Final Fantasy VIII hate (split from XV discussion)

[Jarlix]

Not going to comment on the rest of the series.
But FF7 and 8 are better written than most tv shows/ movies let alone games.

Anyway
Epic lol at the title change.

Huge kudos to those who guessed it to happen years before.

Not going to comment on VIII. Hate the protag, hate Time Kompression, hate the orphanage plot twist. VII's cast are so much more nuanced and well developed.

That's why I'm afraid for XV's story. Scared none of these characters besides Noctis will be exhaustively explored.

 

[Novus]

Not going to comment on VIII. Hate the protag, hate Time Kompression, hate the orphanage plot twist.

You might personally hate it, but its perfectly well tied together. Their mission involving time compression could only work with SEED that had known each other their entire lives and land together in the correct location. The orphanage plot twist was inevitable since destiny had per-ordained they all meet again for the time travel to work. Unless you're talking about the memory issue which is a science fiction concept of using mind altering weapons for battle. The way the twist was handled itself was probably more subtle than most people remember.

I think VII is definitely more artistic and surreal, it is also more varied, but in terms of consistency of writing VIII is better. It would probably be better if you gave an example of a similar type of story you believe to be better written (involving memories, free will, time travel ect) than to niggle at what we personally like or dislike from a game.

So the argument is diversity vs consistency. I think consistency will win out, we are never going to get a game like VI again with characters in tanks, from a ghost train to breathing underwater through the serpents trench. Not a main title anyway.

 

[Jarlix]

Chrono Trigger is the only game I've seen that's well written with time travel. My idea of good writing is stuff like FFT, Xenogears, Game of Thrones. FFVII wins out because I just have this massive hard on for Midgar and all of the characters, the music, locales, identity crisis'. And the fact all of the characters have a good deal of personal development unlike everyone in VIII.

Also I hate how everyone in VIII glances over death with no concept of mourning it. It's this Disneyland like setting that meshes badly with the immense of amount of murder and war taking place at the behest of kids trained to kill. That isn't how it works in reality.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is rather common in Japanese fiction, though, which is usually a commentary in itself. Ever since World War II, there's been an underlying sense there that older generations tend to fuck things up for everybody and that kids not only suffer the most but are burdened with fixing their forebears' mistakes.

God-like powers tend to be more fun when you can actually PLAY with them. I do believe the Infamous series and Star Wars: The Force Unleashed are key examples.

Even late in "inFamous," though, you can die pretty quickly if you don't play smart. It's hard to just steamroll through a group of regular enemies.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Also I hate how everyone in VIII glances over death with no concept of mourning it. It's this Disneyland like setting that meshes badly with the immense of amount of murder and war taking place at the behest of kids trained to kill.

Replace VIII with "a large percentage of shounen/sienen manga/anime" and you've got a better idea of what genre VIII is. 16 is a typical age for Japanese literature to start at (and not just fantasy stuff either). Sometimes they start even younger (the main cast of Naruto is 16 after a four-year time-skip). And usually, the reason why people do what the do is just as important (if not more important), then what they actually did.

That isn't how it works in reality.

It used to be though, and not just in the East. Look up how old people were when they became squires and knights in Medieval Europe, or how old they were when they got married. Vikings are well worth a look at too. Being considered an adult at age 18-21 is a fairly recent development in human society.

 

[Jarlix]

As for shonen manga, the bulk of it is completely garbage and the one which most people are currently into is Shingeki no Kyojin. Most would say it's the 'only good one.' And that one deals solely with the weight and pressure of death.

Furthermore, vikings had appalling living conditions and a religion that championed heroism through murder to contend with. FFVIII is not a feudal society. There's a comfortable atheism it seems and there're no instances of absolutely needing to war for resources. Modern technology, decent health care. I can't imagine kids, without question, being ok with the chance of a comfortable life robbed from beneath their feet meaninglessly when there're people everywhere living off of the conveniences all around them. Even knights were more corrupt like you'd expect these kids to be, and they would mourn or cry over an ally defecated on a blade or in Selphie's case, friends nuked to death.

