Forceful conscription?

[Cat Rage Room]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ5AbLI5Dpw&feature=related

This Ep. of Before Crisis sort of...bothers me. How did Shinra get away with FORCING tons of people to join SOLDIER? I mean, I know how they got away with it (they're Shinra of course), but how can you FORCE someone to join your military and take orders for your cause when they really, really don't want to? Especially given when those same people are supersoldiers? Isn't that really stupid and a good way to sow the seeds of rebellion?

 

[randomtology]

Yeah, I'd say that is probably the most disturbing episode of BC that I can recall. Nothing like human trafficking to remind a person how evil a corporation is.

As for how they would get them to cooperate, I'm guessing it's like a much harsher version of the draft. And since they even said most of them won't make it to SOLDIER, maybe they get rid of the most potentially rebellious or just send them off to Deepground? I also notice that they seemed to go after criminals in this chapter which...I don't know if that's the Turks way of making themselves feel better or just so no one will really bitch about them clearing out entire clubs of people.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree. It's always bothered me, too. Especially since all the enlisted SOLDIERS in the Compilation (Essai, Sebastian, Zack, Kunsel, Luxiere, etc...) are pretty enthusiastic and ambitious, and proud of themselves. None of them give the impression they were press-ganged. I mean, poor Cloud can't even get in, and then they go around collecting the dregs from the bars of the Costa del Sol? Given the state of their world's economy, and the number of unemployed wandering around in FFVII, you'd think young men would be queuing up to enlist. But filling out recruitment paperwork makes for less interesting gameplay than a fight club brawl. You've probably also noticed that every episode of BC presents the player with a moral dilemma (of sorts), because living with a compromised conscience is the essence of being a Turk.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just goes to show that as Lazard said, there's a "darkness" of Shinra, not many people are aware of. People need to remember who Shinra was. This was not a good company at all. They were quite an evil corporation, no matter how neutral, or good some of the individuals in the company were. Shinra Company did some terrible acts.

Don't forget that most of Deepground were conscripted as well. No one really volunteered for Deepground SOLDIER either.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

No I mean, it doesn't BOTHER me as in "Wow, that's EVIL." I know Shinra is basically a piece of shit. I mean, it logically bothers me. How could you force someone, much less a whole bunch of people, into being supersoldiers? It sounds like a good way to make whole bunch of Sephiroth/Genesis type of rebellions.

Deepground is sort of different since they were all sealed underground.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

How could you force someone, much less a whole bunch of people, into being supersoldiers? It sounds like a good way to make whole bunch of Sephiroth/Genesis type of rebellions.

That's a good question, come to think of it... I guess brainwashing is probably ruled out as well, because you're supposed to be mentally strong in order to withstand Jenova to become a SOLDIER, right? Unless they had VERY strong brainwashing techniques.

Either that, or the Turks trawled places like the fight club with the intention of finding exceptionally strong people who wanted money and/or recognition, and didn't mind fighting for it. If such a candidate passed, they'd just offer him lots and lots of money(?) to work in SOLDIER -and if he refused it, they'd probably just kill him off.

Perhaps, though, the kidnapped SOLDIER candidates would only be used in the Deepground project?

Spoiler

Regarding Shelke and Azul - they were both "forced" into Deepground SOLDIER, weren't they? Do we know of anyone else who was kidnapped and forced into SOLDIER?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

As far as I'm aware, Azul is the only one mentioned by name in the BC episode M.O.G. is referring to. And Azul chooses to proceed with the SOLDIER recruitment program because he wants to be as strong as the player Turk.
It's true, you really can't make an elite corps out of unwllling conscripts. And there's just no way Zack was brainwashed. The whole episode strikes me as more of a poorly-thought-out piece of story-writing on Square Enix's part than anything else. Is that heresy?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Conscription has happened throughout world history. It's not illogical at all. And eventually they either come to terms with their role or they're killed.

I think you are missing what the underlying point of this episode is. These aren't ordinary people who are going to SOLDIER. That's a lie the Turks are unaware of. These SOLDIERs are really recruits who will get tossed into Deepground. Where eventually they'll either submit to Shinra or get killed.

Those who joined SOLDIER sometimes didn't make it, and never even were heard from again. They got sent to Deepground too.

 

[OWA-2]

Well, going by the fact Shinra is able to implant micro-chips on people's brains to keep them under control, I don't see a logical problem with the forced recruitment.
Shinra have effective ways of keeping people under control.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Conscription has happened throughout world history. It's not illogical at all. And eventually they either come to terms with their role or they're killed.

Yes, this is true, but that applies to footsoldiers who are more or less disposable anyway. Throughout history, conscription has been applied, but history has also proven that FORCED conscription usually results in rebellion, lack of discipline, lack in quality of soldiers compared to a volunteer force, and it's generally not effective for training special forces.

It's one thing to make a mandatory "Everyone has to serve in the military at 18 years old" like a lot of real life forces do, or conscripting young poor kids (which Shinra sort of did), but kidnapping grown men and forcing them to do something they have no intention of doing, in a specialized, elite force is sort of...inefficient. What would Shinra would have done if they all rebelled or all went "Go ahead kill us we don't care."

The more I look at it, it seems that Deepground was a giant failure and a waste of money on Shinra's part.

 

[Max Payne]

I think MOG is saying, that they're sowing the seeds of a SUPER SOLDIER rebellion.

It's one thing if it's a few soldiers that want to rebel, but not when they're all genetically enhanced killing machines.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Especially given that Shinra has a history of their most powerful agents working against them.

