Game of Thrones

[Fangu]

Spoiler: s8e03

I read they already knew in season 2. I guess there will be more interviews and background material about this later. Anyway I have no problem imagining this to be GRRMs original intent, so if anything is lacking, it's the execution (and by that I mean the storytelling over several seasons, not just the last episode).

 

[Lex]

Also (spoilers obvs):

 

[Fangu]

^ haha, they're out, cool. Gonna watch them later today.

Oh, and also

Spoiler: contd from my last post

GRRM is known for subverting fantasy tropes. We expect Jon Snow to be the big hero because that's how the story is built up according to fantasy storytelling, but this is GoT/SOIAF - you rarely get what you expect. The series wouldn't be so full of fan theories if it wasn't for all the red herrings it places and the unconventional stuff it does. (Azor Ahai = Red herring. Fairly sure. Even the name is kinda ridiculous!)

Personally I'm a little sad to see that the theory 'my Night King is not stupid' turning into 'my Night King really is stupid', but it makes sense that he would be so drawn to Bran he'd take the risk of going back to a (the?) weirwood tree where he was made. I think it was Alt Shift X who pointed out in his last video that what makes a human in GoT/ASOIAF is having memories - all kinds of them. The opposite of being human/alive is dead, and having no memories. The Night King wants to end all memories (= destroy all humans) basically (as explained somewhat in e2) which is why he goes after Bran/ has gone after all the Three Eyed Ravens (though there has only been one previous TER (actually Three Eyed Crow) mentioned in the books.)

Soo I'm torn between was he just another Bad Guy, or just a slightly deconstructed Bad Guy? I'm leaning towards the latter. The Night King isn't literally their enemy (although he is... lol), it's more of a metaphor for survival and (trying to) stay(ing) human.

 

[Philco]

Spoiler

I was almost disappointed that more people didn't die this episode, just cos we kept getting shots of all the main characters being swarmed upon but then 5 minutes later they're somehow still on their feet and fighting ! Suspension of disbelief faded fast.

And nevermind Arya killing the Night King. The most badass moment goes to Lyanna Mormont

 

[trash panda]

I HAD SUCH A TIME AVOIDING THE SPOILER TAGS IN THIS THRAD OMG!

With that being said, I’m not disappointed in any way whateoever.

Spoiler: lots of spoilers

The episode was hard for me to see, even with all the lights off, but that didn't ruin the experience. I think it helped with the setting. I couldn't really see who was dying in some scenes. Is Rhaegal gone?? Worst character death for me was probably Theon or Jorah.

I had no problem with Arya being the one to take out the NK. Wasn't expecting it at all. When he caught her by the neck, I thought she was going to be the most major character death in the episode. I actually thought she was going to die. I was quivering on my couch. Haha.

I did think the battle with the NK and his army ended sort of abruptly at first thought, considering that we're just three episodes in, but that's not really true. This has been mounting since literally episode 1 of season 1 and we've actually seen plenty of conflict between nightwalkers/wights/the NK himself/and humans. Plus this conflict had to end in order for the focus to return to the iron throne and the conflict with Cersei.

Am so excited!!!

 

[Cthulhu]

Non-spoiler: We had a pirated copy (beacause off course) but between a lot of compression algorithms and vagueness - I guess the algorithms don't do fog, smoke and darkness very well - and the darkness it was hard to make out. I mean I get it, the darkness helps them limit expenses (I looked it up yesterday, the whole season has a $90 million budget - high, but not infinite), but still.

Also I made the Mistake of going on reddit yesterday morning and basically had the climax spoiled by a meme :/.

Spoiler: S08E03 random musings and shit

It felt a bit like an anticlimax that the NK's defeat triggered the defeat of the whole thing. Yes it was satisfying and shit, but, is that it? Can't be that easy? That lvl shit.

I'm really wondering what they're going to do with the rest of the series now. The lame predictable one is that they defeat Cersei in another major battle - but smaller scale than this one beacause budget, plus err, a lot of people died lol - or she gets murdered by e.g. Arya (green eyes AMIRITE?), then Dany & Jon become king and queen and shit is happily ever after. That is the predictable ending, but the series started out as breaking with predictability and tropes, exemplified by just killing off the only good guy in the series at the end of S1.

I also Want the books to come out. I read somewhere yesterday that while the series went into a thematically similar direction to where the books will go, according to plan, but it may differ in some areas to surprise the readers. I am Curious.

I also hope the books explain and go into detail about a lot of things.

