Fancy trying to explain these?

[S and G]

These are just a few points that have been pointed out in the past or have been noticed by myself while nitpicking through the compilation.

Some are things that were perhaps overlooked by SE for the FFVII continuum, while others are observations, but nevertheless have caused a few heads to be scratched.

Check them out and see if you can think of a reasonable explanation. I have a few, but they are still amusing/interesting anyway. And if you have any of your own, do feel free to add.

1) If the magic of Materia is the crystalised knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra that allows its user to use such power by interacting with the Planet as they did...what the hell are summons?

2) Where was Shinra HQ before the Plate was built?

3) Why is Cid Highwind's birthplace cited as Rocket Town when the FMV in FFVII of the failed rocket launch clearly shows the town being built following the incident? It's even in the fucking name!

4) What are the chances that the Metamorphose experiment that was conducted upon Azul to allow him to transform into Arch Azul was the same conducted on Vincent many years before that transformed him into the Galian Beast, etc?

5) Where did the Bugah Tribe gain their knowledge of the Ancients?

6) Given that construction of the Science Dept in the Shinra Building is unlikely to have been completed in 1985 when Aerith and Ifalna were captured by Hojo, which research facility did he take them to?

7) How is that Weiss was able to obtain/develop the abilities of his fellow Tsviets, including SND?

8) After the defeat of Wutai to end the Great War, why did Shinra not build a Mako Reactor there - the cause of the War in the first place?

9) The Legendary Turk is feared for a horrific incident that occurred during the Wutai War in 1995. Elmyra's husband died in the War in 1995. Coincidence?

10) If Usher was a Deepground SOLDIER that existed prior to Shelke's arrival in Deepground, how did she know about him?

11) How did Shinra learn of Shelke's abilities?

12) What happened to the real Masamune after Sephiroth was thrown into the Mako pit at Nibelheim?

13) What is so important about Sector8 that requires the supervision of the Turks?

14) Before Zack's mission to Banora, Lazard's screen shows the images of two Turks MIA which are later discovered to have been killed by Genesis. Could have this been a contributing factor for the hiring of the BC Turks?

15) In episode 6 of Before Crisis, there is a flower girl who talks about the lighting of the tree in a Sector8 park which has been an annual event for 20 years. However, at this point the year is 2001, which means tradition started in 1981 – only 5 years after construction began on the Plate. Is this a continuity error, or was part of Sector8 actually completed within that short period of time?

16) When the player Turk stumbles upon Aerith in BC, they have no idea who she is. Does this mean that even in the department, it is only the senior Turks who are aware of her existence?

17) In episode 11 of BC, AVALANCHE’s plan to kidnap Aerith is called Operation Laura. The plan itself is to use Aerith to find the Promised Land so that they may protect it from the Shinra. However, given Fuhito studied under the Bugah elders, does the name Laura refer to perhaps a prophet from ancient times?

18) During a conversation at the end of episode 11 in BC, Rufus complains that the effort his father is putting into retrieving Aerith far outweighs any possible positive outcome. This suggests that he does not show any interest in harnessing the powers of the Ancients, or in the Neo-Midgar project. It also suggests why he doesn’t show much challenge to Aerith’s escape from the Shinra Building during FF7.

19) Knives (F) is the only Turk who wears a skirt. We know that she was brought up in Corel, a town with strong links to its cultural history, which suggests that tradition is a large part of her character. Perhaps it is the tradition of her culture that causes her to wear a skirt although her peers do not.

20) How did Hojo come to know of the Jenova Reunion theory?

21) In Case of Denzel, there is no mention of Ruvie's husband/Reeve's father. Isn't this a bit odd given that he appeared with his wife in a scene at the HoneyBee Inn about a week before during FFVII?

22) The ultimania says that Sector4 was the last to be built in Midgar, even though any model (in-game or otherwise) shows that Sector6 is the one not fully developed.

23) Just a random observation, but in FFVII Hojo wears blue trousers and a brown tie, whereas in every other title he has a blue tie and brown trousers.

24) How was Kalm rebuilt and repopulated after it was bombed? Did anyone notice any funny accents there as was the case in Nibelheim?

25) How does Verdot know about the Jade WEAPON?

26) After Sephiroth's death, Rufus declares that the only ones strong enough to get in his way are the Turks. What the hell happened to SOLDIER?

27) Due to a stalemate during the War, a ceasefire occurred and negotiations took place between Shinra and Wutai prior to the breakdown that led to Genesis' fateful mission in Wutai. But, what was the Legendary Turk doing there during the negotiations? Continuity breakdown or Shinra not playing by the rules?

28) Hojo knew of Genesis' degradation before it became visible. Is this due to Hollander's research on his training room injury or from the failed G-Cell experiments that took place in DG?

29) In the latter stages of Before Crisis, why is Scarlet controlling the Shinra Army and not Heidegger?

30) Another random observation: the original FFVII shows kanji-style graffiti around the Slums. This could be from the repeated Wutai remnant invasions during Crisis Core.

31) In FFVII when Cloud and Vincent first meet, Cloud tells vincent that he is ex-SOLDIER to which he replies that he is also formerly affiliated with Shinra. But, how does Vincent know about SOLDIER if it wasn't established until years after Sephiroth was born and he was locked in the coffin?


Any thoughts?

 

[Makoeyes987]

*cracks knuckles* Okay, let's get to it.

1) If the magic of Materia is the crystalised knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra that allows its user to use such power by interacting with the Planet as they did...what the hell are summons?

