FF7-FFX Connection...Who founded ShinRa Company?

[Makoeyes987]

We know because if it existed, the plot would have deemed it necessary to show. The game goes to great lengths to outline the general sentiment of the population via NPC dialogue.

We saw none of those type of sentiments. You assuming that it exists when the writers chose not to include it is projection. The purposeful omition of such kindness is to illustrate the dystopian setting the world of FFVII exists in. We do know this because...

Thats what they wrote.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Would anyone have thought that messed up? I don't know. Neither do you.

There are so many incidents of casual indifference that we certainly can make an educated guess.

It's completely unremarkable that there are large numbers of refugees during a major war. Some people keep walking. Some do not. That's how people work, it's not culturally significant.

What people do when a woman is dying with her small child watching isn't significant?

How do we even try to proceed with discussing the topic from there? =|

The train guard may have helped lots of refugees for all we know, no one can save everyone.

I guess he just didn't feel like rounding his purchase up to the next dollar for a donation that particular day. lol

We don't get to see the broader cultural context of these things, because the main characters are busy with terrorist bombings and world saving.

We have way more to go off than just the original game (which offers us a lot to go on anyway).

Why is the random guard the benchmark, when Ruvie Tuesti taking Denzel in is not?

We're discussing a fictional world where an authorial intent presumably was in play. When enough behavior of any sort is shown for average people, one has to start to think a certain picture is being painted.

In cases where casual negative behavior shows up all the time while kindnesses like Ruvie's are highlighted as so meaningful ... well, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Why should the bad examples carry more weight with you than the good?

In real life, they would not. In the context of literary analysis, though, they carry a different weight (not necessarily "more"; just different).

Cloud reflexively tries to save people at every available opportunity.

The real Cloud does. Rather unironically, the composite Cloud who embodies what Cloud perceives to be a cool dude, though? That guy who shrugs his shoulders and says "It's not my problem" or "It'll cost you"?

Come on, bro, this world's paradigm is as subtle as a pile driver.

The WRO isn't solely a military organisation, and in the context of thousands of orphans post Meteorfall, employing them could be one of the possible answers to 'how do we keep these kids safe?'

Reeve, at the beginning of the interview:

"Now then, Denzel… I’m short on time, so allow me to get right down to business. I should warn you up front, our organisation has changed. Gone are the days when we welcomed just anyone into our ranks. If it’s volunteer work you’re after, contact your local leaders. The WRO is an army now."

Zack doesn't have the full story of what's happening, the more he learns, the more disillusioned he becomes.

A lot he does with any of it. =|

He always had enough to make a moral judgment. Even as his disillusionment grows (good for him, I guess), he doesn't take much in the way of moral action despite all he has learned.

It isn't until he takes care of Cloud that he actually becomes a hero.

Shinra controls the narrative. How do you know there's no movement about slum conditions? But they won't get to publicise themselves on Shinra TV, so they won't get a large scale following no matter how many people want to help. Shinra tried to use the 'benefit people' narrative, but Rufus believes it's not working, and open repression is necessary instead.

Rufus never said it wasn't working. He said it was too much unnecessary work doing it that way when open repression would also work.

Cid makes a big speech in Dirge about the inherent value of life ...

The guy who, for years on end, domestically abused a woman so devoted to him that she was willing to give her life to ensure his safety and give him his dream?

Now, look, I'm not saying he's a bad person when I point that out. I'm mostly taking the piss that you're using him as a point of reference even as I acknowledge that, yeah, as the world at large goes, Cid is one of its decent folk.

But let's let that sink in: a guy who domestically abused a gentle, demure, loving woman for years is one of its decent folk. One of the people who inspired Annette Townshend to choose among her final words to her son, "There's something I've learned in my adventures. There is so much good in the world. I've traveled so far, despite my ignorance, thanks to all the good in other people."

You say, "If anything, FF7 world has a pretty high rate of people that will risk their lives to benefit strangers," and where I disagree with you here is in your choice of the word "high." If you had chosen "inspiring," I would agree. Because it's inspiring when such people show up in FFVII, and all the more so because it is not something anyone expects of anyone.

I mean, believing again that authorial intent is at work in these stories, I also then believe that "The Kids Are Alright" emphasizes for a reason an analysis of people as morally convoluted, as well as notions that kindness can be found in unexpected people or affection expressed in peculiar ways.

I'm not sure why we seem to be disagreeing so intently here. It's not like I'm being cynical or putting humanity down. If anything, insisting on assessing them as they are makes me take an optimistic view about them and makes me see their kindnesses as more special when they are presented.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Zack is presented to us in the original game as a charismatic person, but not necessarily as a good one. This was retconned in CC when he became the hero, but his sense of morality is so rudimentary that he feels becoming a killer for Shinra is a hero move. He says in so many words that he lets Shinra do all his thinking for him. I'm not saying he isn't an innately good person, I'm saying his society has provided him with no moral compass to help him figure out the direction in which a good person would move. Tifa and Barret are terrorists. Cid, as Tres pointed out, is an abuser. Don't even get me started on Vincent. Yuffie and Red XIII are both motivated by a tribal desire to defend those with whom they have an intimate personal connection. Pretty much everybody's morality, such as it is, is primitive, personal, tribal, valuing honour, loyalty, and, above all, vengeance.

Angeal is one of the few characters I can think of in the entire compilation who has any kind of evolved moral conscience. Our other heroes are slowly getting there, but it's a huge mental struggle for them. They're trail-blazers.

Aerith isn't motivated by "saving the world", not until right towards the end of her life. She's motivated by the desire to find out what happened to Zack, to get to know Cloud, and to understand her own identity as a Cetra. Nevertheless, she does seem to have a slightly more evolved moral sense than the others. She's also clearly designed to stand out as being a bit "abnormal", not fitting in with this world. When she and Cloud first meet she asks if he can cure the random sick guy in the pipe, and this concern of hers for a suffering stranger makes her seem a bit wierd.

Reeve makes it clear that associating with Avalanche has changed his outlook on life. He more or less says he's never before met people who put the collective good above their own selfish self-interest.

