FF7-FFX Connection...Who founded ShinRa Company?

[ChipNoir]

.....Eugh. Somethings I would rather have not noticed. x_x

 

[Makoeyes987]

...I thought everyone already knew that, hence the renewed attention and it being brought up in 2019.

Like, people. Come on. Get over it.

Shinra came from Spira thousands and thousands of years ago.

Why?

Because....Most of the crew from FFVII worked on FFX. The stories are thematic siblings. This happens.

So of course there'd be bleed over in lore and concepts. It changes nothing at all in the grand scheme of either's story.

I mean, you want to know something truly wild? Vagrant Story is connected to FF Tactics! And FFTactics is connected to FFXII! And FFTactics Advance (a series that ostensibly starts in the real world), is connected to all three. So yeah.

This isn't new people. Some Final Fantasies are closer than others in the grand unified multiverse of the series. I mean, next thing you'll tell me is folks don't know that the Interdimensional Rift runs beyond FFV's Planet R or something

 

[ChipNoir]

....It sucks. </stubborn>

 

[Roger]

Well, I've been hearing that for almost 15 years, but in that timeframe -- whilst a fighter jet-looking thing lays there bizarrely ignored in Bone Village -- I've never once heard anyone take issue with this same notion where Ivalice is concerned in other FF games. Or Academia and the New World of the Lightning Saga. Or technology on Spira itself, for that matter.

We are, after all, talking about yet another setting with a known cataclysm -- or calamity, more to the point -- in its past.

Stepping outside FF, I don't recall once hearing this complaint about "Halo." Or "Assassin's Creed." Or "Trigun." Or "Stargate SG-1." Or "Battlestar Galactica." Or "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic." Or so, so, so many other works of fiction.

Seriously: Ancient Technology That's More Advanced Than What We Have Now But Was Lost Following A History-Defining Event Like A Catastrophe is one of the most well-tread and re-re-re-re-tread tropes of sci-fi. I call shenanigans on this being a world-breaking plot element in a science fiction work.

Games that take place in Ivalice were always meant to be connected with other games that take place in Ivalice. I personally don't like it being connected to Tactics Ogre, don't like people riding on Chocobos on one landmass and horses on the other. And if you haven't heard people take issue with the worldbuilding of the Lightning Saga then you haven't been looking hard enough.

I know plenty of people that prefer the Halo universe to not have creatures from a completely different franchises show up in it. Same with any of those other franchises. Shinra is not some bizzare singular exception to the rule of universal acceptance of integrating every universe with any other universe throughout pop culture. Cid wanted to be the first man in space because he existed in a setting where no one was meant to have gone to space yet. President Shinra takes great pride in Midgar because it was all his idea. Not his greatgreatgranddad's idea that whose designs he merely followed out for him. There's no suggestion of that. It obviously does not fit. This connection adds nothing positive to the world of FFVII, it only serves to put some character from FFX-2 on a pedestal.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In Cid's and the entire population's eyes, he is the first person to go to space.

Anyone who would have claimed the title from a millennia ago or even have knowledge of said technology are dead and beyond any frame of historical reference due to the fact the technology simply doesn't exist.

And Midgar was not President Shinra's idea. The entire city's planning and development wasn't even his purview. It was Reeve's. He was the one who designed and planned it's construction. The technology for Mako Reactors wasn't even created by President Shinra. He's just the head of the corporation. The origin of the technology of extracting spirit energy from the planet is purposefully left ambiguous.

 

[Roger]

In Cid's and the entire population's eyes, he is the first person to go to space.

Anyone who would have claimed the title from a millennia ago or even have knowledge of said technology are dead and beyond any frame of historical reference due to the fact the technology simply doesn't exist.

And Midgar was not President Shinra's idea. The entire city's planning and development wasn't even his purview. It was Reeve's. He was the one who designed and planned it's construction. The technology for Mako Reactors wasn't even created by President Shinra. He's just the head of the corporation. The origin of the technology of extracting spirit energy from the planet is purposefully left ambiguous.

It had nothing to do with Reeve or Shinra. Shinra from FFX-2, already had the idea fully formed and had tested the technology before taking it to the Planet where his descendants followed his instructions to the letter. Whether you really believe he failed to mention he also invented, perfected and made use of space travel in his notes is up to you. I don't buy that.

 

[jazzflower92]

It had nothing to do with Reeve or Shinra. Shinra from FFX-2, already had the idea fully formed and had tested the technology before taking it to the Planet where his descendants followed his instructions to the letter. Whether you really believe he failed to mention he also invented, perfected and made use of space travel in his notes is up to you. I don't buy that.

It opens up tons of plot holes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It had nothing to do with Reeve or Shinra. Shinra from FFX-2, already had the idea fully formed and had tested the technology before taking it to the Planet where his descendants followed his instructions to the letter. Whether you really believe he failed to mention he also invented, perfected and made use of space travel in his notes is up to you. I don't buy that.

