I doubt that, because they specifically have stated they use the Ultimanias and guide books as references to keep up the story details they write in their scenarios. They just chose not to. They even said that was the case for Lucrecia in Dirge of Cerberus.
I doubt that, because they specifically have stated they use the Ultimanias and guide books as references to keep up the story details they write in their scenarios. They just chose not to. They even said that was the case for Lucrecia in Dirge of Cerberus.
I'll admit, it took me a couple viewings of the cutscenes to grasp what was going on- whether it was dreaming vs reality.
My opinion is this:
It's hard to say what Vincent knows (consciously or subconsciously), because it's hard to say where he was alive, dead, unconscious, etc. It's hard to say what he could sense through the glass tube. And I'd assume that for any time he was Chaos, he wouldn't remember anything.
Assuming he was alive but unconscious for some of the stuff, it's entirely possible that he subconsciously knows about these things, and the dreams are his subconscious memories coming back. Possibly looking way too into it, but I thought of it as, it was a pretty traumatic experience for him, physically and mentally. So maybe because of that, he forgot about it.
As far as Lucrecia is concerned:
The cave had a different appearance in FF7, *maybe* she appeared to be outside the crystal simply due to technical issues: if she was inside it, it might be hard to see her in that perspective?
With the Hojo thing, has anyone ever considered the fact that maybe she went with him because of the whole power aspect? It was an opportunity to do something that hadn't been done before, create a superhuman. Maybe she thought it would give her credibility as a scientist. Maybe she thought, "I'll go down in history for this experiment" (boy did she ever, for all the wrong reasons!).
General thoughts:
I wish they'd discuss Professor Gast in more detail. He's a missing piece of the puzzle.
Vincent's past is really, really hard to decipher without having any sense of timeframe.
It annoys me how Square kind of re-invents things as it pleases. DOC was confusing and the characters were not portrayed all that well. I thought Vincent's flashbacks in FF7 were interesting to speculate on... and I thought DOC would really be awesome. In some ways it was, but in others it just seemed to run away on all these invented tangents. If anything, it created just as many questions as it answered, for example:
I'd like to know what the deal was between Grimoire and Lucrecia. She just studied with him?
When Grimoire dies, he tells Lu to tell his son (Vincent) something
, but that makes no sense considering Vincent doesn't know her.
How far did Vincent and Lucrecia's relationship go? What's the story with the proposal thing? There's a scene in FF7 that seems to confirm this, but then DOC doesn't acknowledge it whatsoever. Their relationship in DOC seems very awkward... and then that raises the question of, what's real vs dreams?
About FFVII and DOC, couldn't Lucrecia seal herself inside the Crystal after her meeting with Vincent?
She seemed to hope that Sephiroth would still be alive, regardless of the rumours of his death.
Maybe she was hoping to reunite with her son, since she didn't believe the rumours about Sephiroth's death, due to Jenova's resillience, as she pointed out.
But when Vincent told her that Sephiroth was dead, she had her hope shattered and, since she couldn't die easily, she decided to seal herself in the Crystal.
The cave had a different appearance in FF7, *maybe* she appeared to be outside the crystal simply due to technical issues: if she was inside it, it might be hard to see her in that perspective?
That's the easy answer, but she speaks clearly and moves in FF7. In the DoC crystal, she doesn't seem able to speak clearly, much less move at all.
Smaddy said:
With the Hojo thing, has anyone ever considered the fact that maybe she went with him because of the whole power aspect? It was an opportunity to do something that hadn't been done before, create a superhuman. Maybe she thought it would give her credibility as a scientist. Maybe she thought, "I'll go down in history for this experiment" (boy did she ever, for all the wrong reasons!).
That's the route I've usually gone in fanfiction, and it makes sense to me, but this article says she did it out of pity. (Well, technically it says "maternal love," but when you marry someone because you feel a motherly need to "protect" them from their own inferiority complex, I believe that's better labeled "pity fuck.")
It would be great if we could just look at the content and draw our own logical conclusions from what we're presented, but they come out and say so much that seems to just directly contradict what we see that logic is pretty tenuous.