As a critique of capitalism, this seems spot-on. But like I said, I have no idea whether the designers of the game thought all this through and made it a deliberate part of their world building, or whether it's the accidental result of various game-play decisions, or something that happened almost unconsciously and automatically.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@LicoriceAllsorts
You often impress with your ability to discern and describe thematic elements. This post is no exception.

I'm glad you brought up the guy in the pipe. While his purpose may have never been to be more than foreshadowing the Reunion test subjects, he also served another purpose -- even if only accidentally, as you considered above.

Whereas in other games the player might expect, "Okay, here's the beginning of a sidequest to heal this guy" -- in this one, Cloud says "Listen, I'm no doctor" and the dude is never brought up again.

In a genre known for fetch quests and taking detours to get medicine or sand pearls or whatever to heal sick people during the bigger adventure, FFVII establishes itself early on as something that doesn't feel like its genre relatives.

Great summary of Zack, by the way:

"I'm not saying he isn't an innately good person, I'm saying his society has provided him with no moral compass to help him figure out the direction in which a good person would move."

Seriously, I'm standing up and applauding this right now. This is the most succinctly apt description of the character -- and the world of FFVII, by extension -- I've ever seen.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ah gee, I'm blushing.

 

[Theozilla]

Really good analysis LicoriceAllsorts, also I think your final couple of lines are a particularly important element to keep in mind when analyzing the world building of video games in general, particularly older ones. That development limitations/priorities shape what is presented/can be analyzed just as much, if not more, than direct text narrative intent for video game storytelling.

As a critique of capitalism, this seems spot-on. But like I said, I have no idea whether the designers of the game thought all this through and made it a deliberate part of their world building, or whether it's the accidental result of various game-play decisions, or something that happened almost unconsciously and automatically.

 

[Clement Rage]

The thing is, there are just as many benevolent NPCs as malevolent or indifferent ones, so why pick those as evidence of authorial intent and not the others? We can trade examples all day, but in terms of a lack of general moral compass, I don't think that's supported by what we see. For this argument, you need indications of general values, not 'that one guy did something dickish that one time'.

I mean, TTM'S original point was about the popularity of SOLDIER, but that one is demonstrably untrue. There's a huge PR push promoting SOLDIER, but that seems to have such limited effect that they can only maintain its numbers through large scale conscription.

Shinra goes to enormous lengths to hide the shadier aspects of their organisation and portray themselves as the good guys. Not just the powerful/dangerous/high paying guys, but the morally correct ones. 'We protect you from the crazy terrorist extremists.' That disaster wasn't us, we replaced the entire town rather than admit our wrongdoing' 'the terrorists dropped sector 7, we're the ones organising the relief effort'. If there was no general moral compass, why would they make that effort at all? Why keep the human experimentation a secret, when they could just go 'it's not you, why should you care?'

Single examples of characters being malevolent/indifferent are not useful, because there's just as many benelovent or heroic ones (as in the real world). Even Shinra itself operates as though it expects a general moral outrage if its secrets become known. Rufus tries to paint himself as a good guy in AC, he plays in Cloud's sympathies.

The real Cloud does. Rather unironically, the composite Cloud who embodies what Cloud perceives to be a cool dude, though? That guy who shrugs his shoulders and says "It's not my problem" or "It'll cost you"?

The guy that risks his life to save Jessie, and stands between a random slum girl he just met and Shinra's elite assassins for a comically small price he makes no attempt to collect?

What people do when a woman is dying with her small child watching isn't significant?

He's a train station guard during a refugee crisis, he can't save everyone. You're ascribing a lot of significance to a brief flashback from Elmyra's perspective.

Of course Ruvie means more to Denzel than that one guy that patted his shoulder once, what's remarkable about that?

"Now then, Denzel… I’m short on time, so allow me to get right down to business. I should warn you up front, our organisation has changed. Gone are the days when we welcomed just anyone into our ranks. If it’s volunteer work you’re after, contact your local leaders. The WRO is an army now."

I'll give you that one, but that also indicates that there are many volunteer organisations helping victims, that evidence a general moral compass or
widespread intent to help.

Rufus never said it wasn't working. He said it was too much unnecessary work doing it that way when open repression would also work.

"It looks perfect on the outside" implies flaws.

Cid's faults as a person are not relevant to a discussion of general values. My point is he invokes the value of life, in what's meant to be an inspiring speech. If there was no generally accepted value of life, why would he make that speech in an attempt to inspire the WRO?

Zack fights in one engagement in Wutai, and is already questioning his values by the end of it. He's not so different from the kids in the UK who went to war to save Belgium in 1914, and found out it wasn't what they expected.

Whereas in other games the player might expect, "Okay, here's the beginning of a sidequest to heal this guy" -- in this one, Cloud says "Listen, I'm no doctor" and the dude is never brought up again.

In a genre known for fetch quests and taking detours to get medicine or sand pearls or whatever to heal sick people during the bigger adventure, FFVII establishes itself early on as something that doesn't feel like its genre relatives.

Cloud doesn't say he doesn't want to help, or that he's indifferent. He says he can't, they acknowledge that and move on.

This is the weird part of your argument. There are dozens and dozens of sidequests and plot arcs across the compilation that involve saving lives of random NPCs, but you're zeroing in on the one where they don't, and calling THAT one the one indicative of general moral values.