Summons are ethereal monsters from the planet called forth by the knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra. It's like invoking magic, except it's actually calling upon a monster/being from the planet itself to help you fight. It's not really that different than calling forth magic. Summons are apparently a type of monster that exists spiritually and can retain form via materia and summoning.

2) Where was Shinra HQ before the late was built?

Before it was moved to Midgar? Good question. Probably another city like....Junon.

3) Why is Cid Highwind's birthplace cited as Rocket Town when the FMV in FFVII of the failed rocket launch clearly shows the town being built following the incident? It's even in the fucking name!

Umm..the game never says that Rocket Town was built after the first rocket launch. It existed before the Shinra 26 was moved and launched there. Maybe it had another name before, but Rocket Town was there, before the "rocket" was placed there.

4) What are the chances that the Metamorphose experiment that was conducted upon Azul to allow him to transform into Arch Azul was the same conducted on Vincent many years before that transformed him into the Galian Beast, etc?

I'd say its pretty likely. I do believe it was stated somewhere in the Multiplayer mode or another profile for Azul, that he was given his power from a "metamorphose" experiment as well.

5) Where did the Bugah Tribe gain their knowledge of the Ancients?

Where does it say the Bugah tribe knew of the Cetra? I mean, it's not inconceivable that they would, seeing as they've been around for many, many years, and their forefathers may have encountered them, but I don't remember FFVII referencing any connections between the two.

6) Given that construction of the Science Dept in the Shinra Building is unlikely to have been completed in 1985 when Aerith and Ifalna were captured by Hojo, which research facility did he take them to?

Why is it unlikely for it to have been finished? The Shinra Building proper was fully completed in 1976. Even if the research department wasn't finished back then, that's still 9 years before Aerith and Ifalna's capture. No reason to doubt its completion then.

7) How is that Weiss was able to obtain/develop the abilities of his fellow Tsviets, including SND?

That's a good question. But considering he's the color "white" and white is the combination of all the spectral colors, it makes a sort of thematic sense.

8) After the defeat of Wutai to end the Great War, why did Shinra not build a Mako Reactor there - which was the cause of the War in the first place?

Maybe they found out it wasn't cost effective to even build one there anymore. In the end, it became about power and showing that Shinra was the ruling force of the planet.

9) The Legendary Turk is feared for a horrific incident that occurred during the Wutai War in 1995. Elmyra's husband died in the War in 1995. Coincidence?

I...really doubt they thought that far about it. I think that's just incidental. I think we would've heard about that in Before Crisis by now, wouldn't you?

10) If Usher was a Deepground SOLDIER that existed prior to Shelke's arrival in Deepground, how did she know about him?

She could've looked him up. Or maybe he's a complete and utter fabrication based on just a few scant, kernels of truth.

11) How did Shinra learn of Shelke's abilities?

How do the Turks learn about the abilities of any prospective SOLDIER candidates. They spy.

12) What happened to the real Masamune after Sephiroth was thrown into the Mako pit at Nibelheim?

Who knows. That's probably not that important though, seeing as how he now can apparently materialize it out of nowhere.

13) What is so important about Sector8 that requires the supervision of the Turks?

Sector 8 is the sector that allows legitimate entrance to the Shinra Building.

14) Before Zack's mission to Banora, Lazard's screen shows the images of two Turks MIA which are later discovered to have been killed by Genesis. Could have this been a contributing factor for the hiring of the BC Turks?

We don't know for sure if they're turks at all. Also, Lazard would have no jurisdiction to send Turks to Banora, seeing how that's Verdot's job.

15) In episode 6 of Before Crisis, there is a flower girl who talks about the lighting of the tree in a Sector8 park which has been an annual event for 20 years. However, at this point the year is 2001, which means tradition started in 1981 – only 5 years after construction began on the Plate. Is this a continuity error, or was part of Sector8 actually completed within that short period of time?

It's possible it was partially completed but it sounds more like a continuity error to me.

16) When the player Turk stumbles upon Aerith in BC, they have no idea who she is. Does this mean that even in the Turks, it is only the senior Turks who are aware of her existence?

More than likely. They do operate on a "need to know" basis after all.

17) In episode 11 of BC, AVALANCHE’s plan to kidnap Aerith is called Operation Laura. The plan itself is to use Aerith to find the Promised Land so that they may protect it from the Shinra. However, given Fuhito studied under the Bugah elders, does the name Laura refer to perhaps a prophet from ancient times?

...I have no clue. It could be a made up name for all we know.

18) During a conversation at the end of episode 11 in BC, he complains that the effort his father is putting into retrieving Aerith far outweighs any possible positive outcome. This suggests that he does not show any interest in harnessing the powers of the Ancients, or in the Neo-Midgar project. It also suggests why he doesn’t show much challenge to Aerith’s escape from the Shinra Building during FF7.

Are you talking about Rufus? Because if so, that makes sense. At that time, he was just a spoiled bastard. Well...he was a spoiled bastard in FFVII too, but moreso in BC. He only wanted money and more money. He had very little vision.

19) Knives (F) is the only Turk who wears a skirt. We know that she was brought up in Corel, a town with strong links to its cultural history, which suggests that tradition is a large part of her character. Perhaps it is the tradition of her culture that causes her to wear a skirt although her peers do not.

....Or maybe she just likes skirts.

20) How did Hojo come to know of the Jenova Reunion theory?

All of the experiments with the Jenova specimen of course. When he stole all of Gast's research and created the SOLDIER procedure of using Jenova's cells, he naturally would have to have known all the ins and outs of Jenova.

