FF7 Delusionals

[DrakeClawfang]

These must be the kinds of people who insist Rufus died and Genesis wasn't at Nibelheim. Isn't there a word for people who deny choice parts of the FF7 canon? "Canondeniers" or something? We should make one up. Anyway, on the FF Wiki, here's what two people had to say:

Ultimania reports ON events from the game, it does not dictate CONTENT. If Ultimania f'd up and said that Emerald WEAPON had 6 million HP, that does not make it true. In this case (Aerith's appearance in FFVII:AC, they are definitely incorrect.) Besides, why not just leave it out? It is an unnecessary detail and does nothing to add clarity to the presented sentence.

So basically we're going by one source that may or may not have anything to do with the actual content of the game, based upon the writing of those not even involved in the scenario of scripting of the game itself? Alright, if that's the way you want to do it, great. By all means, throw out all of the in-game script and "retconn" whatever you believe needs be changed to suit a STRATEGY GUIDE that may have gotten things wrong. Never mind the fact that anyone could write a guide and have it be the most "recent" and still screw things up. Hell, why make it one year? Let's just say that ten years passed, and hang the objective evidence to the contrary! I mean bloody 'ell - we're actually assuming that a whole YEAR passed between the start of FFVII and the death of Aerith, and that accounts for the missing time? Then then it took LESS THAN A YEAR for Edge to be built on the outskirts of Midgar? REALLY?! That doesn't sound incredibly stupid to anyone else?
Whatever. Anon made a great point, and I defended it, but I'm done. Revert whatever you want now. I'll never understand the obsession you guys have with Ultimania, but by all means, let that one subjective work override any sort of common sense and actual IN GAME/MOVIE content. Have fun!

So uh, yeah, seems Ultimania isn't canon because they're just strategy guides not produced by SE. Except they aren't, and they are, so....

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Maybe someone needs to tell him that SE writes and and produces the Ultimanias? Granted, he seems to think that it's just a strat guide and not an official work, so I can't really blame him. He just needs to be corrected.

 

[Cthulhu]

lol, but, what's the topic of this thread besides off-site bashing of people on some other site?

 

[Isabella]

There will always be the school of thought that the only canon is the work itself, and not author commentary on the work. But those fans don't sound like literary critics. They sound like butthurt fans.

@Cthulhu: I suppose we could veer it off into a topic of What IS Canon? Do we have a topic like that anywhere?

 

[Strangelove]

So uh, yeah, seems Ultimania isn't canon because they're just strategy guides not produced by SE. Except they aren't, and they are, so....

Right on the covers (or at least the paper strip on the covers) for most recent Ultimanias is a little sign saying 'Straight from SE' or something. They help with the production of the books.

What exactly was the problem this time? Aerith in AC what?

Some people will just disregard the Ultimanias and such. But I agree with Isabella. It probably isn't out of some specific view on literary criticism. The books probably just say something they don't like

EDIT; what do you know, I had some of those cover slips right next to me

There's a little mark on the cover saying "direct from the source: Square Enix official guide book" (産地着送－スウェアエニックス公式ガイドブッ&#12463

So they are officially endorsed. Also, Square published them theirselves now :mosnter:

 

[Madame Mayor]

The books probably just say something they don't like

Pretty much. People get these ideas in their mind about literary works and if their ideas aren't what the author intended, they try so desperately to discredit it. The problem is with the internet and fanbases everyone has drawn this thin line between personal interpretation and what's canon. The two shouldn't be discussed together and one isn't more important than the other.

If you want to have a talk about what you thought about something, feelings and ideas you got, that can be very interesting. It doesn't have to line up with canon. However, if you try to throw it into a canon debate and then get all butthurt because no one cares, well, your own fault.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Right on the covers (or at least the paper strip on the covers) for most recent Ultimanias is a little sign saying 'Straight from SE' or something. They help with the production of the books.

What exactly was the problem this time? Aerith in AC what?

I really don't know TBH. It's a timeline thing I think, based on the one you guys host here. On the Wiki we give the specific dates of events due to the timeline, and as such we give AC as happening in "0009", which according to the timeliene is after FF7 ends in January 0008, so they're like "it's two years not one, GROWL".

Some people will just disregard the Ultimanias and such. But I agree with Isabella. It probably isn't out of some specific view on literary criticism. The books probably just say something they don't like

That's what I figure. We actually had one Wiki member, a long time ago, who insisted that Rufus died in Diamond Weapon's attack in VII and insisted it be noted on the pages, because "AC isn't canon because virtually no one involved in production had anything to do with VII".