Re: disagreeing intensely, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Clem, I'm not talking about random NPCs. I'm talking about the main characters.
1. When does Cloud risk his life to save Jessie?
2. I'm not being contrary here; when Cloud first meets Aerith, I gained the impression he had no great interest in her, but had almost a compulsion to fight against agents of Shinra, a compulsion he barely recognised or understood. Nine-tenths of the time at this stage of the game he has no idea why he does what he does.
3. During the train station scene, no one else is around. A woman is dying on the station steps and the station guard is indifferent. This might be the same guard who remarks that there's always been a rail between himself and everyone else...
4. Ruvie stands out as being exceptionally decent.
5. "There are many volunteer organisations helping victims"... There are a lot of self-help groups dominated by wannabe warlords, more like, all of them jockeying for power. Reeve's just one among many. Even the WRO turns into an army. TBH I don't remember Cid's speech.
6. Yes, Zack is questioning things, that's my point. He has some vague feelings that something's wrong, but what is it? is it that a little girl is wandering around by herself in dangerous place? Is that wrong? Is it that his mentor was the product of human experimentation? Is human experimentation wrong? Is letting yourself be turned into a superweapons so that you can killed 50 enemies at a go, is that wrong? Should he kill Genesis? Save him? He feels that he really doesn't want to kill Angeal but Angeal wants him to do it, so what's right and what's wrong? Kill or don't kill? He just doesn't know. Maybe their world has its Wilfrid Owens and Sigfried Sassoons, but we never hear of them. We get Loveless, a poem devoid of coherence.
Zack's moral values are no different from those of the Turks in BC; they're just as muddled and disoriented.
7. Most people, when confronted by intense suffering, are bothered by the fact that they can't help. Cloud is not bothered. I don't want to read too much into what is pretty sparse and badly translated dialogue, but to me it seems he thinks Aerith's a bit odd for even asking him - more, "Why'd you bring me here, wierd girl? I'm not a doctor" rather than, "Oh gosh, if only I were a doctor I could help this poor man."
8. I'm trying to think of some random NPCs whose lives the party saves. Priscilla? Cloud only agrees to do CPR when nobody else will; her grandad practically has to shape him into helping. The people in Fort Condor I guess, but I always skip that part. Does he save anyone's life in Midgar? He doesn't kill the submarine crew in Junon. Gongaga? Cosmo Canyon? Nibelheim? Rocket Town? Wutai? Gold Saucer, does he save anyone there (aside from his own party?). I freely admit I might be forgetting something. It's not that he refuses to save people, but that the situation never arises.

I don't really understand what your position is, Clem. My position is that their society is devoid of any strong, shared moral compass deeply rooted in the popular psyche. You disagree, which means you think they have one. But my argument isn't really based on the actions of NPCs. It's based on my observation that all the main characters are so confused about right and wrong. Avalanche think they're striking a blow against an evil empire when they bomb reactor No. 1, but Shinra isn't hurt at all. It's the little, ordinary people who bear the brunt of Tifa and Barret's thirst for revenge. Only really morally muddled people believe that terrorism is the answer.

 

[Theozilla]

The lack of deeply rooted popular shared moral compass is also a staple trope of the cyberpunk genre in general (which FFVII draws notably from). Watching films like Bladerunner and Akira also have very cynical apathetic societal settings.

*though it is important to mention/remember that Avalanche's plan to bomb reactor No. 1 ended up having civilians causalities because the bomb/explosion was way bigger than they thought it would be. Barret and Tifa aren't/weren't so morally callous that they would willingly concocted/executed a plan they knew from the start would have civilian causalities.

 

[Roger]

Clem, I'm not talking about random NPCs. I'm talking about the main characters.
1. When does Cloud risk his life to save Jessie?.

When they are running out of the Mako Reactor, Jessie trips again and Cloud helps her with like 2 seconds left before the bomb goes off with them. Having not seen what that bomb was gonna do that Reactor right in front of them I'd say he does risk his life.

6. Yes, Zack is questioning things, that's my point. He has some vague feelings that something's wrong, but what is it? is it that a little girl is wandering around by herself in dangerous place? Is that wrong? Is it that his mentor was the product of human experimentation? Is human experimentation wrong? Is letting yourself be turned into a superweapons so that you can killed 50 enemies at a go, is that wrong? Should he kill Genesis? Save him? He feels that he really doesn't want to kill Angeal but Angeal wants him to do it, so what's right and what's wrong? Kill or don't kill? He just doesn't know. Maybe their world has its Wilfrid Owens and Sigfried Sassoons, but we never hear of them. We get Loveless, a poem devoid of coherence.
Zack's moral values are no different from those of the Turks in BC; they're just as muddled and disoriented.

Zack doesn't have black and white thoughts on things because he's not in a black and white situation. His sole mission in Wutai is putting an end to a war eight years in progress before he got there. Shinra is the one saving the world from Genesis, who is killing innocent people all over the place. Genesis has legit grievances. I really don't think they present whether human experimentation is wrong as a difficult question for anyone to answer. Just whether Angeal and Genesis should view themselves as monsters because of it. How to deal with their acting out because of it is difficult. Sephiroth suggests a plan to deal with Angeal that involves failing to eliminate him. Zack is very happy about this. He's not THAT disoriented.

8. I'm trying to think of some random NPCs whose lives the party saves. Priscilla? Cloud only agrees to do CPR when nobody else will; her grandad practically has to shape him into helping. The people in Fort Condor I guess, but I always skip that part. Does he save anyone's life in Midgar? He doesn't kill the submarine crew in Junon. Gongaga? Cosmo Canyon? Nibelheim? Rocket Town? Wutai? Gold Saucer, does he save anyone there (aside from his own party?). I freely admit I might be forgetting something. It's not that he refuses to save people, but that the situation never arises.

They save the crew of the boat that was ferrying them to Costa Del Sol. They all would've been killed by Sephiroth had it not been for AVALANCHE. They save Elena despite her being Shinra personnel and the opposing party not being Shinra personnel. They take it upon themselves to fight Diamond Weapon before it can get to Midgar. And yes, they do save lives at Fort Condor.

I don't really understand what your position is, Clem. My position is that their society is devoid of any strong, shared moral compass deeply rooted in the popular psyche. You disagree, which means you think they have one. But my argument isn't really based on the actions of NPCs. It's based on my observation that all the main characters are so confused about right and wrong. Avalanche think they're striking a blow against an evil empire when they bomb reactor No. 1, but Shinra isn't hurt at all. It's the little, ordinary people who bear the brunt of Tifa and Barret's thirst for revenge. Only really morally muddled people believe that terrorism is the answer.

