Forceful conscription?

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
That...doesn't really make any sense, though. Sure, it's cool to have a Authority Equals Asskicking thing going on, and it works in very specific scenarios, but even in a fictional world, if you're going for any semblance of realism, there's more to leadership and running an organization than knowing how to fight. There's logistics, funding, charisma, organization, etc etc. If someone is going to kill Shinra and expect to run shit in his place, he better damn make sure he knows how to do something better than use a sword or whatever.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I agree with that, just having power and skill as a fighter isn't enough to run shit. The examples I gave all have charisma, intelligence, etc, they are all capable of running their various organizations. But they also made themselves capable of protecting themselves from their underlings. What I'm saying here is basically that the Shinra folk should have tried to do the same. But then, who knows, maybe they were afraid of getting Mako poisoning, or perhaps President Shinra was just too lazy or something.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
So, in the end, it comes down to whether or not you can control (or at least think you can control) your army.

To be fair, they did for about 25 years.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
True, and I do see your point. The people who hand down orders to our real life military, including special forces like Navy Seals and Marine Force Recon, are usually not the type of folks you'd expect to be able to hold their own in a fight with those forces one on one or otherwise, so I concede that my point before wasn't entirely logical. When Genesis went off the farm, Shinra did what a real world political power would do in equivalent circumstances: send other special forces/intelligence units that were still loyal to take care of the problem.
 
Maybe Hojo (who as we all know is not the best scientist around) thought that immersing them in mako/giving them the 'operation' would do something to their minds that would make them easy to control. SOLDIER stay surprisingly loyal to Shinra for a long time - I mean, the stuff that happened to them to make them turn against Shinra was huge and very, very personal, and even then (as far as I can remember) Angeal intended for a long time to come back to Shinra once he'd rescued Genesis.

But maybe President Shinra IS just stupid - or else very naive, very obtuse, and with a very trusting faith in human nature. How stupid do you have to be to put your own embittered and angry bastard son in charge of your unstoppable super soldiers?
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
I'm not sure I would say Shinra is "stupid," but he was certainly too proud for his own good. He had nads of steel proverbially telling AVALANCH to go fuck themselves when they threatened his life, but when they got through the Turks, that didn't seem like such a great idea.

As for Hojo, how is he "not the best scientist around"? The message I was getting from the game is that the only reason Gast was considered greater is because he had ethics. All things considered, Hojo did more groundbreaking research than any other scientist in the game.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
It's not implied he knew who Lazard was as far as I'm aware.

He didn't? I thought the very reason why he advanced in the ranks so fast was because he was his son.

I mean, everyone else could tell. People tend to know who their kids are.
 
As for Hojo, how is he "not the best scientist around"? The message I was getting from the game is that the only reason Gast was considered greater is because he had ethics. All things considered, Hojo did more groundbreaking research than any other scientist in the game.

"Even now it pains me that I had so little scientific sense..." or something along those lines.

What groundbreaking research did he do? Gast was still head of the Science Department during Projects S and G; I always got the impression they were his brainchild and that Hollander and Hojo were competing under him. Isn't Hojo really more like Mengele, tinkering around with people's bodies in various nasty ways, but not actually coming up with anything very useful? However, am always happy to be shown the error of my thinking if thinking is in error.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I'd say Hojo was a talented scientist in that he did indeed get results, and a bad scientist in that he never seemed to give much of a shit what needed done in order to get those results. He also never seemed to stop and consider how horribly experiments could backfire on him, for instance:

Hojo: Sure I knocked up this girl that the Turk kid was crushing on, injected her with cells from a tenacley monstrosity we think is an Ancient for no good reason, and then shot him when he got upset about it... but hey, let's make him super-human and able to transform into monsters!

Lab assistant: Sir, if he survives that won't he be uniquely suited to brutally murder you with these new powers?

Hojo: But its for SCIENCE!

Lab assistant: But...

Hojo SCIENCE!!!
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
Shinra has a funny way of acting towards his kids. Maybe he did know & treated Lazard something like Rufus. Whether that's an "I'm terrible at showing affection" or "come & get me, if you can," I have no fucking clue.

Gast was the head of the science department, but that doesn't really mean he did anything. I mean, let's face it, executives tend to do quite a bit of sitting on their asses & ordering around underlings. From what we see, Hojo & Hollander do all of the work. They even end up being held responsible for the success or failure of their projects.