...Well you said President Shinra took great pride in Midgar since it was all his idea. But that's not the case at all. It was never his idea nor did he take "great pride in it."

Reeve Tuesti did.

Hell, President Shinra wanted to create a New Midgar once a better site of Mako extraction was found and then call it Neo-Midgar. Some pride, that is.

So I'm not sure how that has anything to do with Shinra from Spira thousands of years ago.

Again, the mechanics of mako extraction from the planet is purposefully ambiguous. Who said Shinra fully formed or tested the technology before taking it to Gaia? That's an assumption you've made. All that's known is that the technology begun and was investigated by the Shinra's family ancestor... Namely, Shinra from Spira. How it became perfected or harnessed is left deliberately ambiguous. You're adding answers where none are present. Only the fact that Shinra from Spira thousands of years ago posited and began researching said technology is known.

Which contradicts nothing in the narrative of FFVII.

How the Shinra Company shifted from Weapons Manufacturer to Planet Lifeblood Extraction Industry is completely ambiguous and mysterious. Acting like this somehow contradicts, confounds, or breaks the plot of the story isn't true.

Because it was never explained in the first place.

 

[Roger]

https://thelifestream.net/canon-of-ffvii/is-ffvii-connected-to-ffx-and-x-2/

Shinra from FFX-2 wanted to siphon the energy that flows through the planet to create a city of light that never sleeps. He used Vegnagun to test this and then came to the Planet where his idea was carried out by his descendents. How can you believe that is true yet also still believe Midgar is Reeve's idea? Midgar is the city that Shinra and Yuna make reference too, obviously. And if that's canon, and Shinra's work with Vegnagun is the answer to what you felt was an unaswered question of where the technology for Mako Extraction came from, then I don't believe Shinra is some long forgotten ancestor they don't know came from outer space either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because inspiration isn't the same as invention.

Shinra had a dream thousands of years ago of creating a city akin to Midgar utilizing the spirit energy of the planet as an energy source, harvested by an unknown, undefined technology. If that dream came to fruition on Spira is purposefully left unknown and ambiguous.

Thousands of years later, his ambition is realized by his descendants on another world, in another context, using similar technology that was pioneered by his research on another world. The world of Spira.

Shinra from FFX didn't literally go to Gaia, invent the Mako Reactor using Vegnagun's parts, and exist as an immortal entity that's served as the hidden braintrust of the Shinra Company.

The individual descendants of Shinra who lived on Gaia, after thousands of years, presumably used the breadcrumbs of his research, and crafted the technology that served as the blueprints and thematic model for what ended up becoming the realization of what Shinra had hoped to achieve on Spira thousands and thousands years ago. They used their own technology, effort, and machinery to realize Shinra's dream, which in turn became their dream. Shinra provided the research and nudge in the right direction, the descendants on Gaia did the work all on their own. In the end it became their own ambition because the descendants shared similar world views as him and desires for technological supremacy. They saw the potential in what was possible with mako and they wanted to seize the opportunity.

This again, contradicts nothing in FFVII. Because previously? No answer or explanation had been given on how Shinra went from weapons manufacturer, to energy producer. The fact the answer is "lost technology" in a work of fantasy where "lost technology" is a prevalent concept is consistent with the series. There is a huge gap in FFVII/Gaia's history where technology and records of the planet were lost, presumably due to "The Calamity From the Skies." The fact various hints and tells of technology beyond what's shown in FFVII exists leaves a wide open door for what could easily be all manners of lost technology that could even come from another world.

The fact said lost technology comes from a sister series the writers/creators also used similar concepts only makes the connection more established and consistent, if anything.

 

[Roger]

Because inspiration isn't the same as invention.

Shinra had a dream thousands of years ago of creating a city akin to Midgar utilizing the spirit energy of the planet as an energy source, harvested by an unknown, undefined technology. If that dream came to fruition on Spira is purposefully left unknown and ambiguous.

Thousands of years later, his ambition is realized by his descendants on another world, in another context, using similar technology that was pioneered by his research on another world. The world of Spira.

Shinra from FFX didn't literally go to Gaia, invent the Mako Reactor using Vegnagun's parts, and exist as an immortal entity that's served as the hidden braintrust of the Shinra Company.

The individual descendants of Shinra who lived on Gaia, after thousands of years, presumably used the breadcrumbs of his research, and crafted the technology that served as the blueprints and thematic model for what ended up becoming the realization of what Shinra had hoped to achieve on Spira thousands and thousands years ago. They used their own technology, effort, and machinery to realize Shinra's dream, which in turn became their dream. Shinra provided the research and nudge in the right direction, the descendants on Gaia did the work all on their own. In the end it became their own ambition because the descendants shared similar world views as him and desires for technological supremacy. They saw the potential in what was possible with mako and they wanted to seize the opportunity.

