Guessing Game: Where will Part 1 end?

[Ite]

It's the first direct encounter with Sephiroth, yes, but it doesn't resolve anything, it doesn't conclude anything set up prior, it only confirms Sephiroth's existence and spurs the group on even more, seeing Cloud's Nemesis and the carnage he left behind. In short, that climax (both story- and gameplay-wise) feels much more like the end of an episode instead of a season. Nothing leads to the upcoming Jenova fight. It comes out of left field. If I remember correctly, Rufus wants to travel to the other continent because of intel of Sephiroth heading there. Nobody knew he was a stowaway. Compare that to Midgar where the Group sets out to rescue Aerith while the big goal is still to stop Shinra from sucking the Planet dry. In the end, they succeed, just not the way they imagined.

As for the Jenova end boss parallel, while cool in its own right, I think it doesn't warrant breaking up the story violating storytelling structure.

Furthermore, the start of part 2 needs to set the mood, set the stage, introduce the villain (not necessarily the ultimate one) and generally introduce the player to what's to come. The Nibelheim Flashback in Kalm does that beautifully. Costa Del Sol? Not at all, unfortunately. It also need the player to know what happened before as to not lose the connection to the story. Starting at Kalm is way less problematic in that sense, since it marks the beginning of a new arc and introduces the new villain. Moreover, the beginning has to set up the ending in some way. Midgar: Shinra sucks the life out of the Planet > President Shinra dies. Reunion: Sephiroth sets out to finish "Mother's" work > Receives the Black Materia, the last big step before succeeding. Meteor: Meteor looms threateningly in the sky > Save the Planet from Meteor (and Sephiroth).


Exactly, and in my opinion, the pacing between the escape from Midgar and Junon is not a good choice for the last 25% of a game. It introduces things that either don't receive closure or have too little room to breath (Chocobos, Enemy Skill, Fort Condor, Sephiroth's Arc, the Reunion etc.) and proceeds on a pretty low note between Kalm and Junon. Even Junon feels much more like just some other major station on the way to the real goal. And it's VERY silly. In general, the segment between Kalm and Junon has a vastly different vibe and mood than the whole Midgar segment. It therefore fits much better in part 2, which gets gradually worse until Northern Crater happens. That's much better pacing in my opinion.

Another argument for part 1 being Midgar only: The trailers have only shown Midgar scenes thus far and not even that much into the Midgar segment (up until the sewers). There's plenty more to reveal. Also, from a project and resource planning standpoint, it's much easier and more efficient to handle Midgar as one unit. Extending part 1 to Junon would implicate the creation of many more new assets and systems which youls be better relegated to the next part which can make better use of that work. I don't know how to describe this properly in brevity. I hope you know what I mean.

Could not have said it better myself. 1000000% agreed.

 

[Theozilla]

It's the first direct encounter with Sephiroth, yes, but it doesn't resolve anything, it doesn't conclude anything set up prior, it only confirms Sephiroth's existence and spurs the group on even more, seeing Cloud's Nemesis and the carnage he left behind. In short, that climax (both story- and gameplay-wise) feels much more like the end of an episode instead of a season. Nothing leads to the upcoming Jenova fight. It comes out of left field. If I remember correctly, Rufus wants to travel to the other continent because of intel of Sephiroth heading there. Nobody knew he was a stowaway. Compare that to Midgar where the Group sets out to rescue Aerith while the big goal is still to stop Shinra from sucking the Planet dry. In the end, they succeed, just not the way they imagined.

As for the Jenova end boss parallel, while cool in its own right, I think it doesn't warrant breaking up the story violating storytelling structure.

Furthermore, the start of part 2 needs to set the mood, set the stage, introduce the villain (not necessarily the ultimate one) and generally introduce the player to what's to come. The Nibelheim Flashback in Kalm does that beautifully. Costa Del Sol? Not at all, unfortunately. It also need the player to know what happened before as to not lose the connection to the story. Starting at Kalm is way less problematic in that sense, since it marks the beginning of a new arc and introduces the new villain. Moreover, the beginning has to set up the ending in some way. Midgar: Shinra sucks the life out of the Planet > President Shinra dies. Reunion: Sephiroth sets out to finish "Mother's" work > Receives the Black Materia, the last big step before succeeding. Meteor: Meteor looms threateningly in the sky > Save the Planet from Meteor (and Sephiroth).