Another way to think about it is that, if Sephiroth is about 30 years old & Aerith is 22 years old, then for nearly 2 decades, Hojo was responsible for all of the scientific work that went on, & we know that a lot of advancements in SOLDIER & other areas took place. He was especially competent in bio-engineering, even to the point where he had a machine that could fuse things on the genetic level.

I can't really point to anything for sure & say, "He invented it," but he did seem to know his shit. I can't point to a single experiment of his that really didn't acheive a desired result.

In response to his shortsightedness, I would argue that, like any good mad scientist, Hojo always saved some of his experiments to power up himself, when he needed it.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
It seems that everyone within the game, though, refers to Gast as the better scientist, for whatever reason. I can't blame you for using in game examples towards Hojo's accomplishments, but I figure that whatever Gast did topped Hojo's work, for him to get the recognition that he did. The "Everyone in the games universe must be wrong about Gast they're retarded" explanation doesn't really fit.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
He didn't? I thought the very reason why he advanced in the ranks so fast was because he was his son.

I mean, everyone else could tell. People tend to know who their kids are.

Maybe that was the reason. At the least, the public definitely didn't know. That President Shinra had an illegitimate child was a rumor they knew of, but it was never public that Lazard was his son.

LicoriceAllsorts said:
What groundbreaking research did he do? Gast was still head of the Science Department during Projects S and G; I always got the impression they were his brainchild and that Hollander and Hojo were competing under him.

In the original game, that's how it was presented -- the JENOVA Project was Gast's and everybody else assisted him. Hojo said so. The Ultimania Omega said so. Then Crisis Core brought along one of its most retarded retcons, where Gast did nothing:

Project S and Project G began at roughly the same time. They were lead by Hojo and Hollander respectively, and the department head Gast has little participation in either project.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
Maybe that was the reason. At the least, the public definitely didn't know. That President Shinra had an illegitimate child was a rumor they knew of, but it was never public that Lazard was his son.



In the original game, that's how it was presented -- the JENOVA Project was Gast's and everybody else assisted him. Hojo said so. The Ultimania Omega said so. Then Crisis Core brought along one of its most retarded retcons, where Gast did nothing:

Meh. You'd think in a prequel they'd focus on people like Gast, who were really important in the past. But nope. "Let's retcon Gast's involvement and bring in a random new scientist who we have never heard of before!"
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
Honestly, I don't think the assertion that Gast is better because he has a sense of ethics is so unbelievable. It's like "good guys always win" a few times removed.

Either way, it appears to be informed ability.

As for that "retcon," I've been meaning to comment on that. I don't think it's a contradiction at all. Gast didn't appear in the flashbacks to Nibelheim even in the original game. He is the department head, yes. The projects were overseen by him & probably his brainchild, yes. They were a direct result of his research, yes. But he does not seem to personally have much involvement in either of them.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Actually, Gast is there in Vincent's flashback from Lucrecia's cave. You see him with Lucrecia, Hojo and Gast entering the Shinra Mansion.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
Regardless, the point is that it's really not a contradiction. Even though Gast is the head of the 2 projects, he doesn't really have much personal involvement in either of them.
 
Isn't that the way real science departments work? The guy in charge has the big idea, lets his underlings do all the legwork, sets them in competition with each other (results = promotion/tenure) and then takes the credit for their discoveries?
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I got the impression from the original game that most of the work on the Jenova Project was done by Gast himself, with Hojo more as an assistant and Lucrecia as an assistant's assistant of sorts. Other games have sort of ruined this image for me, but I still remember one line of Hojo's from the OG that gave me that impression.

Hojo: I even went so far as to offer my own child to Gast's Jenova Project.

Forgive me if the wording is off, or if I've mis-attributed this line from someone else or a different game, its been a while. But to me it sounded like Hojo was directly saying that Gast had the idea to infuse a fetus with J-cells, and he had offered the child in Lucrecia's womb.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Yeah, EG, the line was "I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project" -- and then the Ultimania Omega even said (pg. 210) that Gast was in charge of the project in Nibelheim until he gtfo, regretting using Lucrecia and her child as experiments.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
That's the one, I was relatively close in terms of accuracy. And yeah, that speaks of direct involvement to me.
 
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