other. An attack on 9/11's scale was pretty much unprecedented in the West.

The point about ecoterrorists is a valid one, however.

 

[ForceStealer]

Terrorism is defined as acts of terror with political goals, which is exactly what they're doing, even though there's an undertone of revenge behind the whole down with the mega-corporation for killing the planet justification.

Well, what I meant is that their intention isn't really "Stop using Mako power or more people will die!" It's...just to stop all the reactors from operating. Jessie is, after all, very upset that the bomb she made caused a bigger explosion than intended.

That said, Shinra should still absolutely refer to them as terrorists and they should absolutely still come to regret it later in the game.

 

[Starling]

Well, their methods for getting the reactors to stop working seem to amount to "Shinra won't shut them down so we'll have to do it... by blowing them up!". They either didn't find a way to deactivate the reactors without a large scale explosion that killed who knows how many people or didn't care to try. While they never announced their intentions in a way you'd expect from ransom demands, their actions probably came across that way to a lot of people. I recall one of them saying the next explosion was going to be bigger after the first, which seemed like somewhat out of place dialogue.

 

[Cthulhu]

I guess one could say the US is a terrorist organization too - I can't think of much things that would be scary than to have a sudden drone missile blow me and my family up without any kind of advance warning. Plus they're launched by effectively gamers in an air-conditioned container somewhere miles away - suicide terrorists have a much bigger hurdle to overcome. Nothing that can't be sorted out with religious zeal though.

Anyway, now I wonder whether Avalanche tried chaining themselves to the train rails or something first before resorting to bombings.

 

[Cat on Mars]

While it's certainly true that there was terrorism before 9/11, I don't think an attack in which two people perished, an attack in which six people perished, and an attack in which twelve people perished are at all comparable to an attack in which over three thousand people perished.

You missed the point.
I wasn't comparing death tolls (the very idea is disgusting for many reasons) but public awareness on the topic.
You can't make a broad statement like this one:

Terrorism is a lot more sensitive a topic in the West than it was when the game was originally made

because, well, terrorism was a sensitive topic back then. Both conflicts lasted for decades and I singled two attacks because they happened around 1997 and they were ongoing conflicts before and after FFVII's release. And the sarin gas attack in Tokyo seems to be considered the most serious terrorist attack in Japan's modern history so one might think that maybe terrorism was a sensitive topic even in Japan.

Besides, I was talking about domestic terrorism (Unabomber and the like) and 9/11 doesn't fall into that category. AVALANCHE has more to do with this

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States#Animal_Liberation_Front

than with al-Qaeda.

 

[Ⓐaron]

So you're saying that terrorism is no more a concern after an attack that killed thousands of people than it was after attacks that killed single and double digit numbers of people? Because I find that premise self-refuting. The sheer scale of 9/11 was an utter shock that brought terrorism into the forefront in a way it had never been in the past. And it's not as if the United States had been free of terrorist attacks either. The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 killed 168 people. It was still an order of magnitude less severe than 9/11, and so the country freaked out after 9/11 on a scale that simply didn't happen in 1995.

And while it's true domestic and international terrorists differ somewhat in motives and execution, the overall effect on the public remains similar. People didn't freak out after 9/11 because it was international terrorism. They freaked out because it killed three thousand people.

 

[Cat on Mars]

So you're saying that terrorism is no more a concern after an attack that killed thousands of people than it was after attacks that killed single and double digit numbers of people?

No. I said terrorism was already a concern and a sensitive topic. 9/11 simply turned it up to eleven.
The two statements doesn't negate or contradict each another.

 

[Ⓐaron]

And if you'll read my statement again, I said terrorism is more sensitive now than it was before 9/11, not that it wasn't at all sensitive before 9/11. So I'm not sure what your argument with me is.

 

[Starling]

They seem to have tried posting flyers to spread awareness of what Shinra was doing and gain support before they got to bombing. Depending on how long after Corel burned down Barret, Biggs, Wedge Jessie and Tifa all met up and decided to form AVALANCHE, there's about 4 years worth of time they could've been doing stuff other than preparing for the more drastic measures they've resorted to by the start of the game.

The way Shinra deals with AVALANCHE kinda reminds me of the war on terror post-9/11 and how some rather unpleasant things resulted in the process of taking anti-terrorist countermeasures.

