Exploring possibilities: Part 1 ends with Jenova Birth

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

In the wake of FFVII Remake's disappointing absence from E3, someone on the Remake board on GameFAQs reminded us about one of the earlier 4Chan leaks which seems to be the only one that still holds any ground.

• GameFAQs thread detailing the information given by the leak.
• Original archived 4Chan thread.

By re-reading the whole thing, one sentence caught my attention, mostly because I'm still heavily invested in that subject: "The final boss of the first game is Jenova birth. That's where part 1 ends."

Of course the leaker talks about the cargo ship from Junon to Costa Del Sol. Right?
Well, that's where my idea for a discussion I'd like to start comes in.


What if they moved Jenova Birth to the end of the Midgar segment?

This idea is of course fueled by my strong rejection of part 1 ending on the cargo ship (see here).

Now, before you start throwing spoiled produce towards me, let me explain.

If part 1 ends after the escape from Midgar, the main antagonists of FFVII's story - Sephiroth and Jenova - have had barely any stage time. Sephiroth was mentioned a few times, we saw his sword and Cloud and Barret got a glimpse of a headless Jenova body inside of a container. That's about it. This would most likely feel underwhelming, especially for those who already know the full story of FFVII. Additionally, that Key Art of the FFVII Remake depicts Cloud, Midgar and Sephiroth. A Hint that we might get exposed to a higher presence of the latter.

This lack of screen time could be remedied by introducing Sephiroth in a more elaborate fashion. Of course, that can't be too explicit, because the mystery around the legendary Soldier must be preserved. I think a few more inclusions of him in dialogs and maybe a portrait somewhere should suffice. Then, Jenova as the final boss (after Rufus, Hundred Gunner, Heli Gunner and Motor Ball) would work quite well in my opinion.

Essentially, the battle against Jenova Birth is moved from the cargo ship to the end of Midgar. Same scene unfolds. On the cargo ship, instead of Jenova, one of Hojo's abominations is let loose (by Sephiroth), causes the carnage and must be disposed of by Cloud and company.

I think this can work because it's not quintessential that the first Jenova battle happens on the cargo ship. It just happened there, because it worked best in the original game in terms of pacing. But due to the multi-part nature of the Remake, the pacing will be different.

Sure, the Jenova battle at the end of Midgar could be an additional one, the first in 5 instead of 4. Chip already came up with that idea quite a while ago on GameFAQs. However, I think the trinity of Birth, Life and Death is very fitting, which is why I thought about moving Jenova Birth altogether.

Though, Jenova Conception has a weird but interesting ring to it...

What are your thoughts about this matter?

- Vyzz

 

[ChipNoir]

The only way this'd work in my mind is if Motorball is knocked out of the game by JENOVA itself. A surprise ambush if you will.


The game does set up an opening for it. JENOVA's body is traveling SOMEWHERE in the city while you're escaping. It's not unfeasable to encounter it at the city's edge.

 

[Roger]

Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I can see this working. It would open up the flashback scenes to be introduced differently. More like... "WTF was that thing?" "Looks like something I saw in the Niebel Reactor..." "When did you go there?" "Well..."

You'd have to restructure some stuff, but it sounds like they're doing that anyway...

 

[ChipNoir]

Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.

I think you could pull it off if it's a cold encounter at the edge of Midgar. No explaination, just a very intense fight, and then JENOVA flies away in a flurry of black feathers.

 

[Sprites]

I dunno, it's an interesting premise but I don't feel it would have the same impact.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to have any Jenova battlesor any battles linked to Sephiroth before we even get to Kalm and Cloud explains his story. At that point no one including the player knows what's happened to Sephiroth, who he is except that he seems to have been a highly regarded member of SOLDIER and where Jenova falls into it, it's all still very new territory and I feel like once Cloud explains his story, the player and Cloud's group understand more about Sephiroths motives.

Of course this is a remake so it could be possible to change it up if they wanted but I think having Jenova battle on the ship is a good way to end part one.

The Party at this point have enough information about Sephiroth to start trying to figure out his motives and Cloud doesn't truly believe Sephiroth is alive until he sees him there on the ship, there's something about that and him immediately attacking the party with Jenova that I like and the questions and confusion after just leave it on a good way to end it.