Exactly, and in my opinion, the pacing between the escape from Midgar and Junon is not a good choice for the last 25% of a game. It introduces things that either don't receive closure or have too little room to breath (Chocobos, Enemy Skill, Fort Condor, Sephiroth's Arc, the Reunion etc.) and proceeds on a pretty low note between Kalm and Junon. Even Junon feels much more like just some other major station on the way to the real goal. And it's VERY silly. In general, the segment between Kalm and Junon has a vastly different vibe and mood than the whole Midgar segment. It therefore fits much better in part 2, which gets gradually worse until Northern Crater happens. That's much better pacing in my opinion.

Another argument for part 1 being Midgar only: The trailers have only shown Midgar scenes thus far and not even that much into the Midgar segment (up until the sewers). There's plenty more to reveal. Also, from a project and resource planning standpoint, it's much easier and more efficient to handle Midgar as one unit. Extending part 1 to Junon would implicate the creation of many more new assets and systems which youls be better relegated to the next part which can make better use of that work. I don't know how to describe this properly in brevity. I hope you know what I mean.

I largely agree with your argument for narrative pacing. But while the climax of the Cargo Ship isn't as concluding as leaving Midgar is, I don't think it has zero capacity to do so.

And the main reason why I think ending at the Cargo Ship is a good idea is because I think it's very important for the first part to have the over-world introduced. Letting players get a preview of what the traversable world outside of Midgar is like is very valuable. Especially since unless they make some major changes, there is no possibility for backtracking at the end of the Midgar. And if each part will act like a full triple AAA game, generally there needs to be explorable areas for endgame shenanigans and activities to do (like how Disc 3 was for the OG). Having the Eastern Continent would fulfill that purpose well. Basically all those things it introduces that you think are a negative, I see as positive aspect for the endgame portion of the first part.
Also even if they added more Sephiroth visions to Cloud's glitches during the Midgar scenario, I think SE would still want Sephiroth to make a full proper appearance in the first part, necessitating the Kalm flashback (I don't think they'll move the Nibelheim flashback to the Shinra HQ cells, I think that would mess with the pacing and buildup too much), which I doubt they'll end on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Furthermore, the start of part 2 needs to set the mood, set the stage, introduce the villain (not necessarily the ultimate one) and generally introduce the player to what's to come. The Nibelheim Flashback in Kalm does that beautifully. Costa Del Sol? Not at all, unfortunately. It also need the player to know what happened before as to not lose the connection to the story. Starting at Kalm is way less problematic in that sense, since it marks the beginning of a new arc and introduces the new villain. Moreover, the beginning has to set up the ending in some way. Midgar: Shinra sucks the life out of the Planet > President Shinra dies. Reunion: Sephiroth sets out to finish "Mother's" work > Receives the Black Materia, the last big step before succeeding. Meteor: Meteor looms threateningly in the sky > Save the Planet from Meteor (and Sephiroth).

I don't disagree about the suitability of these arcs. However, in my mind, if that could be said to make a case for anything, it would be for a two-part approach rather than a three-parter. Important to the game as the narrative is, what remains to be contended with is the gameplay itself and sense of scale in the world design.

The bigger Midgar gets, the bigger the rest of the world needs to become -- if for no other reason than to emphasize the scale of a world against that of a city; even if it is the world's largest city.

Just thinking of FFVII's world in terms of a presentation like FFXV's gives us cause already to expect massive expansion. Even if the marshlands near the Chocobo Ranch don't become a proper location unto themselves, they are still going to take more than eight seconds to cross. If the Mythril Mines then expand accordingly from four small screens to, let's say something comparable to FFXV's Balouve Mines -- we've already added a significant amount of content by necessity just by taking stock of the difference between fifth and eighth generation consoles.

This world has to become freakin' enormous, yo.

