SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Lex]

Discuss chapter 18 openly here! No spoilers for anything beyond chapter 18 please <3

 

[Theozilla]

If it wasn’t obvious already that I have a crippling weakness for spoilers already, this should cement it. It’s a low quality phone video of the player’s TV, but this person beat the game already (according to the uploader’s comments it took them 27 hours, but they did only a few sidequests) and uploaded part of the final climatic scenes.

Looks like the Keepers of Fate somehow show Aerith Zack’s final moments (it’s basically a scene-for-scene recreation of his confrontation with the Shinra Grunt army from Crisis Core, but with the Keeper’s “recording” the events in the background invisible to everyone present).

It also basically confirms that the Buster Sword cross-guard theory is kapoot, as Zack in the flashback is shown wielding the Buster Sword with the steel bolt cross-guard, no gold parts unfortunately? (unless one wants to now theorize that Zack modified the Buster Sword while he and Cloud were on the run for almost a year).

 

[Pizzachu]

What the heck happened with that ending? Does anyone want to take a crack at it with theories? I'm confused. I saw everything up until Cloud had to fight that gigantic monster.

 

[Theozilla]

Looks like the final boss is some conglomeration of the Keepers that’s homaging in terms of design Safer Sephiroth’s boss form plus the size of the WEAPONs?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

You mean the Jenova-Heartless Darkside hybrid? XD Good lord, Nomura directed this game for sure.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Definitely some interesting changes at work here from the original. Aerith now knows rather definitively what fate befell Zack, and unless she's less perceptive than we should expect of her, she must suspect Cloud was involved in that somehow, some way. It will be interesting to see how that's explored going forward.

Also, I now strongly suspect the second installment of this remake to end right after

Spoiler

Aerith's death.

Aerith's request for help from the others at the end here seems written with the intention that it mirror Cloud's request for help from his comrades at the end of the original game's Disc 1.

It also basically confirms that the Buster Sword cross-guard theory is kapoot, as Zack in the flashback is shown wielding the Buster Sword with the steel bolt cross-guard, no gold parts unfortunately? (unless one wants to now theorize that Zack modified the Buster Sword while he and Cloud were on the run for almost a year).

Nah, it's almost certainly kaput now. Lol

But that's still interesting in itself, because -- as you said -- the game basically offers a shot-for-shot recreation of Zack's final stand from CC, with the altered Buster Sword being the only relevant difference.

 

[Pizzachu]

I'm watching people's reactions right now and it's pretty much this:

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Definitely some interesting changes at work here from the original. Aerith now knows rather definitively what fate befell Zack, and unless she's less perceptive than we should expect of her, she must suspect Cloud was involved in that somehow, some way. It will be interesting to see how that's explored going forward.

Yeah that was very intriguing. Though, I imagine it's going to be some circumstance of her hanging on to the final strings of denial at this point since she doesn't exactly see him fall. I would only say mainly because for what is suspected to come in Gongaga, I'm not sure if her fully functioning in the knowledge that he is dead works well with learning that he never returned home and still wasn't there. But who knows at this point—that part of the game is very susceptible to being different after everything I've seen.

 

[Pizzachu]

Someone had pointed out that Stamp looks different in the Zack video. I guess there could be other dogs in the propaganda, but it's interesting that it's a different breed in Zack's image.

Spoiler: Large Images

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not Stamp. That's one of his puppy pals.

It's a lower rank than Stamp.

 

[Theozilla]

Makoeyes987 graciously showed me another endgame clip (here https://streamable.com/xfde7u ), probably the same player but uploaded to a different site? It occurs after the final boss battle with party outside of Midgar on the outskirts. And it ends when the credits start playing, which is where the vocal/lyrical version of Hollow starts playing. This clip also has another Zack final moments flashback, Mako and I were discussing it ands it appears that the Remake is also incorporating parts of Zack's OG demise too as the clip takes place after Zack's battle with the grunt army but has Zack dragging Cloud alongside him to the cliff with the view of Midgar (where presumably Zack is going to get shot from behind), though it also ends before his actual death occurs.
So in the Remake Cloud won't be crawling up to Zack's dying body, he'll be right next to him when Zack get's shot (though I will bet they'll still have the final words/living legacy scene still occur/show up in future parts).