Having the 1st part end with the party being attacked by one of Hojo's monsters even if it is by Sephiroth would seen less impactful to me

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that the first part should really focus on the strength of keeping the story as focused on Cloud, Midgar, & Sephiroth as possible – especially if we don't get out of Midgar or past the First Continent (which I'd be amazed if we did). Yes, we have INKLINGS of Jenova and mad science, but nothing that's fully formed until we hit the Jenova Birth encounter on the ship, and I don't see them pushing part one that far.

Additionally, I don't really dig the idea of restructuring JUST so that each part has its own JENOVA fight, because it seems unnecessary. Even if it's 3 parts I think that having no Jenova fights to start, then having Jenova Birth & Life, and lastly having Death & Synthesis provide a more cohesive experience for the context of those fights. Birth & Life are all about Jenova showing its full power and fearing it, whereas Death and Synthesis are about giving up the Sephiroth body ruse and really focusing on Reunion.

The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.





X

 

[pxp]

I certainly understand the appeal in the sense that it’s a good compromise of sorts. But I actually think it undermines your very own well-defined and persuasively argued theory, Vyzzuvazzadth, that the Arc of Act 1 ought to be that of Avalanche versus Shinra. I know the counter-argument could be that Jenova-Sephiroth are introduced at the tail end of this arc anyway. But I think a boss fight with Jenova as the crescendo of said arc is thematically jarring. This I think holds from a narrative-perspective, at least in my opinion. But there are of course many other factors to consider.

 

[ChipNoir]

On second thought, Motorball does make for a better final boss. It represents the technology might of ShinRa, which if it does end at part 1 in Midgar, is the only real antagonist.



So I think I might be against the JENOVA thing after all. They just really need to sell Motorball as a final-boss level encounter, rather than just one of many bosses encountered in that arc. Helligunner and Hundred Gunner were far more difficult than Motorball, especially if you're prepared with fire ring and elemental fire set ups.

 

[looneymoon]

It's been a while since I've played the game, so the sequence of events are pretty hazy. I think the restructuring in the story's pacing will depend entirely on how much each episode covers, and how long they are. I figured the first of an episodic release might encompass Midgar, and maybe have dramatic end/beginning of pt 2 with the Nibelheim flashback? If they decide to have a Jenova appear as a boss earlier, I think it would be more appropriate to incorporate it into that sequence as opposed to having a Midgar fight.

Hell, maybe we could even get an excuse to have Sephiroth be playable in a Jenova boss fight. Have it take place internally, foreshadowing to the end of game Cloud vs Sephiroth one on one at the end of the game. Just an idea.

If this leak is real, I find that placing more appropriate for the first Jenova encounter than in the present day timeline. The Junon cargo ship feels like a lot of content for one chapter. Midgar is interesting enough a location that I could easily see it taking a whole section of its own. I am not sure how well Jenova fits into the first run through Midgar if we assume that we are getting all the content present in the OG.

I dunno - it's really hard to say how this could work without knowing the scope of each chapter compared to the entire, completed game.

 

[HylianMogget]

Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.

I dunno, it's an interesting premise but I don't feel it would have the same impact.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to have any Jenova battlesor any battles linked to Sephiroth before we even get to Kalm and Cloud explains his story. At that point no one including the player knows what's happened to Sephiroth, who he is except that he seems to have been a highly regarded member of SOLDIER and where Jenova falls into it, it's all still very new territory and I feel like once Cloud explains his story, the player and Cloud's group understand more about Sephiroths motives.

I agree with these points. I think the lack of information about Sephiroth and Jenova during the opening Midgar bit is key to the pace of the (original) game, and I think the trail of blood sequence in the Shinra building would have less of an impact, and be less eerie, if you fight Jenova right away. I think how the Jenova and Sephiroth stuff is hinted at, but not explained in detail, until you get to Kalm is very effective - the scope of the game world literally opens up (the world map) and the scope of the conflict expands. Of course, the pacing in the remake will probably be quite different, and it's interesting to think about possible rearrangements.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Thank you all for your valuable feedback and inputs.