 

[randomtology]

Has anyone seen the movie or read the book 1984? Well in it, there were several people who were against the society, including the protagonist. However after he's captured they spend weeks to months torturing him in various ways until he finally submits and embraces the society. After that, there is no point in watching him because he is a lover of Big Brother and the dystopia that the book takes place in.

It is possible that their way of submission could lie along those lines. Not to mention, I bet most of the forced recruits are put into Deepground where there is virtually no escape. However the Turks are none the wiser because they can always be told "Oh they didn't make the cut".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, but you don't get SOLDIERs like Zack if you do that. Zack couldn't wait to sign up. Cloud, equally keen, was rejected. I always got the impression that it was hard to get into SOLDIER and many people were rejected. Also, repeating my point above, there was plenty of unemployment and young men would have been eager to get accepted into an elite military organisation.

I agree that the Turks might have, unbeknownst to them, been scouting candidates for Deepground. But I still agree with MOG that it makes no logical sense, in view of everything else that's said about SOLDIER, the celebrity hero status of Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal, and the quality of the men whom we see as SOLDIERs, to think that anyone was press-ganged into joining. I know forced recruitment has happened throughout history, and I'm sure plenty of people were forced into the regular army, and a couple were given an offer they couldn't refuse to join the Turks. But SOLDIER... no, you have to want it. And why wouldn't young boys want it?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think MOG is saying, that they're sowing the seeds of a SUPER SOLDIER rebellion.

It's one thing if it's a few soldiers that want to rebel, but not when they're all genetically enhanced killing machines.

That's exactly what fucking happened.

agree that the Turks might have, unbeknownst to them, been scouting candidates for Deepground. But I still agree with MOG that it makes no logical sense, in view of everything else that's said about SOLDIER, the celebrity hero status of Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal, and the quality of the men whom we see as SOLDIERs, to think that anyone was press-ganged into joining. I know forced recruitment has happened throughout history, and I'm sure plenty of people were forced into the regular army, and a couple were given an offer they couldn't refuse to join the Turks. But SOLDIER... no, you have to want it. And why wouldn't young boys want it?

You're missing the point. No one got forced into SOLDIER. That's a lie. Every single candidate that was forced into SOLDIER appears in Deepground as a DG SOLDIER. It's a front. See the opening of DC's multiplayer mode, and the entry on SOLDIER in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. When they "conscript" you, they're really just getting more people to go play underground.

And yeah, they eventually revolted but couldn't get out due to Meteorfall.

 

[Max Payne]

That's exactly what fucking happened.

Uh, no shit?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then stop posting.

 

[Max Payne]

What? You were the one that seemed to misunderstand what the man was getting at.

You stop posting.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What? You were the one that seemed to misunderstand what the man was getting at.

You stop posting.

No u.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's exactly what fucking happened.



You're missing the point. No one got forced into SOLDIER. That's a lie. Every single candidate that was forced into SOLDIER appears in Deepground as a DG SOLDIER. It's a front. See the opening of DC's multiplayer mode, and the entry on SOLDIER in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. When they "conscript" you, they're really just getting more people to go play underground.

And yeah, they eventually revolted but couldn't get out due to Meteorfall.

Thanks for explaining that. I haven't played DoC and don't own the Ultimania, so this was something I didn't know. The episode makes more sense now.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You're missing the point. No one got forced into SOLDIER. That's a lie. Every single candidate that was forced into SOLDIER appears in Deepground as a DG SOLDIER.

Huh. I didn't put two and two together like that. It makes sense! I mean, why would they kidnap you and still let you run around the surface as a super soldier?

What gets me though is this; they were kidnapped because SOLDIER needed more to fill in their ranks, but did Deepground soldiers ever see actual combat before DoC?

 

[S and G]

Huh. I didn't put two and two together like that. It makes sense! I mean, why would they kidnap you and still let you run around the surface as a super soldier?

What gets me though is this; they were kidnapped because SOLDIER needed more to fill in their ranks, but did Deepground soldiers ever see actual combat before DoC?

During the Wutai War, DG SOLDIERs were used to covertly rescue wounded SOLDIERs and bring them back to the infirmary at DG. Some training missions also take place outside DG, but the majority are in a VR chamber.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

To the OP, I can see your logic, but I'm going to have to disagree.

There are several countries that have mandatory military service. There is also the draft. While neither is as extreme as what Shinra does, it proves that you can force someone to fight for your cause.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I know, but if I was forcing people to join the army, I wouldn't make them super soldiers in the process. It's easy to say "here, you're forced to fight in the army, have fun. Also if you ever rebel we'll shoot you because you ain't shit."

That's different than: "Here, you're forced to fight in the army, have fun. We'll also give you a procedure that makes you stronger than a good chunk of anyone else walking the earth, including our military forces. Gee, I hope you don't change your mind about this!"

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'd go one further and say that SOLDIER in general was kind of a dumb idea. Look at it this way, in most fictional worlds where a large corporation or government has outstandingly powerful forces, their leaders are in turn even stronger than them. Naraku from Inuyasha can curbstomp his underlings, the leaders of Chronos from Guyver can curbstomp their zoanoid soldiers, etc etc. But President Shinra cannot hope to survive a confrontation with a member of SOLDIER, nor can any of the other execs in a fight. Conscripted or otherwise, if a SOLDIER decides to rebel against Shinra... well we've all seen what happens when they do that eh? The lesson any evil overlord types should learn from Shinra is simple: Don't make your underlings stronger than you can make yourself.