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Not gonna lie, I like that sequence a lot. So much thematic and storytelling material right there.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Ah yeah, also, I don't remember who mentioned it, but whoever proposed that Hollow applied to elements about Zack's death/journey with Cloud (especially, pretty much, this now backing Nobou's mentioned image of Cloud standing in rain)—I see this so much more strongly now. The question is, in being reflected of the events of Zack and Cloud, if the song is indeed a possible play at Zack's perspective towards Aerith during his final bout? I still argue that theme songs for contexts like this more often than not have a wide array of appliance, but this seems to be a very definite point it carries through specifically. The fact this sequence includes Aerith in some form is just....

 

[Theozilla]

Definitely some interesting changes at work here from the original. Aerith now knows rather definitively what fate befell Zack, and unless she's less perceptive than we should expect of her, she must suspect Cloud was involved in that somehow, some way. It will be interesting to see how that's explored going forward.

Though like MelodicEnigma, since none of the flashback visions Aerith experiences (assuming the second post-final boss battle one is non-diegetic) actually show Zack's death itself, I agree there's likely still going to be some denial going on, even with the likely additions/changes to the eventual Gongaga scenario.

Also, I now strongly suspect the second installment of this remake to end right after

Spoiler

Aerith's death.

Aerith's request for help from the others at the end here seems written with the intention that it mirror Cloud's request for help from his comrades at the end of the original game's Disc 1.

I'm still hoping for the second installment to end with Meteor being summoned/the WEAPONs being woken up, since like Vyzzuvazzadth has argued, I think it would work best structurally both in terms of narrative and gameplay (with the final installment occurring in a post-meteor summon world, showing how the Meteor in the sky has affected the world).
But I can agree with Aerith's death being the second best place for the second installment to end. For the reasons you stated, plus Aerith not being a playable character in the subsequent part, could also work as a gameplay differentiation.

 

[oty]

Okay so what is up with the ending tho? Like people outright saying "alternate timelines".

 

[Pizzachu]

I have no idea about the ending, but I think people might be getting the idea of alternate timelines from a description of one of the Watchmen of Fate:

Spoiler: Description Image

It's fun seeing all the theories that are floating around.

 

[Theozilla]

As I said in my discussion with Makoeyes987, I don't know if the Whispers are literally time traveling from an alternate timeline though? The "protect the future that gave shape to it" I think is more likely just the future Sephiroth desires/intends, not an actual already existing alternate future, at least that's my interpretation based on the info I have seen so far.

 

[oty]

So the whole Zack ending....did he really die tho? It just doesnt seem like it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I was gonna try to avoid discussing this too much before I played it myself since I want to watch it myself and see. But from what I know, and have heard? There's some serious insanity going on

And I kinda have to eat my own words on this since... I mean, I won't know for sure until I actually witness and see what Sephiroth's monologue and statements are in the climax before the final fight but... The final fight has the party fight these Whispers. Specifically Whisper Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo.

Spoiler: This is the bestiary entry for Whisper Rubrum

Just.. From how it appears to me...

The events of OG FFVII have more or less happened the same way here in the Remake. Adaption details and updates notwithstanding.

However, this is in part due to the Whispers interceding in specific events. Events that protect the bizarre, unseen alternate future they come from that is a threat to the present's safety and existence.

This future is one that the current Sephiroth wishes to happen. Hence the scene of Meteor coming down, Midgar being destroyed, etc. Sephiroth, through means unknown, has invoked these Whispers and is utilizing them in his scheme to destroy the planet.

Apparently, when Sephiroth in Advent Children said he wished to "create a shining future", he was speaking literally

So the whole Zack ending....did he really die tho? It just doesnt seem like it.

Zack is dead.

What's tripping people is out is the fact that FFVII Remake is integrating the depiction of Zack's last stand in Crisis Core, and Zack's death in OG FFVII.

In OG FFVII, Zack is carrying Cloud before the 3 MPs catch up to him, and he ditches Cloud before getting shot. That's why FFVII-R showed that vision to Aerith. Apparently, the Whispers witnessed that event, unseen by everyone else, and then passed that knowledge to her. So she's aware now that Zack is dead and seemingly connected to Cloud. Hence her look of shock.

 

[oty]

Kind of getting the best of both worlds huh? I always thought both of his depictions were good, well...now I got both lol.

Holy moly ... we are in for a ride boys.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes.. A very wild fucking ride.

There are apparently hidden files or something that can be obtained through completing Hard Mode. That might shed more light on this whole thing...

 

[Theozilla]

In OG FFVII, Zack is carrying Cloud before the 3 MPs catch up to him, and he ditches Cloud before getting shot. That's why FFVII-R showed that vision to Aerith. Apparently, the Whispers witnessed that event, unseen by everyone else, and then passed that knowledge to her. So she's aware now that Zack is dead and seemingly connected to Cloud. Hence her look of shock.