I need to clarify a few points first:

• My idea of moving Jenova Birth to the end of the Midgar section was to have part 1 end at Midgar while still having it end on Jenova Birth (assuming that the linked leak was real).
• Replacing Jenova Birth with some Hojo experiment would therefore not be as much of a deal, since the game would not end on the cargo ship with that "random" boss. It would just be another boss in the storyline during part 2 like Bottom Swell before entering Junon.
• I myself am still in favor of retaining the original chain of events with a split after Midgar and when Sephiroth summons Meteor, as detailed in my video, preferring Jenova Birth being encountered on the cargo ship for mostly the same reasons given in this thread (encounter too shortly after the Trail of Blood, too little build-up, less impact overall etc.)
• Additionaly, having each part end on a Jenova battle isn't really a concern of mine. That's not the reason I was entertaining this idea. I personally would even prefer if Jenova Birth, Life and Death were all encountered within part 2 (Flashback to the Summoning of Meteor) to support the theme of the Reunion that starts with the Flashback and ends when Sephiroth summons Meteor.
• From a storytelling perspective, ending part 1 on the cargo ship has much more cons than pros. In the end, it boils down to either heavily altering the story to force a narrative arc from the Bombing Mission to the cargo ship, OR ending with a cheap "To Be Continued..." in the middle of a narrative arc. In my view, that's worse than being able to seeing the world outside Midgar or learning more about Sephiroth in part 1. Several gameplay related problems arise as well, like backtracking and endgame content.

In any case, it's all about exploring possibilities, as the title says. Though I still think my proposed scenario has some merit. However, certain things need to change to increase impact and not taking away any momentum from the flashback at the beginning of part 2.

Like Obsidian Fire said:

You'd have to restructure some stuff, but it sounds like they're doing that anyway...

While I addressed most points in the list above, I'd like to directly reply to the following:

The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.

This paragraph confuses me. The whole Midgar section has nothing to do with chasing Sephiroth, save for the very end, but even then, it's more about escaping Midgar. The chase really begins with Clouds resolution at the end of the highway, which would be the end of part 1 in my proposed scenario (in the video and here).

The chase after Sephiroth really takes off after the flashback and ends at the Northern Crater, which would encompass my proposed part 2. Theme of part 1 is Shinra/Midgar and the themes of part 2 would be chasing Sephiroth and the Reunion. If part 1 ends on the cargo ship only about the last quarter of the game contains the chase after Sephiroth, which is still in full swing when the game ends. This doesn't make for good story telling, at least if you want to provide a full and unique experience for each part, as Square Enix plans to do.

I also fail to see what the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot has to do with eco-terrorism. The latter is directly linked to Shinra exploiting the planet for energy used for profit and to make their lives more convenient. Sure, Sephiroth is linked to Shinra and Mako, but thematically, those 2 are very different. Sephiroth plans to become a god and is Cloud's nemesis. While Shinra's Mako and Jenova experiments led to the creation of Sephiroth, the eco-terrorist part of the plot is restricted to Avalanche and the part of Shinra that exploits the planet.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Quick note: Part 1 doesn't necessarily need to end on the Cargo Ship. The argument overall is that we hold off on introducing Jenova battles COMPLETELY until Part 2.

While I addressed most points in the list above, I'd like to directly reply to the following:

The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.

This paragraph confuses me. The whole Midgar section has nothing to do with chasing Sephiroth, save for the very end, but even then, it's more about escaping Midgar. The chase really begins with Clouds resolution at the end of the highway, which would be the end of part 1 in my proposed scenario (in the video and here).

The chase after Sephiroth really takes off after the flashback and ends at the Northern Crater, which would encompass my proposed part 2. Theme of part 1 is Shinra/Midgar and the themes of part 2 would be chasing Sephiroth and the Reunion. If part 1 ends on the cargo ship only about the last quarter of the game contains the chase after Sephiroth, which is still in full swing when the game ends. This doesn't make for good story telling, at least if you want to provide a full and unique experience for each part, as Square Enix plans to do.

I also fail to see what the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot has to do with eco-terrorism. The latter is directly linked to Shinra exploiting the planet for energy used for profit and to make their lives more convenient. Sure, Sephiroth is linked to Shinra and Mako, but thematically, those 2 are very different. Sephiroth plans to become a god and is Cloud's nemesis. While Shinra's Mako and Jenova experiments led to the creation of Sephiroth, the eco-terrorist part of the plot is restricted to Avalanche and the part of Shinra that exploits the planet.

