Exploring possibilities: Part 1 ends with Jenova Birth

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Rufus and his dad are different types of tyrants but AVALANCHE is about stopping the use of Mako Reactors, no suggestion whatsoever is made that President Shinra's death will mark any kind of end to this and it would require a rather substantial change in Rufus' character to change this for the Remake.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
Rufus and his dad are different types of tyrants but AVALANCHE is about stopping the use of Mako Reactors, no suggestion whatsoever is made that President Shinra's death will mark any kind of end to this and it would require a rather substantial change in Rufus' character to change this for the Remake.

Yes and no. I think this argument is a little pedantic however (respectfully). Things are obviously subject to change, but, I mean, on learning of Shinra-senior’s death Barret is pretty excited for a brief moment (as in, he clearly thinks it’s a game changer - and indeed it is, as it changes the complexion of the politics of this world, and the nature of the enemy, and so on). But then he quickly comes to his senses when Shinra-Jnr arrives on the scene (“Damn! Forgot about him!” or words to that effect).

In other words I think there’s enough there to close the initial arc (and indeed merge into the next one).
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
The point of the end of the Midgar arc is not to achieve Avalanche's initial goal. That slowly changes throughout the whole Midgar arc anyway. After the second reactor bombing, they find out about a move from Shinra against Avalanche. The focus shifts from offense to defense, ending in the destruction of sector 7 during which Aerith gets abducted. Next goal, rescue her. It's always against Shinra, but for gradually different reasons depending on circumstance. After President Shinra is killed, those immediate threats subside (manhunt for Avalanche and abducting Aerith). While Midgar still sucks Mako from the planet, the new threat, Sephiroth is more pressing in that moment, especially for Cloud and Tifa, than bombing more reactors. And Avalanche is still on the run, so going back to Midgar isn't possible at the moment. In addition to that, where would they go back to? Their home is destroyed. So it's better to focus on a new task while keeping Shinra in peripheral view for the moment.

The one option I haven't seen people mention for an end-game type scenario is having parts of Midgar be the end-game. We've got eight sectors to explore and the OG only takes place in like... three of them, if that. I could easily think of ways for the party to go back under the plate after escaping from Moterball ("We need supplies for a journey across the Midgar Wastes, let's go back and get some."). Then you could start the next game in Kalm with the whammy of the flashback.
I like that idea as long as they only stick to the slums. It would be too risky on the upper plate.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Rufus and his dad are different types of tyrants but AVALANCHE is about stopping the use of Mako Reactors, no suggestion whatsoever is made that President Shinra's death will mark any kind of end to this and it would require a rather substantial change in Rufus' character to change this for the Remake.

Yes and no. I think this argument is a little pedantic however (respectfully). Things are obviously subject to change, but, I mean, on learning of Shinra-senior’s death Barret is pretty excited for a brief moment (as in, he clearly thinks it’s a game changer - and indeed it is, as it changes the complexion of the politics of this world, and the nature of the enemy, and so on). But then he quickly comes to his senses when Shinra-Jnr arrives on the scene (“Damn! Forgot about him!” or words to that effect).

In other words I think there’s enough there to close the initial arc (and indeed merge into the next one).

As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Yep. It would only be the slums. In the OG we go to the Sector 5, 6, and 7 slums. That leaves five slum areas we never see. Turning them into an "end-game" area that aren't necessarily plot relevant could be one way to help Midgar seem bigger. You'd even have the excuse that since Avalanche has never operated in those slums, Shinra doesn't have all that much of a reason to look for them there.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.