The multiple thousands of years you keep mentioning is what you are bringing into it, a singular 1,000 years pass between FFX and FVII. No, he's not an immortal being that built the Mako Reactors, nor is this connection meant to reduce him to some speculative Prometheus like figure. The Cetras and Jenova had their conflict 2000 years ago, Jenova was already long since buried under rubble when Yuna and Shinra were talking on the Celsius and there's a reason beyond the length of time for knowledge of them to be lost, and even then not near so completely. Ifalna knew where she came from.

This again, contradicts nothing in FFVII. Because previously? No answer or explanation had been given on how Shinra went from weapons manufacturer, to energy producer. The fact the answer is "lost technology" in a work of fantasy where "lost technology" is a prevalent concept is consistent with the series. There is a huge gap in FFVII/Gaia's history where technology and records of the planet were lost, presumably due to "The Calamity From the Skies." The fact various hints and tells of technology beyond what's shown in FFVII exists leaves a wide open door for what could easily be all manners of lost technology that could even come from another world.

The fact said lost technology comes from a sister series the writers/creators also used similar concepts only makes the connection more established and consistent, if anything

In the original game there is a lost culture. Yes, it provided useful lost technology uncovered here and there but the lost culture itself was important to the plot. The reason WHY they became lost in the first place was crucial to the plot of FFVII. How should this be taken as prompt to litter the setting of FFVII with random lost technology from random unknown sources with no intent to go anywhere with these ideas every time we to explain away something. FFVII had some lazy world building to start with to be sure but this is a whole new can of stupid.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And if you haven't heard people take issue with the worldbuilding of the Lightning Saga then you haven't been looking hard enough.

I've never heard anyone complain about lost technology in relation to it (which is what we are discussing; and what all those other examples were about), and neither have you. =P

This connection adds nothing positive to the world of FFVII, it only serves to put some character from FFX-2 on a pedestal.

Not really. Shinra from X-2 is lame and will always be lame.

It had nothing to do with Reeve or Shinra. Shinra from FFX-2, already had the idea fully formed and had tested the technology before taking it to the Planet where his descendants followed his instructions to the letter.

"Followed his instructions to the letter."

See, this is why this topic is difficult to discuss. =|

For whatever reason, it espouses such negative emotional responses that fans attack claims like this that aren't part of the concept to begin with -- and are, in truth, directly contradicted by it.

Whether you really believe he failed to mention he also invented, perfected and made use of space travel in his notes is up to you. I don't buy that.

Does the lack of common knowledge about a terror from outer space that almost destroyed the world mean Jenova didn't happen either? Rufus's own half-brother, who grew up as a commoner, found the notion outlandish.

The multiple thousands of years you keep mentioning is what you are bringing into it, a singular 1,000 years pass between FFX and FVII. No, he's not an immortal being that built the Mako Reactors, nor is this connection meant to reduce him to some speculative Prometheus like figure. The Cetras and Jenova had their conflict 2000 years ago, Jenova was already long since buried under rubble when Yuna and Shinra were talking on the Celsius ...

The "about a thousand years" is in reference to when space travel became possible. That still leaves an unspecified amount of time thereafter before FFVII.

 

[Roger]

I've never heard anyone complain about lost technology in relation to it (which is what we are discussing; and what all those other examples were about), and neither have you. =P

We were talking about a title making connection with stuff from outside of that title, like FFVII or any of the Ivalice titles with each other. Lightning Saga dips it's own toes into this well with Lightning's ending. Which in my experience people on the internet have plenty of bile to throw at.

"Followed his instructions to the letter."

See, this is why this topic is difficult to discuss. =|

For whatever reason, it espouses such negative emotional responses that fans attack claims like this that aren't part of the concept to begin with -- and are, in truth, directly contradicted by it.

What do you mean? From his words it's perfectly obvious he's talking about the Planet rather then Spira and that the city they are envisioning is Midgar. That to me indicates that no one in FFVII themselves came up with the idea to do this on their own.

Does the lack of common knowledge about a terror from outer space that almost destroyed the world mean Jenova didn't happen either? Rufus's own half-brother, who grew up as a commoner, found the notion outlandish.

Again, the Cetra had to take proactive action to contain Jenova, after they themselves as a people had been all but wiped out by Jenova. Subsequently the knowledge wasn't perserved among humanity who didn't partake in the fight. There are REASONS why this stuff was forgotten, reason vital to the plot of FFVII. It didn't just happen. Making FFVII a setting where these things just happen, and some random lost culture can leave some random fleet of airships in the ocean and it doesn't really matter is a step in the wrong direction for me.

The "about a thousand years" is in reference to when space travel became possible. That still leaves an unspecified amount of time thereafter before FFVII.

If you say so. The quote to me reads as "these things happen about a thousand years after FFX-2" being in reference to things he just listed, up to and including the Shinra Company being built on another planet. The Shinra Company was built within the lifetimes of the characters in the game. How this millenium is divided up in time the Shinra family spent on Spira, time spent in the depth of space and finally on the Planet between FFX-2 and FFVII is unclear.

 

[Clement Rage]

Isn't Reeve too young to have planned and designed Midgar?