I think that your confusion is around the idea that Part 1 is ending with the Cargo Ship, which isn't necessarily the case. Where the arc ends isn't clear, but I think that the general consensus is that Jenova doesn't need to be brought in during the first game. That's especially because there's going to be a gap between the first part and the next one. Hence why the first part of the game should focus more on chasing after Sephiroth AND the anti-Shinra eco-terrorism bits.

Those two go hand-in-hand despite not being directly related thematically, because at the start of the game everything starts out with AVALANCHE VS. Shinra with a heavy focus on anti-corporate, pro-environmental terrorism and the atrocities being committed on both sides. Then, it slowly shifts towards the Cloud & Sephiroth relationship that's also tied up with Shinra via Hojo's mad science and their past together. That's how we move from the initial objective, but still maintain Shinra as important bad guys while making the Sephiroth side of the conflict something personal for Cloud, and by extension the players.

The first game's focus should be around establishing the stakes when it comes to Shinra & Sephiroth above and beyond all else. It will lay the groundwork for for the strange alien connections things to come in parts with with Hojo and Nibelheim, but those are VERY much something to bring in in the second act. If you have to make one game feel self-contained, but also a satisfying first act, it's easier to avoid focus on direct confrontation with Jenova outright rather than reconfigure events to ensure that Jenova Birth makes it in by placing her encounter elsewhere.

Essentially – Why put Jenova Birth into the first part of the game at all? Why not end before reaching that point in the story?




X

 

[Roger]

I feel Barret put it most aptly following the first time he looked on Jenova, he spake "Where's it's $#&*&@ head? This whole thing's stupid. Let's keep goin'."

If we encounter Jenova a second time before Cloud's story, we haven't really had time to gather any more elaborate thoughts on Jenova then Barret has. Jenova would be a more important endboss to Part 1 then Motorball, but we don't know why yet. It's really no different from Sample:H0512 at this point. If they need to juice up the Midgar escape, they should capitalise on Rufus, or potential SOLDIER encounters.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

@X-Soldier:
Ok, that clears up a few things. And after some more thoughts about this issue, I agree that Jenova shouldn't be an important entity in part 1, as Minato put it with the comparison to Barret's line. It's better to relegate everything Jenova-related (and Sephiroth-related for that matter) to part 2, aside from those bits and pieces already existing within Midgar (headless Jenova and the Masamune).

What I still don't understand is why you're talking about the chase for Sephiroth in part one. There's no chase happening before Cloud's resolution at the end of the highway. Before they see the Masamune protruding from President Shinra's corpse, Sephiroth is believed dead and the story doesn't care about him before that incident, and nobody is chasing after him.

As mentioned before, the actual chase after Sephiroth starts after the flashback. And if part 1 should also set up and contain the chase after Sephiroth, it has to contain much more than just the flashback and the impaled Midgar Zolom or else we're left with mere beginnings of a storyline that don't go anywhere. That's where the cargo ship comes in, since the confrontation with him and Jenova there is an important part of that chase. Same goes for the Gold Saucer (even if it's just a Red Herring), Nibelheim and of course the Temple of the Ancients and later the City of the Ancients for the low point in the story arc.

In short, I agree that if we want to have a cohesive and self-contained part 1, we should focus on Midgar and the struggles against Shinra (eco terrorism, exploitation of the planet, oppressed people, class differences etc.). What I don't agree with is conflating the chase after Sephiroth with the whole Midgar segment. Both differ fundamentally in terms of themes, motivations and conflicts. At least from the perspective of the story. Plot-wise, everything in FFVII is connected. But plot and story progression are not the same thing.

I agree that there's a nice and organic transition from the battle against Shinra to the chase after Sephiroth. However, there's still a clear cut from a storytelling perspective between escaping Midgar and Cloud telling his story in the flashback. As there is one between Sephiroth summoning Meteor and the execution at Junon. That's why I think those 2 points are the best ones to split the individual parts.

I hope I could present my case in a understandable manner. For some reason this specific topic has me struggling to convey my points (maybe because English is not my first language). In any case, I hope you understand where I'm coming from ^^


P.S.: It's funny how I ultimately undermined my own suggestion in this topic. But as pxp mentioned:

But I actually think it undermines your very own well-defined and persuasively argued theory, Vyzzuvazzadth, that the Arc of Act 1 ought to be that of Avalanche versus Shinra.