Again, things are subject to change. But the following - hopefully expanded - does more than enough to hint at what you're alluding to here:

"Rufus: But, I do things differently. I'll control the world with fear. It takes too much to do it like my old man.
Rufus:A little fear will control the minds of the common people. There's no reason to waste money on them.
Tifa:He likes to make speeches just like his father.
Cloud: Get outta this building with Aerith!
Barret: What?
Cloud: I'll explain later! Barret! This is the real crisis for the Planet!
Barret:The hell's that supposed to mean?
Cloud:I'll tell you later! Just take my word for it now! I'll go after I take care of him!
Barret:Awright, Cloud!
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
Rufus and his dad are different types of tyrants but AVALANCHE is about stopping the use of Mako Reactors, no suggestion whatsoever is made that President Shinra's death will mark any kind of end to this and it would require a rather substantial change in Rufus' character to change this for the Remake.

Yes and no. I think this argument is a little pedantic however (respectfully). Things are obviously subject to change, but, I mean, on learning of Shinra-senior’s death Barret is pretty excited for a brief moment (as in, he clearly thinks it’s a game changer - and indeed it is, as it changes the complexion of the politics of this world, and the nature of the enemy, and so on). But then he quickly comes to his senses when Shinra-Jnr arrives on the scene (“Damn! Forgot about him!” or words to that effect).

In other words I think there’s enough there to close the initial arc (and indeed merge into the next one).

As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.
It's clear that Shinra is the culprit. Barret keeps referencing them. So it's very clear from the start that Shinra is bad and has to pay for sucking Mako out of the planet. And what you're criticizing can be easily solved by a little more explanation. And as I illustrated before, Avalanche's motivation for what they are doing keeps shifting because circumstances change and call for different actions. If Avalanche kept ignoring everything around them and kept bombing reactors until all were gone, would you be happy? That would make for a very bad story. There would be no growth, no change, no evolution and Avalanche would probably meet their end halfway through. They need to adapt to what's happening around them and to them. Also, while bombing all reactors would stop Shinra from sucking Mako out of the planet for a while, everyone else in Midgar, especially the citizens would suffer. And I believe that even Barret would see that eventually, if they kept playing that bombing game. Heck, the first reactor bombing already caused several civilian deaths.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.
Again, things are subject to change. But I think the following dialogue - hopefully and probably expanded - pretty much covers what you're saying here:

Rufus: But, I do things differently. I'll control the world with fear. It takes too much to do it like my old man.
Rufus: A little fear will control the minds of the common people. There's no reason to waste money on them.
Tifa: He likes to make speeches just like his father.
Cloud: Get outta this building with Aeris!
Barret: What?
Cloud: I'll explain later! Barret! This is the real crisis for the Planet!
Barret: The hell's that supposed to mean?
Cloud: I'll tell you later! Just take my word for it now!
I'll go after I take care of him!
Barret: Awright, Cloud!
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Yes and no. I think this argument is a little pedantic however (respectfully). Things are obviously subject to change, but, I mean, on learning of Shinra-senior’s death Barret is pretty excited for a brief moment (as in, he clearly thinks it’s a game changer - and indeed it is, as it changes the complexion of the politics of this world, and the nature of the enemy, and so on). But then he quickly comes to his senses when Shinra-Jnr arrives on the scene (“Damn! Forgot about him!” or words to that effect).

In other words I think there’s enough there to close the initial arc (and indeed merge into the next one).

As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.
It's clear that Shinra is the culprit. Barret keeps referencing them. So it's very clear from the start that Shinra is bad and has to pay for sucking Mako out of the planet. And what you're criticizing can be easily solved by a little more explanation. And as I illustrated before, Avalanche's motivation for what they are doing keeps shifting because circumstances change and call for different actions. If Avalanche kept ignoring everything around them and kept bombing reactors until all were gone, would you be happy? That would make for a very bad story. There would be no growth, no change, no evolution and Avalanche would probably meet their end halfway through. They need to adapt to what's happening around them and to them. Also, while bombing all reactors would stop Shinra from sucking Mako out of the planet for a while, everyone else in Midgar, especially the citizens would suffer. And I believe that even Barret would see that eventually, if they kept playing that bombing game. Heck, the first reactor bombing already caused several civilian deaths.