The proposal, for example. I never even thought that scene you mentioned was a proposal. I don't know why people said he was obviously giving her something or out of what ass they pulled the idea of a proposal from. They're walking, holding hands, they stop at the gate, she pulls her hands away from him and runs away. They could have been talking about ANYTHING that would have been emotional to Lucrecia. My first impression was that he was telling her how he felt. He is not down on one knee, he is not holding anything out to her. He is holding her hands.
Logically, there was no proposal. But then they come out and say there was a proposal (although that scene wasn't it anyway). Okay, so, even though Vincent was extremely awkward and shy around Lucrecia, and even though there's no good indication of their relationship ever getting to the point where a marriage proposal would be appropriate, and even though there is never any hint of a proposal occurring, now you're telling us he asked her to marry him.
And we were supposed to deduce that how?
The same could be said for Hojo and Lucrecia's marriage. It's completely Word of God, and how are we expected to use logic and content to draw conclusions when the Word of God keeps contradicting what the content itself implies (or even makes explicit!)?
Smaddy said:
I'd like to know what the deal was between Grimoire and Lucrecia. She just studied with him?
When Grimoire dies, he tells Lu to tell his son (Vincent) something
, but that makes no sense considering Vincent doesn't know her.
I've actually touched on that in fanfiction, too, as a means of explaining why Lucrecia wanted to get close to Vincent despite all her reasons for wanting to stay away. But it doesn't strike me odd that Grimoire would ask that of her, given what he's asking and the circumstances.
He says, "Tell my son I'm sorry," as he's drawing his last breath, and she's the only one present. It's not like he had an option of who to ask to pass the message along, and if the message was important to him, I don't think he or anyone would care who he was asking. If he was dying and a stranger was there, it wouldn't even seem odd for him to say to the stranger, "Tell my son I'm sorry." I'm sure it's happened before. Out of respect for the dead, you go and find the guy's son, you explain who you are and that you were there when his father passed away, and you tell the son what the father asked you to tell him with his dying breath, if you have any decency.
Of course the fact that Lucrecia did not do it is another interesting topic entirely. In my aforementioned fanfiction, it was that she felt too guilty about it to even bring the topic up, and also felt that this was far too intimate a thing that Grimoire had asked of her considering she didn't know Vincent at all, so she made it sort of her mission to get to know him. Not out of the question for her actual canon motives, I think. (Why else would she try to befriend Vincent?)
D&D said:
About FFVII and DOC, couldn't Lucrecia seal herself inside the Crystal after her meeting with Vincent?
She seemed to hope that Sephiroth would still be alive, regardless of the rumours of his death.
Maybe she was hoping to reunite with her son, since she didn't believe the rumours about Sephiroth's death, due to Jenova's resillience, as she pointed out. But when Vincent told her that Sephiroth was dead, she had her hope shattered and, since she couldn't die easily, she decided to seal herself in the Crystal.
Sound logic to me. But you know what SE likes to do with sound logic.
------------------------------------
I also got thinking this morning about the whole thing about Hojo knowing where she was and being the one to tell her that Sephiroth died, and the doujinshi Pieta.
I have mentioned Pieta and its connection to new canon before, on the VinLu club thread. Please read this single post first:
(I'll quote it if you cba, but it's got embedded images: )
I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, or if it's relevent to much, but I think it's interesting.
Take a look at this—
This is a page from the doujinshi Pieta by Hiromichi Asoh. I don't think it lists a page with copyright info and the year on it like American books do—are they even copyrighted anyway?—but I've owned it for years. I think it was the first doujin that I bought. This was scanned ages ago, and someone was kind enough to provide me with an English translation of the dialogue that I Photoshooped in in place of the Japanese text. The translation itself was also given to me years ago (by Immortal Mint), and years before Dirge of Cerberus.
This is the first instance I've seen of Lucrecia actually witnessing what happened to Vincent. If you remember the FF7 flashback, she collapsed and then Vincent ran in to confront Hojo, so most people assume that was when she "died" and she wouldn't have been aware of what happened to anyone after that.
But more interesting is, of course, the "I'm so sorry," and the fact that she says it more than once. There's also a panel on the previous page that appears in Dirge:
Note the shot of the chandeleir in the last panel.
^ This is a random image that we're shown while Hojo goes on his Evil Mad Scientist Monologue after shooting Vincent, the ceiling above their heads when it happens. The image of them standing beneath it from that angle never appears, but we do see Vincent running in from his own POV and approach Hojo, stopping approximately that far from him and likely displaying the same body language seen here. Hojo, at least, seems to be displaying the same body language, minus the lolobvious gun in his hand.
