Hidden/Easily missable cutscenes

[Odysseus]

Yeah, the big issue is that they serve no purpose after you get them beyond a new summon and some master materia you're never going to have a practical use for by the time you actually grind enough to get them. Maybe instead of being that, they could have given the party some ridiculous stat buffs or teach them some powerful new spell. As it is, they give the party something to do for a few hours and give you a shot at some optional items.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Huge Materia will almost definitely be given a different role and benefit in the Remake because yeah. It takes an extremely prohibitively high amount of AP to master every materia in each category to get the applicable single combined mastered materia. I don't think they properly thought out that aspect. They were in the same extreme grind game design framework that created such prizes as turning the Cursed Shield into the Paladin Shield after 255 battles.

That's just absurd.

 

[Tetsujin]

Their plot relevance is the fact they serve as a means of providing Cloud and the others tools necessary to beat Sephiroth. That's what Cid and Cloud state is their motivation for getting them. And yeah, they're optional but they're portrayed as being an important aspect of the fight for the planet, so important that Cloud and the others are willing to fight Shinra tooth-and-nail to obtain them. They don't just sit in the observatory, they give Cloud and the others materia to fight with.

Summons in FFVII-R are optional too, but that doesn't change the fact they're intertwined into the plot itself and the story ultimately assumes you would go after them there as well. It's the same principle at work. Cloud and the others are expected to protect and go after that power of the planet to beat Sephiroth, especially considering the significance summons are known to have now. There's no way they would willingly sacrifice Bahamut Zero to just be a bomb that futilely tries to stop Meteor. That doesn't match up with anything.

Mako, that is relevant to gameplay, not story. Summons in VIIR were at no point intertwined with the actual story either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes it was relevant to the story, because you have to meet Chadley before doing anything else in Sector 7's free day portions and Cloud even runs into the guy in the Shinra Building. Chadley's first encounter is literally pulling Cloud aside to propose being his experiment. They ultimately even gave the dude his own storyline cutscene.

Now, as the player you don't have to do his missions, but that's the same thing as you not having to do any of the errands as a Mercenary or doing anything to help the people in Sector 5 or 7 slums either. That's an option, but that doesn't mean it's not part of the overall presented story of FFVII. It may not be part of the main plot of Sephiroth, but it's still part of the total story and a relevant element that reflects what goes on in that world and Cloud's experience in it. Just because a player can choose to ignore it or skip it doesn't mean it's weight and intent is somehow nullified. It's relevant for what it is. The summons are part of the culture of the Cetra with Shiva being the one that helped ultimately heal the Northern Continent after Jenova impacted there hundreds of years ago. That's definitely part of the story and lore of the world, not something that's just there to be ignored or skipped.

 

[Tetsujin]

I forgot about the Shiva lore, I guess I was more thinking of them having any active roles in the present day plot
On the other stuff I'll just have to disagree.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It didn't damage Meteor.

It cosmetically altered Meteor's appearance. As shown in the cutscene, Meteor just kept coming, and simply re-built itself with energy after the explosion. The rocket's collision didn't even alter it's course. If physics and astrodynamics were to be believed at work, Meteor's trajectory should've been altered by such a massive collision of explosive force.

Yet Meteor stayed directly on target for Midgar. The Rocket ultimately did nothing. And that's why it's magic. Meteor was never going to be destroyed by a physical bomb of any sort. The energy released by just using Materia as an explosive force is no different than burning Mako as fuel. That's not what it's really meant to be used for, and not a true manifestation of it's magic potential. That's just burning it up as a catalyst/fuel. That's a waste, not magic.

Not for nothing, but Vincent does destroy Azul's barrier with a rocket launcher.

And if the Sister Ray was capable of breaking Sephiroth's barrier, then it stands to reason funneling raw magical energy through conventional weaponry doesn't negate any capacity to overcome magical targets.

For that matter, we don't have conclusive evidence one way or another as to whether utilizing mako in explosives produces a purely conventional explosion or one tinged with magical properties. This is a silly hill to die on.