 

[Lex]

I've been thinking about how they're going to handle the bombing scenes now, because even in the original game there are people running around screaming in the aftermath and Cloud, Barret and Tifa seem to have no reaction whatsoever to this until much later in the game. It's not like they go to any effort at all to make sure the area is clear of people. They know innocent people are going to die and they go ahead with it anyway. It'll be very interesting to see how they approach it with the remake, because it's not something they can ignore. It's too central to the plot.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I should hope they don't shy away from it. It's such an integral part of the plot what Shin-Ra and mako reactors have done to the planet that it wouldn't make much sense for them to downplay it. It's one of the reasons they're fighting against them to begin with.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, their methods for getting the reactors to stop working seem to amount to "Shinra won't shut them down so we'll have to do it... by blowing them up!". They either didn't find a way to deactivate the reactors without a large scale explosion that killed who knows how many people or didn't care to try. While they never announced their intentions in a way you'd expect from ransom demands, their actions probably came across that way to a lot of people. I recall one of them saying the next explosion was going to be bigger after the first, which seemed like somewhat out of place dialogue.

Barret says that, but he was clearly amped up at the time, that's as soon as you get back from the raid. Jessie says this:

Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.

But don't get me wrong, I'm just talking about their own personal motivations. (Out to take out reactors more than people.) I think people should still regard them as such. Such as the weapon shop owner in Sector 7:

Everything's in a buzz 'bout that terrorist group AVALANCHE blowin' up the Sector 1 Mako Reactor.
On the surface they say they're an anti-Shinra group, but in reality...
They say they're just out to kill as many people as they can.
Gyaaaa, Haaa haaa!!
That's a good one, ain't it!? While they're bustin' things up on top, the only ones makin' out good are us weapon stores!
Now, if we can just get rid of this back stock, we'll be doin' ok.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

What I liked about the game was that you are playing as terrorists and what you're doing is arguably wrong - the cause is just but they're willing to go to extreme measures. I like the moral grey aspect of the game.

I think the game did a good job showing later on that they felt bad about it, maybe questioned it...

But for me part of the draw was the question of when does something go too far.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Many things here.

Addressing the main topic, the environmental message is still relevant because since FFVII was released everything's pretty much the same because we haven't find out yet how fucked we are and we can't undo the environmental mess we're in. How do you convince people to drop a comfortable lifestyle and its commodities because it's a bad in idea in the long run? Humans are bad at thinking about the future. Humans are awful at risk assessment. We are wired like that. I can imagine people in Midgar looking puzzled at Avalanche's flyers and graffiti and thinking Avalanche is a bunch of crazy hippies that want to take their Mako powered toaster away from them. It takes decades and a lot of effort to change people's mindset.

And thus Avalanche turned from pacific activism to sabotage. From the wiki article I linked in my first post on this thread:

Eco-terrorism is closely related to civil disobedience and sabotage in the name of the environment causes, and there is a debate on where to draw the lines between the three. Some of those who are labeled as eco-terrorists do not perpetrate violence against humans, but only against property. This has led to a debate that touches on whether or not to classify these actions as "terrorist". In the United States, the FBI’s definition includes acts of violence against property, which makes most acts of sabotage fall in the realm of domestic terrorism.
Sabotage involves destroying, or threatening to destroy, property, and in this case is also known as monkeywrenching or ecotage. Many acts of sabotage involve the damage of equipment and unmanned facilities using arson.

Sounds like Avalanche, right? In the early game, the bombings aim to stop the reactors and damage Shinra but Avalanche's members don't seem too keen on killing people to me. Terrorism and eco-terrorism are very different things. Eco-terrorism doesn't try to instill terror and paranoia on the general population; if anything, they try to gain public symphathy and bring attention to their cause or ideology. Since Shinra controls the media, any property damage is framed as terrorism and that's probably what the whole of the upper-plate population think as well. People in the slums don't give a shit about Shinra but it doesn't mean they all support Avalanche.
Now, they don't target Shinra employees but it's implied innocent Shinra workers have died as result of the bombings. If I recall correctly, Caith Sith/Reeve brings up the topic, Barret retorts something on the lines of 'they had to have known and accepted the risks' but it doesn't get discussed much further. So they are terrorists... but Shinra is far worse. Plenty of grey morality is what makes FFVII's plot and characters interesting.