Actually she only sees Zack pulling Cloud along after his big battle with the grunt army. She doesn't actually see his death itself.

I think Nojima may be a big Nietzsche fan or at least a True Detective fan. I think the Whispers and the Planet and Sephiroth are basically doing a big "Time is a flat circle" thing in terms of the "the future" stuff.

Like the primacy of will fits with the Sephiroth and Planet stuff. Sephiroith is like analogues to Schopenhauer and the protagonists are Nietzsche. Sephiroth's will is leading to an absurd no salvation future, while the party is pushing to bring a meaningful future and existence through their will.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

In OG FFVII, Zack is carrying Cloud before the 3 MPs catch up to him, and he ditches Cloud before getting shot. That's why FFVII-R showed that vision to Aerith. Apparently, the Whispers witnessed that event, unseen by everyone else, and then passed that knowledge to her. So she's aware now that Zack is dead and seemingly connected to Cloud. Hence her look of shock.

Well, we don't know if she saw him die exactly, which her seeing the entirety of Zack's Last Stand and death included is a different impact than her just seeing an event he is entangled with at a given time that definitely lends to the idea (which is already there, by the common thought of any ambiguous loss dealing with military folk). I'm not even sure if we can say yet that the ending sequence is Aerith actually seeing that happen as opposed to being for the sake of cinematic ending value), or even that she was given that additional information during the other showing of Zack earlier. One thing is for sure—it definitely hits at the ambiguous loss she has been dealing with, and Zack's death is way to prominent for the story for a multitude of reasons that don't leave it up for change.

Mostly, obviously, there won't be any extreme clarity of Aerith's mindset and feelings towards seeing that (and possibly that ending sequence) until the next game.

 

[Kratos]

The problem I have with all this is that it further complicates what was already a twisty-turny story, and it remains to be seen if it was really all that necessary - especially since Kitase wants this game to help make FFVII a game for future generations. At a certain point of convolution, you start losing people (and god help us if this does end up being some big meta alternate universe deal). I don’t want the SAME game that was released in 1997, but I don’t want them to go full Eva Rebuild with it in the name of “keeping things interesting,” either. FFVII’s plot is already plenty interesting.

I say this, even though I’m personally fine with Sephiroth hijacking some aspect of the Planet or whatever to manipulate events in his favour. That tracks with the original plot, even if it’s not strictly necessary. I think the only thing that doesn’t sit right with me are these weird flash-forwards that Cloud gets - Sephiroth showing HIS plans (meteor) and past events is one thing, but I’m just not a fan of pre-destination stories where everything that will be is set in stone to the point where people can be shown glimpses of what will happen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The problem I have with all this is that it further complicates what was already a twisty-turny story, and it remains to be seen if it was really all that necessary - especially since Kitase wants this game to help make FFVII a game for future generations. At a certain point of convolution, you start losing people (and god help us if this does end up being some big meta alternate universe deal). I don’t want the SAME game that was released in 1997, but I don’t want them to go full Eva Rebuild with it in the name of “keeping things interesting,” either. FFVII’s plot is already plenty interesting.

It complicates it, but on one hand doesn't.

The main events of OG FFVII play out here in the Remake. Don't get it confused, they do technically adhere to those sequences.

...It's the reason why they adhere to it that's changed.

And as I thought about it more, this is exactly how you would fuck people up into believing Aerith was somehow going to live.

Make inexperienced, or hopeful players think that because the heroes are fighting against a force trying to align events with the OG, the OG's event of Aerith being killed can somehow be avoided or will be. And they'll trick themselves into thinking it can happen.

Only for it to not.

I say this, even though I’m personally fine with Sephiroth hijacking some aspect of the Planet or whatever to manipulate events in his favour. That tracks with the original plot, even if it’s not strictly necessary. I think the only thing that doesn’t sit right with me are these weird flash-forwards that Cloud gets - Sephiroth showing HIS plans (meteor) and past events is one thing, but I’m just not a fan of pre-destination stories where everything that will be is set in stone to the point where people can be shown glimpses of what will happen.

It's technically not pre-destination. Things can change, but at this point, we don't know what. It's going to adhere to the OG story in the main ways but what or how it'll get there is completely up in the air. This is a perfect example of the begin and end points being the same.. But the journey to the destination being not as expected.