I'm not going to argue the canonicity of this, but I'm not keen on it. Lost technology is common, but the fact that Shinra's descendents just so happen to be the ones to realise this idea (while somehow keeping their name and logo intact) is too huge of a coincidence, it makes the world feel constructed and less real.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We were talking about a title making connection with stuff from outside of that title, like FFVII or any of the Ivalice titles with each other.

We were discussing the use of lost technology as an element of plot or world building.

Chip said:

Spoiler

"Because the idea falls apart the moment you really think about it. The guy that has the tech to convert spirit energy into a resource flies to space, and then somehow despite keeping the family name (based on his first name) for 1,000 years, somehow manages to lose that technology then find it again? That is ten levels of bad thinking.

Don't get me wrong. There's space stories where colonies end up regressing, such as Dragon Rider's of Pern. But those don't jump from nomadic culture to contemporary technology in a mere 2,000 years. You don't lose and regain technology like that. Makes no sense."

I replied to that with:

Spoiler

"Well, I've been hearing that for almost 15 years, but in that timeframe -- whilst a fighter jet-looking thing lays there bizarrely ignored in Bone Village -- I've never once heard anyone take issue with this same notion where Ivalice is concerned in other FF games. Or Academia and the New World of the Lightning Saga. Or technology on Spira itself, for that matter.

We are, after all, talking about yet another setting with a known cataclysm -- or calamity, more to the point -- in its past.

Stepping outside FF, I don't recall once hearing this complaint about 'Halo.' Or 'Assassin's Creed.' Or 'Trigun.' Or 'Stargate SG-1.' Or 'Battlestar Galactica.' Or 'Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.' Or so, so, so many other works of fiction.

Seriously: Ancient Technology That's More Advanced Than What We Have Now But Was Lost Following A History-Defining Event Like A Catastrophe is one of the most well-tread and re-re-re-re-tread tropes of sci-fi. I call shenanigans on this being a world-breaking plot element in a science fiction work."

To that, you then said:

Spoiler

"Games that take place in Ivalice were always meant to be connected with other games that take place in Ivalice. I personally don't like it being connected to Tactics Ogre, don't like people riding on Chocobos on one landmass and horses on the other. And if you haven't heard people take issue with the worldbuilding of the Lightning Saga then you haven't been looking hard enough."

To which I replied:

Spoiler

"I've never heard anyone complain about lost technology in relation to it (which is what we are discussing; and what all those other examples were about), and neither have you. =P"

Then you responded with what I quoted at the beginning of this post, and now here we are.

"Followed his instructions to the letter."

See, this is why this topic is difficult to discuss. =|

For whatever reason, it espouses such negative emotional responses that fans attack claims like this that aren't part of the concept to begin with -- and are, in truth, directly contradicted by it.

What do you mean?

He never discovered how to make the idea work, while they did. Obviously they weren't following instructions from him, and definitely not "to the letter."

From his words it's perfectly obvious he's talking about the Planet rather then Spira and that the city they are envisioning is Midgar. That to me indicates that no one in FFVII themselves came up with the idea to do this on their own.

You're crediting the conception of an idea as being equivalent to developing the means to make it happen.

And it's an idea (a source of energy perceived to be infinite) that I think we can all agree intuitively lends itself to the notion of "a city that never sleeps" anyway without anyone from a thousand or more years ago expressly suggesting that precise application for it generations down the road.

You're also ignoring the shoopuf in the room: Shinra wasn't the first to conceive of such a thing. Zanarkand had already existed on his world, and was a city said to never sleep.

Again, the Cetra had to take proactive action to contain Jenova, after they themselves as a people had been all but wiped out by Jenova.

Subsequently the knowledge wasn't perserved among humanity who didn't partake in the fight. There are REASONS why this stuff was forgotten, reason vital to the plot of FFVII.

The Cetra didn't take proactive action -- at the very least, the tribe to the utmost north didn't. As you said, they were taken unawares in a manner they didn't anticipate while preparing to run.

There were other tribes (as such, their race probably wasn't nearly wiped out in the one go), who were then approached and attacked along with the non-Cetra humans -- which is salient to your second claim in this section.

While the baseline humans didn't take part in the fight, they did partake in being victims of Jenova. We're told their race survived when the Cetra didn't because they chose to flee rather than fight.

So while, yes, it's vital to the plot of the game that all these things were forgotten, there aren't better reasons for humanity to have completely forgotten about Jenova than there are for them to treat the Cetra like a fairy tale. Or for them to have forgotten the names of the old towns that became Midgar. Or for them to forget about ancient-yet-advanced technology.

It's just baked into the world building that humanity at large on that planet is self-centered, has a low emotional IQ, lives very much in the moment/moves on rapidly, and is neither particularly imaginative nor inquisitive about understanding the world in any scientific manner -- and in fact, those latter traits tend to be associated most with humans lacking in empathy or a sense of morality.