On a side note, even if there were no deaths involved, I wonder how power cuts would have made people more sympathetic towards Avalanche, but whatever. I guess a large part of the population simply dislikes/hates/despises/distrusts Shinra and whoever stands up and fight the company is ok.

And anyway, if Square developed a game whose main characters were terrorists right after the Tokyo sarin gas attacks, SE sure doesn't care about how will be received in the West these days; they are idiosyncratic like that. In addition, it's been a quiet period for eco-terrorism. I don't think its portrayal alone will be controversial.

Spoiler

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...en-as-threat/2012/02/28/gIQAA4Ay3R_story.html
http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/whatever-happened-to-eco-terrorism

.

The way Shinra deals with AVALANCHE kinda reminds me of the war on terror post-9/11 and how some rather unpleasant things resulted in the process of taking anti-terrorist countermeasures.

^Relevant.

And if you'll read my statement again, I said terrorism is more sensitive now than it was before 9/11, not that it wasn't at all sensitive before 9/11. So I'm not sure what your argument with me is.

Honestly, I just wanted to expand on the topic. And international vs domestic terrorism is a complex issue and I had the urge to nitpick, probably mudding the whole topic a bit. Apologies if I sounded too confrontational.

Spoiler

It's hard for me to get the right tone across when I want to discuss some points in finer detail and regard other issues at the same time.

 

[Pixel]

I'd love them to have a locked up section in Shinra HQ where they keep stuff that they've covered up about the effects over the years. How independent news orgs covered it when it first started to show. Then Shinra started taking over. Put them out of business, either finacially, or by force. So people are blissfully ignorant, until Avalanche has to do something.

Also show documents about other stuff theyve covered up.

 

[Ite]

That would be cool. The Shinra Library puzzle could include nods to real studies. There's a book called "Free Market: Who Wins the War Between States and Corporations?" that reminded me of Shinra (when I wasn't grappling with our own sad reality.) I'm now reading "Only One Earth" which is about climate change, published in the 70s. Again, reminds me of FFVII's dark prediction for Western civilization.

#weliveinmidgar should be a thing.

 

[NewQuixote]

I think one of the interesting things was watching the Characters grapple with the consequences of their single mindedness, it gave more weight to why they wanted to 'Save the Planet': to redeem themselves for their actions in Midgar. These protagonists are alot more likable in Chibi form, but i hope in the RE they are these messed up, hurt, half psychotic, insecure, revenge-driven nobodies, haha. The potential for fully realized character arcs is huge.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Guys - I want to point out - AVALANCHE has a canon in universe history.

We can safely assume the remake will be part of the compilation (and may even result in remakes/rereleases of other compilation titles).

AVALANCHE was originally founded as a terrorist group and they were not above targeting civilians. Their first mission was to destroy the Mako reactors (just as in the original game). In BC the Turks stop them, emphasizing the civilians deaths that would result if the Reactors blew and how power would be taken out for a large number of people - causing further harmer.

After the reactor mission fails, AVALANCHE's next major attack is in Junon where they attempt to hijack the Junon Canon and fire it on Midgar. Other notable attacks including sabotaging Shinra's Rocket Launch - which is why Sherra didn't notice the damage until so close to launch - it was recent sabotage (I think sabotaging the rocket launch is morally equivalent to the OG's group sabotaging Shinra's attempt to use the large materia to counter Meteor - Shinra's doing therefor we must oppose it).

Then - as in the OG - AVALANCHE's goal was to stop Shinra by blowing their stuff up. Although the previous incarnation was more willing to have civilian deaths - reasoning that if they don't stop Shinra the whole planet dies. The original AVALANCHE were not evil - they were heroes and mirrored the OG's group. Elfe was an escaped experiment taken by Hojo after Shinra destroyed her home town, the experiments gave her Super Soldier abilities but left her with memory issues. Shears was an anti Shinra fighter who joined the group, Shinra killed his family and destroyed his home town.

However, that AVALANCHE was thrown off course by Fuhito - who decided he wanted to destroy all life on Earth because humans inevitably destroy the planet - the only way to save the planet is to return everything to the life stream and start over.