EDIT; what do you know, I had some of those cover slips right next to me

There's a little mark on the cover saying "direct from the source: Square Enix official guide book" (産地着送－スウェアエニックス公式ガイドブッ&#12463

So they are officially endorsed. Also, Square published them theirselves now :mosnter:

Aye, I know they're official, but some people are just stupid and don't understand what they're talking about. And Wikipedia is sapping my patience lately, so I've none left to deal with people who can't wrap their heads around the simplest concepts.

lol, but, what's the topic of this thread besides off-site bashing of people on some other site?

We could discuss the dozens and dozens of retcons SE has made to the FF7 universe that has lead to this sort of thing.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Makes me wonder if the same thing will happen with JK Rowling's encyclopedia she's going to make of who everyone got together with, when, what they did with their lives, important accomplishments, etc. because it wasn't in the books.

 

[Isabella]

Makes me wonder if the same thing will happen with JK Rowling's encyclopedia she's going to make of who everyone got together with, when, what they did with their lives, important accomplishments, etc. because it wasn't in the books.

You can count on it.

@retcons: What do people classify as a retcon, anyway? For example, I don't consider Genesis being at Nibelheim a retcon. To me, that's supplementary info. Nothing in the original game shows whether he definitely was or wasn't there. A retcon would be if they took something that previously happened (or didn't), and changed the way it happened later. For example, the Cloud tossed Seph/Seph jumped/back to Cloud tossing nightmare.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't really get the trouble with the timeline. FFVII ends in January 08, and AC some time in 09 without a specific date. Given that they've said it was two years later, it could easily be the end of 09, thus making it roughly 2 years.

Which took like half a minute to think up, and involved absolutely no baaawwwwwwing

Pretty much. People get these ideas in their mind about literary works and if their ideas aren't what the author intended, they try so desperately to discredit it. The problem is with the internet and fanbases everyone has drawn this thin line between personal interpretation and what's canon. The two shouldn't be discussed together and one isn't more important than the other.

I think the trouble with FFVII is that people had years to build up their own theories and explanations for things. Then some poxy book comes up and tells you "lulz, no you're wrong." I guess if you were really invested in it, it might be a bit hard to take.

But get over yourselves, plz

 

[Makoeyes987]

See Drake, this is why I couldn't do what you do at the FF wikia.

I love the idea, and I certainly appreciate all the hard work and stuff good editors and contributors like you do, but I couldn't put up with levels of stupid stubborness like that. People who deny black and white facts like that irritate me so much.

I had a hell of a time trying to edit in the facts from the FFIX Ultimania and the Dissidia Ultimania on the FF wikia, and it just annoys me too much."FFVII Delusionals" are essentially people who find something in the Ultimania that either shatters their understanding of the story in a negative way, or people who just don't like being told they're wrong. It's intellectual dick waving at its worst.

 

[Madame Mayor]

See Drake, this is why I couldn't do what you do at the FF wikia.

I tried improving wikis before with more accurate info or taking out things that were just personal interpretation, and all that ever happens is the original person who wrote the article gets all butthurt and edits it back without presenting any evidence of their claims the way you are suppose to for wikis.

Then I just stopped caring.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

See Drake, this is why I couldn't do what you do at the FF wikia.

I love the idea, and I certainly appreciate all the hard work and stuff good editors and contributors like you do, but I couldn't put up with levels of stupid stubborness like that. People who deny black and white facts like that irritate me so much.

I had a hell of a time trying to edit in the facts from the FFIX Ultimania and the Dissidia Ultimania on the FF wikia, and it just annoys me too much."FFVII Delusionals" are essentially people who find something in the Ultimania that either shatters their understanding of the story in a negative way, or people who just don't like being told they're wrong. It's intellectual dick waving at its worst.

Really, you've edited the Wiki?

Admittedly, I sometimes bite the anons, I blame instances like this. If people would just approach the situation calmly and discuss and explain themselves when needed, it would save us so much trouble. The main problem with Ultimanias, IMO, is that to my knowledge not many Wiki members actually own them, so we have to use translations hosted on other websites. It also means that if someone adds info and says it's from an Ultimania, it can be difficult to verify.

BTW, the guy replied again.

Yeah, you're right. Edge being built in a year isn't stupid at all. It's totally possible! And Reno stating that the events of Meteorfall occurred two years previous in FFVII:AC Complete, which was released AFTER Ultimania, means nothing.
Got it.
P.S. Drake, you're all of 21 years old - you were in diapers while I was playing FFI, so stop your posturing.
Even IF Ultimania states it, that doesn't make it any less moronic, nor you for failing to use anything approaching critical reasoning

He's angry because I talked down to him, I replied back - "I treat people the way they act, when you act like an adult I'll treat you like one".

