FF7's story

[DrakeClawfang]

I'm re-reading Dissidia's script, and am really irritated at how...meaningless the FF7 story is. As far as I can tell, the Destiny Odyssey VII goes pretty much like this.

Sephiroth: You're a puppet, I can control you.
Cloud: Shut up!
Sephiroth: You only got the Crystal with my guidance
Cloud: Whatever

[Shade Impulse]

Sephiroth: You're dying by this disease called hope.
Cloud: I'll endure it then.
Sephiroth: Then you'll drown in pain.

So yeah, it bugs me because basically, Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's emotions and actions in their story amounts to nothing. He has no real reason to manipulate Cloud that I can tell, he just does it because he can and to piss off Cloud. Then in Shade Impulse they fight again because....?

This is my suggestion for how the FF7 story *should* have gone, makes more sense and stays more truthful to the original game. Do the whole manipulation thing as in Destiny Odyssey, but then, in Shade Impulse, we change it.

[Cloud enters the Northern Crater, when Sephiroth appears in front of him]

Sephiroth: "Welcome, Cloud."
Cloud: "Sephiroth, you're alive?!"

[Sephiroth turns around]

Sephiroth: "Of course. Did you really think you could destroy me. Foolish puppet..."
Cloud: "Shut up! I'm not yours to control any more!"
Sephiroth: "Is that so? And yet, all that has happened, is because of you. I cannot thank you enough."
Cloud: "What?"

[Sephiroth holds up his arms to the Lifestream around them]

Sephiroth: "Even if the body perishes, the spirit endures beyond death to merge with the world. I thought once I could will myself to enter that great flow of spiritual energy, but failed...then you came. So eager and blind, you followed my lead exactly, and defeated me."

[Sephiroth lowers his arms and looks over his shoulder]

Sephiroth: "It is as I said, Cloud. I cannot thank you enough. Thanks to you, my spirit has been freed to become stronger than ever. And soon I shall merge with the world, and attain ultimate knowledge. You destroyed Cosmos by the Emperor's plan, and now I shall become a god because you followed mine."
Cloud: "No..."
Sephiroth: "Do not fear, Cloud. Even if the world is destroyed, that energy shall soon become one with me. You and your friends will live forever as part of me, and together we will create a shining new world."
Cloud: "No!"

[Cloud summons the Buster sword]

Cloud: "I won't let you."
Sephiroth: "Is that right?"

[Sephiroth turns around]

Sephiroth: "Even at the brink of darkness, the puppet wishes to feign rebellion? Hmhmhm...very well."

[Sephiroth summons the Masamune]

Sephiroth: "I'll indulge you."

See how well that works? Ties right into FF7's original story, cuts out all the metaphysical-metaphorical crap that Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children wrapped the two up in.

It also makes Sephiroth manipulating Cloud have a real point to the storyline, because if you watch the scenes where Sephy chats to the villains, he says outright he killed himself to free his spirit and become stronger, and wants to merge with the world's energy to become a god. But at no time does Cloud have any relevance to Sephiroth's plans, if they fight in Shade Impulse, Seph makes no mention of it whatsoever. So really, you're watching two Sephiroths in Dissidia - one wants to manipulate Cloud just to prove he can, the other wants to learn the true nature of life and eventually become a god. Merge the two together!

So yeah, my version of how the FF7 story in Dissidia should have gone to be more faithful to the original. Thoughts, comments?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, I didn't really like it either. I understand Sephiroth's motivations have been really boiled down to fucking with Cloud, but in the context of the overarching plot, it didn't really mean much. I dunno, I guess they could have presented it better. I wasn't very impressed.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I understand Sephiroth's motivations have been really boiled down to fucking with Cloud, but in the context of the overarching plot, it didn't really mean much.

Exactly, hence my own version of events. :p

 

[Lord Noctis]

I think that actually would have worked way better. The FFVII plot in Dissidia really sucked.

I assume you'll try something like that in your fic?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Nah, my fic already has its own thing for Sephy to do.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Nah, my fic already has its own thing for Sephy to do.

Cool. Whens the next chapter out?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Soon.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Soon.

Lookin' forward to it.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I agree that FFVII got blown off. It basically existed to compile a bunch of dialogue from AC & FFVII.

That said, I wouldn't say it's completely devoid of connections. The fact that Sephiroth explodes into light rather than dissolving like the other heroes & villains indicates to me that he didn't "die" in the same fashion.

Therefore, it's not unreasonable to conclude that he fused with the Lifestream.

Anyway, I figure that, with the Compilation, they wanted to give the other games more attention. I can see that, I just wish it wasn't blown off entirely. On the other hand, it did inform the rest of the plot in other ways. That "reason to fight" thing is straight from VII, there's the world "crying," & isn't it interesting that all of the villains suddenly have a rivalry with one of the heroes, even if they didn't in the original game?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Your problem is looking for Vii's plot in Cloud's conflict with Sephiroth.

It's in his insecurities and interactions with his allies. Sephypoo is merely a catalyst for the insecurities and certain actions to get him talking to different people.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Your problem is looking for Vii's plot in Cloud's conflict with Sephiroth.

It's in his insecurities and interactions with his allies. Sephypoo is merely a catalyst for the insecurities and certain actions to get him talking to different people.

So I'm wrong in expecting Cloud's story to focus on his rivalry with Sephiroth while he works out his own personal problems? See also: FF7, AC, KH, KH2...

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I agree with Drake. This whole "it was just about blah blah blah" thing makes absolutely no sense. People don't focus on one single problem, solve that, & then go back to a new or older problem. It doesn't work that way. It never has, even for Cloud.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I think a friend of mine said it best in a blog review about Dissidia.