Which is a fair point. I guess I shot myself in the foot with this one, but it was a fun exploration nonetheless.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

What I still don't understand is why you're talking about the chase for Sephiroth in part one. There's no chase happening before Cloud's resolution at the end of the highway. Before they see the Masamune protruding from President Shinra's corpse, Sephiroth is believed dead and the story doesn't care about him before that incident, and nobody is chasing after him.

As mentioned before, the actual chase after Sephiroth starts after the flashback. And if part 1 should also set up and contain the chase after Sephiroth, it has to contain much more than just the flashback and the impaled Midgar Zolom or else we're left with mere beginnings of a storyline that don't go anywhere. That's where the cargo ship comes in, since the confrontation with him and Jenova there is an important part of that chase. Same goes for the Gold Saucer (even if it's just a Red Herring), Nibelheim and of course the Temple of the Ancients and later the City of the Ancients for the low point in the story arc.

I brought up the chase after Sephiroth, because – while a lot of the legwork in doing that takes place across later parts of the game like you mentioned – ultimately that's how the first part of the Story Arc in the game transitions: FROM primarily anti-Shinra activities solely in Midgar TO primarily pursuit of Sephiroth out into the wider world. That's what the thematic focus of the first arc should try and hit home on, because it's going to introduce the players heavily to everything in Midgar, and then work on transitioning focus from that point forward out into the wider world to be more thoroughly explored in later parts.





X

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

I brought up the chase after Sephiroth, because – while a lot of the legwork in doing that takes place across later parts of the game like you mentioned – ultimately that's how the first part of the Story Arc in the game transitions: FROM primarily anti-Shinra activities solely in Midgar TO primarily pursuit of Sephiroth out into the wider world. That's what the thematic focus of the first arc should try and hit home on, because it's going to introduce the players heavily to everything in Midgar, and then work on transitioning focus from that point forward out into the wider world to be more thoroughly explored in later parts.

Ah, I see. Gotcha. I guess I keep focusing too much on separating the different parts and trying to discern what content goes into which part that I missed the point you were trying to make.

So, to make sure I understood your point: You would support the idea of part one encompassing solely Midgar if the themes and goals that follow in part 2 are clearly hinted at during the end of part one and set up in a way that the player is aware of what's at stake and what's to come while also meshing everything from part one with the setup for part 2.

If not, how would you propose part one should end?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Pretty much, yeah. I think that Kalm & the Chocobo Farm and some things would make sense to expand the content a little bit beyond JUST Midgar. It could even run to Junon, but one of the things to keep in mind with a self-contained game is that the endgame needs to let the player still wander about. Ending on the Cargo Ship doesn't give that sort of freedom, and it ends on a weird cliffhanger.

Personally, I think that doing the Junon things up-to-but-not-including the infiltration onto the Cargo ship is a good place to wrap part 1. It lets you get a feel for Shinra & Midgar vs. the world. You get a little time chasing Sephiroth around. You get all the Kalm backstory and such, and you also come and go as you wish to keep players engaged for the endgame stuff.

Then, part 2 starts off with the same feel of Shinra-infiltration and chasing Sephiroth and you get hit right out of the gate with the Jenova wrench in the story where you can focus on the mystery of what's up with her and Sephiroth.




X

 

[Kain424]

So much of this depends on just how much they expand and/or change things. If they REALLY expand on Midgar, they could do an entire game out of it. It really does have its own arc, and would work well for a first game. And if they expanded Kalm, Junon, the mines, and made the world that much bigger, it could make for a different and engaging second chapter. All the way up to Sephiroth summoning Meteor and ending on a down note, just like how everyone so fondly remembers The Empire Strikes Back.

A lot of interesting possibilities here. I do like the idea of starting the third chapter as Tifa or someone.

 

[Theozilla]

I think Junon should be the last explorable endgame area of the first part, with the Cargo ship being the final dungeon area with Jenova as the final boss. If the first part is going to into Junon, I just don't think any other final boss except Jenova makes for a fitting final boss for the first part. And the reason why I don't think ending with the escape from Midgar would as well is because I think giving a preview of the explorable world in the first installment is important to enticing players for future parts (plus I think Kalm flashback is essential for the first part too).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This discussion is fun for me in that I see the merits of different possible end points to Part 1. In terms of overall game balance, though (i.e. treating each installment as its own complete game), I feel like the cargo ship will have to be the final dungeon of sorts for Part 1.