AVALANCHE is trying to slow down the quickly approaching death of the planet and everyone on it by destroying reactor no 1 which it does, however little. The threat is not imagined, even if it is not Tifa and Barret motivation for getting involved with AVALANCHE.

 

[Makoeyes987]

To answer the question of of other instances of Cloud and the party "saving people," there's also the chase around the globe against Ultima Weapon and his friends.

A literal kaiju hunt across the planet.

First the party chases off Ultima Weapon when it decides to attack Mideel before the Lifestream goes nuts and erupts out of the ground.

From that point on, Ultima Weapon soars across the planet before hovering above major cities, in a stance that shows it charging up Ultima directly above said cities. Since the Weapons in FFVII are attacking people indiscriminately in their attempt to find Sephiroth and eradicate all that threatens the planet, Cloud taking down Ultima and other subsequent Weapons probably keeps them from directing their misdirected ire at populations of people trying to survive an impending apocalypse.

Then of course there's the evacuation of Midgar Yuffie, Vincent, and the others helped coordinate before the battle in the Northern Crater.

But that's neither here nor there.

The point is that yes, the overall population of Gaia is classic dystopian cyberpunk amoral citzenry that are used to living in a "dog-eat-dog" world where bad things happen and nothing can usually be done to stop it. A combination of "learned helplessness" from the oppressive control of Shinra, and most citizenry being on the edge of survival due to scarcity of resources. The slum dwellers are used to being forgotten about and having to fight for every single thing they've got, and the towns/cities not being thoroughly oppressed by Shinra are mostly isolated and trying to get by with what little freedom they have and protecting what little they got.

I mean, for fuck's sake. A giant city plate crushed the entire population of slum dwellers in Sector 7 and everyone just shrugs their shoulders, and move on with life. One person in Sector 6 goes, "I used to look down trying to see what I can find on the ground.. Guess I better look up and make sure nothing's gonna come down on my head and crush me."

That was someone who lived next door to the town that was completely annihilated in a single night. That's not even going into the destruction and loss of life the inhabitants of Sector 7, ontop of the plate, endured. Because that act of mass homicide by Shinra destroyed the people there as well.

Let's also not forget the complete razing of Nibelheim thanks to Sephiroth and Shinra killing off/experimenting on the survivors.

And then the complete annihilation and bombing of Banora to eliminate Genesis, his copies, and evidence of his existence.

....And before that, was the massacre in Kalm Village.

At this point what towns HAVEN'T been massacred by either random acts of Shinra tyranny or bizarre experimental fuck ups?

The people of Gaia are numbed to massive casualties and horrible things happening by the time FFVII occurs. That callous on their hearts allows them to survive but in the coldest of ways.

Because the truth is, everyone dies everyday in horrific terrible ways.

It's nothing new, and it's nothing shocking. The train conductor probably has seen several people just keel over and die in the train station. For fuck's sake he's next door to the train graveyard. You think it's filled with ghosts and demons for nothing?

Only after Meteorfall and the world has no choice but to come together and rebuild thanks to the Lifestream and Holy demolishing almost every settlement on the planet does a semblance of global partnership and camradery emerge. The WRO helps refugees relocate, Shinra turns over a new leaf, and people open their homes to others in places like Edge and Kalm so others can start over.

It took the end of the world for most people to band together and help one another.

I mean, yeah. People are inherently good at times, but the world of FFVII wasn't good at all. It was harsh and oppressive thanks to Shinra and the multitude of monsters that just prowled the planet.

In terms of settings/planets that other Final Fantasies take place in, FFVII is in the top 5 most horrific and dangerous worlds to live in, maybe only outdone by FFVI's World of Ruin, FFXV's Eos that's trapped in a daemonic induced eternal night for 10 years, FFX's Sin terrorized Spira and FFXIII's Pulse and subsequent morphing into Nova Chrysalia.

The people of Gaia are jaded and numbed for a reason.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He doesn't kill the submarine crew in Junon.

Probably not, but the player can choose to have him do so.

They save the crew of the boat that was ferrying them to Costa Del Sol.

They all would've been killed by Sephiroth had it not been for AVALANCHE. They save Elena despite her being Shinra personnel and the opposing party not being Shinra personnel. They take it upon themselves to fight Diamond Weapon before it can get to Midgar. And yes, they do save lives at Fort Condor.

I'm not sure that the cargo ship is as good an example as the others. They themselves were passengers there, and they set out not so much to rescue anyone as to find out if Sephiroth was on board.

As for the Diamond Weapon segment, Barret did come off badly there. He wasn't all that concerned about Midgar until Cait Sith told him off and then Tifa reminded Barret to be the best version of himself.

I mean, TTM'S original point was about the popularity of SOLDIER, but that one is demonstrably untrue. There's a huge PR push promoting SOLDIER, but that seems to have such limited effect that they can only maintain its numbers through large scale conscription.

But official sources tell us that SOLDIER was immensely popular with young men, as well as that "the procedure typically isn’t imposed on one’s mind and body against their will."

I know you're thinking about that segment from Before Crisis where forced conscription occurred, but we also know that to have been a period of tumult and desperation. Genesis had just taken most of SOLDIER with him, AVALANCHE had just revealed itself, Midgar had just come close to being destroyed, and President Shinra had narrowly survived an assassination attempt.

Why keep the human experimentation a secret, when they could just go 'it's not you, why should you care?'

I'm not saying that isn't a fair question, but as you keep bringing up, Rufus did seem to think the lengths his dad went to were unnecessary. He was confident that just telling people to fall in line would have been sufficient.

(Of course, this scene brings with it the ironic observation that Rufus turned out to be a much better person than anyone thought, himself included. But that's another topic.)

It's also worth pointing out that Rufus said Shin-Ra's m.o. was more about convincing everyone that if they did their part, Shin-Ra would keep them safe. Certainly that involved fostering a media image they wanted to maintain, but the relevant messaging doesn't appear to be what we could expect to see in a society underpinned by parables or theistic codes.

I'll give you that one, but that also indicates that there are many volunteer organisations helping victims, that evidence a general moral compass or widespread intent to help.