21) In Case of Denzel, there is no mention of Ruvie's husband/Reeve's father. Isn't this a bit odd given that he appeared with his wife in a scene at the HoneyBee Inn about a week before during FFVII?

He could've just died.

22) The ultimania says that Sector4 was the last to be built in Midgar, even though any model (in-game or otherwise) shows that Sector6 is the one not fully developed.

That makes sense. Sector 4 was probably the last one to be fully built and completed while Sector 6 was left incomplete.

23) Just a random observation, but in FFVII Hojo wears blue trousers and a brown tie, whereas in every other title he has a blue tie and brown trousers.

I...did not know that.

24) How was Kalm rebuilt and repopulated after it was bombed?

How is any town repopulated after a disaster or attack? People come back and rebuild.

25) How does Verdot know about the Jade WEAPON?

The knowledge of WEAPON isn't that esoteric. Hojo knows about it, certain civilians and people know about it as shown in CC, Verdot may have learned about it as well through another source.

26) After Sephiroth's death, Rufus declares that the only ones strong enough to get in his way are the Turks. What the hell happened to SOLDIER?

...Why would SOLDIER stand in his way, when they'd be under his control via Heidegger? The Turks are the only ones who are shown to be the ones who would go against orders and stuff.

27) Due to a stalemate during the War, a ceasefire occurred and negotiations took place between Shinra and Wutai prior to the breakdown that led to Genesis' fateful mission in Wutai. But, what was the Legendary Turk doing there during the negotiations? Continuity breakdown or Shinra not playing by the rules?

When was the ceasefire? Do we know for certain that the Legend's war exploits happened during that time?

28) Hojo knew of Genesis' degradation before it became visible. Is this due to Hollander's research on his training room injury or from the failed G-Cell experiments that took place in DG?

The Jenova Project (and all its extents) never happened in Deep Ground, and Hojo would have nothing to do with those experiments. Hojo knew of Hollander's research because he was also part of the Jenova Project, just like he was, and when he won out and became head of the Science Department, naturally he'd be privy to all its research and data.

29) In the latter stages of Before Crisis, why is Scarlet controlling the Shinra Army and not Heidegger?

I don't know where it says she's solely in control. If anything, they work together, since she's in charge of all Shinra weaponry and arsenal, and we see them in FFVII both giving orders to troops during the game. They even work the Proud Clod together.

30) Another random observation: the original FFVII shows kanji-style graffiti around the Slums. This could be from the repeated Wutai remnant invasions during Crisis Core.

Perhaps, but I don't think the Wutai people are the only people who speak Japanese. I think Japanese would be the de-facto language of everyone since its a Japanese game.

31) In FFVII when Cloud and Vincent first meet, Cloud tells vincent that he is ex-SOLDIER to which he replies that he is also formerly affiliated with Shinra. But, how does Vincent know about SOLDIER if it wasn't established until years after Sephiroth was born and he was locked in the coffin?

Sephiroth was the first SOLDIER to exist in its current form as seen in FFVII, but as we know in DC and CC, a form of SOLDIER existed in the past. There was always a para-military under the control of Shinra. It was only when Sephiroth was created that they became the superpowered mako freaks we know now.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't know that Knives wore a skirt! Thanks, Mo.
I cannot begin to answer any of your questions, except maybe for the one about the kanji. I always assumed that SE used a mix of romaji and kanji/other Japanese characters for all their background lettering, so that it would be equally comprehensible to all their markets.

 

[S and G]

Thanks for taking the time there, Mako. I'm not looking for exact answers here. Really just sharing some observations that can be discussed.

S and G wrote:

1) If the magic of Materia is the crystalised knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra that allows its user to use such power by interacting with the Planet as they did...what the hell are summons?
Summons are ethereal monsters from the planet called forth by the knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra. It's like invoking magic, except it's actually calling upon a monster/being from the planet itself to help you fight. It's not really that different than calling forth magic. Summons are apparently a type of monster that exists spiritually and can retain form via materia and summoning.

Fair enough

2) Where was Shinra HQ before the late was built?
Before it was moved to Midgar? Good question. Probably another city like....Junon.

Junon as a city was built during the War. Prior to that it was just the coastal village where Priscilla's grandparents lived. My guess would be that it was in old Midgar

3) Why is Cid Highwind's birthplace cited as Rocket Town when the FMV in FFVII of the failed rocket launch clearly shows the town being built following the incident? It's even in the fucking name!
Umm..the game never says that Rocket Town was built after the first rocket launch. It existed before the Shinra 26 was moved and launched there. Maybe it had another name before, but Rocket Town was there, before the "rocket" was placed there.

The FMV from the original game shows the landscape surrounding the rocket to be just trees, but it then fades into current-day times to show the town had been built around it. Rocket existed first according to that FMV. Otherwise your answer makes sense.

4) What are the chances that the Metamorphose experiment that was conducted upon Azul to allow him to transform into Arch Azul was the same conducted on Vincent many years before that transformed him into the Galian Beast, etc?
I'd say its pretty likely. I do believe it was stated somewhere in the Multiplayer mode or another profile for Azul, that he was given his power from a "metamorphose" experiment as well.

That was my point. It is stated that Azul is the SOLE survivor of the metamorphose experiment.

5) Where did the Bugah Tribe gain their knowledge of the Ancients?
Where does it say the Bugah tribe knew of the Cetra? I mean, it's not inconceivable that they would, seeing as they've been around for many, many years, and their forefathers may have encountered them, but I don't remember FFVII referencing any connections between the two.