FFXV avoided these issues with scale primarily by not allowing exploration throughout the big cities (even in the Royal Edition, we don't traverse most of Insomnia). If FFVIIR really wants to go beyond these sort of forced perspective tricks, then the rest of the world will have to expand in such a way that players don't feel the distance from Midgar to the Mythril Mines is less than the distance from Don Corneo's place to Aerith's church.

And if they decide they aren't up to that? Then Midgar definitely isn't comprising the whole first game.

 

[Kain424]

I am VERY curious just what has been decided. I think it's clear there will be a certain level of expansion. It's just a matter of how much. I'm honestly hoping for the whole cannoli, of course. I want more interaction with AVALANCHE. Maybe more missions. I feel like it would be great if the game made you think it was about Cloud, Jesse, Biggs, Wedge, Barret, and Tifa before the plate collapse occurs.

 

[Kain424]

I want a total expansion. Like, remember in ACC when the camera pans into the Northern Crater, and as it moves in, we eventually see a black speck become a helicopter? The scale is HUGE on the Northern Crater. THAT's what I want for everything.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

I largely agree with your argument for narrative pacing. But while the climax of the Cargo Ship isn't as concluding as leaving Midgar is, I don't think it has zero capacity to do so.

Not zero, of course. Just way less capacity to the point of being a detriment in my opinion.

And the main reason why I think ending at the Cargo Ship is a good idea is because I think it's very important for the first part to have the over-world introduced. Letting players get a preview of what the traversable world outside of Midgar is like is very valuable. Especially since unless they make some major changes, there is no possibility for backtracking at the end of the Midgar. And if each part will act like a full triple AAA game, generally there needs to be explorable areas for endgame shenanigans and activities to do (like how Disc 3 was for the OG). Having the Eastern Continent would fulfill that purpose well. Basically all those things it introduces that you think are a negative, I see as positive aspect for the endgame portion of the first part.

There is very much the ability to backtrack in Midgar. At least before they get captured. Sure, it wouldn't make much sense to go back, but ludonarrative dissonance sometimes cannot be avoided. If part one goes up until Jenova Birth, backtracking is only possible up until the parade starts. This alone isn't too bad, however, Midgar as a whole would not be accessible and that would be around 70% of the whole game depending on how much they expand Kalm and beyond. That's much more of a problem in my view.

And again, introducing new stuff and mechanics towards the end of a game which can't be fleshed out or used properly counts as a negative from a design point of view (unless it's a last dungeon specific system or mechanic. That I've seen being executed well).

Also even if they added more Sephiroth visions to Cloud's glitches during the Midgar scenario, I think SE would still want Sephiroth to make a full proper appearance in the first part, necessitating the Kalm flashback (I don't think they'll move the Nibelheim flashback to the Shinra HQ cells, I think that would mess with the pacing and buildup too much), which I doubt they'll end on.

I see your point here. Sephiroth is a big part of FFVII. However, I think this can also be achieved by having him appear several times during Cloud's mental breakdowns as an illusion (like the trailer implies). Of course, he still needs to remain a mystery up until the flashback in Kalm, which I still firmly believe is a great way to start a game, especially in terms of introducing base mechanics in the form of interactive tutorials integrated into the story.

I don't disagree about the suitability of these arcs. However, in my mind, if that could be said to make a case for anything, it would be for a two-part approach rather than a three-parter. Important to the game as the narrative is, what remains to be contended with is the gameplay itself and sense of scale in the world design.

The bigger Midgar gets, the bigger the rest of the world needs to become -- if for no other reason than to emphasize the scale of a world against that of a city; even if it is the world's largest city.

Just thinking of FFVII's world in terms of a presentation like FFXV's gives us cause already to expect massive expansion. Even if the marshlands near the Chocobo Ranch don't become a proper location unto themselves, they are still going to take more than eight seconds to cross. If the Mythril Mines then expand accordingly from four small screens to, let's say something comparable to FFXV's Balouve Mines -- we've already added a significant amount of content by necessity just by taking stock of the difference between fifth and eighth generation consoles.

This world has to become freakin' enormous, yo.