I was also expecting Nymeria's pack to do a Gandalf and save the day at the last moment, especially with Bran being out err, flying around with ravens for most of the episode. (another fan theory / meme: Arya was carried in by ravens controlled by Bran, lolol)

 

[Gary Caelum]

I just realised that they didn't know Melisandre was going to turn up at all.

Which means their LEGIT battle plan was to have the Dothraki just.............charge into the darkness.

 

[Fangu]

^

Spoiler: s8e03

Technically they didn't send them in until she'd lit their swords

Also, they didn't expect the darkness. It was a full moon. And I've heard it was not uncommon in medieval time to send in the cavalry first.

That being said, I'm pretty sure they mostly did it to set up that moment of 'oh shit'. Before the lights go out, we expect this to be a somewhat even fight with enemies we have seen and know. And then they set it up with the 'you can't see the monster' scary thing.

But I was thinking the same thing, 'y they do that'. I thought they were going to hold back and wait.

Spoiler: Speaking wtfs...

My biggest wtfs of this episode:

* How is Sam still alive
* Was that really dead Starks coming out of their graves? The crypt is for members of the Stark house only, afaik.
* They didn't have to downplay Jon's role in killing the Night King like they did... they could have made his "Go!" more obvious, but making it seem like he was shouting it to himself for being paralysed about fighting dead!Viserion
* The hell was Bran doing varging into the ravens... was it to lure in the Night King? Wasn't really clear imo
* ...why am I still obsessing over this episode

 

[Gary Caelum]

^

Spoiler: s8e03

Technically they didn't send them in until she'd lit their swords

Also, they didn't expect the darkness. It was a full moon. And I've heard it was not uncommon in medieval time to send in the cavalry first.

Spoiler

Yes but they obviously made the battle plans before she'd arrived. They didn't change their entire plans just because of the flaming swords, did they? That would be really bad for a battle to just decide new things on the spot.

I dunno about a full moon, but they definitely expected darkness. In episode 2, Tormund says "they'll be here before the dawn", which Jon acknowledges and obviously they arrange their armies ready for it.

^

Spoiler: Speaking wtfs...

* They didn't have to downplay Jon's role in killing the Night King like they did... they could have made his "Go!" more obvious, but making it seem like he was shouting it to himself for being paralysed about fighting dead!Viserion

Spoiler

I'm aware this is a theory of what happened there. But I don't know if this is necessarily a fact. I just assumed Jon was screaming at the dragon for the sake of being brave and thinking he'd run out of options?
I didn't see any clear evidence that he knew Arya was trying to get through.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Holy crap, more happened in that episode than happened in the battle of winterfell!

Mughghgh.

Thoughts:

Spoiler

-Dragon dying makes me so sad, more than any of the people. Although frankly they should've been more prepared. Going back to Dragonstone was a really obvious move, and they already know Cersei had those ballistas. I'd guessed Cersei would've set some traps at Dragonstone, or maybe have some assassins waiting. Didn't guess the dragon would die though.

-They've done a great job of recapturing the essence of GoT again, after the black and white good/evil of the northern battle. I have no idea who I even want to win now. Frankly they're all twats. I definitely want Cersei to die though.

-I've never been on 'Team Dany" in the slightest because her lust for power is a bit creepy, but nearly everyone conspiring against her is completely unfair. Sansa has no real criticism of her except for highschool bitchiness and out-group prejudice. Tyrion and Varys are really unreliable supporters and are willing to cast her as crazy even though she's responding with completely normal level of vengeance for saying 3 of her closest friends/creatures have died within a few days. Especially in a world where everyone responds with vengeance.

-The expectation that she could win without killing civilians is pie-in-the-sky utopian silliness in a world of medieval warfare. Of course civilians are gonna die. Her only remaining plans are to either lay siege to the city walls with trebuchets that have a longer range than the ballistas, or to attack the city at night on Drogon so they can't see her coming, and hope to do enough damage before she gets shot down.

-Cleganebowl is 95% guaranteed!

-There was a massive plot hole at the end here (unless it's resolved in the next episode). Cersei told Euron she was pregnant with his child (even though it's Jaimes). But they had sex while the battle for winterfell was happening. So Tyrion wouldn't know about that, and you can't see it in her appearance yet. Yet he mentions it at the very end when they're negotiating. Euron should surely then demand "How the hell does he know about that?". Either he will say that in the next episode, or that's a big discontinuity.