... Cid's faults as a person are not relevant to a discussion of general values. My point is he invokes the value of life, in what's meant to be an inspiring speech. If there was no generally accepted value of life, why would he make that speech in an attempt to inspire the WRO?

... This is the weird part of your argument. There are dozens and dozens of sidequests and plot arcs across the compilation that involve saving lives of random NPCs, but you're zeroing in on the one where they don't, and calling THAT one the one indicative of general moral values.

"Dozens and dozens across the Compilation" strikes me as an exaggeration, unless you're referring to just DoC. That does meet the description.

Which comes back around -- roundabout though it certainly was -- to the point I've been making (though perhaps not as well as I thought I had): It's only after Meteor that we see humanity at large slow down and take any sort of reflective stock. We see and hear a lot of frank introspection of the individual and the species at large after that.

They only begin making strides toward coming into their own after they narrowly escaped a self-engineered extinction. And by and large, they're actually rising to the occasion.

They're starting to get a feel for what they should be, starting to become better. It's not for nothing, though, that even someone like Tseng can privately lament to himself in TKAA that not just scientific but also medical knowledge and talent seems to be accompanied by a deficit of character.

Humanity on that world is improving after Meteorfall, and it will continue getting better, but when we first came to know them, they were at the height of their decay and failings.

Zack fights in one engagement in Wutai, and is already questioning his values by the end of it.

I don't know if I really have any more to add about him than (especially) Lic and myself already have.

It's well and good that he questioned, but he never did anything about any of it. His dead-end soulsearching never helped anyone nor turned him into a hero -- which, to his credit, he had wanted to be. He didn't really have any idea, though, what that meant was expected of him until he had already died becoming one.

Re: disagreeing intensely, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

Oh, no, I don't mean to single you out, or suggest you're overdoing it. It's both of us, and I was speaking more to passion than being over the top.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't know why everybody forgets that the entire population of Banora was already dead and gone before Shinra bombed it. They were killed by Genesis. Except for Angeal's mum, who killed herself. Shinra bombed Banora to remove the evidence, of course, because that's their M.O., but also to try to eliminate that particular nest of "copies". The major criminal at Banora is Genesis, not Shinra.

Mako, I'm not disagreeing that it's a kind of bog-standard bog eat dog dystopian world. My points were these:
- the heroes have some innate instinct for goodness, but their society provides them with no moral compass. They have to figure out for themselves, slowly and painfully, what being a moral person means. It's like being born with a language instinct but never hearing a fully evolved language spoken around you, and having to evolve one for yourself. (That's intended as a broad metaphor rather than an exact parallel) They start off motivated by revenge and end up willing to risk their lives for strangers. Although tbh if they don't stop Sephiroth, the party will all die too, so there is a wee bit of self-interest involved.
- Is this amoral society the product of Shinra, or did they simply get the government they deserved? I don't think the game really answers this.

 

[Celes777]

Zack is presented to us in the original game as a charismatic person, but not necessarily as a good one. This was retconned in CC when he became the hero, but his sense of morality is so rudimentary that he feels becoming a killer for Shinra is a hero move. He says in so many words that he lets Shinra do all his thinking for him. I'm not saying he isn't an innately good person, I'm saying his society has provided him with no moral compass to help him figure out the direction in which a good person would move. Tifa and Barret are terrorists. Cid, as Tres pointed out, is an abuser. Don't even get me started on Vincent. Yuffie and Red XIII are both motivated by a tribal desire to defend those with whom they have an intimate personal connection. Pretty much everybody's morality, such as it is, is primitive, personal, tribal, valuing honour, loyalty, and, above all, vengeance.

Angeal is one of the few characters I can think of in the entire compilation who has any kind of evolved moral conscience. Our other heroes are slowly getting there, but it's a huge mental struggle for them. They're trail-blazers.

Aerith isn't motivated by "saving the world", not until right towards the end of her life. She's motivated by the desire to find out what happened to Zack, to get to know Cloud, and to understand her own identity as a Cetra. Nevertheless, she does seem to have a slightly more evolved moral sense than the others. She's also clearly designed to stand out as being a bit "abnormal", not fitting in with this world. When she and Cloud first meet she asks if he can cure the random sick guy in the pipe, and this concern of hers for a suffering stranger makes her seem a bit wierd.

Reeve makes it clear that associating with Avalanche has changed his outlook on life. He more or less says he's never before met people who put the collective good above their own selfish self-interest.

As a critique of capitalism, this seems spot-on. But like I said, I have no idea whether the designers of the game thought all this through and made it a deliberate part of their world building, or whether it's the accidental result of various game-play decisions, or something that happened almost unconsciously and automatically.

Licorice, I really appreciate your analysis. Would you mind sharing your insight about the Turks' motivation and sense of morality? Veld, Tseng, Cissnei and Vincent? I'm really curious.

 

[Celes777]

- the heroes have some innate instinct for goodness, but their society provides them with no moral compass. They have to figure out for themselves, slowly and painfully, what being a moral person means

This part is very impressive. A part I think...I guess hard to realize...? Since our education provides moral compass, to some degree.

I would really like to see the remake to answer if the amoral society is a product of Shinra. I mean not necessarily gives a straight answer, but develop this topic more.

I think the compilation and AC and novels are giving a sense that people like the convenience of Mako and believe that Shinra is making their life better with the technology. That psychology is a pretty accurate depiction to how we feel about capitalism...I guess.....
Anyway, I guess what they think is the key to the question if they deserve this amoral society.
But I'm not sure what people in FFVII think about the slums and shady things Shinra does. Or if they even know about it. Shinra controls the media.
Sorry about the rambling. Just some thoughts!

 

[Clement Rage]

Minato answered when Cloud risked his life to save Jessie, she falls running out of the reactor.

2. I'm not being contrary here; when Cloud first meets Aerith, I gained the impression he had no great interest in her, but had almost a compulsion to fight against agents of Shinra, a compulsion he barely recognised or understood. Nine-tenths of the time at this stage of the game he has no idea why he does what he does.