'just because' is a terrible writing excuse

The biggest instance of bullshit was Squall leaping out of a pod for Rinoa when he literally had no options for surviving, so his plot armour stepped in to have the Ragnarok spinning at an altitude perfectly befitting their arrival. Fueled up and maintained too. (edit: Also Ultimecia's motives made no sense.)

Don't be fanboys. There're a lot of inconsistencies in the plot. I'm willing to just drop the discussion and leave it to a rift in preference, which is all it really is. The plot just isn't interesting, to me. A romance like Squall's and Rinoa's shouldn't ever work out anyway at their age.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Furthermore, vikings had appalling living conditions and a religion that championed heroism through murder to contend with

Actually Vikings were one of the only cultures of its time that valued cleanliness. While Europeans were shitting in the streets, the Vikings regularly bathed and were considered bizarre because of it.

 

[Roger]

You might personally hate it, but its perfectly well tied together. Their mission involving time compression could only work with SEED that had known each other their entire lives and land together in the correct location. The orphanage plot twist was inevitable since destiny had per-ordained they all meet again for the time travel to work.

Was it really though? Ultimecia came back in time to twart her destiny of being defeated by the Legendary SeeD, she tried to destroy SeeD in the past so it couldn't exist in the future but the Legendary SeeD doesn't exist in the future, he exists in the past, her meddling allows for him to travel to her time and defeat and then come back. Moreover, she tries to figure out the true purpose of SeeD by torturing Squall, but it is Squall who travels back in time to instruct Edea to create SeeD. SeeD only exists because Ultimecia went back into the past and the reason her inevitale defeat in the future was foretolled is because the SeeDs of the past lived through it and know all about it.

The only higher powers at work here so far are Squall and Ultimecia themselves, EXCEPT for the part where 6 individuals who used to be together in an orphanage coincidentally come together again and form a group. That's the only part that tells us Ultimecia is right and destiny is out to get her rather then this just being a natural course of events involving time travel mostly of her own doing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There is certainly a sense that the hand of fate is at work in a couple of things, primarily the reunion of Squall and co. and the Ragnarok being right where it needed to be for Squall and Rinoa to survive. I can understand why those things are harder to swallow for some people than the simple fact of the time loop involving Squall meeting Edea in the past and Ultimecia engineering her own death by trying to avoid it.

It's the same reason some people hate the ending to "Battlestar Galactica." I personally have no problem with it, but I do see why some might. It's not bad writing, though. It's just a flavor not everyone agrees with.

Even knights were more corrupt like you'd expect these kids to be, and they would mourn or cry over an ally defecated on a blade or in Selphie's case, friends nuked to death.

So did Selphie (skip to 1:35):

You can also see that these kids honored their fallen comrades like soldiers or knights would.

 

[Novus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle

Is generally the answer to time travel solutions, FFVIII follows it faithfully. FFVIII is noted for its specific focus on one character, but what it does it executes well.
I notice the conversation has moved on to character development though.

C
Also I hate how everyone in VIII glances over death with no concept of mourning it. It's this Disneyland like setting that meshes badly with the immense of amount of murder and war taking place at the behest of kids trained to kill. That isn't how it works in reality.

I get the sense you haven't played the game in a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi44T9fKSDM&hd=1.
The genre of the game is arguably an epic light novel. That doesn't make it necessarily better or worse than say historical realism.

Don't be fanboys. There're a lot of inconsistencies in the plot. I'm willing to just drop the discussion and leave it to a rift in preference, which is all it really is. The plot just isn't interesting, to me. A romance like Squall's and Rinoa's shouldn't ever work out anyway at their age.

There isn't anything to drop, the discussion is fine especially when the problems you outline are core concepts to almost every FF game. The characters fit well within its established genre, the inconsistencies you listed are a part of the theme of destiny running throughout the game.

(edit: Also Ultimecia's motives made no sense.)

Her motives were explained in her final lines you get whilst slashing her to death. Really though she was a big bad to establish the idea of living in isolation and having no knight. It's melodramatic as hell yes, but fits into the thematic structure of the game and Squall's state of mind.