Even medical doctors on their world are presented as prone to exploiting people when it suits them and having only begrudgingly accepted a role in healthcare when they didn't get chosen for more fascinating areas of study.

And God's sake, man, even putting aside the many horrific experiments that were kept secret, parents from all over on that world knowingly send their literal children off to be studied and experimented on in the military (e.g. for joining SOLDIER), and then to war. If they care so little about their future, for what do we expect them to be looking to their past?

It didn't just happen. Making FFVII a setting where these things just happen, and some random lost culture can leave some random fleet of airships in the ocean and it doesn't really matter is a step in the wrong direction for me.

With what I said just above in mind, and the glaring lack of cultural cohesion or coherency on FFVII's world, I would absolutely describe its civilization as one where things "just happen."

If you say so. The quote to me reads as "these things happen about a thousand years after FFX-2" being in reference to things he just listed, up to and including the Shinra Company being built on another planet. The Shinra Company was built within the lifetimes of the characters in the game. How this millenium is divided up in time the Shinra family spent on Spira, time spent in the depth of space and finally on the Planet between FFX-2 and FFVII is unclear.

It isn't divided up. Nojima explicitly words the series of events as something that wouldn't have begun until about 1000 years after "the time of this story."

Even without familiarity with the Japanese wording there, though, does it really strike you as a logical reading of what Nojima says for the Shin-Ra Company to be founded within a timeframe close to the Shinra family's travel to that planet from Spira when a) no one in living memory is aware that humans have ever been in space, and b) the company was Shin-Ra Works before it was the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company yet Nojima speaks only of Shinra's descendants founding the latter (in other words, he's deliberately speaking of large swaths of time here rather than closely spaced events)?

 

[Roger]

We were discussing the use of lost technology as an element of plot or world building.

Chip said:

I replied to that with:

To that, you then said:

To which I replied:

Then you responded with what I quoted at the beginning of this post, and now here we are.

I misunderstood you then. I apologise. For me the problem isn't with the concept of lost technology. Though I do think FFVII case is different from most of the ones you mentioned. It's a singular small world, compared to the entire galaxy Halo, Stargate, Star Wars, Battlestar Galaxy has to hide stuff on. Tactics' showed a lost culture with airships and guns, FFXII showed a current culture with airships and guns in Ivalice's past. By no means was everything consistent but it's very different ballgame then what they are doing with FFVII and FFX-2.


He never discovered how to make the idea work, while they did. Obviously they weren't following instructions from him, and definitely not "to the letter."


You're crediting the conception of an idea as being equivalent to developing the means to make it happen.

And it's an idea (a source of energy perceived to be infinite) that I think we can all agree intuitively lends itself to the notion of "a city that never sleeps" anyway without anyone from a thousand or more years ago expressly suggesting that precise application for it generations down the road.

You're also ignoring the shoopuf in the room: Shinra wasn't the first to conceive of such a thing. Zanarkand had already existed on his world, and was a city said to never sleep.

The Cetra didn't take proactive action -- at the very least, the tribe to the utmost north didn't. As you said, they were taken unawares in a manner they didn't anticipate while preparing to run.

There were other tribes (as such, their race probably wasn't nearly wiped out in the one go), who were then approached and attacked along with the non-Cetra humans -- which is salient to your second claim in this section.

While the baseline humans didn't take part in the fight, they did partake in being victims of Jenova. We're told their race survived when the Cetra didn't because they chose to flee rather than fight.

So while, yes, it's vital to the plot of the game that all these things were forgotten, there aren't better reasons for humanity to have completely forgotten about Jenova than there are for them to treat the Cetra like a fairy tale. Or for them to have forgotten the names of the old towns that became Midgar. Or for them to forget about ancient-yet-advanced technology.

It's just baked into the world building that humanity at large on that planet is self-centered, has a low emotional IQ, lives very much in the moment/moves on rapidly, and is neither particularly imaginative nor inquisitive about understanding the world in any scientific manner -- and in fact, those latter traits tend to be associated most with humans lacking in empathy or a sense of morality.

Even medical doctors on their world are presented as prone to exploiting people when it suits them and having only begrudgingly accepted a role in healthcare when they didn't get chosen for more fascinating areas of study.

And God's sake, man, even putting aside the many horrific experiments that were kept secret, parents from all over on that world knowingly send their literal children off to be studied and experimented on in the military (e.g. for joining SOLDIER), and then to war. If they care so little about their future, for what do we expect them to be looking to their past?

Fair point, you're right.

With what I said just above in mind, and the glaring lack of cultural cohesion or coherency on FFVII's world, I would absolutely describe its civilization as one where things "just happen."

Not a reason to exacerbate the problem.

It isn't divided up. Nojima explicitly words the series of events as something that wouldn't have begun until about 1000 years after "the time of this story."

Even without familiarity with the Japanese wording there, though, does it really strike you as a logical reading of what Nojima says for the Shin-Ra Company to be founded within a timeframe close to the Shinra family's travel to that planet from Spira when a) no one in living memory is aware that humans have ever been in space, and b) the company was Shin-Ra Works before it was the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company yet Nojima speaks only of Shinra's descendants founding the latter (in other words, he's deliberately speaking of large swaths of time here rather than closely spaced events)?