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's pretty much me. I only go there to edit when there's something there that's so glaring and incorrect that my rage and annoyance compels me to drop what I'm doing and go into an edit war of attrition that results in the facts finally staying put on the page.

See trivia edits regarding FFIV: The After Years, and the debate regarding whether or not "The Creator" actually destroyed and consumed all the FF worlds from FF1 to FFVI based on the fact that previous boss cameos appeared in the final chapter of the game.

@Drake

Yeah, I've edited a few things there. Thankfully most of the time its good people who I've run into. But sometimes I meet the stubborn ones.

And I'm not sure what that guy's bitching about regarding Edge being built in a year. What the hell is he talking about?

 

[Dashell]

This whole topic is pretty much why I don't even visit the FF wiki.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That's pretty much me. I only go there to edit when there's something there that's so glaring and incorrect that my rage and annoyance compels me to drop what I'm doing and go into an edit war of attrition that results in the facts finally staying put on the page.

See trivia edits regarding FFIV: The After Years, and the debate regarding whether or not "The Creator" actually destroyed and consumed all the FF worlds from FF1 to FFVI based on the fact that previous boss cameos appeared in the final chapter of the game.

Ah yes, I recall that debate. For the time, TA suffered the same affliction as BC and Ultimania guides - Japanese exclusive content. But now the English release is slowly coming so that can be laid to rest for good.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ah yes, I recall that debate. For the time, TA suffered the same affliction as BC and Ultimania guides - Japanese exclusive content. But now the English release is slowly coming so that can be laid to rest for good.

That's one of the main reasons why I'm glad its coming here in the states

 

[Max Payne]

Irritates me when people quote wiki in arguments as though it's infallible.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Irritates me when people quote wiki in arguments as though it's infallible.

We aren't perfect, but we do our best to try as all Wikis do.

 

[Max Payne]

We aren't perfect, but we do our best to try as all Wikis do.

Only so much can be done to combat ignorance on internet.

When so much information is possibly false, site becomes useless to debates. Not your fault.

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, you're right. Edge being built in a year isn't stupid at all. It's totally possible!

Edge was built by pulling buildings out of the ruins of Midgar.

Plus no one said it was completely finished in a year anyway, or even by the time ACC starts. It's still a mess of scaffolding even then.

Guy just seems to be fixated on this 'one year' thing and is running with it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Also, what people don't really think about is that when buildings and cities are built, it's really just a few of contractors and construction workers that are doing it, and it's considering financial and budget concerns, so it can take a while.

But the thing with Edge is, is that it's populated by hundreds, if not thousands of forcefully displaced citizens from Midgar. Do you think just a couple people built Edge while the rest of the former citizens of Midgar just sat around and beat off around a campfire? Hell no, that shit was a group effort.

Yeah, it's really hard to imagine Edge being built in a year by a few contractors, but you'd be surprised by what hundreds of homeless, pissed off extradites can build with their own hands in a year. Especially considering that all of those citizens had jobs in the past I'm sure helped it along. You would have former construction workers, city planners, architects, plumbers, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people who helped build Edge helped build Midgar!

 

[DrakeClawfang]

This guy gets funnier and funnier every time he posts.

1) outdated: Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete also mentions AC to take place 2 years after Meteorfall, a source which post-dates Ultimania.
2) completely subjective; published by SE or a subsidiary? Sure. Great. Even they are capable of screwing up. Ultimania is not a freaking Bible, nor are you prophets that are somehow the only arbiters of its contents.
Bottom line: If they cannot retain consistency, then that is just bad writing. You are hardly doing yourself a favor by defending their inability to retain some sort of structure to their own story. "Retconning" is a filthy practice. I would hope that for someone like yourself, who is supposedly a fan fic writer, that you would realize this.
You can edit all you like, and ban all you will, and undo whatever - it doesn't make you right. SE screwed up, and you should call them on it, not freak out because your "sacred text" was somehow called into question.
You fanboys, I swear to God...

 

[Tetsujin]

What is he on about the 2 years thing? Did someone there deny that? I don't get it. More context info pl0x.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

This guy gets funnier and funnier every time he posts.

If he wants to say that SE fucked up, and he doesn't like the retconning and additions or decisions about the plot, that's fine, and a lot of people would and do agree with him. Everyone, especially fans and paying customers, has the right to criticize or dislike the direction the creators are taking with a creative license.

However, for him to say that it's not canon because he doesn't like it or he feels they're not doing it right, is retarded. Even if SE were objectively shitting all over the franchise, it's theirs to shit on. They own it.