 

[Alex Strife]

I can see why people would hate on the whole Ragnarok being them. I mean, chances of it being there are astronomically zero. But... is it impossible? Well, no.

And while I understand realism being important... that is why it's an "epic tale" or an "adventure", right? If we take into account that whenever you're killed in a battle you just reload, this is the same principle. The Ragnarok could not have been there. But the story would not have gone as it's meant to be told.

I don't know; many people dislike FFVIII, and God knows there are things about it I dislike as well, but it was a game I enjoyed, with its storyline too, so I'm fine with that. I know nostalgia is probably playing a bigger part than I think but...

 

[Jarlix]

>only making me hate FFVIII even more

What does any of this have to do with the Noctis orgy? I'll rebunk the FF8 monster av guy so I can scare myself off of ever replaying VIII, but it'll be just this once.

FFVIII is noted for its specific focus on one character, but what it does it executes well.

Who gives a shit about him. I don't want to play as him and I don't care about his emotions. He's in a first world society with no crippling psychological issues, has a boring personality and goes 'whatever' a lot. That G don't get mindcrushed. Ramza did that right. Cloud did it great. Fei did it great. Squall doesn't emotionally transfigure in any very impressive way. A leader's responsibility isn't anywhere near on level with what Cloud had to deal with.

I get the sense you haven't played the game in a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi44T9fKSDM&hd=1.
The genre of the game is arguably an epic light novel. That doesn't make it necessarily better or worse than say historical realism.

It's the psychological realism I was questioning. And no. I do not like goofy, psychologically inaccurate light novels where the characters don't value their lives and make shitty decisions like they're somehow aware of the plot armour acting as a safety net beneath them see: Squall jumping out to save Rinoa. Better or worse is entirely perspective with art. So you don't or do like historicals, great. That's the end verdict; men decide.

I find it hard to imagine a mindful adult finding FFVIII's story tolerable let alone of any salvageable meaning beyond Rinoa and Squall fulfilling their parent's destiny, which was hardly of mindblowing relevance to the human condition. What does that even say? That's not even a philosophical parallel. It's a coincidence, like winning the lottery in a super cute way. Lovely.

Nah, I preferred Xenogears a lot more. It deserved FFVIII's budget and emotionally afflicted it's players on a deeper level. That was the cooler concept.

If it makes you feel better I'm still looking forward to XV. Shame we don't have much to speculate on story wise. I'm hoping the monster patterns will be threatening. MonHun is popular in Japan even if I haven't seen it to be a fascination of Nomura's, but big and difficult monster bosses are fresh in their cultural subconscious.

And Somnus is great.

I can see why people would hate on the whole Ragnarok being them. I mean, chances of it being there are astronomically zero. But... is it impossible? Well, no.

And while I understand realism being important... that is why it's an "epic tale" or an "adventure", right? If we take into account that whenever you're killed in a battle you just reload, this is the same principle. The Ragnarok could not have been there. But the story would not have gone as it's meant to be told.

I don't know; many people dislike FFVIII, and God knows there are things about it I dislike as well, but it was a game I enjoyed, with its storyline too, so I'm fine with that. I know nostalgia is probably playing a bigger part than I think but...

Man enjoy what you want. At least you're not shoving it down my throat.

And yeah the Ragnarok stuff was hilarious.

@the selphie thing. Didn't basketball court cheeriness ensue after? But that is a start, yes.

If there is one thing I liked, it was Squall's paranoia about dying and being objectified in the memories of people who remembered him. That's like, about it.

Actually Vikings were one of the only cultures of its time that valued cleanliness. While Europeans were shitting in the streets, the Vikings regularly bathed and were considered bizarre because of it.

Most of society before recently had appalling living conditions by today's standards, which are uncomfortably close to VIII's. But bathing does give them a leg up.

vikings were generally awesome

ps. I think the rest of the cast were pretty awesome. I wish I could've played as Laguna.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Squall doesn't emotionally transfigure in any very impressive way. A leader's responsibility isn't anywhere near on level with what Cloud had to deal with.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "responsibility" and what Cloud had to deal with?