I am 99% sure I owned this doujinshi (as in I physically own a copy of the book) before Advent Children was announced. The translation was given to me before Dirge of Cerberus was released. I don't know if it was before 2005, which I believe is when someone said the UO was published, but I definitely owned the doujinshi before 2005 and can scan it again with the Japanese text if necessary.
I always thought it was odd that the author had Hojo come to her and give her this seemingly random update, because I always assumed Hojo was half the thing she was hiding from (ShinRa being the other half). But ah well, fanfiction.
Also consider the second page. He tells her she is beautiful forever. Also pretty much out of the blue there. I interpreted as salt in the wound— "Oh, hey, your son's dead, but you're still pretty, right?" —especially since Hojo is so casual about Sephiroth's death. And her tear and then the following panel with the shatting ice/crystal/floor/whatever representing her emotions indicating that she couldn't care less about the "bright side," and even though many women wish they could be young and attractive forever, she has such a great price to pay for it that it just isn't worth it at all. It's totally empty.
If he's referring to "hideous abnormalities" that she's supposed to have developed, well, that's a little more in context.
...since the leftover [remaining] information for her in FF7 was not found, it was really hard to recreate her. So we relied on guidebooks’ tiny little portraits, and the many drawings that fans did of her.
If they lost her FF7 info, where did they get the info they wrote about her in Vincent's timeline in the UO? It could have been invented all over again after FF7— and after Pieta. Nomura also admits that fan works had an influence on the new material regarding Lucrecia.
That actually would make sense if she sealed herself in the crystal after finding out Sephiroth is dead. That might have been her last hope, to meet him after all that time and form some sort of relationship. That would be interesting to say the least...
That's the route I've usually gone in fanfiction, and it makes sense to me, but this article says she did it out of pity. (Well, technically it says "maternal love," but when you marry someone because you feel a motherly need to "protect" them from their own inferiority complex, I believe that's better labeled "pity fuck.")
If it was a pity thing, they did a terrible job of depicting that. What Square showed us: Hojo's a cold jerk focused entirely on science. He's mostly pretty rude and cold to Lu as well. What they did show, to me, was that Hojo and Lu were interested in this experiment -- probably with different intentions and ideas of the outcome -- and they were going to do that for science.
The proposal, for example. I never even thought that scene you mentioned was a proposal. I don't know why people said he was obviously giving her something or out of what ass they pulled the idea of a proposal from. They're walking, holding hands, they stop at the gate, she pulls her hands away from him and runs away. They could have been talking about ANYTHING that would have been emotional to Lucrecia. My first impression was that he was telling her how he felt. He is not down on one knee, he is not holding anything out to her. He is holding her hands.
I don't 100% think it's a proposal, but it's possible. When I originally played FF7 I thought they were just talking. When I'd heard, years later, that he proposed, I associated that scene with a proposal. It's more than likely not it. I wish they'd have done that scene in DOC just to clarify as to what it was. (see edit below)
Logically, there was no proposal. But then they come out and say there was a proposal (although that scene wasn't it anyway). Okay, so, even though Vincent was extremely awkward and shy around Lucrecia, and even though there's no good indication of their relationship ever getting to the point where a marriage proposal would be appropriate, and even though there is never any hint of a proposal occurring, now you're telling us he asked her to marry him.
Again, if this was the case (Vincent asked Lu to marry him), Square did a crappy job depicting it. I totally agree with what you said here. I don't like how he's showed as a young man at all, all airheaded and awkward. He comes across as almost an idiot. That being said, the way his character is showed, I have a hard time believing he even told her how he felt and that he loved her, let alone asking her to marry him. And yeah, the way it's showed in DOC, it doesn't even seem like they had any kind of relationship outside of the work environment. The closest thing is the picnic on the hill, but even then... it's not like it's cozy or romantic like they were lovers.
The same could be said for Hojo and Lucrecia's marriage. It's completely Word of God, and how are we expected to use logic and content to draw conclusions when the Word of God keeps contradicting what the content itself implies (or even makes explicit!)?
