ERRORS in article "This Just In: the LTD is Over"

[Jason Tandro]

Furthermore, Lex has been pretty clear that this conversation needs to either be continued via PM or in the appropriate forum. Please continue the conversation there.

 

[Lex]

^^^Yeah, if you could not ignore my posts Anastar that would be nifty <3.

I know I wasn't posting much when you used to post a lot in LTD threads here, but I'm very conscious of both what's on our front site and what should be kept to the LTD threads on the board. I want to make it clear that I have no problem with you or anyone from CxA, but I'm also of the opinion that the LTD as a whole gets far more attention than it deserves, and until there are any further developments I'd rather it just sunk to the annals of TLS history at this point. The reason being that there are a vocal number of people online who have tried to use it as a tool to tarnish this site's reputation, when for the last at least four years its only been a tiny contingent of members here who've given it the time of day.

tl;dr, as the site director I care a lot about site content and it's been a focus of mine to move away from LTD on the site front end. You and any other Clerith shippers are welcome here, but please don't make the sole purpose of your visit the LTD because as I said before the vast majority of our members really don't care. I mean, if you wish chat away in the dedicated LTD thread to those who'd like to keep chatting away then feel free, but don't let it spill out of there. And also make an effort to get to know people and post outside the LTD, because we've had problems in the past with members who come here with the sole purpose of trying to disprove something someone's written which has led to a lot of disingenuous rubbish being spread around.

And I know what the purpose of this thread is, but please contact Tres and Ryu directly. I'll state again I'm not in favour of touching the article. It's a relic and its stated as such. If either Tres or Ryu want to add a disclaimer or addendum to it, it's up to them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, I'm not into discussing the LTD anymore - IMO, SE left it up to player interpretation so there is no actual canon pairing.

This is all about the accuracy of what's stated in Ryu's article.

The issue there is that one can't really talk about why Ryu's comments are or aren't accurate without discussing nuances of the LTD.

Regardless, though, in the spirit of good will, I'd be fine with implementing Shademp's suggestion for Ryu's article so long as Ryu himself doesn't object. I'll ask him directly if he would be fine with it. If he says he is, then I'll make the change. If I get no response within one week, I'll also make the change.

Beyond that, there's nothing that I would be in favor of changing (for the ethical considerations I went over in that apology I issued a couple years back).

My suggestion would be to include an annotation and a link at the start of the "LTD Is Over" article, directing the reader to articles which are more up to date and more open about the various interpretations on the subject. I would prefer to leave the choice of links to Tres.

That's a decent idea, Shademp - but I'd like to see the changes at least mentioned on the front page.

This will not be happening, however, both because my apology was posted to the front page the same as Ryu's thread (so the opportunity for equal attention to alternative perspectives has already been given), and because -- as Lex pointed out -- frankly we want to move away from giving this topic any more attention than we already have.

 

[Anastar]

^^^Yeah, if you could not ignore my posts Anastar that would be nifty <3.

Sorry, I didn't mean to "ignore" you, Lex. I thought it was sufficient when I explained to Octo that I wasn't arguing the LTD. If anyone brought up LTD related stuff, it was Dashell/Quex - and I did respond to what she said, but i considered that part tangential to my main point.

The reason being that there are a vocal number of people online who have tried to use it as a tool to tarnish this site's reputation, when for the last at least four years its only been a tiny contingent of members here who've given it the time of day.

Well, I had mo intention of trying to tarnish the reputation of TLS, and I've actually tried to improve relations between the Clerith and Cloti fandoms via a Peace Treaty that I initially posted about on Tumblr, but unfortunately, the idea was met with quite a bit of resistance on the CxA Forum due to misunderstandings about it.

I have nothing against you or Tres or Ryu or Quec or anyone else here. I still firmly believe in the Clerth interpretation of the Compilation but I don't agree that either Clerith or Cloti are canon. As I said, I think SE purposely left the LTD up to player interpretation. As a result, I see no reason for debating which couple is canon anymore. Let people think what they want to think.