FFXV avoided these issues with scale primarily by not allowing exploration throughout the big cities (even in the Royal Edition, we don't traverse most of Insomnia). If FFVIIR really wants to go beyond these sort of forced perspective tricks, then the rest of the world will have to expand in such a way that players don't feel the distance from Midgar to the Mythril Mines is less than the distance from Don Corneo's place to Aerith's church.

And if they decide they aren't up to that? Then Midgar definitely isn't comprising the whole first game.

That's all true and something we probably can't quite grasp yet, in terms of which sections they expand to which degree.
But despite that, I see the most potential for expansions in Midgar. More parts of each sector to explore (1, 8, 7, 5 and 6), more background stories for the Avalanche members, maybe even new areas or whole new sectors (Casino district anyone?)... Midgar has so much potential and since it's the center piece of the first act, I believe it makes only sense to expand it the most. Practically all other locations (with a few exceptions) are not much more than an area the group passes through on their chase for Sephiroth. While your examples hold up (Midgar Zolom marsh and the Mythril Mines), I think they won't be as heavily expanded upon compared to Midgar. The other part with potential for a huge expansion is the whole Huge Materia quest line, but that one is for part 3 anyway.

Also, in terms of assets and workload, limiting themselves to Midgar only is way more manageable compared to having to create a whole new batch of very different assets and designs for Kalm, the world outside (plains, forests etc.), the Chocobo Farm, the Mythril Mines, Fort Condor and Junon. That's also a reason why I think they will end the first part with the escape from Midgar.

Sure, if they really decide to create only 2 parts, that's a whole other beast entirely (I'm still VERY skeptical about that leak, however).

 

[Kain424]

Yeah, Junon. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that place. But I'm maintaining we'll see through to the end of Midgar. They could then have you work to the next big city, which would be an expanded Junon.

Of course, all of this assumes they even have the ability to pack in the level of density required to make the game bigger. More story, more dialog, more NPCs, more "quests."

 

[Theozilla]

There is very much the ability to backtrack in Midgar. At least before they get captured. Sure, it wouldn't make much sense to go back, but ludonarrative dissonance sometimes cannot be avoided. If part one goes up until Jenova Birth, backtracking is only possible up until the parade starts. This alone isn't too bad, however, Midgar as a whole would not be accessible and that would be around 70% of the whole game depending on how much they expand Kalm and beyond. That's much more of a problem in my view.

And again, introducing new stuff and mechanics towards the end of a game which can't be fleshed out or used properly counts as a negative from a design point of view (unless it's a last dungeon specific system or mechanic. That I've seen being executed well).

Personally I think its possible for the Eastern Continent content can be fleshed out enough to make up for not being able to backtrack to Midgar, and it would be far more natural to do so than trying add stuff endgame stuff to Midgar since the Sector 7 Plate dropping would necessitate completely new zones endgame content.
Also having Chocobos available to use in the first part is something I think the developers would greatly desire considering how much a staple of the FF franchise they are.

I see your point here. Sephiroth is a big part of FFVII. However, I think this can also be achieved by having him appear several times during Cloud's mental breakdowns as an illusion (like the trailer implies). Of course, he still needs to remain a mystery up until the flashback in Kalm, which I still firmly believe is a great way to start a game, especially in terms of introducing base mechanics in the form of interactive tutorials integrated into the story..

Again, purely from a narrative perspective having more limited Sephiroth appearances in Cloud's mental glitches could work, but I just don't see the developers and SE execs being okay with Sephiroth such a small amount of explicit presence in the first installment in regards to an overall game experience, plus the fan satisfaction too.

 

[Kain424]

I think the fans would be fine if Sephiroth's presence was kept faithful to canon.

Though I admit I am excited to see this moment:

 

[Tashasaurous]

Sure, if they really decide to create only 2 parts, that's a whole other beast entirely (I'm still VERY skeptical about that leak, however).

I agree. Doing the Remake in two parts is just not possible, not with how huge it will be...unless they do the game(s) for PS5, that leak has to be fake.