And no. I do not like goofy, psychologically inaccurate light novels where the characters don't value their lives and make shitty decisions like they're somehow aware of the plot armour acting as a safety net beneath them see: Squall jumping out to save Rinoa.

I think you may have misunderstood what Squall was doing there. He didn't expect either of them to survive. He was just trying to get to her. If only to be with her when she/they died.

 

[Farron]

Also, FFVIII haters can rot in a Malboro's stomach for all I care.

I thought that FF VIII was the cat's pajamas. Though I can understand why some would have issues and problems with it, with a confusing plot and confusing Junction system.

And Rinoa is either somebody who love or somebody who just can't stand. I've seen fans either admire her or bash her like a hammer.

If you don't like the junction system, like the plot or like Rinoa. Then FF VIII just fails for you.

Final Fantasy VIII is a contender for my favorite Final Fantasy, but if somebody hates it imo it's easy to understand why.

 

[Flintlock]

Time to split the Final Fantasy VIII discussion into a new thread, perhaps?

 

[Unlucky]

I lol @ thread title

 

[Fangu]

I want to play VIII now, I like stuff that makes people passionate

 

[Alex Strife]

Wait till you're done with XII, missy!!

Love your new name .

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Eh... For me, Squall and Rinoa finding the Ragnarok was about as realistic as Gollem and Bilbo finding the One Ring after it had been lost for however many centuries.

 

[Farron]

Eh... For me, Squall and Rinoa finding the Ragnarok was about as realistic as Gollem and Bilbo finding the One Ring after it had been lost for however many centuries.

Funny that because last time I checked this game is called Final FANTASY 8 no ?

The whole Ragnarok in space was explained pretty well by Laguna in Esthar, so I don't understand why some fans hate it. Maybe at FIRST, it's a bit odd but not after playing and Laguna clearing up everything.

 

[Lex]

I think the point Obs was making was that the realism of that moment doesn't impact the story in a negative way quite as hard as people seem to think it does. And I agree

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Pretty much. I mean, the plot of LOTR calls for Gollem and Bilbo to find the ring and nobody talks about how improbable that is. The plot of VIII calls for Squall and Rinoa to find one of the three Ragnaroks that were used to put Adel into space.

Just about every story calls for coincidences, so I don't see the point of saying that some coincidences are more realistic then others.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it's not like space shat out a space ship because it was thinking, "Crap, the main characters are about to die!" I can see this scenario playing out:

Space: "We need more oxygen or -- a ship! Yes, send out a ship!"
Planet: "You can't just do that! Storytelling doesn't work that way!"
Space: "I'll take the heat! Just do it!"
Planet: "But it'll ruin everything! We haven't established that there's a ship out there, and it's not like we have a way of 'flashing back' to earlier events to expl -- ohhhhh."
Space: "... I hate working with you sometimes."

 

[Unlucky]

Haven't gotten that far in the game yet because admittedly I'm not a big fan of VIII (at this point I think hate is too strong a word-- I merely lost interest). But I'm planning to finish it someday ..

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't care for VIII. The draw system is tedious as all get-out. Junction is neat, but complicated and kinda soured by the whole draw thing. Yeah I don't care so much about the Ragnarok thing, but the orphanage plot twist is really really stupid (and rather unnecessary). The world is pretty anachronistic as well, but that's pretty part and parcel with Final Fantasy.

I think, when all is said and done it's that I just don't like any of the characters. I think the biggest reason I love VII as much as I do is because I like the whole cast (Cait Sith = Reeve), I can't say that about any other FF. But VIII I don't like one! Squall - well his issues are well documented, Zell is unimportant, Rinoa is really annoying, Irvine is promising but is an unfunny flirt with two really annoying scenes, Selphie is certifiably batshit, and Quistis is the most likable but her early interactions with Squall diminish her coolness.

The story even engages me until about the third disk, then everything just unravels. The music is fantastic, the whole endgame sequence is very cool. It's just...the cast and Draw


What is annoying though (no one here's done it), is I see all the time people say that VIII gets a lot of hate simply because it wasn't VII. That's bullshit, VII was my first, and then I played Tactics and IX before VIII, and I adore both of those other games - and they're both most certainly not VII.