I'm not familiar with the Japanese wording but 1000 years still strikes me as a long time. But maybe not so long that it no longer makes any difference if Shinra had never come the Planet and all that reached President Shinra was a recording of that conversation between Shinra and Yuna and he had nothing else to go from. Telling us that President Shinra's ancestor was a brilliant engineer who researched the subject extensively, got Vegnagun working again to try and mine the spirit energy in Spira before coming to the Planet makes me feel the intention was that he left his descendants more to go on then only the barest scraps of an idea that survived through several millenia of oral tradition alone.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's really quite striking how lacking their world is in a generally accepted moral compass. None of them seem to have any kind of deeply engrained moral values to fall back on; I mean the kind of morality that underpins a culture. This isn't to say that people don't try to be good - it's just that they seem to have only the vaguest idea what that means. They're groping in the dark. Almost every member of the party has done some very questionable things. What's right, what's wrong; they struggle to find certain answers. Rufus' appeal is that he always seem certain. In fact, there are times when Rufus - Rufus! - sounds like one of the most moral people in their universe:

"[Rufus] didn't believe in the aesthetics of running away when the planet was going to be destroyed."

"He must have a very unrefined mind if he can refer to people as lapdogs, thought Rufus."

He demonstrates a lot of human decency towards the patients with whom he's trapped in the cave, and later at Healen.

 

[Clement Rage]

Waitwaitwait, where did this come from?

If nobody cared about the secret science, why are all the research projects kept secret? They wouldn't have to be if there wasn't a general dislike for human experimentation.

RE: SOLDIER, Zack and Cloud sent themselves, their parents didn't send them at all. Notably, despite a massive PR campaign lionising SOLDIER, with fanclubs in the tens of thousands, Shinra is still forced to use mass conscription to make up their numbers.

The medical doctor in Mideel, on finding a catatonic man with terminal mako poisoning requiring constant care, puts him up in his clinic entirely for free for over a week, for no known benefit. If you want to stay overnight in that clinic, there is no charge.

The guy in Case of Shinra is a specific mad scientist doctor.

It makes perfect sense that their history is blurry, an enormous cataclysm two thousand years ago nearly destroyed the world, which would have resulted in a mad scrabble to survive for years, with everything else a low priority. The highest casualties would be among those with the most knowledge of what was happening.

Shinra is a totalitarian government, it's dangerous to contradict their narrative. It's likely not literally true that no one remembers the names of the towns, it's just dangerous to talk about them in case the Turks pay you a visit.

Elmyra takes in a random orphan being hunted by the secret service out of the goodness of her heart. Barret doesn't let go of Dyne under fire until his arm is shot off. An entire community puts their lives on the line so that a bird can hatch its eggs in peace. There's lots of examples of things like that. Basic human decency (and well beyond) is everywhere in the world of FF7.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think Lic or myself are saying the world of FFVII is devoid of kindness. Just that their civilization lacks an expectation of kindness or broader moral behavior as a cultural underpinning.

Had Elmyra left Aerith at that train station, would anyone have thought that messed up? Would anyone have said she should have at least called for help for Aerith or Ifalna? There was a station guard standing there not doing anything about what was happening. Elmyra even said you used to see sights like this often.

When 7-year-old Denzel had just learned that his parents and home lay at the bottom of a pit of burning rubble, another guard did offer a momentary hand on his shoulder and "That's a shame" -- then simply told him to get revenge when he grows up before ushering him along to find a new life for himself.

This is what passes for decency in that world.

There is no outcry in Midgar about the living conditions of the slums being an injustice. Those who live on the plate aren't unaware of it; they just don't care. The plight of the slumdwellers living literally beneath their feet just makes for dad jokes at the dinner table.

For their part, even the slumdwellers don't seem to think of any of this so much as engineered injustice as just the way things are supposed to be. Most of the people dream not of ending a horrific system of social stratification, but of improving their own place within it.

And remember that for the most part people aren't even aware that they're living under a totalitarian regime. They're not acting the way they do out of fear of constant surveillance. They're just being themselves.

Even Zack, the closest FFVII has to offer to the typical shounen hero, has no problems with imperial expansion on a sovereign nation's land, seeing it -- and the murders he carries out in its name -- as justified because it means easier lives for the folks back home.

Heck, even as good a person as Reeve is, living through multiple wars and countless tragedies doesn't impart to him that 10 year olds have no place in the army until a specific conversation with a specific 10 year old who had motivated Reeve's own mother to die protecting the child.

What Lic said rings true to me:
"This isn't to say that people don't try to be good - it's just that they seem to have only the vaguest idea what that means. They're groping in the dark."