 

[Ariga]

I think the remake can be done quite fine in 2 parts. I don't really believe that leak, though, and the game will more likely be 3 parts. But yeah, 2 parts is very possible for the remake.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

@Theozilla I just son't see much potential to meaningfully expand the sections between Kalm and Junon and without it feeling like tacked-on filler. And regarding Chocobos, I'm kinda liking the idea of illegal Chocobo racing somewhere in the slums (new sector?).

[...] but I just don't see the developers and SE execs being okay with Sephiroth such a small amount of explicit presence in the first installment in regards to an overall game experience, plus the fan satisfaction too.

Maybe the excecutives, but I think the developer and the fans would appreciate a faithful recreation much more, meaning no proper Sephiroth reveal until the Kalm Flashback. He needs to stay this powerful enigma until then. But I see your point in regards to marketing, which I'm already a bit trepidatious (is that even a word?) about.

Edit: Regarding sector 7: I think this can work in the favor of the game. Just don't put any missable items into sector 7 and after the Plate Fall, you can explore its ruins, creating a whole different area/dungeon with new enemies and a very special but depressing atmosphere.

@Kain424 Same! I'm also very curious about how they handle the swamp section before this. Will it be an expansive, moist and foggy area with menacing sounds and shadows, where the Midgar Zolom can shoot out of the ground at anytime? Freaky...

 

[pxp]

trepidatious

I can confirm that this is a word, and apt in the context you were using it ?

 

[Theozilla]

I just son't see much potential to meaningfully expand the sections between Kalm and Junon and without it feeling like tacked-on filler. And regarding Chocobos, I'm kinda liking the idea of illegal Chocobo racing somewhere in the slums (new sector?).

Hmm, personally I just think having the over-world to explore in the first installment is very important and I think those sections could be more naturally expanded than adding new stuff to Midgar, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Kain424]

What do you mean "naturally expanded"?

I'm also very curious about how they handle the swamp section before this. Will it be an expansive, moist and foggy area with menacing sounds and shadows, where the Midgar Zolom can shoot out of the ground at anytime? Freaky...

You're getting me worked up about this. Too. Much. Hype!

 

[Highwind]

Imagine Square's whole marketing campaign focuses on Midgar only to surprise you at the end of the motorcycle chase: "Wait... there's MORE??" Just like 22 years ago...

 

[Kain424]

I would enjoy such a reveal, honestly. But I still think the first part will be entirely Midgar.

 

[Theozilla]

What do you mean "naturally expanded"?

In the sense there is the potential for a lot of additional stuff to add to the Eastern Continent that was lacking in the OG, that doesn't run any risk of interfering with the plot compared to adding stuff in a Midgar only first installment.

 

[Kain424]

It would be nice to see some kind of road system out there in the world.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

I can confirm that this is a word, and apt in the context you were using it ?

Well, I knew the word trepidation, but "trepidatious" was nowhere to be seen in the dictionary I usually use, nor does the spell checker of my browser know this version of the word.
Result: confuzzled

Hmm, personally I just think having the over-world to explore in the first installment is very important and I think those sections could be more naturally expanded than adding new stuff to Midgar, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

That's completely fine by me. I never intended to change your mind or anything. I merely enjoy debating this topic, FFVII or FF or even gaming in general. The multi-part split just so happens to be occupying my mind the most.

Imagine Square's whole marketing campaign focuses on Midgar only to surprise you at the end of the motorcycle chase: "Wait... there's MORE??" Just like 22 years ago...

This idea sound very appealing, despite my views on the story split.

 

[pxp]

@Vyzzuvazzadth

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/trepidatious

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There is very much the ability to backtrack in Midgar. At least before they get captured. Sure, it wouldn't make much sense to go back, but ludonarrative dissonance sometimes cannot be avoided. If part one goes up until Jenova Birth, backtracking is only possible up until the parade starts. This alone isn't too bad, however, Midgar as a whole would not be accessible and that would be around 70% of the whole game depending on how much they expand Kalm and beyond. That's much more of a problem in my view.

Why would backtracking into Midgar be any less of an option if part 1 ended at the cargo ship than if the story ended on the outskirts of the Midgar highways? Either way is making allowance for ludonarrative dissonance.