I actually think TLS is a very good resource for material and that Tres and Ryu have done a great job of translating and so forth. I do NOT agree with all of their conclusions, but they both know that. We've spoken about it and we're all quite aware of our differences. But they know I'm not gonna budge and I know they aren't gonna budge - so why argue about it? I also think that both Ryu and Tres are very nice guys and I've enjoyed talking with them. Quex and I also disagree about many parts of the LTD, but I consider her a good friend and a very nice person.

In short, I have no intention of trashing TLS. We've had our differences, but I don't see any reason to harass one another over it any more. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Cloud and Tifa. I do see Cloti as a possible interpretation - I don't AGREE with it but I do think it's possible to interpret the game that way.

So I'm not here to change anyone's mind about the LTD. I just wanted to see corrections made to the mistakes on Ryu's article because that article was widely read and widely publicized and still has influence on people. The mere fact that Cleriths still get harassed by flamers on Tumblr who say that Clloti is canon but Clerith is not is strong evidence that they've been influenced by what was said in Ryu's article.

The issue there is that one can't really talk about why Ryu's comments are or aren't accurate without discussing nuances of the LTD.

True enough... but I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind about Clerith or Cloti. If I was I'd take it to the LTD thread.

However I did try to bring it up outside the forum - you can find my earlier posts about it HERE.

Regardless, though, in the spirit of good will, I'd be fine with implementing Shademp's suggestion for Ryu's article so long as Ryu himself doesn't object. I'll ask him directly if he would be fine with it. If he says he is, then I'll make the change. If I get no response within one week, I'll also make the change.

THANK YOU!!!!

Beyond that, there's nothing that I would be in favor of changing (for the ethical considerations I went over in that apology I issued a couple years back).

Okay I can respect that.

However, if the conclusions drawn from the FTOIL page are different than they were when Ryu first wrote the article, then I would think the change should be announced on the front page. For one, the FTOIL page recognizes Clerith as a romantic pairing as well as Cloti. I'd be happy if that alone were announced on the front page, even though I don't come to the same conclusion about it as you do. I think it focuses on optionality while you think both are canon.

But if it were simply stated on the front page that the FTOIL page recognizes Clerith and Cloti both as romantic pairings, I would be happy with that since it would correct a major error in Ryu's article.

Anyway, thank you SO MUCH, Tres! *hugs*

 

[Dashell]

Sorry, I didn't mean to "ignore" you, Lex. I thought it was sufficient when I explained to Octo that I wasn't arguing the LTD. If anyone brought up LTD related stuff, it was Dashell/Quex - and I did respond to what she said, but i considered that part tangential to my main point.

Sorry, didn't mean to start an argument

Anyways nice that things seem to be having a happy ending over here for once

 

[Anastar]

No biggie, Quex. you and I have talked that kind of stuff so often on a friendly basis that I think we sorta forgot that anyone would see it as argumentative. We're just discussing ideas with one another, not debating. Personally, I thought the discussion was interesting so I responded in kind.

And sorry again Lex.... it was my fault, too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

However, if the conclusions drawn from the FTOIL page are different than they were when Ryu first wrote the article, then I would think the change should be announced on the front page.

....

But if it were simply stated on the front page that the FTOIL page recognizes Clerith and Cloti both as romantic pairings, I would be happy with that since it would correct a major error in Ryu's article.

As Lex and I said before, there will not be any new news posts about this, both because TLS wants to move away from association with highlighting a toxic niche topic anyway, and because that would be redundant of the olive branch article I posted in January 2014, which already calls attention to the overall dual canon status of said topic. It also links to the exhaustive study I posted in October 2013 that goes into the minutiae you want discussed specifically.

I've notified Ryu of what I intend to do, by the way, and am awaiting a response.

 

[Anastar]

Okay, Tres. I'm sorry that you won't consider it simply because the Cloli fandom in general seems unaware of your reversal in stance. I say that because of frequent flamers in the Clerith tag on Tumblr who claim that Clloti is canon but Clerth is not and simikar claims on other forums, etc.

But if that is your final decision, I will respect it. Besides, I greatly appreciate your efforts to contact Ryu and provide annotations on his original article. That in itself is very welcome and you have my sincere thanks for doing so.