During FFVII if you speak with Elder Hargo at the Starlet Bar, he speaks to you about his knowledge on the Cetra. He also mentions that he used to discuss it with Gast when Gast visited Cosmo Canyon. That kinda answers the question I guess

6) Given that construction of the Science Dept in the Shinra Building is unlikely to have been completed in 1985 when Aerith and Ifalna were captured by Hojo, which research facility did he take them to?
Why is it unlikely for it to have been finished? The Shinra Building proper was fully completed in 1976. Even if the research department wasn't finished back then, that's still 9 years before Aerith and Ifalna's capture. No reason to doubt its completion then.

Timeline says construction STARTED in 1976 but Shinra HQ wasn't actually completed until 2007. It says that Shinra worked out of it for years while it was still under construction (hence the CC images), but would be weird if it had been for that long.

9) The Legendary Turk is feared for a horrific incident that occurred during the Wutai War in 1995. Elmyra's husband died in the War in 1995. Coincidence?
I...really doubt they thought that far about it. I think that's just incidental. I think we would've heard about that in Before Crisis by now, wouldn't you?

I'm not reading into it, just pointing it out. It would be ridiculous to consider it canon.

10) If Usher was a Deepground SOLDIER that existed prior to Shelke's arrival in Deepground, how did she know about him?
She could've looked him up. Or maybe he's a complete and utter fabrication based on just a few scant, kernels of truth.

I guess there must've been some computer records on the DG system somewhere she could have hacked using SND

14) Before Zack's mission to Banora, Lazard's screen shows the images of two Turks MIA which are later discovered to have been killed by Genesis. Could have this been a contributing factor for the hiring of the BC Turks?
We don't know for sure if they're turks at all. Also, Lazard would have no jurisdiction to send Turks to Banora, seeing how that's Verdot's job.

If you watch the cutscene again in Lazard's office, it would be silly not to assume they were Turks given the circumstances. I didn't mean Lazard sent the Turks, I just meant he had records of them MIA on his screen. They would have gone just the same as Tseng had. The primary reason the BC Turks were taken on board was because Verdot feared an anti-Shinra backlash after the defeat of Wutai. I thought it was just a neat touch that CC also pointed out that two Turks had been killed by Genesis causing them a shortage in personnel.

Are you talking about Rufus? Because if so, that makes sense. At that time, he was just a spoiled bastard. Well...he was a spoiled bastard in FFVII too, but moreso in BC. He only wanted money and more money. He had very little vision.

Sorry, yeah I meant Rufus. I'll go edit that.

21) In Case of Denzel, there is no mention of Ruvie's husband/Reeve's father. Isn't this a bit odd given that he appeared with his wife in a scene at the HoneyBee Inn about a week before during FFVII?
He could've just died.

This one is obviously just an oversight on SE's part. But, for argument's sake, not a single mention either by Ruvie in CoD or Reeve in FF7 is a tad harsh. Unless he had a prostitution-fueled heart attack at the HoneyBee and Ruvie was too embarrassed to bring it up again.

24) How was Kalm rebuilt and repopulated after it was bombed?
How is any town repopulated after a disaster or attack? People come back and rebuild.

I meant with relation to the secretive methods used at Nibelheim. Maybe Shinra just blamed a terrorist group and the people just got on with their lives the same way people did after AVALANCHE bombed the reactors in FFVII.

27) Due to a stalemate during the War, a ceasefire occurred and negotiations took place between Shinra and Wutai prior to the breakdown that led to Genesis' fateful mission in Wutai. But, what was the Legendary Turk doing there during the negotiations? Continuity breakdown or Shinra not playing by the rules?
When was the ceasefire? Do we know for certain that the Legend's war exploits happened during that time?

I can't remember off the top of my head where it says it (I'm inclined to say Lazard mentions failed negotiations in CC and peaceful negotiations are also mentioned in the Legend episode), but there was definitely a ceasefire for more than two years somewhere between 1995 and 2000. I'll look into that one if I remember. And from my understanding it did take place during the ceasefire, but that might not be correct.

28) Hojo knew of Genesis' degradation before it became visible. Is this due to Hollander's research on his training room injury or from the failed G-Cell experiments that took place in DG?
The Jenova Project (and all its extents) never happened in Deep Ground, and Hojo would have nothing to do with those experiments. Hojo knew of Hollander's research because he was also part of the Jenova Project, just like he was, and when he won out and became head of the Science Department, naturally he'd be privy to all its research and data.

Experiments concerning G-Cells did take place in DG, but weren't really part of the Jenova Project (ie different from G, A and S). This was what resulted in the hundreds of children being born through experimentation in DG but dying of degradation during infancy. But, surely to Christ Hojo knew what was going on in DG even if he wasn't there personally. It's obvious from DC that he knew of its existence and he's clearly considered Shinra's top scientist/morally corrupt fuckhead.

29) In the latter stages of Before Crisis, why is Scarlet controlling the Shinra Army and not Heidegger?
I don't know where it says she's solely in control. If anything, they work together, since she's in charge of all Shinra weaponry and arsenal, and we see them in FFVII both giving orders to troops during the game. They even work the Proud Clod together.

True. It doesn't necessarily say Heidegger is out of the picture, but there are repeated discussions between Scarlet and Pres Shinra where he orders her to mobilize the Army against the Turks. It's just odd that he gives Scarlet such tasks and doesn't include Heidegger. Although, having said that, Heidegger didn't exactly prove himself useful at any time.