The player will have Junon, Kalm and the wilderness in between to explore and do side quests within to hearts' content (the player's reward for getting this far), and getting on the cargo ship will function as ye olde "final dungeon point of no return" that we expect from JRPGs.

With proper build-up, the parade-to-cargo-ship sequence could be made to have all the feel of a proper showdown. It even has all the major enemies in one place, just as the Reunion will again later (a good end point for Part 2).

Ending this first installment with the cargo ship would also allow Part 2 to start in a much different way from Part 1: at a sunny seaside resort with the open world waiting just outside from the get-go rather than in a perpetually dark city with the open world only being endgame content.

The only real question for me is whether it should still be possible to meet Yuffie prior to the cargo ship. I don't think it would serve her or the story well to introduce her so close to the end of what should feel like a complete game, so it might be best to just hold off on her until Part 2.

This would also allow Part 2 to feel more balanced with Part 1, introducing four new playable characters to the first installment's initial five.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Caution: huge wall of text ahead!



As soon as you include the flashback and thus Sephiroth's proper introduction in part 1 but don't provide any resolution or even answers for all that setup by the end of the game, it's not a complete experience anymore, nor a wrapped up story arc. You don't just introduce a new villain and threat and even story arc near the end of a game, just to leave the player hanging, which is what will happen, if part 1 ends on the cargo ship (or even just before Junon for that matter).

I do see the beauty of Jenova Birth being the final boss of part 1. We know about Sephiroth, his downfall, his plans, we started the main quest of the story and we faced off with Jenova/Sephiroth just before the end of the game. When looking at those things in a bubble, it seems perfect. However, there are other factor to consider.



The Remake won't just be played by us hardcore fans who know as good as everything about the original game there is to know. There will be players that maybe only played the original once, some that heard of it but never got around to play it and of course those that are completely unfamiliar with it. For us fans, it seems that the flashback is integral to the story and therefore has to be in part one or that the player needs to see and experience the world outside of Midgar in part 1.

I think most of us are looking at the Remake with the lens of enthusiasts having the full knowledge of the game and I think that's not the right approach. Try to look at the Remake as a complete new entity. What if it wasn't a remake but a completely new game, split up into a trilogy of games to fit the whole vision without any compromise (kind of like FFvXIII was going to be before everything got scrapped and rebuilt in a condensed form)? Of course you'd try to make each game as cohesive and complete as possible, especially when there will be a long waiting period between installments.

From the perspective of a new player who knows nothing about the story, it doesn't matter if Sephiroth is introduced in part one or not. It's even to the detriment of their experience if Sephiroth gets introduced as the main badass villain and part 1 ends without any sort of explanation or buildup beyond the flashback, the kebap'd Midgar Zolom and the first battle against Jenova. It would be even worse without that first battle against Jenova, as X-Soldier suggested. However you twist and turn it, part 1 will always end in an unsatisfactory cliffhanger if it ends shortly after the flashback. It wouldn't even wrap up Rufus's arc who gets introduced at the very end of the Midgar section and is a crucial part of the whole Junon segment.



Now, picture part 1 ending with the escape from Midgar. The whole conflict with Shinra as that exploitative and oppressive mega corporation ends at the end of the game. Because it is part 1 of supposedly 3, we of course need a few hooks and glimpses for part 2 to make the player want to play that one as well but without leaving them hanging with unfinished business. Those are Rufus, Sephiroth and Jenova. Rufus introduces a new and different era for Shinra and thus becomes a different and yet unknown antagonist. Great anticipation for future parts. Sephiroth, presumed dead, has returned. A new conflict for Cloud (and Tifa) is on the horizon. Jenova, yet another unknown entity, has also escaped. 3 entities that introduce new threats and antagonists for future parts. That's a great cliffhanger because setup and conflicts have either been resolved or don't matter anymore (President Shinra is dead, there's no home to return to, Aerith has been rescued and there is a new threat on the rise that's bigger than just the people of Midgar).

The proposition by X-Soldier might work better as a resolution to part 1, but only if the battle for Fort Condor is the focus for the end of part 1 and is greatly expanded upon. It's still a battle against Shinra, so it fits thematically at least. But still, the introduction of Sephiroth has no bearing on that and would feel out of place and unfinished, especially because it doesn't have anything to do with the battle for Fort Condor.