Doesn't work. "I don't know who you are, but..."

During the train station scene, no one else is around. A woman is dying on the station steps and the station guard is indifferent.

Indifferent? He/she is still and silent. That could be indifference, it could be shock, or exhaustion, numbness, or any number of other things.

"There are many volunteer organisations helping victims"... There are a lot of self-help groups dominated by wannabe warlords, more like, all of them jockeying for power. Reeve's just one among many. Even the WRO turns into an army.

That's your headcanon.

Yes, Zack is questioning things, that's my point. He has some vague feelings that something's wrong, but what is it?

Those... are the kind of questions one asks when some kind of general moral values exist, no?

7. Most people, when confronted by intense suffering, are bothered by the fact that they can't help. Cloud is not bothered. I don't want to read too much into what is pretty sparse and badly translated dialogue, but to me it seems he thinks Aerith's a bit odd for even asking him - more, "Why'd you bring me here, wierd girl? I'm not a doctor" rather than, "Oh gosh, if only I were a doctor I could help this poor man."

That's the thing about talk in text boxes, isn't it? It could as easily be my interpretation as yours.

8. I'm trying to think of some random NPCs whose lives the party saves. Priscilla? Cloud only agrees to do CPR when nobody else will; her grandad practically has to shape him into helping. The people in Fort Condor I guess, but I always skip that part. Does he save anyone's life in Midgar? He doesn't kill the submarine crew in Junon. Gongaga? Cosmo Canyon? Nibelheim? Rocket Town? Wutai? Gold Saucer, does he save anyone there (aside from his own party?). I freely admit I might be forgetting something. It's not that he refuses to save people, but that the situation never arises.

Jessie. Aeris. Tifa. Priscilla. Red. Fort Condor. Elena. Yuffie. Marlene. The entirety of Sector Seven (they fail, but try damn hard, and their reflex is to run into the pillar and try to save it, not to grab what they can and leave. Tifa takes a moment to try to warn everyone nearby to leave. They fight off Ultima Weapon when it attacks Mideel. They can succeed in preventing Corel from being flattened by a runaway train. Diamond Weapon. They delay the assault on Sephiroth to protect Midgar from Diamond Weapon. Before the CPR, they instantly run into the sea to save Priscilla from a monster. Back in the Nibelheim mountains, Cloud runs towards Tifa on a collapsing cliff trying to catch her.

BC: Various missions protecting people like Rayleigh and Shalua.

CC: Attacks on Midgar and Junon, Zack jumps into action to save civilians.

Dirge: Vincent works hard to save civilians and WRO staff in Kalm, Edge, and Midgar.

Advent Children: The entire plot hinges on saving random sick kids.

That's not even all of them.

It's based on my observation that all the main characters are so confused about right and wrong.

Not really, though. They never hesitate (I mean in a meaningful way, not a few second delay to gather yourself) to throw themselves into danger to protect strangers. They have alternative motives like revenge, but never question if protecting the Planet from Sephiroth is the right thing to do, or if they should walk away from the fight. Cloud explicitly gives his entire crew a chance to walk away with no hard feelings...and everyone comes back, even the Highwind crew. It's not really even in question.

That was someone who lived next door to the town that was completely annihilated in a single night. That's not even going into the destruction and loss of life the inhabitants of Sector 7, ontop of the plate, endured. Because that act of mass homicide by Shinra destroyed the people there as well.

Let's also not forget the complete razing of Nibelheim thanks to Sephiroth and Shinra killing off/experimenting on the survivors.

And then the complete annihilation and bombing of Banora to eliminate Genesis, his copies, and evidence of his existence.

....And before that, was the massacre in Kalm Village.

At this point what towns HAVEN'T been massacred by either random acts of Shinra tyranny or bizarre experimental fuck ups?

The people of Gaia are numbed to massive casualties and horrible things happening by the time FFVII occurs. That callous on their hearts allows them to survive but in the coldest of ways.

Because the truth is, everyone dies everyday in horrific terrible ways.

It's nothing new, and it's nothing shocking. The train conductor probably has seen several people just keel over and die in the train station. For fuck's sake he's next door to the train graveyard. You think it's filled with ghosts and demons for nothing?

Then why does Shinra make such huge efforts to keep all those things secret?

As for the Diamond Weapon segment, Barret did come off badly there. He wasn't all that concerned about Midgar until Cait Sith told him off and then Tifa reminded Barret to be the best version of himself.

A few seconds hesitation before he agrees to put his life on the line against a giant invulnerable monster to protect strangers and enemies. Not indicative of not having a moral compass.

But official sources tell us that SOLDIER was immensely popular with young men, as well as that "the procedure typically isn’t imposed on one’s mind and body against their will."

'Typically'. It did happen, and was common enough that Cloud immediately associates Turks with 'recruiting' for SOLDIER. It was popular with young men, but having a Sephiroth poster is different from actually signing up.

I'm not saying that isn't a fair question, but as you keep bringing up, Rufus did seem to think the lengths his dad went to were unnecessary. He was confident that just telling people to fall in line would have been sufficient.

Shinra fell before we got to see if he was right.

"Dozens and dozens across the Compilation" strikes me as an exaggeration, unless you're referring to just DoC. That does meet the description.

See long list of examples above, but let's assume I am exaggerating. Why should sick pipe dude indicate authorial intent, but the many, many examples of NPC saving and benevolent/heroic NPCs do not?


Cid's speech in Dirge of Cerberus that I'm referencing,amounts to 'do not throw your lives away for a cause.' If there was no general moral values that might inspire people to be willing to die for a greater good, why the hell would he make that speech?

They're starting to get a feel for what they should be, starting to become better. It's not for nothing, though, that even someone like Tseng can privately lament to himself in TKAA that not just scientific but also medical knowledge and talent seems to be accompanied by a deficit of character.

LOL at this thought from the man directly responsible for providing thosel people with their experimental subjects. 'Oh, it's the scientists that are the problem, if only they'd stop doing those unethical things with the people I kidnap for them to do unethical things to.'