And again, introducing new stuff and mechanics towards the end of a game which can't be fleshed out or used properly counts as a negative from a design point of view ...

Does that not apply to introducing Red XIII as a playable character when he's going to be involved in two mandatory boss fights soon after? And at that, presumably without a proper option of going off to level him up some before what amounts to the game's final boss?

From a gameplay perspective in particular, that sounds like an awful point to end part 1 regardless of how cleanly it (mostly) works for the narrative up to that juncture. Even from a narrative perspective, though, Red's introduction is going to feel kind of random and disjointed ... along with whatever that now-missing oddity called Jenova was supposed to be making for an annoying loose end ... and Motor Ball then making for a sorely underwhelming final boss.

 

[Kain424]

This assumes the game will end in the exact same manner. It could be a huge blowout, with a massive fight. You get the fight with Rufus, Barret and the others fight another machine. But there's no reason it couldn't be even bigger. If they handle the motorcycle bit right, it could be a blast of an ending, regardless of the motor ball battle. The point is, the Shinra-as-main-villain arc ends pretty well. If they build that right in the beginning, it's a pretty decent end.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Why would backtracking into Midgar be any less of an option if part 1 ended at the cargo ship than if the story ended on the outskirts of the Midgar highways? Either way is making allowance for ludonarrative dissonance.

Because they physically can't enter Midgar without some sort of key (if there are no changes in that regard of course). They're also wanted criminals and Shinra knows they're alive, unlike after the Plate Fall. Returning to Midgar would be a bad idea. Whereas just running back the way you came from (exit the Shinra building and go back down into the slums) only violates the immediate story objective.

Does that not apply to introducing Red XIII as a playable character when he's going to be involved in two mandatory boss fights soon after? And at that, presumably without a proper option of going off to level him up some before what amounts to the game's final boss?

Just make Red XIII a guest character and not playable. Sure, it's not deal, but I'd rather them taking this one liberty as opposed to screwing with storytelling and gameplay pacing. Besides, if Yuffie joins before Junon, it would be the same situation. Unless they delay her appearance to the western continent.

From a gameplay perspective in particular, that sounds like an awful point to end part 1 regardless of how cleanly it (mostly) works for the narrative up to that juncture. Even from a narrative perspective, though, Red's introduction is going to feel kind of random and disjointed ... along with whatever that now-missing oddity called Jenova was supposed to be making for an annoying loose end ... and Motor Ball then making for a sorely underwhelming final boss.

See @Kain424's response. I highly expect them to significantly change up the escape from Midgar. I always liked the idea of Heidegger and Scarlet attacking the group with a mech or even piloting Motorball. The battle against Proud Clod during the raid on Midgar would then be their revenge fight.

 

[Roger]

Because they physically can't enter Midgar without some sort of key (if there are no changes in that regard of course). They're also wanted criminals and Shinra knows they're alive, unlike after the Plate Fall. Returning to Midgar would be a bad idea. Whereas just running back the way you came from (exit the Shinra building and go back down into the slums) only violates the immediate story objective.

There certainly ought to be changes in that regard. Midgar being a closed city with one entrance to the slums that some guy locked up before going on an excavation tour doesn't really hold up with the worldbuilding in any way.

Just make Red XIII a guest character and not playable. Sure, it's not deal, but I'd rather them taking this one liberty as opposed to screwing with storytelling and gameplay pacing. Besides, if Yuffie joins before Junon, it would be the same situation. Unless they delay her appearance to the western continent.

Red XIII not being a playable character is pretty substantial sacrifice in my mind. And we already know Sephiroth will appear in Midgar to Cloud. The emphasis on the next threat will be higher in the Remake.

See @Kain424's response. I highly expect them to significantly change up the escape from Midgar. I always liked the idea of Heidegger and Scarlet attacking the group with a mech or even piloting Motorball. The battle against Proud Clod during the raid on Midgar would then be their revenge fight.

I'd rather not have them go that far. Heidegger and Scarlett shouldn't be that invested yet. The world was ending during the Proud Clod fight.