As for part 2 starting at Costa Del Sol instead of Kalm: besides a refreshing change of pace by starting a game at a beach resort (Star Ocean 3 sort of did that, but it transitioned into a completely different direction after that compared to FFVII) and having time to spend with the characters, there's nothing remotely good about it being a starting point. It starts in the middle of an arc and there would be a need for a big explanation on what happened before, since everything that will happen hinges on exposition and setup from part 1. Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game, not in the prequel. The first really interesting story beat doesn't happen until Gold Saucer, which doesn't even have much to do with the overall story and serves mainly Barret's character arc. Not a very good start if you ask me.

For us fans, that's less of a problem, since we're already invested in the story and know all of it. For people who will experience FFVII for the first time, this will greatly diminish their enjoyment, since it wouldn't follow established standards for storytelling and to a certain extent gameplay structure. Just imagine if Star Wars: A New Hope ended with the rebels escaping planet Hoth with Luke on his way to the Dagobah system instead of the victory ceremony after the destruction of the Death Star. That would not feel right at all.



That's my main issue with all other possible break off points besides the escape from Midgar and the summoning of Meteor. FFVII is still a story driven game and thus the storytelling structure makes or breaks the experience (not the game, the experience).

I might sound like a broken record by now (apologies for that), but no matter how I try to find and see the benefits of other splitting points, I always end up returning to the conclusion in my initial analysis.

Not to say it's impossible. If they somehow manage to pull it off ending part 1 at around Junon, I'll pull my fedora and congratulate SE.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The "Fashback at Kalm" has always felt like Sephiroth's real introduction to me. Having the game end on that, or even after that while in the middle of chasing him feels weird. It would make for a great start of a game though.

There's a lot of hints in the flashback that something is majorly wrong with Cloud's memories too. While there's hints back in Midgar, they're nothing more then hints and could easily be someone else rather then a faulty mismatched memory. The scenes in the Neibelhiem reactor are a direct call-back to Cloud having issues in the Midgar reactor. Having the game end on the player knowing Cloud has memory issues with no explanation would also feel weird.

Cliffhangers that do work, work because almost everything in the story/arc/etc. is tied up except for the cliffhanger. Ending Sephiroth's arc after the flashback but before Temple of the Ancients or Meteor isn't so much a cliffhanger as it is cutting an arc in half. There's so much left unresolved that it doesn't leave a feeling of "What happens next?", but "Why did the storyteller stop here?".

The one option I haven't seen people mention for an end-game type scenario is having parts of Midgar be the end-game. We've got eight sectors to explore and the OG only takes place in like... three of them, if that. I could easily think of ways for the party to go back under the plate after escaping from Moterball ("We need supplies for a journey across the Midgar Wastes, let's go back and get some."). Then you could start the next game in Kalm with the whammy of the flashback.

 

[Roger]

Caution: huge wall of text ahead!



As soon as you include the flashback and thus Sephiroth's proper introduction in part 1 but don't provide any resolution or even answers for all that setup by the end of the game, it's not a complete experience anymore, nor a wrapped up story arc. You don't just introduce a new villain and threat and even story arc near the end of a game, just to leave the player hanging, which is what will happen, if part 1 ends on the cargo ship (or even just before Junon for that matter).

I do see the beauty of Jenova Birth being the final boss of part 1. We know about Sephiroth, his downfall, his plans, we started the main quest of the story and we faced off with Jenova/Sephiroth just before the end of the game. When looking at those things in a bubble, it seems perfect. However, there are other factor to consider.



The Remake won't just be played by us hardcore fans who know as good as everything about the original game there is to know. There will be players that maybe only played the original once, some that heard of it but never got around to play it and of course those that are completely unfamiliar with it. For us fans, it seems that the flashback is integral to the story and therefore has to be in part one or that the player needs to see and experience the world outside of Midgar in part 1.

I think most of us are looking at the Remake with the lens of enthusiasts having the full knowledge of the game and I think that's not the right approach. Try to look at the Remake as a complete new entity. What if it wasn't a remake but a completely new game, split up into a trilogy of games to fit the whole vision without any compromise (kind of like FFvXIII was going to be before everything got scrapped and rebuilt in a condensed form)? Of course you'd try to make each game as cohesive and complete as possible, especially when there will be a long waiting period between installments.