Which calls to mind for me what Cid says about the planet, and how that must extend to the humans living on it:

"I always thought this planet was so huge.
But lookin' at it from space, I realized it's so small.
We're just floatin' in the dark. ......kind of makes you feel powerless.
On top of that it's got Sephiroth festerin' inside it like a sickness.
That's why I say this planet's still a kid.
A little kid sick and trembling in the middle of this huge universe."

That's what humanity on that planet is too. They're really just beginning to find their way.

The guy in Case of Shinra is a specific mad scientist doctor.

What about the one in "The Kids Are Alright" who caused so much harm?

Even the decent doctor in that story admits that being a medical doctor wasn't his preference. He wanted to participate in the research on Jenova.

Again, not saying that there aren't good people in general on that world or good doctors specifically. This guy was pretty alright, and the one in Mideel you mentioned was a stand-up dude.

 

[jazzflower92]

I don't think Lic or myself are saying the world of FFVII is devoid of kindness. Just that their civilization lacks an expectation of kindness or broader moral behavior as a cultural underpinning.

Had Elmyra left Aerith at that train station, would anyone have thought that messed up? Would anyone have said she should have at least called for help for Aerith or Ifalna? There was a station guard standing there not doing anything about what was happening. Elmyra even said you used to see sights like this often.

When 7-year-old Denzel had just learned that his parents and home lay at the bottom of a pit of burning rubble, another guard did offer a momentary hand on his shoulder and "That's a shame" -- then simply told him to get revenge when he grows up before ushering him along to find a new life for himself.

This is what passes for decency in that world.

There is no outcry in Midgar about the living conditions of the slums being an injustice. Those who live on the plate aren't unaware of it; they just don't care. The plight of the slumdwellers living literally beneath their feet just makes for dad jokes at the dinner table.

For their part, even the slumdwellers don't seem to think of any of this so much as engineered injustice as just the way things are supposed to be. Most of the people dream not of ending a horrific system of social stratification, but of improving their own place within it.

And remember that for the most part people aren't even aware that they're living under a totalitarian regime. They're not acting the way they do out of fear of constant surveillance. They're just being themselves.

Even Zack, the closest FFVII has to offer to the typical shounen hero, has no problems with imperial expansion on a sovereign nation's land, seeing it -- and the murders he carries out in its name -- as justified because it means easier lives for the folks back home.

Heck, even as good a person as Reeve is, living through multiple wars and countless tragedies doesn't impart to him that 10 year olds have no place in the army until a specific conversation with a specific 10 year old who had motivated Reeve's own mother to die protecting the child.

What Lic said rings true to me:
"This isn't to say that people don't try to be good - it's just that they seem to have only the vaguest idea what that means. They're groping in the dark."

Which calls to mind for me what Cid says about the planet, and how that must extend to the humans living on it:

"I always thought this planet was so huge.
But lookin' at it from space, I realized it's so small.
We're just floatin' in the dark. ......kind of makes you feel powerless.
On top of that it's got Sephiroth festerin' inside it like a sickness.
That's why I say this planet's still a kid.
A little kid sick and trembling in the middle of this huge universe."

That's what humanity on that planet is too. They're really just beginning to find their way.


What about the one in "The Kids Are Alright" who caused so much harm?

Even the decent doctor in that story admits that being a medical doctor wasn't his preference. He wanted to participate in the research on Jenova.

Again, not saying that there aren't good people in general on that world or good doctors specifically. This guy was pretty alright, and the one in Mideel you mentioned was a stand-up dude.

Well, it's an eat or be eaten world.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You said it. Yes, it's an "every man for himself" world. The game offers no clues as to whether it's being governed by Shinra that made them like this, or whether Shinra is, in fact, the government they deserve. And I don't know if the developers gave any thought to this aspect of their world building. I don't want to read too much into it.

 

[jazzflower92]

You said it. Yes, it's an "every man for himself" world. The game offers no clues as to whether it's being governed by Shinra that made them like this, or whether Shinra is, in fact, the government they deserve. And I don't know if the developers gave any thought to this aspect of their world building. I don't want to read too much into it.

But since we are nosy fans, we are going to do so anyway.

 

[Clement Rage]

How do you know any of that?

Would anyone have thought that messed up? I don't know. Neither do you. It's completely unremarkable that there are large numbers of refugees during a major war. Some people keep walking. Some do not. That's how people work, it's not culturally significant. The train guard may have helped lots of refugees for all we know, no one can save everyone.

We don't get to see the broader cultural context of these things, because the main characters are busy with terrorist bombings and world saving. Why is the random guard the benchmark, when Ruvie Tuesti taking Denzel in is not? Why should the bad examples carry more weight with you than the good? Cloud reflexively tries to save people at every available opportunity. Lots of people revile geostigma victims, lots of people try to help them. That's life.

The WRO isn't solely a military organisation, and in the context of thousands of orphans post Meteorfall, employing them could be one of the possible answers to 'how do we keep these kids safe?'

Zack doesn't have the full story of what's happening, the more he learns, the more disillusioned he becomes.