30) Another random observation: the original FFVII shows kanji-style graffiti around the Slums. This could be from the repeated Wutai remnant invasions during Crisis Core.
Perhaps, but I don't think the Wutai people are the only people who speak Japanese. I think Japanese would be the de-facto language of everyone since its a Japanese game.

The original game is obviously just Japanese graffiti. What I meant is that those of us using our imagination can now relate it to something else.

31) In FFVII when Cloud and Vincent first meet, Cloud tells vincent that he is ex-SOLDIER to which he replies that he is also formerly affiliated with Shinra. But, how does Vincent know about SOLDIER if it wasn't established until years after Sephiroth was born and he was locked in the coffin?
Sephiroth was the first SOLDIER to exist in its current form as seen in FFVII, but as we know in DC and CC, a form of SOLDIER existed in the past. There was always a para-military under the control of Shinra. It was only when Sephiroth was created that they became the superpowered mako freaks we know now.

Where does it mention that a form of SOLDIER existed in the past? My understanding is that SOLDIER was formed based upon the effects Jenova and Mako had on the body, which were only really discovered after Sephiroth's birth. In order for Vincent to know about it, SOLDIER must have existed prior to Sephiroth's birth, but I've never heard that before.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Junon as a city was built during the War. Prior to that it was just the coastal village where Priscilla's grandparents lived. My guess would be that it was in old Midgar

Ahh, that's right. I forgot. But yeah, I guess Old Midgar, works.

The FMV from the original game shows the landscape surrounding the rocket to be just trees, but it then fades into current-day times to show the town had been built around it. Rocket existed first according to that FMV. Otherwise your answer makes sense.

I think that's just the camera angle. Remember, the rocket was off from the town a good bit. Not directly near it, or in the center of it. It's possible the angle they showed the rocket was just where most of the trees were.

That was my point. It is stated that Azul is the SOLE survivor of the metamorphose experiment.

Ahh, okay.

During FFVII if you speak with Elder Hargo at the Starlet Bar, he speaks to you about his knowledge on the Cetra. He also mentions that he used to discuss it with Gast when Gast visited Cosmo Canyon. That kinda answers the question I guess

Yeah, don't forget Bugenhagen was a Shinra Researcher too.

Timeline says construction STARTED in 1976 but Shinra HQ wasn't actually completed until 2007. It says that Shinra worked out of it for years while it was still under construction (hence the CC images), but would be weird if it had been for that long.

Actually, it says "The city of Midgar is constructed." There was a substantial enough portion of Midgar constructed to allow inhabitation. Technically Midgar was never finished since Sector 6 was never completed and abandoned due to the whole Neo-Midgar project

I guess there must've been some computer records on the DG system somewhere she could have hacked using SND

True, or could be gossip amongst soldiers.

If you watch the cutscene again in Lazard's office, it would be silly not to assume they were Turks given the circumstances. I didn't mean Lazard sent the Turks, I just meant he had records of them MIA on his screen. They would have gone just the same as Tseng had. The primary reason the BC Turks were taken on board was because Verdot feared an anti-Shinra backlash after the defeat of Wutai. I thought it was just a neat touch that CC also pointed out that two Turks had been killed by Genesis causing them a shortage in personnel.

Lazard specifically calls them "his men" or something, insinuating he had authority over them, which makes me dubious of them being Turks. Since he has no authority over them. They could be other operatives or personnel, but for them to be turks and called Lazard's men would seem contradictory.

This one is obviously just an oversight on SE's part. But, for argument's sake, not a single mention either by Ruvie in CoD or Reeve in FF7 is a tad harsh. Unless he had a prostitution-fueled heart attack at the HoneyBee and Ruvie was too embarrassed to bring it up again.

...I wouldn't be surprised

I meant with relation to the secretive methods used at Nibelheim. Maybe Shinra just blamed a terrorist group and the people just got on with their lives the same way people did after AVALANCHE bombed the reactors in FFVII.

More than likely, that's what they did. Didn't BC even state that?

I can't remember off the top of my head where it says it (I'm inclined to say Lazard mentions failed negotiations in CC and peaceful negotiations are also mentioned in the Legend episode), but there was definitely a ceasefire for more than two years somewhere between 1995 and 2000. I'll look into that one if I remember. And from my understanding it did take place during the ceasefire, but that might not be correct.

Oh really? I thought the whole spin of "peaceful negotiations" were just Shinra lies they were telling the people and the grunts, so they wouldn't feel like it was an unjust war. Because I can't see Shinra or Wutai negotiating anything. It's just Shinra coming to Wutai saying "we want your land" and Wutai saying "no!"

Experiments concerning G-Cells did take place in DG, but weren't really part of the Jenova Project (ie different from G, A and S). This was what resulted in the hundreds of children being born through experimentation in DG but dying of degradation during infancy. But, surely to Christ Hojo knew what was going on in DG even if he wasn't there personally. It's obvious from DC that he knew of its existence and he's clearly considered Shinra's top scientist/morally corrupt fuckhead.

Oh you mean, Genesis's genes. I gotcha. Yeah, that took place in DG. But I don't remember anywhere in DC saying children died of degeneration during infancy in Deepground. That sounds like CC, where the failed subjects of Project G, died and never survived. The only survivors being Angeal and Genesis. That was thanks to Hollander and his experiments conducted.

And I think Hojo knew of its existence but why would he have anything to do with their research? Especially since DG was sealed off.