From the perspective of a new player who knows nothing about the story, it doesn't matter if Sephiroth is introduced in part one or not. It's even to the detriment of their experience if Sephiroth gets introduced as the main badass villain and part 1 ends without any sort of explanation or buildup beyond the flashback, the kebap'd Midgar Zolom and the first battle against Jenova. It would be even worse without that first battle against Jenova, as X-Soldier suggested. However you twist and turn it, part 1 will always end in an unsatisfactory cliffhanger if it ends shortly after the flashback. It wouldn't even wrap up Rufus's arc who gets introduced at the very end of the Midgar section and is a crucial part of the whole Junon segment.



Now, picture part 1 ending with the escape from Midgar. The whole conflict with Shinra as that exploitative and oppressive mega corporation ends at the end of the game. Because it is part 1 of supposedly 3, we of course need a few hooks and glimpses for part 2 to make the player want to play that one as well but without leaving them hanging with unfinished business. Those are Rufus, Sephiroth and Jenova. Rufus introduces a new and different era for Shinra and thus becomes a different and yet unknown antagonist. Great anticipation for future parts. Sephiroth, presumed dead, has returned. A new conflict for Cloud (and Tifa) is on the horizon. Jenova, yet another unknown entity, has also escaped. 3 entities that introduce new threats and antagonists for future parts. That's a great cliffhanger because setup and conflicts have either been resolved or don't matter anymore (President Shinra is dead, there's no home to return to, Aerith has been rescued and there is a new threat on the rise that's bigger than just the people of Midgar).

The death of President Shinra does not mark the end of the fight against Shinra and I think it's mistake to reimagine FFVII's story to present it as such to new players. Sephiroth murders President Shinra to prevent him from finding the Promised Land, without any explanation as to who he isbeyond that he more important to Cloud then anything that has been happening thus far. Red XIII joins the party without any explanation of who he is. Rufus Shinra is introduced, is fought and escapes, The Turks destroy Sector 7, killing a lot of the supporting cast along with it and are barely encountered again afterwards, Hojo is introduced but not dealt with at all.

I understand that a Part 1 ending at Junon has problems but let's not get carried away with presenting a Part 1 ending at Midgar as by any means a closed off and completed story that doesn't leave unfinished business. All that's accomplished is rescuing Aeris, but Aeris' peril is not the main story arc Cloud, Barret and Tifa are following.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think we're all expecting the game to stick too closely to the OG's pacing at this point. Having Midgar take more time and spending more time with Avalanche could lead to us learning a lot more about Shin-Ra compared to what we know when we leave Midgar in the OG. That could change the feeling and pacing of the game's first section a lot.

While President Shinra dying is not the end of the fight against Shin-Ra, it does mark the end of an era for Shin-Ra, and therefore the end of an era for Avalanche. Rufus says he runs things very differently then his father did. The game could easily expand on how President Shin-Ra ran things before Rufus' takeover happened. President's Shin-Ra's death could then lead to the party speculating afterwards about how Shinra would change and not finding out about it until the next game when they go to Junon. You then can introduce both Sephiroth and Rufus as the new things to fight against at relatively the same time.

Part 1 ending at Midgar leaves the players with two distinct questions to answer next game. What is going to happen to Shin-Ra now that the president is dead and his son (who says he doesn't like how his father did things) has now taken over? What is Sephiroth doing alive when we know he's dead? Kalm though the end of the Northern Crater answer both those questions.

My concern about ending Part 1 after Kalm or after Junon is that the questions the player is left with aren't so distinct. What really happened in the Neibelheim reactor? Is Cloud's memory even trustworthy? What does Jenova have to do with all this? Is Shinra being involved with this just a coincidence? Would this have been a problem even without Shinra? Maybe that Hojo guy plays a bigger role in all this then we think? etc.

Nothing is settled, there's just more and more questions. Midgar at least settles the current Avalanche vs. old Shin-Ra conflict to make way for the new Avalanche vs. new Shin-ra conflict (which sometimes involves them agreeing on goals even if they don't agree on the method) and even the Avalanche vs Sephiroth conflict which is the only conflict that is really ended in the OG.