The only question worth pondering in the Meteor situation is whether Sephiroth could recast. He didn't put his barrier back up, so maybe it's not that simple. Or maybe at that point he knew Cloud had survived and chose to let him come to him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that's not really an applicable comparison. Overcoming magical targets is always possible, but Meteor isn't simply a manifested defensive wall, it's a unique planetary invoked destructive spell. It's a magical force, projected by the planet itself, to draw in planetoids, compress them together, and then collide with it. The fact that the Meteor seemingly willed itself back together and didn't even change trajectory after being hit head-on with a rocket that size is the clearest evidence that it's not operating within the rules of normal physics. It's the same magic principle behind Sin being immortal and unstoppable when confronted with conventional weaponry. Sure, a machina weapon with the highest necessary energy output could theoretically damage and pierce Sin's armor and eventually "kill" it with enough shots....

But Sin is a magical beast. An extremely powerful aeon. Any damage or harm it suffers will simply regenerate. Sin will just use its magical gravitational energy to reform itself with spirit energy and continue on its rampage. Nothing can truly kill it unless the thing within it constantly invoking its spell, is killed as well. The same applies to Meteor and the spell Holy. Blowing up Meteor is pointless because the magic that's behind it won't be undone by simple power. It'll just reform itself and continue its fated course.

And given the fact Sephiroth was within the core of the planet, simply willing Holy from emerging, I don't think it'd have been any sort of problem for him to project another barrier if he wanted to. But at that point, he realized who was coming and figured he'd face them. He wanted that fight.

Also we actually do know what mako weaponry is capable of through the firing of the Sister Ray. The Rufus and Scarlet state it fires shells filled with concentrated mako energy. That payload can create either a powerful ballistic shell capable of tearing straight through a Weapon's whole body, or an explosive mako artillery shell that can blow off a Weapon's head entirely. The mako simply provides raw energy and power, just like it does as an energy source. The magic is traded for pure energy, since the mako is used as a payload and fuel for propulsion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Overcoming magical targets is always possible, but Meteor isn't simply a manifested defensive wall, it's a unique planetary invoked destructive spell.

Okay, and Azul's barrier was a planetary invoked defensive spell, just like Sephiroth's.

So maybe Shin-Ra should have fired the Sister Ray at Meteor.

Also we actually do know what mako weaponry is capable of through the firing of the Sister Ray. The Rufus and Scarlet state it fires shells filled with concentrated mako energy. That payload can create either a powerful ballistic shell capable of tearing straight through a Weapon's whole body, or an explosive mako artillery shell that can blow off a Weapon's head entirely. The mako simply provides raw energy and power, just like it does as an energy source. The magic is traded for pure energy, since the mako is used as a payload and fuel for propulsion.

I still say you don't have any solid evidence for this, and I definitely wouldn't cite the Sister Ray of all things as pointing to that claim. Whatever Scarlet's description of what to expect from the Sister Ray, we see a beam of energy that breaks an enormous magical barrier.

Hell, how does insisting the Sister Ray utilized that energy as a purely conventional weapon help your claim at all since it destroys said enormous magical barrier? And why was Hojo planning to fire the cannon at the crater a second time to give Sephiroth a power-up?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean that's like comparing Valefor to Sin.

A "Wall" spell isn't on par with the most powerful attack spell we ever see. There are clear limits to conventional weaponry when compared to things created by the planet's spirit energy. This is like Operation Mi'hen trying to brute force victory with technology. Meteor simply isn't gonna disintegrate due to the fact it's got some sort of gravity magic perpetually holding it together and keeping it from breaking.

I was just merely citing the example of how Mako weaponry is shown to be used. It's not so much "magical" as it is powerful. We see what it does. And while it may look like a beam of energy, the story says it fires shells filled and propelled by that energy. Hojo increased the output of the reactors and intended to have it spew out all the Mako energy at once so it would just feed Sephiroth that energy but as a gun it fires shells.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I only learned that there was a fail state a couple years ago on TLS, haha.