True. It doesn't necessarily say Heidegger is out of the picture, but there are repeated discussions between Scarlet and Pres Shinra where he orders her to mobilize the Army against the Turks. It's just odd that he gives Scarlet such tasks and doesn't include Heidegger. Although, having said that, Heidegger didn't exactly prove himself useful at any time.

I remember him giving a few orders to Heidegger, but yeah...remember that Heidegger is considered not too bright amongst the executives. He's not really...that respected. Scarlet however is the weaponry genius and responsible one.

Where does it mention that a form of SOLDIER existed in the past? My understanding is that SOLDIER was formed based upon the effects Jenova and Mako had on the body, which were only really discovered after Sephiroth's birth. In order for Vincent to know about it, SOLDIER must have existed prior to Sephiroth's birth, but I've never heard that before.

Yeah, "SOLDIER" was, but soldiers existed for Shinra before. That's why Deepground was created. For wounded Shinra soldiers. That's stated in DC, on the Sierra. As a weapons manufacturing company, its not hard to imagine Shinra having a private security force/paramilitary for their own uses as well.

 

[S and G]

I think that's just the camera angle. Remember, the rocket was off from the town a good bit. Not directly near it, or in the center of it. It's possible the angle they showed the rocket was just where most of the trees were.

I watched it again recently and it's actually the same image where the passage of time is shown and the houses appear on the same landscape. It's something I have never understood since I first had the game.

Actually, it says "The city of Midgar is constructed." There was a substantial enough portion of Midgar constructed to allow inhabitation. Technically Midgar was never finished since Sector 6 was never completed and abandoned due to the whole Neo-Midgar project

You sure? I'd have to read it again, but I'm sure the CC timeline specifically says construction of Plate and HQ completed in 2007. We'd have to check.

Lazard specifically calls them "his men" or something, insinuating he had authority over them, which makes me dubious of them being Turks. Since he has no authority over them. They could be other operatives or personnel, but for them to be turks and called Lazard's men would seem contradictory.

Again, watched it recently. Maybe I was looking for it so didn't consider otherwise, but why would Lazard send SOLDIERs dressed in black Turk-like uniforms? Anyway, we seem to have wandered somewhat from the point here. It makes not a jot of difference anyway. Tseng also says 'our people', so it could work either way.

More than likely, that's what they did. Didn't BC even state that?

Nope. Just said Kalm was rebuilt. No how or when.

Yeah, "SOLDIER" was, but soldiers existed for Shinra before. That's why Deepground was created. For wounded Shinra soldiers. That's stated in DC, on the Sierra. As a weapons manufacturing company, its not hard to imagine Shinra having a private security force/paramilitary for their own uses as well.

My point is that Cloud says ex-SOLDIER, not ex-soldier. I knew there was some form of military that existed prior to the Jenova Project, but this is a gaping flaw in continuity. However, as seen in BC, Cloud is not the first person to wake Vincent. It is not unfathomable then that someone has woke him in the past. Even if it was just to tell him about the existence SOLDIER so that sometime later, he could bring it up in conversation with Cloud

 

[Username]

12) What happened to the real Masamune after Sephiroth was thrown into the Mako pit at Nibelheim?

It was picked up by someone mysterious.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I watched it again recently and it's actually the same image where the passage of time is shown and the houses appear on the same landscape. It's something I have never understood since I first had the game.

Well that's odd. Maybe Rocket Town was just smaller at the time, and grew since the launch of the rocket?

You sure? I'd have to read it again, but I'm sure the CC timeline specifically says construction of Plate and HQ completed in 2007. We'd have to check.

LOL, well the timline's hosted here, and that's what it says so.. I'm not saying that the plate and stuff wasn't complete/near completed in 2007, but I'm saying that they say that the city of Midgar was stated as "constructed" in 1976, and clearly, that was enough city for Shinra to decide to move Midgar and have people inhabiting it. It wasn't done but it was complete enough.

Kinda like how the Death Star in Episode 6 of Star Wars wasn't "complete" but was complete "enough" to have people inhabit it, and use it as a weapon.

Again, watched it recently. Maybe I was looking for it so didn't consider otherwise, but why would Lazard send SOLDIERs dressed in black Turk-like uniforms? Anyway, we seem to have wandered somewhat from the point here. It makes not a jot of difference anyway. Tseng also says 'our people', so it could work either way.

Well it's a debated portion of CC there. Some people think they're turks while others don't. I'm part of the camp that doesn't obviously XD It really doesn't make a difference but its just one of those details that people are conflicted on.

My point is that Cloud says ex-SOLDIER, not ex-soldier. I knew there was some form of military that existed prior to the Jenova Project, but this is a gaping flaw in continuity. However, as seen in BC, Cloud is not the first person to wake Vincent. It is not unfathomable then that someone has woke him in the past. Even if it was just to tell him about the existence SOLDIER so that sometime later, he could bring it up in conversation with Cloud

Perhaps Vincent just heard Cloud say he was an "ex-soldier" and assumed that he meant it was for Shinra, since...Shinra was the only real power at the time that had any real military.

When speaking you wouldn't really hear any difference between SOLDIER or soldier. It's all context. And I suppose someone may have woke him up in the past or something. That makes sense too.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Perhaps Vincent just heard Cloud say he was an "ex-soldier" and assumed that he meant it was for Shinra, since...Shinra was the only real power at the time that had any real military.

Even thirty years ago? We don't know that for sure, since at the time, Shinra was just coming out of being a shit dick weapons manufacturer. They had to be making weapons for someone.