Shinra controls the narrative. How do you know there's no movement about slum conditions? But they won't get to publicise themselves on Shinra TV, so they won't get a large scale following no matter how many people want to help. Shinra tried to use the 'benefit people' narrative, but Rufus believes it's not working, and open repression is necessary instead.

Cid makes a big speech in Dirge about the inherent value of life, Reeve is gutted by all the people he couldn't save, 'there's not a thing I don't cherish!'

If anything, FF7 world has a pretty high rate of people that will risk their lives to benefit strangers.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We know because if it existed, the plot would have deemed it necessary to show. The game goes to great lengths to outline the general sentiment of the population via NPC dialogue.

We saw none of those type of sentiments. You assuming that it exists when the writers chose not to include it is projection. The purposeful omition of such kindness is to illustrate the dystopian setting the world of FFVII exists in. We do know this because...

Thats what they wrote.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Would anyone have thought that messed up? I don't know. Neither do you.

There are so many incidents of casual indifference that we certainly can make an educated guess.

It's completely unremarkable that there are large numbers of refugees during a major war. Some people keep walking. Some do not. That's how people work, it's not culturally significant.

What people do when a woman is dying with her small child watching isn't significant?

How do we even try to proceed with discussing the topic from there? =|

The train guard may have helped lots of refugees for all we know, no one can save everyone.

I guess he just didn't feel like rounding his purchase up to the next dollar for a donation that particular day. lol

We don't get to see the broader cultural context of these things, because the main characters are busy with terrorist bombings and world saving.

We have way more to go off than just the original game (which offers us a lot to go on anyway).

Why is the random guard the benchmark, when Ruvie Tuesti taking Denzel in is not?

We're discussing a fictional world where an authorial intent presumably was in play. When enough behavior of any sort is shown for average people, one has to start to think a certain picture is being painted.

In cases where casual negative behavior shows up all the time while kindnesses like Ruvie's are highlighted as so meaningful ... well, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Why should the bad examples carry more weight with you than the good?

In real life, they would not. In the context of literary analysis, though, they carry a different weight (not necessarily "more"; just different).

Cloud reflexively tries to save people at every available opportunity.

The real Cloud does. Rather unironically, the composite Cloud who embodies what Cloud perceives to be a cool dude, though? That guy who shrugs his shoulders and says "It's not my problem" or "It'll cost you"?

Come on, bro, this world's paradigm is as subtle as a pile driver.

The WRO isn't solely a military organisation, and in the context of thousands of orphans post Meteorfall, employing them could be one of the possible answers to 'how do we keep these kids safe?'

Reeve, at the beginning of the interview:

"Now then, Denzel… I’m short on time, so allow me to get right down to business. I should warn you up front, our organisation has changed. Gone are the days when we welcomed just anyone into our ranks. If it’s volunteer work you’re after, contact your local leaders. The WRO is an army now."

Zack doesn't have the full story of what's happening, the more he learns, the more disillusioned he becomes.

A lot he does with any of it. =|

He always had enough to make a moral judgment. Even as his disillusionment grows (good for him, I guess), he doesn't take much in the way of moral action despite all he has learned.

It isn't until he takes care of Cloud that he actually becomes a hero.

Shinra controls the narrative. How do you know there's no movement about slum conditions? But they won't get to publicise themselves on Shinra TV, so they won't get a large scale following no matter how many people want to help. Shinra tried to use the 'benefit people' narrative, but Rufus believes it's not working, and open repression is necessary instead.

Rufus never said it wasn't working. He said it was too much unnecessary work doing it that way when open repression would also work.

Cid makes a big speech in Dirge about the inherent value of life ...

The guy who, for years on end, domestically abused a woman so devoted to him that she was willing to give her life to ensure his safety and give him his dream?

Now, look, I'm not saying he's a bad person when I point that out. I'm mostly taking the piss that you're using him as a point of reference even as I acknowledge that, yeah, as the world at large goes, Cid is one of its decent folk.

But let's let that sink in: a guy who domestically abused a gentle, demure, loving woman for years is one of its decent folk. One of the people who inspired Annette Townshend to choose among her final words to her son, "There's something I've learned in my adventures. There is so much good in the world. I've traveled so far, despite my ignorance, thanks to all the good in other people."

You say, "If anything, FF7 world has a pretty high rate of people that will risk their lives to benefit strangers," and where I disagree with you here is in your choice of the word "high." If you had chosen "inspiring," I would agree. Because it's inspiring when such people show up in FFVII, and all the more so because it is not something anyone expects of anyone.

I mean, believing again that authorial intent is at work in these stories, I also then believe that "The Kids Are Alright" emphasizes for a reason an analysis of people as morally convoluted, as well as notions that kindness can be found in unexpected people or affection expressed in peculiar ways.

I'm not sure why we seem to be disagreeing so intently here. It's not like I'm being cynical or putting humanity down. If anything, insisting on assessing them as they are makes me take an optimistic view about them and makes me see their kindnesses as more special when they are presented.