Honestly, I almost wonder if the whole "they were married" thing was made up just because they had a child together. I don't want to go too far into a tangent (but I probably will lol)... it happened approx 30 years before FF7, and maybe the world's view on unwed women having children wasn't so great.
But it doesn't strike me odd that Grimoire would ask that of her, given what he's asking and the circumstances.
He says, "Tell my son I'm sorry," as he's drawing his last breath, and she's the only one present. It's not like he had an option of who to ask to pass the message along, and if the message was important to him, I don't think he or anyone would care who he was asking. If he was dying and a stranger was there, it wouldn't even seem odd for him to say to the stranger, "Tell my son I'm sorry." I'm sure it's happened before. Out of respect for the dead, you go and find the guy's son, you explain who you are and that you were there when his father passed away, and you tell the son what the father asked you to tell him with his dying breath, if you have any decency.
Of course the fact that Lucrecia did not do it is another interesting topic entirely. In my aforementioned fanfiction, it was that she felt too guilty about it to even bring the topic up, and also felt that this was far too intimate a thing that Grimoire had asked of her considering she didn't know Vincent at all, so she made it sort of her mission to get to know him. Not out of the question for her actual canon motives, I think. (Why else would she try to befriend Vincent?)
That's an interesting point as to why she might be interested in him. And now I'm probably reading too into things but is there any thought that maybe part of her "I'm sorry"s in DOC was from what Grimoire said to her? (I know why else she was sorry, I'm just bringing up something else in addition to that.)
-----
It's times like this I wish they had an OTWTAS for Vincent (lol @ Vincent smiling), or had done a better job with the storyline for DOC. It was really unclear to begin with, then they added/changed 100 things to make it even more confusing in DOC.
They need to talk more about Grimoire, Dr Gast, and Hojo. The Jenova Project (Gast & Hojo) are pretty crucial to the core storyline (they're the reasons for the FF7 happening). Do they go into that at all in the prequels to FF7? I never really looked at those.
(EDIT) I figured out what that scene is. It's Lucrecia telling Vincent
about what happened with his father!
It is in DOC, I had just forgotten about it and not made the connection. So the proposal theory really has zero to back it up with.
Honestly, I almost wonder if the whole "they were married" thing was made up just because they had a child together. I don't want to go too far into a tangent (but I probably will lol)... it happened approx 30 years before FF7, and maybe the world's view on unwed women having children wasn't so great.
That was taken to be likely for a long time also, although it is worth pointing out that they have pointedly declined to comment on whether or not
Gillian and Hollander
were married (after the interviewer compared their situation to that of Hojo and Lucrecia), and they did the same thing about a year earlier.
Smaddy said:
That's an interesting point as to why she might be interested in him. And now I'm probably reading too into things but is there any thought that maybe part of her "I'm sorry"s in DOC was from what Grimoire said to her? (I know why else she was sorry, I'm just bringing up something else in addition to that.)
It could be, but she does say "I'm so sorry." I'm not sure if the Japanese phrase for it is a little less explicit about who is actually sorry.
Smaddy said:
It's times like this I wish they had an OTWTAS for Vincent (lol @ Vincent smiling), or had done a better job with the storyline for DOC. It was really unclear to begin with, then they added/changed 100 things to make it even more confusing in DOC.
They need to talk more about Grimoire, Dr Gast, and Hojo. The Jenova Project (Gast & Hojo) are pretty crucial to the core storyline (they're the reasons for the FF7 happening). Do they go into that at all in the prequels to FF7? I never really looked at those.
Vincent gets some time in Case of Nanaki but it doesn't go into his past at all. Actually it rather refreshingly focuses on his present, though it's between FF7 and AC, so he's not as far along in his development as he was in DoC.
I'd like to see the post-DoC Vincent, personally. But I guess that's why I'm writing about him.
Smaddy said:
So the proposal theory really has zero to back it up with.
If they lost her FF7 info, where did they get the info they wrote about her in Vincent's timeline in the UO? It could have been invented all over again after FF7— and after Pieta. Nomura also admits that fan works had an influence on the new material regarding Lucrecia.
I think, given that he goes on to talk about images in strategy guides and fanart, he could just be referring to concept art. (The same thing happened with Garland from FFI for Dissidia.) The Ultimania and its information came out with AC, so Square should have been aware of it while they were making DC.