 

[Shademp]

Spoiler: S8E04 spoilers

My favorite part was when Jon said to Bran "you tell them" and Bran is all like "WTF?! You expect me to...DO something?!?! I'M THE FUCKING THREE-EYED RAVEN I DON'T DO THINGS! "

Cersei told Euron she was pregnant with his child (even though it's Jaimes). But they had sex while the battle for winterfell was happening. So Tyrion wouldn't know about that, and you can't see it in her appearance yet. Yet he mentions it at the very end when they're negotiating. Euron should surely then demand "How the hell does he know about that?". Either he will say that in the next episode, or that's a big discontinuity.

Cersei revealed her pregnancy to Tyrion in season 7. Many assumed she was lying, but when Jaime came to Winterfell earlier in season 8 he confirmed that she didn't lie. So Tyrion knowing is not a surprise. But you're right that from Euron's point-of-view, Tyrion shouldn't know. Hopefully the next episode shows that Euron's flags against Cersei are being raised.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Spoiler: S8E04 spoilers

My favorite part was when Jon said to Bran "you tell them" and Bran is all like "WTF?! You expect me to...DO something?!?! I'M THE FUCKING THREE-EYED RAVEN I DON'T DO THINGS! "

Cersei revealed her pregnancy to Tyrion in season 7. Many assumed she was lying, but when Jaime came to Winterfell earlier in season 8 he confirmed that she didn't lie. So Tyrion knowing is not a surprise. But you're right that from Euron's point-of-view, Tyrion shouldn't know. Hopefully the next episode shows that Euron's flags against Cersei are being raised.

Spoiler

He got Bran to tell them because Danerys asked him to promise not to tell anyone. So he technically lived up to that. Very sly

And yes, I know Tyrion knowing is correct. I was talking purely about Euron's point of view. No-one should know who left before they'd even had sex. So he should've immediately reacted to that. Yet he stayed silent and didn't seem to react.

 

[trash panda]

Spoiler

Well...Qyburn knows about Cersei's pregnancy and Tyrion just spoke to Qyburn before confronting Cersei, so....maybe Euron isn't surprised because Qyburn could have easily passed that info on to Tyrion moments before...?

 

[trash panda]

So I knew the contents of episode 4 because fucking Facebook ads ruined all the big moments, but I still

Spoiler

was fucking devastated when I saw Rhaegal die. I knew it was going to happen, not just because of spoilers but because Dany is so fecking power hungry right now and she’s pushing her army/dragons to their limits. Like, your baby has a literal hole in him and he’s limping and you make him get up and go anyway. Wtf.

I’m starting to suspect her house of the undying vision will come to fruition. I think before she ever touches the iron throne, she’s going to be reunited with Drogo and her son. I.e. she gon’ die.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Spoiler

What's a bit dumb is the fact they have essentially 2 different omniscient information sources and aren't using them at all. Bran's visions and warging crows. And Varys' supposed information network.
They could surely just ask them both before they do anything: Where are the enemy fleets/armies right now?
Kinda helpful information.

 

[trash panda]

Spoiler

It would be super helpful for him to use his warg powers, wouldn't it. I thought for sure he might dragon warg at some point. Haha. Bran actually has the potential to be a super overpowered god mode character, which, IMO is super boring anyway.

I think Bran is already playing a pivotal roll just by knowing what needs to be done in order for all the conflict in the realm to dissipate. Being that he knows all of history, and possibly the future as well, he has to make sure that things line up in exactly the right way in order to reach the best outcome. He knows how dangerous it is to manipulate timelines (remember how Hodor became Hodor). And he knows that certain tragic scenarios have to pan out in order for specific conclusions to be reached. He could very easily influence events that happened in his own life and possibly avoid being chucked out a window, but as he said to Theon, some things need to happen. Sansa reiterates this point when she tells Clegane she had to experience tragedy or else she'd still be a helpless little bird.

I think he's just being extra cautious about how he influences the course of history. IIRC, he gave Arya the blade she eventually killed the NK with, so it seems like he knows exactly what roll he plays and how to effectively contribute to historical outcomes in a way that doesn't cause the whole historical tapestry to start pilling.

Yeah, I think he knows what he's doing. Even if it seems like he isn't making any noticeable contributions, I'm sure he is. If something needed to change at a specific moment in time, I'm sure he would act accordingly if and when possible, like he did when he gave Arya that blade. Maybe using his powers to prevent certain present-day tragedies would have a negative impact on the brighter future he's aiming for.