 

[Geostigma]

Okay, Tres. I'm sorry that you won't consider it simply because the Cloli fandom in general seems unaware of your reversal in stance. I say that because of frequent flamers in the Clerith tag on Tumblr who claim that Clloti is canon but Clerth is not and simikar claims on other forums, etc.

But if that is your final decision, I will respect it. Besides, I greatly appreciate your efforts to contact Ryu and provide annotations on his original article. That in itself is very welcome and you have my sincere thanks for doing so.

Well as stated earlier you could point out the disclaimer for the archive that these articles are in

Ye Olde Vault

Here is where articles with outdated and/or obsolete content, usually deemed so by the authors themselves, are listed. Look to articles in either of the three previous categories for more up-to-date info.

That should drastically slow down any discussion and usage of TLS as a "source" Additionally you can link them this thread where we discussed this with you.

Plus wouldn't it be an awesome "1 up" moment for you, to run into Clotis who completely failed to see the Disclaimer and you can drop a nope bomb with said disclaimer? lol

 

[Tennyo]

Okay, Tres. I'm sorry that you won't consider it simply because the Cloli fandom in general seems unaware of your reversal in stance. I say that because of frequent flamers in the Clerith tag on Tumblr who claim that Clloti is canon but Clerth is not and simikar claims on other forums, etc.

But if that is your final decision, I will respect it. Besides, I greatly appreciate your efforts to contact Ryu and provide annotations on his original article. That in itself is very welcome and you have my sincere thanks for doing so.

Not that I want to drag this on but it goes both ways. Clerith shippers flaming in the Cloti tags. Not to mention I went through a stroll through some of my fave FFVII art on DA shortly after the remake announcement and saw some old Cloti faves with somewhat newer comments being flamed for depicting the "wrong pairing." These people completely ignored the fact that this was phenomenal artwork and just spammed the comments with links to Destiny Fulfilled.

I mean, it's very much a two-way street here. Would you be willing to put a similar disclaimer on your site?

 

[Lex]

I was going to say, there's always going to be ignorant flamers on tumblr. Shipping wars are shipping wars and all that. If people are too stupid to properly read the articles then that's ammo for the other side to use, and that goes both ways.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Can't we all just get a life along?

 

[Tennyo]

In a perfect world.

 

[Splintered]

Ughhhh if this is happening now imagine what's going to happen when the game actually comes out. I don't envy you guys. It hurts just thinking about it.

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[Strangelove]

you say that now but y'all will be there watching like

 

[Anastar]

Not that I want to drag this on but it goes both ways. Clerith shippers flaming in the Cloti tags. Not to mention I went through a stroll through some of my fave FFVII art on DA shortly after the remake announcement and saw some old Cloti faves with somewhat newer comments being flamed for depicting the "wrong pairing." These people completely ignored the fact that this was phenomenal artwork and just spammed the comments with links to Destiny Fulfilled.

True.. I am aware that some Clerith people harass Cloti's but I neither endorse or encourage it. As I said in a previous post, I actually tried to get a "peace treaty" going between the Cloti and Clerith BECAUSE harassment was happening on BOTH sides. Here are links to my attempts:

1. On Tumblr
2 On CxA Forum

The whole point was to stop the harassment on both sides. Both Ryu and Quex stopped by the CxA Forum to help me get it started, but unfortunately it was met with a lot of resistance and hostility. I thought both Ryu and Quex were badly treated, and I apologized to them both for it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the Clerith people simply misunderstood the intention of it.

And BTW, I am not here as a representative of the CxA Forum. I'm here on my own, expressing my own views. Since my views on the LTD as well as relations with the Cloti fandom often conflict with those held by other members of the CxA Forum, I can't say that my views represent theirs.

I mean, it's very much a two-way street here. Would you be willing to put a similar disclaimer on your site?

Yes, I would - but only to the extent that a disclaimer exists on TLS. In other words, if TLS puts annotations and links at the top of the "This Just In..." page, then I will put annotations and links at the top of the "Why Cloti isn't Canon" essay If TLS puts a disclaimer on the front page then I will put a disclaimer on the front page.