I think given that she's saying it, it's her who is sorry. It seems strange to be saying it the way she does if it's supposed to be relaying it as a message.
Even if they didn't lose the original info on Lucrecia and just lost her appearance, they obviously made up a significant amount of her story for DoC. Grimoire never existed before then, right? Or do you think they had extraneous notes on him that just never surfaced in FF7 in any way like they originally had notes on Yuffie's mother? I'm inclined to believe he was completely invented post-FF7.
Also, how could the similarities between aspects of the new compilation and Pieta be explained if SE had the info first? Do you think it's pure coincidence, or do you think the author of Pieta had access to this info somehow while the rest of us were oblivious to it?
Anyone mind if I put this translation on the front page? Also, our "Exclusive Translations" link list doesn't even have a category for the UO. (Or Dirge of Cerberus, for that matter, which always bothered me when posting Souya's translations.) Could we get a "Miscellaneous" on there maybe?
I still can't believe Ryu Kaze NEVER mentioned ANYTHING like this in his FAQ. =|
If you like and can wait a bit, I can see if I have the rest done (or if not, do it). I've got a lot of stuff I've done from the UO, but I did lose some of it which might have included Vincent's stuff.
I have got to say one thing about Lucrecia and that is BITCH!!! I hate her she was aware that what was going on. I do not care what anyone says she did not care what she was doing to Sephiroth. I mean she is WORSE than Hojo he is completly insane and does not have a humane bone in his body whereas she seems seen and morally right...
Did Lucrecia's appearance change or not? One thing I never understood from Doc is Lucrecia dead or not? Lastly what stupid bitch picks Vincent over that insane, no personality whatsoever, ugly fucker Hojo? Stupid cow.
I have got to say one thing about Lucrecia and that is BITCH!!! I hate her she was aware that what was going on. I do not care what anyone says she did not care what she was doing to Sephiroth. I mean she is WORSE than Hojo he is completly insane and does not have a humane bone in his body whereas she seems seen and morally right...
Did Lucrecia's appearance change or not? One thing I never understood from Doc is Lucrecia dead or not? Lastly what stupid bitch picks Vincent over that insane, no personality whatsoever, ugly fucker Hojo? Stupid cow.
Well thank you for your educated, thoughtful response to the topic at hand. That was not irrelevent or smacking of any kind of prejudice or complete ignorance of the canon materials whatsoever. It completely answered any and all quandaries anyone might have ever had about any of the points raised in this thread at any point in the past, present, or future, and furthermore it touched upon brand new ideas that no one has ever mentioned before and that have certainly not already been raged to the brink of exhaustion by every other 13 year old fantard on YouTube--routinely--in response to so much as a glimpse of a strand of Lucrecia's ponytail.
Well thank you for your educated, thoughtful response to the topic at hand. That was not irrelevent or smacking of any kind of prejudice or complete ignorance of the canon materials whatsoever. It completely answered any and all quandaries anyone might have ever had about any of the points raised in this thread at any point in the past, present, or future, and furthermore it touched upon brand new ideas that no one has ever mentioned before and that have certainly not already been raged to the brink of exhaustion by every other 13 year old fantard on YouTube--routinely--in response to so much as a glimpse of a strand of Lucrecia's ponytail.
Why have you got annoyed about my post? True it was not the most mature replies but I was in one of thise moods yesterday. But with DoC and FFVII I never saw anything likeable about Lucrecia she willingly gave her body and unborn child to an experiment that no one knew what the consequences would be. Fair enough if you want to be an experiment that is fine with me but don't put an innocent baby through it.
Anyway there was more I wanted to say but cannot remember at the moment. So am of to stab myself.
When you have something to contribute to the topic, let us know. If you've forgotten what the topic is, try reading the first page again.
If you only want to express your hatred for a character involved in the topic, go make your own thread about it. Or a diary.
Now stop derailing my thread. ><
Actually, I don't suppose the translation could be split from my original thread? As much as that topic fascinates me, it is a separate topic and I'd like both to have their place.
"
In my aforementioned fanfiction, it was that she felt too guilty about it to even bring the topic up, and also felt that this was far too intimate a thing that Grimoire had asked of her considering she didn't know Vincent at all, so she made it sort of her mission to get to know him. Not out of the question for her actual canon motives, I think. (Why else would she try to befriend Vincent?)