Also, I'm predicting that

Spoiler

Cersei will kill Jamie or allow him to die somehow? Maggy the Frog's prophecy has mostly come true, all except for the part where her younger brother is supposed to kill her. And Cersei likes to nip things in the bud, doesn't she.

 

[Gary Caelum]

I don't think it counts as a prophecy if you can just choose to change the parts you dislike.

 

[trash panda]

Spoiler

Well what I mean is, if Bran is like a Dr. Strange character who can see many potential outcomes, maybe he's doing what needs to be done in order for any number of good outcomes to arise. You know? I don't necessarily think he's pursuing one specific prophetic ending. Plus, every character on the show is constantly influencing the course of history, and we have sort of a butterfly effect going on. So Bran probably has to like continuously weigh the options. I'd be sitting there with a constipated look on my face too if I were him.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Yeah that could be true for Bran, but I meant the Jaime and Cersei thing. Don't see how they could do that really.

 

[trash panda]

Oh, durrr.

Spoiler

So regarding Maggy's prophecy about Cersei...

Okay, I know we're talking about a fictional universe, but I'm still going to get technical.
When it comes to GOT (or ASOIAF), the storyline is influenced by actual historical events (magic and dragons aside). Therefore, I like to think that prophecy is 100% subjective, open to interpretation, and guided to fruition by the influence of men (as opposed to divine intervention or inescapable fate). What I'm trying to say is that prophecies are poppycock, even in GOT. The characters in this story interpret information retrospectively and find ways to make current day events meet the criteria for the prophecies that exist in within their cultures.

Characters like Cersei (or even Dany) often allow or readily work towards the fulfillment of their own personal prophecies, even when the prospective outcome is tragic. Cersei's children didn't all have to die. She could have left King's Landing and took them back to Casterly Rock to live out their lives way back in season 1. She could have not blown up Tommen's wife, thereby prompting him to end his own life. Dany could have remained in Essos and carried on as a successful liberator and ruler and two of her dragons might not be dead now, but her vision in the House of the Undying dangled the Iron Throne under her nose.

I think Cersei's fourth pregnancy has opened her eyes to the fact that prophecies aren't set in stone and that you establish your own destiny. I think Cersei isn't going to let the remainder of Maggy's prophecy come to pass. Dany, on the other hand, I think she's going to die in pursuit of the prophecy that led her back to Westeros...?

 

[Gary Caelum]

There seems to be some genuine prophecy or fate as well though. Like the Lord of Light's visions. Melisandre said she saw Jon in a vision fighting at Winterfell,

Spoiler

so didn't believe he was dead. Then the Lord of Light brings him back.

That's clearly not prophecies being fulfilled by human behaviour. That's a god of some kind determining events, which is effectively the same as real prophecy.

 

[trash panda]

Spoiler

As far as I know, R'hllor doesn't breathe life back into people unless invoked, specifically by a red priest/ess (i.e. mankind). So, while resurrection is an act made possible by some kind of magic or higher authority, it certainly hasn't been written in this series as divine intervention. It has to be asked, or even begged for, as in the case of Beric, who has been brought back multiple times. Thoros tells us that each time you bring the same person back, it's more difficult. Beric tells us that each time he comes back, he's less of his former self.

It seems like resurrection in this series follows the premise that death is a river and the longer you stay dead, the farther you drift down stream and so the harder it is for you to be brough back. Beric being less of himself each time supports this theory. And in the books, when Catelyn is revived after being dead as a doornail for several days, she's basically a ghost of her former self driven by vengeance. Jon is still a curve ball thrown in the teeth of this theory, because IIRC he was dead for longer than a day before Melisandre brought him back, and he seems like he actually has a better personality now than he did before he croaked. Maybe it's because they kept him on ice?

Oh, wanna know another interesting rabbit-hole of a theory? The Three-Eyed Raven is the Lord of Light. This could explain why R'hllor provides semi-accurate visions of the future??? Could also explain why Bran was the Night King's mortal enemy.

@lithiumkatana17, I am SO surprised you aren't in here right now.

 

[Gary Caelum]

To be honest, in a world where travelling across the continent sometimes takes a month and sometimes takes a few hours, I'm not sure how much they're trying to be consistent with the rules at this point.

 

[trash panda]

Guys,

I want you to stop what you're doing right now and look at the teaser trailer for episode 5. DO IT. Full screen. Pause at 2 seconds.

Spoiler

Two dots flying in the sky. Double confirmed it's not dirt on my screen. Two dragons??

 

[Lex]

Those are birds