So I'm willing to "match" the degree of disclaimer I see on TLS.

Can't we all just get along?

Fine with me...

Ughhhh if this is happening now imagine what's going to happen when the game actually comes out. I don't envy you guys. It hurts just thinking about it.

As I see it - if SE hasn't solved the LTD over so many years, then there's no reason to think they're gonna solve it in the renake. And I - for one - do not believe that SE has solved the LTD for either side.

 

[Geostigma]

Can... Can we just ban LTD from TLS before FF7R comes around lol.

 

[1st Class Soldier]

Hello, I am Our Final Heaven over at Tumblr. Anastar knows me and we have discussed many issues regarding the LTD. We actually talked about the peace treaty, and I posted it up at the cloti forum that I am the owner of.

Unfortunately, in the wake of trying to bring peace we had someone start to troll and creating drama. The LTD is Over article(is there an abbreviation we can use for it lol?) is something this troll uses a lot.

Now, this isn't Ryu's fault nor TLS that this person is shit stirring, but it does cause problems within the fandom. Not everyone is thick skinned enough to ignore or block; it stirs a lot of emotion.

I'm not going to say my stance on whether the article should come down, I'm here asking if it does may I keep my screenshots. Reason I am asking I'm making a cloti data base website.

Reason being, Ana please don't get mad, but when you search cloti there's still a lot of "pro clerith" links that pop up. My goal is for the data base to pop up just as often so people are seeing both sides.

Cloti tumblr blogs pop up but all that does is create tension bc it's mainly people feuding with each other on personal insults. I'd rather have people have a third party source. And if Ryu decides that he wants to take it down, may I still have the article.

This piece of writing has created a lot of stir and I'd like to keep it for my timeline. Basically a piece of history with how emotional this LTD makes people. FFVII has left a wonderful imprint of memories for people and I get why it gets emotional. 99% of the fanbase identifies with Cloud thus creating the "perfect girl" for themselves. For me personally, the LTD is a bunch of people who want to right fight. I want to get away from that and prevent facts.

I hope my post here won't offend any of you guys. I honestly come in peace ^-^;;; I get nervous talking on here ;~;

EDIT: Sorry for typos, i wasl iterally shaking writing this. I'm hungry and get nervous easily ;~;

 

[Jason Tandro]

I'd say I tried to stay out of this one, but that's not true. I tried to as subtly as possible make my views on this one clear. That obviously didn't work. Allow me to be blunt:

1) Tres has already made an explanation of what he plans to do with the article. Our site director and admins have been pretty accomodating of the situation as much as (and frankly quite more than) can be expected. Continuing to ask for more is not going to end well.

2) The idea of a "peace treaty" between two interpretations of a video game story line shows how toxic the debate can be and, frankly, why we at this forum want nothing more to do with it. It is a noble intention I'm sure, in the same way that gathering all the kids in your nursery together to share the toys is a noble intention. It's a patently ridiculous concept.

3) Troll will be trolls; get thicker skin. Even if everything you want to have happens happens, it will not stop trolls from stating that the edit was forced or yadda yadda. Trolls will be trolls; get thicker skin. It's an interpretation of a video game storyline.

 

[vaderSW1]

Hello, I am Our Final Heaven over at Tumblr. Anastar knows me and we have discussed many issues regarding the LTD. We actually talked about the peace treaty, and I posted it up at the cloti forum that I am the owner of.

Unfortunately, in the wake of trying to bring peace we had someone start to troll and creating drama. The LTD is Over article(is there an abbreviation we can use for it lol?) is something this troll uses a lot.

Now, this isn't Ryu's fault nor TLS that this person is shit stirring, but it does cause problems within the fandom. Not everyone is thick skinned enough to ignore or block; it stirs a lot of emotion.

I'm not going to say my stance on whether the article should come down, I'm here asking if it does may I keep my screenshots. Reason I am asking I'm making a cloti data base website.

Reason being, Ana please don't get mad, but when you search cloti there's still a lot of "pro clerith" links that pop up. My goal is for the data base to pop up just as often so people are seeing both sides.