Again, watched it recently. Maybe I was looking for it so didn't consider otherwise, but why would Lazard send SOLDIERs dressed in black Turk-like uniforms? Anyway, we seem to have wandered somewhat from the point here. It makes not a jot of difference anyway. Tseng also says 'our people', so it could work either way.

The biggest thing that people forget is that Turks aren't the only dudes who wear suits.

After the defeat of Wutai to end the Great War, why did Shinra not build a Mako Reactor there - the cause of the War in the first place?

That would have been hilariously counterproductive, considering that Wutai wasn't fully demilitarized for years, and even considering, they would have just kept sabotaging it over and over. Besides, you can build a reactor somewhere, but you can't make the populace use it.

But yeah, I guess Old Midgar, works.

what the hell is old midgar

3) Why is Cid Highwind's birthplace cited as Rocket Town when the FMV in FFVII of the failed rocket launch clearly shows the town being built following the incident? It's even in the fucking name!
Umm..the game never says that Rocket Town was built after the first rocket launch. It existed before the Shinra 26 was moved and launched there. Maybe it had another name before, but Rocket Town was there, before the "rocket" was placed there.

A minor inconsistency, I guess.

30) Another random observation: the original FFVII shows kanji-style graffiti around the Slums. This could be from the repeated Wutai remnant invasions during Crisis Core.

I always considered FF7 to be somewhat bilingual with English being the common language. So sure, this could be the case.

 

[Strangelove]

Someone talked about the language in FFVII, but I can't remember who it was now or what they said

When speaking you wouldn't really hear any difference between SOLDIER or soldier.

You would in the original Japanese There's not really any mistaking the Japanese term for SOLDIER as the regular word for a soldier/the one used for what Cloud actually was, since they simply used the English pronunciation for the name of the organization and not the native Japanese word like with other uses (Shinra soldier, etc.).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Someone talked about the language in FFVII, but I can't remember who it was now or what they said


You would in the original Japanese There's not really any mistaking the Japanese term for SOLDIER as the regular word for a soldier/the one used for what Cloud actually was, since they simply used the English pronunciation for the name of the organization and not the native Japanese word like with other uses (Shinra soldier, etc.).

Oh....well nevermind

That would have been hilariously counterproductive, considering that Wutai wasn't fully demilitarized for years, and even considering, they would have just kept sabotaging it over and over. Besides, you can build a reactor somewhere, but you can't make the populace use it.

That's a damn good point. Thanks for bringing that out.

what the hell is old midgar

"Old Midgar" was the town/city that was Midgar before it became the rotten pizza we all know and love.

 

[Tennyo]

Midgar was actually eight different cities/villages that formed an alliance, if my memory serves me. Hence why there are eight sectors.

 

[ForceStealer]

3) Why is Cid Highwind's birthplace cited as Rocket Town when the FMV in FFVII of the failed rocket launch clearly shows the town being built following the incident? It's even in the fucking name!

I HATE this one, I have from the moment I saw it. I don't know why, but it just strikes me as the laziest retcon ever.
And no, Mako, the town clearly grows around it, probably from the engineers (and pilot) that suddenly had to stay there for an extended period expecting a delayed launch.

And when was Kalm bombed? You mean in Dirge of Cerberus? If so, how do you know it repopulated - but I take it you don't.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The NPCs of FFVII talk about Rocket Town before the Shinra 26, so it's not a retcon. I dunno why the CG movie shows that but...the game clearly references the town before the rocket launch, and how the Shinra space program revitalized the town, and then when they abandoned it, the town kinda dried up.

And the Kalm bombing was in Before Crisis. Its how Verdot ended up losing his daughter.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The NPCs of FFVII talk about Rocket Town before the Shinra 26, so it's not a retcon.

They do?

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh...stupid game we'll never get to play

...and are you sure? There's a good chance you're right and all but I don't remember NPCs talking about the town beforehand.

Though, if true, its even worse than we thought and the game retcons itself mere moments after the mention of the town

 

[Tennyo]

Yeah, perhaps the look and layout of the town has changed but Rocket Town itself has been there for a while.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's the old man in the Inn for example, and several others. They talk about the town and stuff in the past before the rocket.

 

[BloodyCloud]

31) In FFVII when Cloud and Vincent first meet, Cloud tells vincent that he is ex-SOLDIER to which he replies that he is also formerly affiliated with Shinra. But, how does Vincent know about SOLDIER if it wasn't established until years after Sephiroth was born and he was locked in the coffin?

To be realistic about it, I think Vincent wasn't actually asleep/unconscious/unaware all the time he was in the coffin for all those years. He must've heard SOMETHING about SOLIDER during that time. Maybe he just didn't care about what happened around him or to anyone else after Lucrecia left him and he became a "monster" so to speak.

OR

SOLDIER may have been in the beginning stages of it's organization when Vincent was still a Turk so the idea of an army for Shin-Ra was floating around for a while. Surely the Turks would've been informed about it.

Eh, this is my guess/speculation.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I really wish that SE would have (or maybe will) go more in depth with the beginnings of Shinra and the setting that they rose to power in. One problem with the way they presented it with the Compilation, there doesn't really seem much to compare Shinra against. They just seemed to be...always there, which we know isn't the case.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I really wish that SE would have (or maybe will) go more in depth with the beginnings of Shinra and the setting that they rose to power in. One problem with the way they presented it with the Compilation, there doesn't really seem much to compare Shinra against. They just seemed to be...always there, which we know isn't the case.

Maybe it is....

Maybe... everybody on Gaia were a bunch of barefoot, stupid, altruistic hippies that just lived a communal, positive exchange based society of good will and favors, and were happy and innocent to greed and monetary gain...