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

1. Saving Jessie: he doesn't risk his life, and the player has the option of not trying to save her.

2. I'm not sure what you meant by using the quotation "I don't know you, but..." Cloud isn't exactly throwing himself into helping Aerith until he realises that he "knows" Reno is a Shinra spy, and after that he seems as much to think that Reno is after him as that Reno is after Aerith.

3. It's not my headcanon that a lot of the self-help groups are more like gangs. It's in Case of Shinra. It's not my headcanon that the WRO is turning into an army. Reeve says it in Case of Denzel.

4. About Zack. I don't think you're understanding the point I'm making. I'm not saying there are no moral values. I'm saying there are some rudimentary, primitive values based on thing likes honour and revenge, which don't help Zack when he tried to understand his own heart.
"I'm not sure what's going on but are you okay with that? Even I---I'm a SOLDIER therefore just fighting is fine! I can leave all the troublesome things for someone else to think of---! What is there to be angry about? Who is the enemy? That kind of stuff shouldn't matter at all!"

5. In your list of "random NPCs" (which includes people like Red XIII and Yuffie), Priscilla is the only one we can really call a 'stranger' to the party. And the people at Fort Condor, but the player can - and I do - refuse their invitation to fight. All the others have at least one person in the party who has an intimate caring relationship with them. Sector 7 is full of Tifa's friends - But, the dropping of the plate is also one of the crucial moments when everybody has to stop and think really hard about exactly what it means to be a moral person. IIRC, this is the first time Tifa shows any understanding of the harm Avalanche's activities have done to innocent people: "...are you saying it's our fault? Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?" They are not the same people, morally speaking, at the end of the game that they were at the beginning.

6. They don't walk away from the fight, but they do take some time out at the Northern Crater to consider whether or not they're really committed and what their motive is. And they all have a personal motive.

7. Shina keeps their activity secret so that people won't panic out of fear for their own safety. It's easier to rule when the people think your rule is benevolent and your approval rating is high. Rufus is the one who thinks that this method of government is wasteful and unnecessary. Why not be open about your activities and control people through fear?

8. With the exception of Priscilla, every single time Avalanche save random NPCs, they are also saving themselves and advancing their own interests. This famous qotation seems pretty central to the game:

"What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that.
Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's all fine.
But really, is that really how it is?
For me, this is a personal feud.
I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.
Saving the planet just happens to be part of that.
I've been thinking.
I think we all are fighting for ourselves.
For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us.
That's what we're fighting for.
That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

 

[Roger]

1. Saving Jessie: he doesn't risk his life, and the player has the option of not trying to save her.

Again, Cloud stops to help her twice. The second is not under your control and it is not under your control how much time is left on the timer, it is just is mere moments away from boom.

2. I'm not sure what you meant by using the quotation "I don't know you, but..." Cloud isn't exactly throwing himself into helping Aerith until he realises that he "knows" Reno is a Shinra spy, and after that he seems as much to think that Reno is after him as that Reno is after Aerith.

He doesn't recognise him until he is gone to confront him to help Aerith. And if there's not enough urgency involved it's because he doesn't how much danger this one guy poses to Aerith until he identifies him as a Turk. And I don't know that it's canon that Cloud decided that they must have been there for him despite all Reno and the guards' words and action indicating there were after Aerith, the person known to be in that church.

5. In your list of "random NPCs" (which includes people like Red XIII and Yuffie), Priscilla is the only one we can really call a 'stranger' to the party. And the people at Fort Condor, but the player can - and I do - refuse their invitation to fight. All the others have at least one person in the party who has an intimate caring relationship with them. Sector 7 is full of Tifa's friends - But, the dropping of the plate is also one of the crucial moments when everybody has to stop and think really hard about exactly what it means to be a moral person. IIRC, this is the first time Tifa shows any understanding of the harm Avalanche's activities have done to innocent people: "...are you saying it's our fault? Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?" They are not the same people, morally speaking, at the end of the game that they were at the beginning.

Red XIII was an utter unknown to the party when they rescued him from Shinra Tower. And again, AVALANCHE was ALWAYS saving the Planet, just like they never stopped having personal motives, they didn't start to address a real threat to the Planet late in game. This was the case the whole time. Shinra was killing the planet and every innocent and guilty life on it and AVALANCHE was doing something about it.

8. With the exception of Priscilla, every single time Avalanche save random NPCs, they are also saving themselves and advancing their own interests. This famous qotation seems pretty central to the game:

"What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that.
Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's all fine.
But really, is that really how it is?
For me, this is a personal feud.
I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.
Saving the planet just happens to be part of that.
I've been thinking.
I think we all are fighting for ourselves.
For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us.
That's what we're fighting for.
That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

That speech also implies that fighting for others and saving the planet are things that are accepted morally in the society they grew up in. Even if it is scarcely lived up to by the people that call the shots on their world.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ok. So what is your position on their world's moral values?

 

[Roger]

Most common folk, I imagine are raised on the principle of help thy neighbor, like Aerith wants to help the sick man, or the old man expects people to help Priscilla or Cloud is perceived as failing to do with Tifa when they were young. The Loveless play, and I'm talking about the part Cid shared in the original game, not the poem from the spinoff, shows us that the romantic notion of a hero in this world is one that foreswears his own safety and devotes his time to saving others, and putting his loved ones at ease with promises that he'll return. This is a massively popular play, so I feel it s fairly mainstream.

It is off course also a world where the practical reality that Shinra is the only option you have to keep the lights and heating on exist and people have adjusted, too much.

 

[Clement Rage]

In terms of the world's unusual moral values, I think we can reliably identify two.

1. Children are taught to fight and defend themselves young.

This makes sense, because dangerous monsters are everywhere, they need to be able to fend them off.

2. A strong bias against 'monsters' and things resembling monsters. Makes sense for the same reason.

Apart from that, I don't think we see any major lack of universal moral values.

Leaving aside the ones Minato covered....