My point is that leaving Midgar is not the objectively perfect end point for Part 1 it's currently presented as. It neither the first nor the last tme AVALANCHE adjusts it's active mission and it's not the end of them fighting Shinra. It has it's pros and cons as an end point. Maybe it's favourable to Junon but moving Jenova by no means addresses it's substantial cons.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I think visiting every Sector would make the world seem smaller, not bigger.

"Wait, this is all Midgar is?" That's how it usually goes with me, anyway.

Do we know how many parts there's going to be?

I think the Zolom corpse might be a good ending. You get to know Sephiroth a bit and see a bit of his handiwork. Ending on the cargo ship leaves a long stretch of random sidequests before the plot picks back up. End of Midgar, you have to launch into the backstory at the start, and then drop it for a long time.

It's like 'we've seen how dangerous Sephiroth is in flashback, but is he the same now?'

'giant impaled snake', ideally after a hard bossfight with another one, says yes.

Rufus says he's different from his father, but the first thing he does is throw a massive parade to show how great he is in a continuation of Dad's bread and circuses approach.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
Again, all of this depends on how much they choose to expand and change, as well as how they focus and frame the story. They are indeed delving deeper into AVALANCHE, so if they do reframe the first chapter on them, it would make sense to end with our heroes leaving Midgar. Maybe even walking off into the sunset.
 

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Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.
It's clear that Shinra is the culprit. Barret keeps referencing them. So it's very clear from the start that Shinra is bad and has to pay for sucking Mako out of the planet. And what you're criticizing can be easily solved by a little more explanation. And as I illustrated before, Avalanche's motivation for what they are doing keeps shifting because circumstances change and call for different actions. If Avalanche kept ignoring everything around them and kept bombing reactors until all were gone, would you be happy? That would make for a very bad story. There would be no growth, no change, no evolution and Avalanche would probably meet their end halfway through. They need to adapt to what's happening around them and to them. Also, while bombing all reactors would stop Shinra from sucking Mako out of the planet for a while, everyone else in Midgar, especially the citizens would suffer. And I believe that even Barret would see that eventually, if they kept playing that bombing game. Heck, the first reactor bombing already caused several civilian deaths.

My point is that leaving Midgar is not the objectively perfect end point for Part 1 it's currently presented as. It neither the first nor the last tme AVALANCHE adjusts it's active mission and it's not the end of them fighting Shinra. It has it's pros and cons as an end point. Maybe it's favourable to Junon but moving Jenova by no means addresses it's substantial cons.
Moving Jenova was by no means meant to address any cons to ending part 1 at Midgar. The point was to present another possibility, a "what if" if you will, in the case that referenced leak was legit.

I see what you're saying. However, taking all pros and cons into consideration while putting the most weight on the story (which is important for a story driven game that is supposed to feel self-contained and its own experience), Midgar wins out. the gameplay structure fits for a full game experience and the transition from the whole Midgar arc to the Sephiroth/Jenova/Reunion arc is (in my eyes) without any doubt the best choice for a cut in the whole FFVII story, only second to the summoning of Meteor.

To make a game's story feel complete and not chopped off, you need an appropriate resolution to what came before. There is no such point between the flashback and the summoning of Meteor. Not without heavy rewrites of the story and chain of events. Midgar wouldn't need nearly as much rewriting to feel like a single cohesive game.

The only point I might be able to get along with is Nibelheim, if they expand the crap out of that place and add some epic confrontation in the resident reactor (that first visit had way too little significance in the original game, given its relevance to the plot and Cloud's character arc).
However, then we'd probably be looking at 4 parts and I'm not sure if that's feasible.
(Context: I've had an interesting discussion on Discord last night about Nibelheim as a possible splitting point.)
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
As Vyzzuvazzadth says, the "Setup and exposition for conflicts, confrontation and resolution within an installment needs to happen at the beginning of a game", the bombing mission doesn't tell us "Shin-Ra Inc. is lead by a oppressive tyrant and needs to go down." It's "these Mako Reactors are killing the planet, and we will all die unless they are shut down." You leave Midgar with six reactors operating in full swing. Sephiroth is the bigger threat. But you don't know that yet, if the game ends before Kalm. New players end the game not knowing why they stopped trying to save the world that is in immediate peril. It's problematic in it's own right.