"What I don't get is how Cloud is like 'there's no point in fighting you Sephiroth, I've no reason to'. Of ALL the heroes in the game compared to their villains, Cloud has EVERY reason to want to fight Sephiroth! Where is this coming from?"

And he's not wrong. Consider all Sephiroth has done to Cloud, Cloud has every reason to want to kick his ass. The only reason I can think of that Cloud wouldn't want to fight Sephy is that he realized SE will keep reviving him and accepts that Sephiroth can never be permanently defeated. So what, Cloud admits no matter how many times they fight he can't ever win for good? That sucks.

 

[Edley]

Maybe Cloud thinks if he just ignores Sephiroth that he'll go away.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

That's what they tell you in school!

It makes sense in context of Dissidia. The cycle has occurred 12 times, already. He's fought Sephiroth so many times that it's lost all meaning. He can keep killing Sephiroth, but why bother? It's not going to bring Zack or Aerith back & he's not going to stay dead.

This causes Cloud to question just what the fuck he's doing there, anyway.

 

[Lord Noctis]

That's what they tell you in school!

It makes sense in context of Dissidia. The cycle has occurred 12 times, already. He's fought Sephiroth so many times that it's lost all meaning. He can keep killing Sephiroth, but why bother? It's not going to bring Zack or Aerith back & he's not going to stay dead.

This causes Cloud to question just what the fuck he's doing there, anyway.

I was under the impression nobody was able to remember the previous cycles of conflict. Or at least most of them weren't

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I was under the impression nobody was able to remember the previous cycles of conflict. Or at least most of them weren't

The villains can, the heroes can't.

 

[Lord Noctis]

The villains can, the heroes can't.

Ah, ok.

So yeah, that shoots the Neo-Bahamuts idea down right there. Face it guys, I think we simply have to accept that this comes down to bad writing.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

"Those with strong emotions retain their memories of previous lives. It does not seem to be constrained to one side."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It also makes Sephiroth manipulating Cloud have a real point to the storyline, because if you watch the scenes where Sephy chats to the villains, he says outright he killed himself to free his spirit and become stronger, and wants to merge with the world's energy to become a god.

I never got that impression, honestly. I thought Seph killed himself for the reason he told Garland: to discover the true reality of Dissidia's world. I simply thought he wanted to see if he would die, perhaps because he had become disillusioned with being stuck in the cycle.

Of course, I also think that Seph wanted Chaos's side to lose, this being why he led Cloud to his crystal, so I wasn't looking for anything like that anyway.

Anyway, I figure that, with the Compilation, they wanted to give the other games more attention.

I also figured that's why VII's characters kind of took a backseat in Dissidia. And am thankful for it.

"Those with strong emotions retain their memories of previous lives. It does not seem to be constrained to one side."

Either side could do it, but it also seems dependent on them surviving the previous turn in the cycle. Thus, why none of the heroes are aware of it during the turn we play, while a few villains are.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Honestly, I'm not thankful for it. As I said, I can understand the desire to focus on other parts, but I don't believe that VII should have been half-assed to accomodate that. I don't believe any part should have been half-assed for the sake of the whole, because I don't think that it should have been necessary.

As for retaining memories, I am not sure that none of the Cosmos characters aren't aware that they had done this before. That said, I'm not so sure they are, either.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The existence of the cycle is certainly presented as a shock/plot twist at any rate. And given all the other things these guys are discussing amongst themselves (e.g. Warrior of Light knows he's the only one who doesn't remember where he came from), if one of them remembered all these things happening before, it's likely that it would have come up.

 

[Max Payne]

I kinda felt like ultimately nothing in Dissidia's plot mattered, except for the overarching plot thread of conflict between the two gods.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So I'm wrong in expecting Cloud's story to focus on his rivalry with Sephiroth while he works out his own personal problems? See also: FF7, AC, KH, KH2...

Yes, actually. The rivalry is a driving force, but is not the focus in this instance. Largely because, narratively, it's not about overcoming Sephiroth- he's done that before and will do so again. This time, it's about Cloud being able to make a difference. A difference he is able to make. That's what Sephy's little jabs are about, really. 'You think you make a difference? I'm still guiding you by the nose.'

Incidentally, I don't think his rivalry with Sephiroth was so much a focus of AC. It was certainly the climax and the tying in of all the previous threads leading to the resolution, but the rivalry was not the focus of the movie.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I never got that impression, honestly. I thought Seph killed himself for the reason he told Garland: to discover the true reality of Dissidia's world. I simply thought he wanted to see if he would die, perhaps because he had become disillusioned with being stuck in the cycle.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/939394/57905

[The heroes encounter Sephiroth. If you aren't using Cloud to fight him, the
following occurs before and after the battle]
Sephiroth: "No one can stop me. Not even you. I am about to be reborn as a
god. The soul lives on...and someday I will reach the Promised Land."

[The heroes fight and defeat Sephiroth]
Sephiroth: "I am going on a journey... Just as Mother did long ago... And
together we will create a shining future in the Promised Land..."

So yeah...

Yes, actually. The rivalry is a driving force, but is not the focus in this instance. Largely because, narratively, it's not about overcoming Sephiroth- he's done that before and will do so again. This time, it's about Cloud being able to make a difference. A difference he is able to make. That's what Sephy's little jabs are about, really. 'You think you make a difference? I'm still guiding you by the nose.'

I can accept that on Cloud's side, but for Sephy it takes him back to manipulating Cloud just to prove he can, which doesn't work for me.