And suddenly these Al Bhed assholes landed on their spaceship, brought with them their crazy Spiran capitalism, and just started oppressing since the beginning of recorded time.

Maybe Shinra's always been around, shitting on everyone and exploiting people

 

[Tennyo]

Ah damn Mako, that's kind of depressing. lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know nowhere near as much as the rest of you, but here's a couple of observations:

Given that Cid's rocket was number 26, surely there had to be numbers 1-25, just like with the Apollo and Gemini programs. Rocket Town's been a rocket town for quite a while, is my guess. Maybe that's how Cid got into aviation in the first place. It would be like growing up near Cape Canaveral. The lack of housing is difficult to explain away. Maybe it's all one-story pre-fab, hidden by the trees?

Given that Shinra first got rich on its weapons, there must have been plenty of customers. If their world were a real world, I doubt it would have been any nicer a place before Shinra's rise to power than afterwards, human nature being what it is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lazard specifically calls them "his men" or something, insinuating he had authority over them, which makes me dubious of them being Turks. Since he has no authority over them. They could be other operatives or personnel, but for them to be turks and called Lazard's men would seem contradictory.

Not necessarily. Special Episode of Reno (Episode 27 of Before Crisis) said that Lazard is the one who assigned Cissnei to spy on Zack (thanks to S and G for providing us with summaries of the Special Episodes, by the way).

 

[S and G]

You would in the original Japanese There's not really any mistaking the Japanese term for SOLDIER as the regular word for a soldier/the one used for what Cloud actually was, since they simply used the English pronunciation for the name of the organization and not the native Japanese word like with other uses (Shinra soldier, etc.).

Thanks for that, Hito. As always, your input is appreciated.

Loveboat Bartender wrote:
That would have been hilariously counterproductive, considering that Wutai wasn't fully demilitarized for years, and even considering, they would have just kept sabotaging it over and over. Besides, you can build a reactor somewhere, but you can't make the populace use it.

That would pretty much explain the outcome then. Good thinking, Mog. I also agree with Mako that the longer the War went on, the more it became about Shinra showing them who was boss. They clearly didn't want a repeat of Vietnam.

There's the old man in the Inn for example, and several others. They talk about the town and stuff in the past before the rocket.

There is also a reference made by one of the Shinra Employees in CC about it. Can't remember off hand though. The whole point itself was that the FMV that Forcestealer provided fuck the whole thing up. Otherwise no-one would've had a problem in accepting Rocket Town had a past. I do wonder what it may have been called back then, though. Surely it wouldn't have been Rocket Town given that Space Development was years if not decades away.

To be realistic about it, I think Vincent wasn't actually asleep/unconscious/unaware all the time he was in the coffin for all those years. He must've heard SOMETHING about SOLIDER during that time. Maybe he just didn't care about what happened around him or to anyone else after Lucrecia left him and he became a "monster" so to speak.

OR

SOLDIER may have been in the beginning stages of it's organization when Vincent was still a Turk so the idea of an army for Shin-Ra was floating around for a while. Surely the Turks would've been informed about it.

Your first point seems perfectly plausible BloodyCloud, given his meeting with Verdot and the Turk in BC, Zack finding the coffin in CC and BC and CC's clear indication that regular research was done in the mansion basement after the Nibelheim disaster.

The second is not o much so as the whole establishment of SOLDIER was based upon the Jenova Project which didn't come about until after Sephiroth was born. Bear in mind that the original existence of Sephiroth was to test the powers of the Ancients at extracting Mako and not actually for use in warfare.

Maybe it is....

Maybe... everybody on Gaia were a bunch of barefoot, stupid, altruistic hippies that just lived a communal, positive exchange based society of good will and favors, and were happy and innocent to greed and monetary gain...

And suddenly these Al Bhed assholes landed on their spaceship, brought with them their crazy Spiran capitalism, and just started oppressing since the beginning of recorded time.

Maybe Shinra's always been around, shitting on everyone and exploiting people

Maybe it was Shinra's ancestors that gave the lazy Cetras the idea of turning their backs on the Planet and stopping their migrations.

Given that Cid's rocket was number 26, surely there had to be numbers 1-25, just like with the Apollo and Gemini programs. Rocket Town's been a rocket town for quite a while, is my guess. Maybe that's how Cid got into aviation in the first place. It would be like growing up near Cape Canaveral. The lack of housing is difficult to explain away. Maybe it's all one-story pre-fab, hidden by the trees?

Given that Shinra first got rich on its weapons, there must have been plenty of customers. If their world were a real world, I doubt it would have been any nicer a place before Shinra's rise to power than afterwards, human nature being what it is.

I don't think No.26 refers to 25 previous models, I think its just a name. It's never been stated otherwise, though, so its open for debate.

Yeah, that's a good one. If Shinra were getting rich by making weapons, who were they selling to?

Not necessarily. Special Episode of Reno (Episode 27 of Before Crisis) said that Lazard is the one who assigned Cissnei to spy on Zack (thanks to S and G for providing us with summaries of the Special Episodes, by the way).

Similarly, given that Tseng is also present for Zack's visit, it doesn't necessarily mean that the two sent before were reporting to Lazard. He may just have some access to the file given that it is a SOLDIER matter. Tseng seems to be working with and not for Lazard, but that's not to say that the opposite may be true. Or that the two people's role was any different.

Anyway, apparently this has been debated before. There is no definitive answer so we should all just agree to disagree