I actually replied to this the other day with pasted quotes from the game's script, but for some reason it got modded.

Anyway, what I wrote (or words to the effect) was that the part where Cloud tells Barret to get Aerith out of Shinra HQ and then says 'this is the real crisis for the Planet now' and 'I'll explain it later!'. That part - though hopefully and likely expanded in 7:R - surely addresses the point you raise here? It lets the player know quite clearly that more is to come, while also bringing the initial arc to it's resolution.

You're right though, as you point out in a subsequent post, that there are no great places to end the first part (I'd argue that losing Cloud at the North Crater/summoning Meteor is the perfect 'catastrophic' end point for the second part, however). It's really fascinating to see how they resolve this problem. Probably in a way that none of us has foreseen.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Approved your post that the mod system flagged. I had seen it the other day, but didn't realize it was in the moderation queue. Mods and admins can see those posts even if they're flagged, so they look like just any other post unless one happens to notice that they're missing a number in the top-right corner.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
Approved your post that the mod system flagged. I had seen it the other day, but didn't realize it was in the moderation queue. Mods and admins can see those posts even if they're flagged, so they look like just any other post unless one happens to notice that they're missing a number in the top-right corner.

No worries at all Twilight, thanks for filling me in.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Been thinking about this. Here's how I'd segment it.

Pt 1-Beginning to Zolom Corpse.
Pt 2- Mythril Mine to Nibelheim.
Pt 3- Nibelheim to end of disc 1
Pt 4- End of Disc 1 to North Cave.
Pt 5- Waking up in Junon to Rocket
Pt 6-City of Ancients to Midgar
Pt 7-North Cave to end.

7 Segments is appropriate, and all of these end on some Sephiroth related encounter, with enough plot and sidequests. Insert bossfights at Nibelheim and Zolom.
 

leadmyskeptic

Pro Adventurer
Your separations are logical and obviously well thought out.

BUT 7 SEGMENTS?!!

To use a Radiohead song title, "no no no no no no no no"
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
I’m sure people would be absolutely thrilled to pay 420 USD on one JRP adventure.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
If all of these were 30 to 40 hour games? I would.

Though to be clear, I don't believe there will be that many parts.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
If all of these were 30 to 40 hour games? I would.

Though to be clear, I don't believe there will be that many parts.

A lot of people complain that Part I Midgar will be stretching to little content too far, and that this won’t be giving people their money’s worth. I fail to see how you can make a whole 30-40 hour game of end of disc 1 to the Northern Crater, which is even less content ...
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
If they start the game with Cloud entering Midgar, there's a whole world of content they could fit into a Midgar-centric first chapter. There's so much material there. If they truly expand on AVALANCHE and how Cloud came to know them, this first game could indeed be entirely set there.

And expanding from that, there's a lot that could be done in almost every bit of the game. Final Fantasy VII has an incredibly rich lore.
 

pxp

Pro Adventurer
See I’m one of those who doesn’t mind Midgar Part 1, but the example I gave (and 7 parts in general) is way too far. That truly would constitute the Peter Jacksonisation of FF7 a la The Hobbit.
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Telltale regularly does 5 Episodes, it doesn't seem so unfeasable to me. Resident Evil Revelations 2 had 4.

Could be some kind of Season Pass system, doesn't have to be the Metal Gear V model.

Expand Shinra's role in sealing off the town into a larger segment, throw in some new subquests.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
Well, hopefully they aren't doing episodes. They could split the narrative up, but if they do it in 2 or 3 hour chunks it will likely severely hamper the overall experience.
 
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