This is where Barret comes in (and for sake of ease I'll quote the wiki)

A second, far smaller, AVALANCHE is created in Midgar by Barret Wallace, a former citizen of Corel. After Corel was destroyed and several AVALANCHE members defected the organization, Barret met up with one such member in Cosmo Canyon and was told of the ideals that drove AVALANCHE and their goals before being taken over by Fuhito. This gave Barret the incentive to form a resistance group of his own (it's unknown whether this was after the full destruction of AVALANCHE or not, but it is likely due to the timescale and implied injuries Barret sustained from Scarlet).

Although having some fundamental disagreements with Fuhito, Barret takes up the fight where Fuhito left off. On December 9, εуλ 0007, AVALANCHE bombs the Sector 1 Reactor, killing an unknown number of civilians.

It's possible the plans to blow up the reactors were based on the original AVALANCHE's plan.

So given that Barret's AVALANCHE took up the name of the original AVALANCHE (as either a copycat group or split faction from the original) - it's pretty clear they are meant to be terrorists.

The point is - the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is whose side your on. Plenty terrorist groups had nobel goals and saw themselves as fighting for freedom (ex) the IRA).

Another point is the difference between good and evil is how far you're willing to go. The original AVALANCHE would have destroyed the whole city of Midgar if that's what it took to stop Shinra. Barret's AVALANCHE didn't want to kill people if they could avoid it. But the game does a good job exploring the idea that in war the enemy because 'the enemy' rather than people. So instead of seeing Shinra employees as ordinary people, they're just The Shinra - enemies to be eliminated. Barret's arce is about not being so blinded by vengeance that he wants to kill everyone - but he has some real darkness to grapple with too.

I don't think we should white wash what AVALANCHE is to make them more unambiguous heroes.

 

[Clement Rage]

Guys, can we maybe move this to News and Politics? 'Who suffers most from terrorism' isn't going to go anywhere good. I'd personally rather not see the IRA name casually thrown around to prove a point about a video game.

At the risk of being hypocritical, I'm going to point out that the Troubles lasted thirty years and cost about 3,600 lives overall, (figure from the BBC.) They're still finding the bodies. It didn't amount to one attack, and was a huge issue at least in the UK. I'm not claiming one or the other was better or worse, there are arguments both ways, but the comparison isn't ridiculous.

 

[Pixel]

A better example of environmentalists causing destruction is burning of GM crops. Big businesses mess with nature for profit, causing unknown effects to the environment.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Yes, but burning crops didn't kill anyone. We've got property damage and theft - whereas with FFVII you're setting bombs and people die.

I agree with Clement Rage that we shouldn't argue over what terrorist attacks are worse - because all attacks, all wars, all events where people died are bad. I don't think anyone is trying to say that any event was worse - just that 9/11 had a broad impact on American culture and it did - it had an historical impact - but we should be careful not to make it out to be a contest for worst history.

A game where the protagonists start out as a terrorist group is bound to be controversial - but I think fiction should be - we have stories about war - and I think the problem with two many game is that it makes war a game, you shoot people and get points. What FFVII does is it makes the player question their actions later - it grapples with idea of is there a just war, a just cause - how far can we go?

I'm sorry it seemed like I was trivializing the IRA, that was not my intention. Many people died, and I respect that.

 

[Octo]

After the reactor mission fails, AVALANCHE's next major attack is in Junon where they attempt to hijack the Junon Canon and fire it on Midgar.

How the hell were they going to do that?

Anyway, in the OG, I never felt bad about what Avalanche did. They had no other choice. Sure Barret and Tifa feel bad about the unintended consequences of their actions. But I never questioned that they were the good guys, any more than I would question if Robin Hood was the good guy.

I suspect SE knew this too, and thats the reason for Fuhito in BC - although I would have enjoyed a Turks game all the same if they were fighting a more mild incarnation of Avalanche.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

One other juicy tidbit that adds to the awesome moral ambiguity of the FF7 plot, is that besides the fact that AVALANCHE are committing arguably justified eco-terrorism...that is, violence/destruction in the hopes of preventing even worse destruction...at the start of the game, Cloud is just a mercenary. In other words, he's not even helping to blow up reactors, resulting in death and injury to countless civilians, in the name of deep-seated beliefs and a cause he swears allegiance to. He's blowing stuff up simply because he was offered money to do so! You wonder what else he would've done for the right price if the game's plot hadn't intervened. It's a good thing he ended up in Sector 7 first instead of Wall Market...