Cloti tumblr blogs pop up but all that does is create tension bc it's mainly people feuding with each other on personal insults. I'd rather have people have a third party source. And if Ryu decides that he wants to take it down, may I still have the article.

This piece of writing has created a lot of stir and I'd like to keep it for my timeline. Basically a piece of history with how emotional this LTD makes people. FFVII has left a wonderful imprint of memories for people and I get why it gets emotional. 99% of the fanbase identifies with Cloud thus creating the "perfect girl" for themselves. For me personally, the LTD is a bunch of people who want to right fight. I want to get away from that and prevent facts.

I hope my post here won't offend any of you guys. I honestly come in peace ^-^;;; I get nervous talking on here ;~;

EDIT: Sorry for typos, i wasl iterally shaking writing this. I'm hungry and get nervous easily ;~;

I don't intend this to sound like I'm being a jerk...but, really, why bother? None of this stuff is life altering. None of it is breaking the internet. For heaven's sake, we are talking about a video game kids. They are meant to be fun. They are meant to bring joy. How is it, that we have taken things so seriously about this game that this silly LTD has become a thing? Something that is still apparently being contested 20 years after the fact.

I truly appreciate the passion but at some point people should take a step back and take a deep breath about this.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Damn Vader ninja'd me.

 

[1st Class Soldier]

Not to be juvenile or rude, but I'm free to do whatever I'd like in my free time. I mean, I do work 16 hour days, I think I have the right to do whatever I want, correct? So if my down time is enjoying all the content I can find for cxt that's my own business, no? I just came here to ask if for some reason Ryu just wants to take it down if it was alright to keep the screencaps I have of it.Which I highly doubt he'll want it to. I really don't care what cxa fans say or do. What they say doesn't bother me. However, there is a lot of information that is twisted and I like for facts to be out there that are correct.

Doesn't affect my life either way. These characters aren't real. Just like you said, they are here for entertainment.

I haven't said something so incredibly wrong that warrants such a response, right? I didn't come in here and try to put you down for what you do, did I? Prefacing something with "I don't intend to sound like a jerk."
doesn't excuse trying to be one.

EDIT: I get you have people who come in here and try to cause a war,but I am not one. I came in here with decency

EDIT OF AN EDIT: I'm honestly taken back because I have never been treated this way by anyone on here. Not that my opinion matters and not that it changed my way of thinking about the TLS. I get you have to have thick skin and big balls to do what you do, but don't ever forget not everyone is here to be crude or rude.

Before you guys reply, I'm just going to exit and PM Ryu myself. You guys have a great day (or night). Anastar, I hope you get some kind of resolve to this situation where your members are happy along with everyone else.

 

[Geostigma]

EDIT: I get you have people who come in here and try to cause a war,but I am not one. I came in here with decency

War... Peace Treaties.. Ugh lol.

I can't think of anyone in a few years who have tried to start a "war". I can recall the LTD being an incredibly lame thread that the majority of the community groans when someone bumps it though.

Were not trying to be condescending regarding your hobby. We just don't take it as seriously as you guys. Shipping is cool and all, but when you start talking "war" and "peace treaties" most of the replies we will have might be "lol" (sorry) or "we don't want that seriousbusiness here".

Again were not trying to tear down what floats your boat. It's just not really something that clicks with us here. I think the current proposed idea is more then adequately a decent compromise.

Coupled with the giant disclaimer regarding the Archive it should do the trick. If it doesn't do the trick then idk what to tell you.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

I am a bit confused. Is the LTD held to different standards than other debates? When I mentioned similar issues earlier in this thread, I was told that they didn't apply, because they were "unrelated to the LTD." Apparently, because I haven't been involved with this specific debate, I just "don't understand how it works." Am I the only one who see's this as an incredibly condescending, not to mention nonsensical dismissal?

I wasn't aware that there was some different criteria by which we treat this all important debate, and that only those who are "in the know" can comprehend the inner machinations of its complexity. And apparently there is some governing body that dictates what is and isn't allowed when providing evidence? Did I miss something?