About Zack. I don't think you're understanding the point I'm making. I'm not saying there are no moral values. I'm saying there are some rudimentary, primitive values based on thing likes honour and revenge, which don't help Zack when he tried to understand his own heart.
"I'm not sure what's going on but are you okay with that? Even I---I'm a SOLDIER therefore just fighting is fine! I can leave all the troublesome things for someone else to think of---! What is there to be angry about? Who is the enemy? That kind of stuff shouldn't matter at all!"

Those are super difficult questions,whether moral values exist or not. He's asking these questions, but there's only so much navel gazing you can do in the middle of fighting to your death. He fights one engagement in Wutai, but then the war is over and he's fighting Genesis slaughtering civilians, so they lose focus for a bit.

5. In your list of "random NPCs" (which includes people like Red XIII and Yuffie), Priscilla is the only one we can really call a 'stranger' to the party. And the people at Fort Condor, but the player can - and I do - refuse their invitation to fight. All the others have at least one person in the party who has an intimate caring relationship with them. Sector 7 is full of Tifa's friends - But, the dropping of the plate is also one of the crucial moments when everybody has to stop and think really hard about exactly what it means to be a moral person. IIRC, this is the first time Tifa shows any understanding of the harm Avalanche's activities have done to innocent people: "...are you saying it's our fault? Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?"

They're still random strangers when they first meet. Cloud is willing to defend random slum girl he just met from armed attackers. Aeris is willing to go rescue Tifa (who she doesn't know at all) from Corneo. Barret and AVALANCHE could just pick up their gear and leave sector 7, but instead they fight a hopeless battle to defend it. Barret doesn't know Aeris, but goes to rescue her anyway. None of them know Red, but they rescue him anyway.

You can refuse Fort Condor, but you can not go see sick pipe guy too. You cannot refuse to save Priscilla, Cloud hesitates to do CPR because he's not sure he's qualified, but he doesn't hesitate to save her from Bottomswell. Barret hesitates to go save Midgar very briefly, but then goes anyway. If you normally saw someone hesitate a little bit before running into a burning house to save people, would you usually conclude they had no moral compass?

There's no reason to believe it is the first time they've thought about this, they're just brought face to face with what Shinra is willing to do to defeat them, and are in shock.

Barret shelves his personal motive, which is solely against Shinra, in service to the 'real crisis for the planet' when he hears about Sephiroth.

Shina keeps their activity secret so that people won't panic out of fear for their own safety. It's easier to rule when the people think your rule is benevolent and your approval rating is high. Rufus is the one who thinks that this method of government is wasteful and unnecessary. Why not be open about your activities and control people through fear?

But if the world's values are 'take care of yourself', why don't they go 'relax, they're just people you don't care about who crossed us, we'll take care of you.' Shinra acts as though they expect the populace to believe in moral values.

The problem I'm having is that the argument that there are no universal moral values hinges on single examples from NPCs, despite plenty of counterexamples. That's not enough, it's finding a needle in a haystack and concluding that the entire haystack is made of needles, and on finding hay in the haystack, concluding that they're needles in disguise. Unethical medical doctor is being taken as a representative of the entire medical profession, but the ethical guy in Mideel or the surgeon that fixed up Barret are shrugged off.

Sick pipe guy is declared as evidence of authorial intent, but the many, many, many other examples of benevolent or heroic NPCs, characters, and actions have to be disregarded for this to work. Train guard as an example involves taking a very specific interpretation of a still, silent, faceless character in a flashback and making that the important perspective in that flashback, not the part where Elmyra takes in a random fugitive orphan.

Against that, we have Shinra acting as though they expect the citizenry to have moral values, inspiring speeches made referencing moral values, many selfless benevolent acts from PCs and NPCs alike, that all have to be dismissed in order to conclude that the world has no universal moral standards.

Even that sick dude seems to be being taken care of by somebody, by the way. He seems pretty helpless, and the locals know, but he's alive and fine, and in a part of the game where muggers are random encounters one screen away no one even stole his TV.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You keep saying there are counter-examples, but you don't give any.

 

[Clement Rage]

I... thought I had? The Mideel doctor, taking care of catatonic Cloud until the party arrives, the Fort Condor community putting their lives at risk to help it hatch eggs. The guy in Cosmo Canyon that repairs your buggy for free unless you force payment on him, because 'you'd have done the same for me.' (not very indicative of a world where no one expects anyone to help strangers, hmm?)

 

[waw]

I didn't want to open a new thread for this discussion, but maybe you fine folks can help me out.

This thought has been lingering in my mind for a while but never had the chance to share it with anyone. So...

https://thelifestream.net/canon-of-ffvii/is-ffvii-connected-to-ffx-and-x-2/
Nojima said during an interview that FFX and FF7 shares a same world but different planet. He suggested that the Shinra in FFX traveled to Gaia, and his descendants probably founded Shinra company.
Here's a more direct quote:

Nojima: “As a matter of fact, yes. Shinra quits the Gullwings, receives enormous financial assistance from Rin and uses Vegnagun to extract mako energy from the Farplane. However, he can’t complete the system to utilize the energy in a single generation, and the Shin-Ra Company is built on another planet in the future once travel to distant planets is possible, and stuff like that … Those things happen about 1000 years after this story, though.”

Jenova comes 2000 years ago. Cetrans who quit being nomads and lose their connection with the planet become humans. I believe this is all canon.

Are the Spirans/Al Bhed that come to the Planet arriving 1,000 years ago according to Nojima's quote?
Or is the implication that the Spirans and Al Bhed land on the Planet, start a civilization, become the Cetra, etc?
OR, is it implied they come with Jenova?

I take it the Shera airship shows that the world of FFVII may be discovering machina from ancient times. I wonder if they run on Materia/Spheres and if that's any better since it's naturally occuring....

 

[Theozilla]

If you want to analyze the Easter Egg connection as serous canon, I always interpreted it as the Spirans coming thousands of years ago and that modern humanity in the FFVII world would largely be the descendants of a mixture of Spiran migrants and Cetra who “became” regular humans. With presumably the Shinra family being direct descendants of Shinra from FFX-2.