I actually got the red submarine on my first playthrough.

 

[Fade]

A "Wall" spell isn't on par with the most powerful attack spell we ever see. There are clear limits to conventional weaponry when compared to things created by the planet's spirit energy. This is like Operation Mi'hen trying to brute force victory with technology. Meteor simply isn't gonna disintegrate due to the fact it's got some sort of gravity magic perpetually holding it together and keeping it from breaking.

I think you guys are debating a technicality, it's just that Makoeyes keeps conflating an instance of the spell with the ability to re-cast it. You've actually both pointed out that conventional weaponry absolutely could disperse both Sin and Meteor, given an appropriate yield. The core problem is that its caster remains alive to undo the damage. Sin is actually a good comparison, because the airship demonstrates that, actually, Operation Mi'hen would've gone just fine had the technology been enough to actually obliterate Sin root and stem. Drop Sin in our world and it wouldn't last five minutes. They just didn't have that level of firepower. In Meteor's case; Sin's caster is literally inside the spell, whereas Sephiroth is not.

So, all told, you have to give Shinra credit for trying, just like the Crusaders in Operation Mi'hen. And when you don't have any real plan B, sabotaging an Operation Mi'hen equivalent when you don't even know for sure that it will fail is kind of a dick move on Avalanche's part. In both cases, convential methods could well have instituted a temporary reprieve. After all, Operation Mi'hen theoratically could've destroyed Sin forever, had the power been there.

I disagree with the idea that there's a fundamental disconnect between magic and conventional weaponry. If anything, Final Fantasy pretty much always eschews that gap, as I just explored. Conventional weapons blow Sin's arms off, they destroys Sephiroth's barrier, the Ragnarok sexually penetrates the Lunatic Pandora's shield, the fall of Bahamut threatens Rabanastre's paling etc etc. I mean, Final Fantasy VII's entire planet is basically a magic rock just like Meteor. We're told at length that it can be threatened by physical wounds but can restore itself--to a point. In other words, so long as its "caster" (in this case, the Lifestream itself) survives.

Sephiroth: Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury. ...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet?

[snip]

Aerith: An injury powerful enough to destroy the Planet?

TL;DR:
Can mundane weapons kill a big magic? Yes, absolutely, plenty of evidence.
Will big magic stay gone forever? Highly situational.
Do Shinra get brownie points for at least trying? Probably.

 

[Sprites]

I guess Ifalna and Gast's cutscenes are easily missable if you dont know you can interact with the video system in their house in Icicle Inn

 

[Tetsujin]

I guess Ifalna and Gast's cutscenes are easily missable if you dont know you can interact with the video system in their house in Icicle Inn

Yeah I definitely missed those the first few times!

 

[NejXVII]

The summons are part of the culture of the Cetra with Shiva being the one that helped ultimately heal the Northern Continent after Jenova impacted there hundreds of years ago.

Where is this bit of lore about Shiva stated? I don't remember it...

 

[Shademp]

@NejXVII

Remake lore. It's not present in pre-Remake material.

Spoiler: REMAKE SPOILERS

See it here and here.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I guess Ifalna and Gast's cutscenes are easily missable if you dont know you can interact with the video system in their house in Icicle Inn

I already knew about it thanks to the Brady Games strategy guide. Good thing Brady Games didn't spoil Gast's true connection to Ifalna and Aerith.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I already knew about it thanks to the Brady Games strategy guide. Good thing Brady Games didn't spoil Gast's true connection to Ifalna and Aerith.

Why, did it spoil something else?

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

Why, did it spoil something else?

It spoiled Aerith's death. Then again, so did everyone I knew on the schoolyard.

 

[Odysseus]

It spoiled Aerith's death. Then again, so did everyone I knew on the schoolyard.

This is what you get for getting the prima guide instead of the versus guide.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

This is what you get for getting the prima guide instead of the versus guide.

I bought the Brady Games guide, not the Prima one. And thank Squaresoft themselves for advertising the Brady Games guide in the damn instruction manual.